What kind of a standard would you need to be at for A4 racing?

tuxy

terrydel wrote: »

Impressive stuff, very consistent average speeds!
This kinda puts me off actually, I really cant conceive of those speeds. :pac:

Lucky for us Brian has a power meter. I think you would be better of looking at power output rather than speed.

crazy_kenny

terrydel wrote: »

Impressive stuff, very consistent average speeds!
This kinda puts me off actually, I really cant conceive of those speeds. :pac:

In my training I never hit those speeds either. In the race you get sucked along with the bunch.

To prepare for racing I spent many hours during the winter on my turbo trainer. I followed a structured training plan and was on the bike for 5 to 8 hours weekly from October 1st to first race on 17th March. Closer to the races I selected to race, I analysed the segments on strava and did matching intervals to prepare. I actually found the races easier than some of our club spins.

crazy_kenny

tuxy wrote: »

Lucky for us Brian has a power meter. I think you would be better of looking at power output rather than speed.

At the time my weight was 63 kg and my ftp was 240

Derrydingle

Always far to many in the a4 races letting over a 100 on small open roads is madness should be limited to 80 for safety reasons. Each week we see guys on the wrong side of the white line then a car comes down and they push inside making it dangerous for the rest of us . More guys should be marked up to a3 or make a5 for guys who are only in their 1st and 2nd year of racing.
But having said that if you do fancy giving racing ago just go for it when done right is great fun.

koutoubia

Having one race per day in each province is a major part of the problem with numbers ....but we are going way off topic here.

terrydel

crazy_kenny wrote: »

In my training I never hit those speeds either. In the race you get sucked along with the bunch.

To prepare for racing I spent many hours during the winter on my turbo trainer. I followed a structured training plan and was on the bike for 5 to 8 hours weekly from October 1st to first race on 17th March. Closer to the races I selected to race, I analysed the segments on strava and did matching intervals to prepare. I actually found the races easier than some of our club spins.

Really good advice there. I find the turbo much better for structured training (even if it is mind numbingly boring) as when out on the road I tend to just go purely with feel. Theres nothing scientific or structured really about how I ride on the road.
Tho tonight, after reading this thread, I went out and did Ballinascorney Hill 4 times, putting in some kicks on it in certain parts when I felt I could. Really enjoyed it!

lennymc

zwift and smart trainer is brilliant for structured turbo training sessions. Throw something on the TV and just pedal. The resistance sorts itself out at whatever watts you are supposed to be doing. I've even done 3 hr sessions on zwift

terrydel

lennymc wrote: »

zwift and smart trainer is brilliant for structured turbo training sessions. Throw something on the TV and just pedal. The resistance sorts itself out at whatever watts you are supposed to be doing. I've even done 3 hr sessions on zwift

I've a very basic tacx trainer. Do those programs work with all trainers or just super fancy, all singing, all dancing trainers?

DirkVoodoo

Lumen wrote: »

The whole point of the A4 category is to give an introduction to racing.

This.

I think part of the problem stems from people not being willing to learn from failure. You might win your first race, or you could get dropped. Either way you should be walking away from it and wondering what you did right and what went wrong.

Just get stuck into it. If you don't enjoy it then there is nothing wrong with that either. Plenty of other disciplines and lots of very strong people are happy doing group rides and sportives. Racing is fun, but it's not for everyone. There is a certain amount of "you have to race to progress to the next level" in clubs that just isn't true.

Maybe you just want to ride your bike fast on your own...so what? You won't know that until you try an A4 race, which is what A4 is there for.

happyhappy

This year was my first A4 having done sportives last year and deciding that it was time for racing as I had got bored.

I did a rough training plan from December onwards with an aim to start racing in May. Once March arrived I couldn't hold off much longer and did my first race. It was an experience like nothing I had experience before, my hear rate was 116 on the start line before we moved!! I finished just outside the top ten, and if I had known how to position myself better would have got points.

That's it I was hooked. The next 8 races panned out in a similar way, any flat or lumpy races I was always in the mix at the end, scored top ten in some, missed out in others due to going too early or getting blocked in - all part of the joys of racing.

The des Hanlon and stamullen GP were different though, anything with a decent climb and I found I slipped back, at 6'5" and 15stone I'm always gonna struggle there against the whippets!

I could really see how I was progressing and A3 became and realistic target early in the season.

Which leads to the sprint in a race in early May..........which featured on sticky bottle for a man standing on the road during the sprint....... I was in fourth and improving with 70 metres to go, rider directly in front of me did a bunny hop over a cats eye (don't even ask) and hit the deck, I had nowhere to go and went over him and came down hard. A few others the same.

Three of us in an ambulance to hospital, 2 of us had operations on broken collarbones the following day. I have had to have a second operation on the collarbone to have metal removed (last week) and appear to be finally on the mend but it has been a LONG few months. The turbo got boring during summer with no end in sight to the Injury. I was Out of work too, luckily I got paid for most of it.

I can't wait to start an early pre season for next year, and have a new bike ready to go in a few weeks.

This crash won't stop me, but everyone should realise the risks, I had 2 brilliant months of racing which was stopped by one second of madness by someone else.

Go for it OP go for it, I though I'd be dropped all the time, the reality was I couldn't believe I was stronger than the majority in the first few races and should have started earlier!

Tigerandahalf

@happyhappy

I think that post gives one as much detail as one would need.
If you broke your collarbone, had a long layoff and are still coming back for more then the racing is clearly for you.

Out of interest did you end up having to buy a new bike after the crash and was it difficult to sleep with the broken collarbone?

A big factor Terrydel in going racing seems to be the potential cost. Racing is not cheap and the cost of it doesn't get much discussion here.

A couple of bikes plus a good turbo trainer and all the other costs would be a fair chunk of cash.

One other thing how do you measure your progress if you are not coming in the top end. Like a lot of races seem to be tactical and unless you are a good sprinter it must be hard to guage your progress.

As a road runner you are running against the clock so easy to see your progress.

ht9zni1gs28crp

Why do you need a 'couple' of good bikes? I have one and it suffices. I have an old steel beater for winter training.

I would hazard a guess that racing is probably cheaper than sportives! The main sportives entry fee is fairly strong, couple that in with the overnight stay potentially along with a fistful of last hope gels then the costs soon add up.

You have to learn the push and thrust of cycle racing, so easy enough to gauge your progress. If you spend your time hanging on at the back then you can see room for improvement both physically and tactically...Once sitting at the front regularly you can gauge how your going more accurately. For example I now know as of Sunday that going 4k out from the finish line in an A4 race isn't as daunting as it seems, its just educated myself to better training and maybe next time going from 3k out instead and last all the way to the line.......

harringtonp

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

@happyhappy

One other thing how do you measure your progress if you are not coming in the top end. Like a lot of races seem to be tactical and unless you are a good sprinter it must be hard to guage your progress.

As a road runner you are running against the clock so easy to see your progress.

power meter

Beasty

Raquel Tender Lacquer wrote: »

Why do you need a 'couple' of good bikes? I have one and it suffices.

:rolleyes:


There's no harm in having a few spares....

:pac::pac:

terrydel

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

This.

I think part of the problem stems from people not being willing to learn from failure. You might win your first race, or you could get dropped. Either way you should be walking away from it and wondering what you did right and what went wrong.

Just get stuck into it. If you don't enjoy it then there is nothing wrong with that either. Plenty of other disciplines and lots of very strong people are happy doing group rides and sportives. Racing is fun, but it's not for everyone. There is a certain amount of "you have to race to progress to the next level" in clubs that just isn't true.

Maybe you just want to ride your bike fast on your own...so what? You won't know that until you try an A4 race, which is what A4 is there for.

Great post.
Really good advice.

happyhappy wrote: »

This year was my first A4 having done sportives last year and deciding that it was time for racing as I had got bored.

I did a rough training plan from December onwards with an aim to start racing in May. Once March arrived I couldn't hold off much longer and did my first race. It was an experience like nothing I had experience before, my hear rate was 116 on the start line before we moved!! I finished just outside the top ten, and if I had known how to position myself better would have got points.

That's it I was hooked. The next 8 races panned out in a similar way, any flat or lumpy races I was always in the mix at the end, scored top ten in some, missed out in others due to going too early or getting blocked in - all part of the joys of racing.

The des Hanlon and stamullen GP were different though, anything with a decent climb and I found I slipped back, at 6'5" and 15stone I'm always gonna struggle there against the whippets!

I could really see how I was progressing and A3 became and realistic target early in the season.

Which leads to the sprint in a race in early May..........which featured on sticky bottle for a man standing on the road during the sprint....... I was in fourth and improving with 70 metres to go, rider directly in front of me did a bunny hop over a cats eye (don't even ask) and hit the deck, I had nowhere to go and went over him and came down hard. A few others the same.

Three of us in an ambulance to hospital, 2 of us had operations on broken collarbones the following day. I have had to have a second operation on the collarbone to have metal removed (last week) and appear to be finally on the mend but it has been a LONG few months. The turbo got boring during summer with no end in sight to the Injury. I was Out of work too, luckily I got paid for most of it.

I can't wait to start an early pre season for next year, and have a new bike ready to go in a few weeks.

This crash won't stop me, but everyone should realise the risks, I had 2 brilliant months of racing which was stopped by one second of madness by someone else.

Go for it OP go for it, I though I'd be dropped all the time, the reality was I couldn't believe I was stronger than the majority in the first few races and should have started earlier!

Another superb post, really top advice there.

Gotta say, the quality of responses and advice in this thread has been wonderful, so thanks to all.

eeeee

Racing doesn't need to be expensive. I have one road bike, one set of wheels, €15 per race, a banana in my back pocket (now and some Haribo!) and diesel money for whoever gives me a lift, still cheaper than the €20-40 average for a sportive before you go about getting there. I have a set of rollers I got for €50. There's no more expense to the thing.
I don't race A4 so I can't comment on that, and I don't know a huge amount about the road, I only do it to build up endurance for track. Road is sooooo boring :P :pac:

terrydel

nee wrote: »

Racing doesn't need to be expensive. I have one road bike, one set of wheels, €15 per race, a banana in my back pocket (now and some Haribo!) and diesel money for whoever gives me a lift, still cheaper than the €20-40 average for a sportive before you go about getting there. I have a set of rollers I got for €50. There's no more expense to the thing.
I don't race A4 so I can't comment on that, and I don't know a huge amount about the road, I only do it to build up endurance for track. Road is sooooo boring :P :pac:

Yeah, I don't buy the expensive side of it either. Its as expensive as you want it to be I'd say. If its an excuse to pay 4k for a bike fair enough, but you don't need that level of bike. And you certainly don't need more than one, as you can only do one race at a time. Low-end turbo or rollers would be perfectly good, and other big expenses like power meters etc are nice to have but not one bit essential.

happyhappy

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

@happyhappy



Out of interest did you end up having to buy a new bike after the crash and was it difficult to sleep with the broken collarbone?

A big factor Terrydel in going racing seems to be the potential cost. Racing is not cheap and the cost of it doesn't get much discussion here.

I cracked carbon on the top tube. I got such a good deal from the shop for a replacement and had access to a cycle to work scheme (cough cough)to offset the cost even more so I build a new bike around the new frame. It was a once off chance to do it.

I got the cracked frame repaired and will keep that and see what I will do with it.

Collarbone and sleeping was really difficult at the start but got easier. 3 months later I still wake if I roll onto my left side.

equivariant

my 2 cents after about a year of racing at A4 - so still a complete novice basically.

1. Our club league is a much higher standard than A4 - I guess it depends on the club, but most have some A1/2 riders. Unless you get a massive handicap, those guys will definitely put you in your place pretty rapidly.

2. Sportive riding will help but only to a certain extent. Sportives tend to have a lot more climbing than the races I have been involved in. Its no good spinning a low gear up a short sharp hill in a 50 or 60k race - you'll be out the back by the top and won't be getting back on. I think that a lot of races in club leagues or a4 involve short sharp hills (maybe 2 to 4 minute climbs) where you really have to go into the red and push a bigger gear to stay in the group. Sportive climbing tends to be focused on spinning up the hills so as not to burn your legs early in a long day. Its quite a different experience.

3. No amount of trying to guess how to prepare will tell you what racing is like - its likely both harder and easier (in different aspects) than you might think. Average speeds are often meaningless - I used to think that 40kph for 90 minutes seemed impossible but in a big group in good conditions that can feel surprisingly comfortable. Just enter as many races (club or a4) as you can. Every single race I have done in the last year has been a learning experience.

casion3

Great thread!
I think the basics is to join a Club, if they have a few racers you'll know the standard required and youll get fast quicker.

I like alot of sportive riders use a compact, how will this work in a race situation are most lads on bigger rings, will i get spun out etc?

Lusk_Doyle

casion3 wrote: »

Great thread!
I think the basics is to join a Club, if they have a few racers you'll know the standard required and youll get fast quicker.

I like alot of sportive riders use a compact, how will this work in a race situation are most lads on bigger rings, will i get spun out etc?

Most likely unless you can keep a more rapid cadence going for longer than they can on their biggest gear.

eeeee

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Most likely unless you can keep a more rapid cadence going for longer than they can on their biggest gear.

I race a compact no problem. If you have a bit if leg speed you'll be fine. 50x11's bigger than 53x12.
Your legs will be fresher too by the end if you can spin and not be grinding a big gear all the time.

Arthurdaly

iwillhtfu wrote: »

No offence intended but I'm not sure I'd consider that a hilly spin tbh I'd manage more and I am utterly ****e on hills.

You do not consider 700m elevation over 40km hillly? Where do you cycle? You do realise that's more elevation than the highest paved road in Ireland?

casion3

nee wrote: »

I race a compact no problem. If you have a bit if leg speed you'll be fine. 50x11's bigger than 53x12.
Your legs will be fresher too by the end if you can spin and not be grinding a big gear all the time.

I suppose the semi compacts would be a good halfway house

Would a start racing FAQ post be a good idea?

JK.BMC

Arthurdaly wrote: »

You do not consider 700m elevation over 40km hillly? Where do you cycle? You do realise that's more elevation than the highest paved road in Ireland?

Agree. This is just glorified d1ck measuring by strava monkeys usually; utterly irrelevant for racing e.g. 'I did 965m climbing at an average speed of x.kmh - got 59 kudos's for it!' and then can't corner or hold a wheel in Mondello on lap 1. It is seriously of no consequence to a race- but maybe good for posting online and basking in self-congratulation

Lusk_Doyle

nee wrote: »

I race a compact no problem. If you have a bit if leg speed you'll be fine. 50x11's bigger than 53x12.
Your legs will be fresher too by the end if you can spin and not be grinding a big gear all the time.

It ain't bigger than 53x11 though.

eeeee

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

It ain't bigger than 53x11 though.

Touche

Lusk_Doyle

nee wrote: »

Touche

There you go again with the touching! Go away!


Touched your post

Craig06

I have found that you don't need to be the fittest, fastest and strongest in a4 to have fun racing. Learn how to position yourself and fight to stay they. Learn how to handle a bike properly at speeds and you'll be fine. And try to stay near the front as most crashes happen at the back half of the pack as people still sprint for 40th place.

terrydel

JK.BMC wrote: »

Agree. This is just glorified d1ck measuring by strava monkeys usually; utterly irrelevant for racing e.g. 'I did 965m climbing at an average speed of x.kmh - got 59 kudos's for it!' and then can't corner or hold a wheel in Mondello on lap 1. It is seriously of no consequence to a race- but maybe good for posting online and basking in self-congratulation

Such anger!
don't use strava myself, my 2nd hand garmin 200 tells me how much climbing ive done :pac: