What kind of a standard would you need to be at for A4 racing?

terrydel

I might try my hand at a couple of races next summer, just to see where I stand.
I'd be looking for hilly races because that is what suits me, I'm not super fast on the flats as I'm small (5'8'' <11 stone) but I climb pretty well.
I don't use strava or any of those so other than how I go on sportives, I've no real way of gauging where I'm at, other than to say I generally overtake 90% of the people in front of me on any of the climbs on the likes of the W200, but they'd often get me on the flats or downhills.
And if I was to race, I'd in all likelihood be doing it on my Giant Defy 1, its a good bike I think but obviously nothing special compared to what most have these days. No plans to change til at least spring/summer 2018.
Can anyone provide some real-world numbers or something that would give me an idea whether I'd be wasting my time and setting myself up for humiliation?!

lennymc

30kph for an hour over rollingish terrain is said to be a good indicator.
There is no humiliation, only not trying it

coach22

Go for it and don't worry about the bike. It won't hold you back. The standard is quiet varied from very good to bad. Usually the good people get upgraded early so the standard drops a bit throughout the year

splanagan22

Started a4 this year myself. Thought I was ok with 30avg speed in training spins of 70-100k. First race got dropped after 30k and avg speed was 38kmh, Finished in the bunch in old castle 2 weeks ago and avg over 60k was 41kmh. It's tough getting started but the trill is second to none. Did league racing all summer which helped big time.

terrydel

splanagan22 wrote: »

Started a4 this year myself. Thought I was ok with 30avg speed in training spins of 70-100k. First race got dropped after 30k and avg speed was 38kmh, Finished in the bunch in old castle 2 weeks ago and avg over 60k was 41kmh. It's tough getting started but the trill is second to none. Did league racing all summer which helped big time.

Solo training spins? All my training is generally very hilly, eg I'll do 40-50k tomoro evening with approx. 700m of climbing, and will look to average at least 25kmph.

JK.BMC

terrydel wrote: »

Solo training spins? All my training is generally very hilly, eg I'll do 40-50k tomoro evening with approx. 700m of climbing, and will look to average at least 25kmph.

To race at A4 or indeed any level, you would need to vary your training to replicate the demands of the particular races in question.

A simple thing to bear in mind is how you are going to accelerate for 6-10 seconds out of a corner (there are corners/junctions on every single race) if most of your cycling training involves going up and down hills repeatedly (there isn't a race in Ireland with the profile of your above training spin)

Generally if you want to succeed, you will. Give it a go whatever you do. Ditch the notion that you are Nairo Quintana and instead think logically about what you need to do to race with your peers in a fast paced bunch on Irish roads.

As mentioned above the only regret will be on not trying.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

To race at A4 or indeed any level, you would need to vary your training to replicate the demands of the particular races in question.

A simple thing to bear in mind is how you are going to accelerate for 6-10 seconds out of a corner (there are corners/junctions on every single race) if most of your cycling training involves going up and down hills repeatedly (there isn't a race in Ireland with the profile of your above training spin)

Generally if you want to succeed, you will. Give it a go whatever you do. Ditch the notion that you are Nairo Quintana and instead think logically about what you need to do to race with your peers in a fast paced bunch on Irish roads.

As mentioned above the only regret will be on not trying.

Good advice. no notions here, trust me!
What kind of distance/profile is a typical race?

Koobcam

Not sure if you are a member of a club, but joining a club and taking part in local club league races might be a good way to start racing-depends on whether or not this is an option open to you. The league races are a good way to learn some racing skills (positioning in the bunch, cornering, riding in a paceline, covering moves, etc, etc). You might as well give the A4 a go anyway, and if you're planning on racing next season, there are still plenty of sportives on the calendar, which are good for practising riding in a bunch.

JK.BMC

terrydel wrote: »

Good advice. no notions here, trust me!
What kind of distance/profile is a typical race?

A4 open race = 50-80km approx; mixed terrain.

If you can't a)sprint b)ride close to others c)put out strong 3-5 minute efforts, you are unlikely to survive in a bunch. Lots of super 'climbers' on strava, for example, are nowhere to be seen in real races.

But if you can manage b) above, then you should be able to get started at some level.

tuxy

I also want to race a4 next year, here's my plan.
Join a club that is known to encourages its members to race. Go on as many club spins as I can over the winter along with some solo spins to get my base kilometers in. Race in some club leagues. Once I have this done I should have a very good idea of what's required before entering my first a4 race.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

A4 open race = 50-80km approx; mixed terrain.

If you can't a)sprint b)ride close to others c)put out strong 3-5 minute efforts, you are unlikely to survive in a bunch. Lots of super 'climbers' on strava, for example, are nowhere to be seen in real races.

But if you can manage b) above, then you should be able to get started at some level.

I wouldn't be aiming to win, just not make a show of myself.
I think training for short bursts would be no problem, just requires actually doing it really.
I'd see myself as comfortable at speed and close to others, obviously I'm no expert but I'm used to speed and would have good reactions as I've driven bikes for years, so not intimidated by it at all.

outfox

terrydel wrote: »

I wouldn't be aiming to win, just not make a show of myself.

Riders get spat out the back in every race, at various stages of the course. So you wont make a show of yourself. Most spitting out happens on climbs or ramps, so if you're a good climber as you say, you'll be grand. More important to hold your line in the bunch, for as long as you're in it.

dahat

The itch to try A4 next season is strong within me but i know i wont be able to give it a proper lash due to a job change, losing my shift hours unfortunately.

I think you know deep down if you are aiming too high so I'd give it a try as you sound like you are pretty sure you are somewhat capable if holding your own.

terrydel

dahat wrote: »

The itch to try A4 next season is strong within me but i know i wont be able to give it a proper lash due to a job change, losing my shift hours unfortunately.

I think you know deep down if you are aiming too high so I'd give it a try as you sound like you are pretty sure you are somewhat capable if holding your own.

Yeah, thats true. I will know after a race or two anyway!
What kinda age groups does it generally cover? Im mid 30s but would consider myself 'young' for my age (who feckin doesnt?!)

Hungrycol

Years ago I raced in a Club League and loved it. Tried my hand at A4 and liked it a lot less. Maybe it's changed but there were a lot of woobly novice racers that I was just too uncomfortable with, that and negative riding frustrated the hell out of me. Maybe I just got older and grumpier .

Work circumstances changed and I gave it all up. Circumstances and re-changed and I hope to try it again next year, back to the beginning for me.

My advice, join a club and race in their Club League. Get all your CI licences in order for you when do A4. Keep your line and take your turn. Oh and expect not to sleep the night of your first race, your mind will be buzzing for ages after.

man_no_plan

Great question there op, I'm similar to you in age weight and height and was thinking of maybe racing a bit next year too.

I guess its like your first day at school or first day in a new job. Never know unless you try.

The only thing for me is getting out training. My speed is far from consistent and far from fast. I tried with a club a couple of years back but they weren't very tolerant of a beginner so I just went my own way.

Bike wise, what would be a minimum?

tuxy

I'd imagine any road bike that's fully functional will do. I think my 2009 allez with fulcrum 5 wheels and upgraded groupset(105 5800) will be just fine. I doubt spending thousands on a bike will make much odds to at a4 level.

JK.BMC

tuxy wrote: »

I'd imagine any road bike that's fully functional will do. I think my 2009 allez with fulcrum 5 wheels and upgraded groupset(105 5800) will be just fine. I doubt spending thousands on a bike will make much odds to at a4 level.

You are quite right assuming the bike is fully tuned up etc. One bad bump and a Specialized Venge can end up in a heap. Yes, there are lads in A4 riding bikes worth more than the car they arrive in.

tuxy

I drive a 97 starlet, my old bike is still worth more than my car

jon1981

Out of interest, how common are bad crashes in A4 races?

Bad meaning - rider is taken out of race due to broken bones and/or bad cuts

The wife gives me the "don't you dare think about it" eyes every time I raise the idea... think she believes lads are breaking bones all over the place!

Beasty

Hungrycol wrote: »

back to the beginning for me.

I'll have a special word with the Club League Committee for you. Wouldn't want to see you dropped out of scratch and we've revamped with a former World Champion to ease you back in and give you a lead out:p

koutoubia

jon1981 wrote: »

Out of interest, how common are bad crashes in A4 races?

Bad meaning - rider is taken out of race due to broken bones and/or bad cuts
!

Not that often!
I would say between every 5 and 10 km!

terrydel

man_no_plan wrote: »

Great question there op, I'm similar to you in age weight and height and was thinking of maybe racing a bit next year too.

I guess its like your first day at school or first day in a new job. Never know unless you try.

The only thing for me is getting out training. My speed is far from consistent and far from fast. I tried with a club a couple of years back but they weren't very tolerant of a beginner so I just went my own way.

Bike wise, what would be a minimum?

Cheers mate.
Name and shame the club! I love training on my own, suits my personality and I am self motivated so dont need a club to get me out. I find a lot of the carry on of the little hitlers in clubs during sportives to be very off putting. But I guess if I want to try this, joining a club and doing some training in a group is essential.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

You are quite right assuming the bike is fully tuned up etc. One bad bump and a Specialized Venge can end up in a heap. Yes, there are lads in A4 riding bikes worth more than the car they arrive in.

Sure you see that on any Sunday spin, regularly!

jon1981

koutoubia wrote: »

Not that often!
I would say between every 5 and 10 km!

:eek: I guess I'll take a look at track cycling so !

C3PO

I wouldn't be that concerned about your fitness - if you're not fit enough you'll get dropped .... End of! After a few races you'll learn to hang in and judge the effort required!
I would be much more concerned about learning to ride in very close quarters with 50 or 60 other riders ... being able to slow sufficiently without jumping on the brakes ... the etiquette of riding in a big group etc. I found simple things, like getting your water bottle out and back without looking away from the road ahead difficult at first!
As a few people have suggested, a club league is probably the best place to start!

Andalucia

very few hilly races in A4, couple of long drags is best you can hope for

Invariably they end in a bunch sprint, as suggested plenty of negative racing

plenty of surges in pace, particulary out of corners

30km an h/r on a club spin really won't prepare you for this, it will give you a good base, but really need to be doing some short sharp intervals - standard gone way up past couple of years

harringtonp

lennymc wrote: »

30kph for an hour over rollingish terrain is said to be a good indicator.
There is no humiliation, only not trying it

Second this, my "base" spins are typically about 2.5 hours on rolling terrain at about 200W (a little over 2.5W/kg) and the average speed is nearly always 29-31 km/hr.

If you're comfortable riding at this basic speed and can make the required bursts of it (by training higher intensity intervals) you'll be fine

iwillhtfu

terrydel wrote: »

Solo training spins? All my training is generally very hilly, eg I'll do 40-50k tomoro evening with approx. 700m of climbing, and will look to average at least 25kmph.

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

If you like hills though Des Hanlon could be the one for you. The only problem reading through your posts is that you may well be dropped before you reach the hills.

As others have said practice for the surges find a hill and slow almost to a stop then burst away best you can then when you're just about to keel over push a little more. Then things settle down till the next effort or you wave goodbye to the bunch.

At least that's my experience which was short lived I don't mind crashing(has happened a few times) but unfortunately it's the down time should I be seriously hurt I couldn't afford. Beasty would be a good example as to how quickly things can go south.

Beasty

jon1981 wrote: »

:eek: I guess I'll take a look at track cycling so !

I've never crashed on the track (another mod around here has mind:pac:)

Seriously though, it's an excellent discipline to acquire the basics as, unlike road racing, accreditation is required

On the more general point about crashing in A4 races, it does seem that early season is a lot riskier than later on during the year. I put that down to larger fields, more newbies, and also a few triathletes (who use racing early season for their own training, but their own experience of racing in bunches can often be quite limited. They are often very strong increasing the risks as things heat up towards the end of a race)

wanderer 22

iwillhtfu wrote: »

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' I guess ,but I would say most people would consider 700m over 40km a hilly spin.