What kind of a standard would you need to be at for A4 racing?

De Bhál

colm18 wrote: »

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' I guess ,but I would say most people would consider 700m over 40km a hilly spin.

Definitely

terrydel

iwillhtfu wrote: »

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

If you like hills though Des Hanlon could be the one for you. The only problem reading through your posts is that you may well be dropped before you reach the hills.

As others have said practice for the surges find a hill and slow almost to a stop then burst away best you can then when you're just about to keel over push a little more. Then things settle down till the next effort or you wave goodbye to the bunch.

At least that's my experience which was short lived I don't mind crashing(has happened a few times) but unfortunately it's the down time should I be seriously hurt I couldn't afford. Beasty would be a good example as to how quickly things can go south.

Thats an evening spin after work i was referring to mate. Long spin at a weekend would be double that in terms of climbing, at least. Can only get out for 2 hours or so in the evening. Unless I retire!

JK.BMC

terrydel wrote: »

Thats an evening spin after work i was referring to mate. Long spin at a weekend would be double that in terms of climbing, at least. Can only get out for 2 hours or so in the evening. Unless I retire!

All the chat about climbing metres and whatnot is interesting, but fairly irrelevant if the topic is A4 racing.
If you have 2 hours in an evening, there are numerous intervals at various intensities (how long a piece of string? etc) that you can do to prepare for racing. It might be boring, but along with good bike skills, fairly essential to be ready to race.
Club league racing is without doubt the way to get started

iwillhtfu

colm18 wrote: »

Bit of a 'how long is a piece of string' I guess ,but I would say most people would consider 700m over 40km a hilly spin.

There was I thinking I avoided all the hills. I'm surprised most would think it hilly. Sure not to worry.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

All the chat about climbing metres and whatnot is interesting, but fairly irrelevant if the topic is A4 racing.
If you have 2 hours in an evening, there are numerous intervals at various intensities (how long a piece of string? etc) that you can do to prepare for racing. It might be boring, but along with good bike skills, fairly essential to be ready to race.
Club league racing is without doubt the way to get started

To be honest, before I started this thread, club racing never even occured to me! I barely knew it existed. But it does seem to be the way to go for me to get started.
Cheers to all for the advice.

Lusk_Doyle

terrydel wrote: »

To be honest, before I started this thread, club racing never even occured to me! I barely knew it existed. But it does seem to be the way to go for me to get started.
Cheers to all for the advice.

If you consider yourself a climber due to your "small" size then be prepared to be amazed at lads much bigger than you absolutely belting up the climbs. Amature A4 racing is much much less about body type and more about pure power and ability to maintain repeated short sharp efforts.

Wishbone Ash

iwillhtfu wrote: »

There was I thinking I avoided all the hills. I'm surprised most would think it hilly. Sure not to worry.

700m over 40k is (pro-rata) 1.5 times the climbing on the WW200 and most wound consider the WW200 to be a hilly ride.

lennymc

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

700m over 40k is (pro-rata) 1.5 times the climbing on the WW200 and most wound consider the WW200 to be a hilly ride.

if you do it the day after the evil 200 it feels flat!!

ht9zni1gs28crp

It is negative, just a 50k dash chasing everything down that moves and he who hides well, and gets lucky with the wheel they are following will garner points....

A4 these days are hitting some high averages, for eg on Sunday just gone in Kilmessan we avg'd 40kph for the 54km.

Taxuser1

think the poster will benefit from getting into a club group which is race focused from October onwards. Six months of training with club mates around a similiar level (A4 and upwards) and it will be fairly evident if there is a racing body and brain in there or not by next summer. club racing then just to make sure.

don't know where you're based but our club has one of the best set ups for introduction to racing. feel free to pm and i'll give you more information.

CramCycle

terrydel wrote: »

To be honest, before I started this thread, club racing never even occured to me! I barely knew it existed. But it does seem to be the way to go for me to get started.
Cheers to all for the advice.

I would definitely go for joining a club, getting out on a few winter spins with the club to pick up tips. Club leagues tend to be far better value in regards cost per race. You will be in a group that gets to know you and will call you out alot quicker because the basis of most club leagues was originally to prepare you for open races. A few weeks in your club league with club mates will bring you up quicker than random A4 races if you get dropped.

Where are you based?

smurphy29

All the advice here is spot on; join a club, focus less on climbing speed and more on focussed intervals and flat speed.

The advice re: club racing before doing an open race is great in theory but difficult in practice. All club leagues are summer affairs, running on midweek nights after the clocks go forwards. All the best races - and indeed, the hardest and hilliest races (no, they're not all flat) - such as the Des, the Nenagh classic, the Cycleways Cup, Newbridge GP, Boyne GP, Mick Lally etc. are in the early part of the season between March and May. So if you're taking out an open racing licence for €125 it's hard to resist getting to an open race before the summer.

You will hear lots of people tell you how terrible and dangerous A4 racing is but it's not that bad. I've been in more crashes in A3 than I ever did in A4. This 61yr old put it well: “A4 racing is not dangerous as some people make out. There is some snobbery involved – every category looks down on the ones below. If you crash on the Rás you are a warrior but if you crash in A4 racing you are an idiot.” http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/how-this-man-won-his-first-ever-race-at-the-age-of-61-years/

Tigerandahalf

I have never raced and am not overly inclined to.

With young kids at home the possibility of being out of action for 6-8 weeks with a broken collarbone or damaged ribs just wouldn't work.

If you are in a job that can allow for that or will pay you for the time off it is not so bad.

The club league would probably be a good option as the groups would be smaller and much safer I would imagine.

I am actually very surprised at the speeds quoted for A4. 40kmhr for A4? The guys in Tour de France average about 50 don't they? Granted they go a lot further.

I would imagine to get anywhere near those speeds you would have to be on the bike 3/4 times a week and in winter endure the boredom of the turbo bike.

Saying all that I can see the attraction - hard to beat racing against others.

Taxuser1

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I have never raced and am not overly inclined to.

With young kids at home the possibility of being out of action for 6-8 weeks with a broken collarbone or damaged ribs just wouldn't work.

If you are in a job that can allow for that or will pay you for the time off it is not so bad.

The club league would probably be a good option as the groups would be smaller and much safer I would imagine.

I am actually very surprised at the speeds quoted for A4. 40kmhr for A4? The guys in Tour de France average about 50 don't they? Granted they go a lot further.

I would imagine to get anywhere near those speeds you would have to be on the bike 3/4 times a week and in winter endure the boredom of the turbo bike.

Saying all that I can see the attraction - hard to beat racing against others.

you could crash as easily in a sportive or on your own. even getting the leg over using the turbo can sometimes be challenging

as my mother used say. stay in by the wall and mind the buses.

C3PO

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would imagine to get anywhere near those speeds you would have to be on the bike 3/4 times a week and in winter endure the boredom of the turbo bike.

I would think that most people who race are riding their bikes 3/4 times a week and it is possible to ride an "actual" bike all year round in Ireland!

Tigerandahalf

Taxuser1 wrote: »

you could crash as easily in a sportive or on your own. even getting the leg over using the turbo can sometimes be challenging

as my mother used say. stay in by the wall and mind the buses.

Ah a race is a lot more dangerous with close proximity of riders to each other and all looking to get through a gap. Plus riding a hell of a lot faster.

I have never felt unsafe on a sportive but in club spins it is easy to be brought down and often it won't be your fault as you are grouped a lot closer and close to the wheel in front.

Each to their own though.

Tigerandahalf

C3PO wrote: »

I would think that most people who race are riding their bikes 3/4 times a week and it is possible to ride an "actual" bike all year round in Ireland!

That is a big commitment though especially with dark winter nights. You would have to be getting out on both weekend days plus I would imagine nights on the turbo.

C3PO

Taxuser1 wrote: »

you could crash as easily in a sportive or on your own .....

Oh no you couldn't!!

Irish Raven

smurphy29 wrote:

You will hear lots of people tell you how terrible and dangerous A4 racing is but it's not that bad. I've been in more crashes in A3 than I ever did in A4. This 61yr old put it well: “A4 racing is not dangerous as some people make out. There is some snobbery involved – every category looks down on the ones below. If you crash on the Rás you are a warrior but if you crash in A4 racing you are an idiot.â€

Great point there.....ive raced from a4 to a1/2 races over the past year, and ive seen the same level of craziness in all categories!! One idiot, who is watching too much eurosport is all it takes, doesnt matter his ability!!

Give the racing a lash....why wait till next year....try one before the season finishes, you will know where you have to work on over the winter then!! You wont regret it!!

smurphy29

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I am actually very surprised at the speeds quoted for A4. 40kmhr for A4? The guys in Tour de France average about 50 don't they? Granted they go a lot further.

In actual fact the average speeds in the TdeF wouldn't be much higher than 40kph. Obviously they go a lot further, but that's only the half of it; it's the style of racing that is so different. If you watch the formulaic sprint stages, they always follow the same pattern; a break of mediocre riders gets a gap of 8 minutes before it's brought back in the last hour. This allows the bunch to take it easy for most of the race. The average speed might be 42kph but the only hard bits were the first 30 minutes, when riders fought to get in the break and the last hour when the chase began. But the speed during that first and last section will be horrendous.

The main point being average speeds are ultimately meaningless. There's a phrase in cycling 'when the hammer comes down...' and that's what it's all about. Bike races change pace all the time. 80% of the race will be easy, but it's the hard 20%, going up a tough hill, fighting for position in the last 10k, bringing back a break, getting into the break and cementing a gap, that causes the difficulty. The further you go up through the grades, the longer and harder the 'hard bits' become. Happily, for riders looking to start in A4, the speeds can be quite steady; few breaks get meaningful gaps up the road, riders tend to pull the bunch along at a fast, but surprisingly manageable steady pace.

Taxuser1

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Ah a race is a lot more dangerous with close proximity of riders to each other and all looking to get through a gap. Plus riding a hell of a lot faster.

I have never felt unsafe on a sportive but in club spins it is easy to be brought down and often it won't be your fault as you are grouped a lot closer and close to the wheel in front.

Each to their own though.

i'm not sure you're best judged to comment on danger if you've only done sportives and never raced. Experience teaches you confidence and riding in close proximity is for the benefit of the group as a whole. it does sound like you're fairly unconfident in the ability of your fellow club mates or maybe just very nervous yourself?

it's generally the same idiots who are willing to disregard others safety be it sportive or race, I've found. I've crashed 3 times this year and it's been rider error. The speed has nothing to do with it, i'd happily bounce along at 45 kms+ and take the skin burn than fall sideways and break a bone, very likely at lower paces. Going through gaps is a skill but normally done with 0% risk.

I did the Ring of Kerry and I've never been involved in anything more dangerous. Saw a rider head down Molls Gap with both feet out of the pedals sticking out his leg for alternative bends. When I said to him he's more likely to crash because of balance and lack of control, I got a whole heap of nasty from him yet an hour later he approached me to apologise after he'd crashed and slid away into a bend.

I'd a recent race where we were barely travelling in the wet in Mondello and an idiot decides to do a Van Vleuten line and take the lot of us out of the race. It's always cyclists with no regard for their own or others safety.

terrydel

CramCycle wrote: »

I would definitely go for joining a club, getting out on a few winter spins with the club to pick up tips. Club leagues tend to be far better value in regards cost per race. You will be in a group that gets to know you and will call you out alot quicker because the basis of most club leagues was originally to prepare you for open races. A few weeks in your club league with club mates will bring you up quicker than random A4 races if you get dropped.

Where are you based?

Yeah, from the advice here, club racing is deffo the way to go I think. In fact the a4 stuff seems a bit much for me based on average speeds mentioned.
Based in Clondalkin.

crazy_kenny

First year racing A4. Did 3 races and a summer league. Found the summer league tougher than the A4 races tbh.


https://www.strava.com/activities/519384921

https://www.strava.com/activities/534566617

https://www.strava.com/activities/569604723

harringtonp

smurphy29 wrote: »

You will hear lots of people tell you how terrible and dangerous A4 racing is but it's not that bad. I've been in more crashes in A3 than I ever did in A4. This 61yr old put it well: “A4 racing is not dangerous as some people make out. There is some snobbery involved – every category looks down on the ones below. If you crash on the Rás you are a warrior but if you crash in A4 racing you are an idiot.” http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/how-this-man-won-his-first-ever-race-at-the-age-of-61-years/

Just to add to this bike handling may on average be better as you go from A4->A3 but in A3 races the gaps in the bunch are much smaller so the risk isn't aren't any lower. And this follows all the way up to pro level, just look at the number of incidents there

harringtonp

terrydel wrote: »

Yeah, from the advice here, club racing is deffo the way to go I think. In fact the a4 stuff seems a bit much for me based on average speeds mentioned.
Based in Clondalkin.

You'll be working far harder in club racing than any A4 race. Or put another way the average power I see after an hour of club racing is always way higher than that for any single hour in an A3 open race. And if it is not that way then you are in the wrong group at club races.

terrydel

crazy_kenny wrote: »

First year racing A4. Did 3 races and a summer league. Found the summer league tougher than the A4 races tbh.


https://www.strava.com/activities/519384921

https://www.strava.com/activities/534566617

https://www.strava.com/activities/569604723

Impressive stuff, very consistent average speeds!
This kinda puts me off actually, I really cant conceive of those speeds. :pac:

harringtonp

terrydel wrote: »

Impressive stuff, very consistent average speeds!
This kinda puts me off actually, I really cant conceive of those speeds. :pac:

Most people can't until they've experienced moving quickly in large groups. No matter how much you hear it, its still hard to imagine that going flat out on a 80km circuit at an average of 32km/hr can feel far harder than doing the same circuit in a race at 38km/hr.

Tigerandahalf

I would have no problem doing club races and having to slug it out. At least you would know you have space around you to make little mistakes.

Being in a mass bunch is a lot different.
As taxuser said above even if your bike handling skills are very good all it takes is one guy in the bunch to bring the whole lot down or someone to react to a loose bottle or item on the road.

Again if you are comfortable enough with the possibility of coming off the bike and being out hurt for a while then give it a shot. But I would imagine club races will give you the chance to race at speed and make little mistakes without hurting yourself or others.

I wouldn't like to be an experienced racer and having people coming in to a big crowded race with little experience. Wasn't there a thread about this on the forum a while back.

Lumen

The whole point of the A4 category is to give an introduction to racing.

Lusk_Doyle

Lumen wrote: »

The whole point of the A4 category is to give an introduction to racing.

Except, for many it will be where the stay for the rest of their competitive cycling "career" as only so many can be placed and get upgraded . The age old "the system is wrong" raises its ugly head again.