General Premier League Thread - 2016/2017

elefant

Arsenal

Jayop wrote: »

You'd have to ask why is Lukaku not taking them if he's the best goal scorer. Lack of bottle maybe? Baines has a great record but if I was Lukaku I'd be looking to take these easy goals that apparently requires no skilL to take to boost my numbers.

Bit of a strawman argument there, don't you think?

Jayop

Chelsea

elefant wrote: »

Bit of a strawman argument there, don't you think?

Not really when it was said above that no one would say Baines is a good goalscorer. It's not a straw man argument even in the slightest.

Penalties require skill to consistently score against top keepers. They require bottle and practice. They also count in the score sheet as the same as a 30 yard overhead kick.

Penalties count.

Laois_Man

Arsenal

irishman86 wrote: »

City dont play to Agueros strengths, why do you think he was dropped by Pep because he wasnt adapting to Peps style

He was dropped for about 3 PL games 2 to 3 months ago - you're getting carried away assuming he'd still be dropped considering he is in fine form having scored in almost every game since then in all competitions. The point I made was Aguero has played almost every minute of almost every PL game this season which is true. Another point I also made is Everton don't play to Lukaku's strengths which is also true, because he needs a strike partner

Some people would just debate with their shadow.

GavRedKing

Chelsea

Just looking back on the last decade for top scorers in the league:

Suarez finished on 31 goals, and 0 penalties.
RVP finished on 30 with 2 penalties.
Drogba finished on 29 with 1 penalty.

Nearly everyone else in the other years, had finished on 23-26 with some combination of penalties, usually 3 or more.

Its a great feat to score high 20's and not take penalties and Lukaku is in great company if he keeps it up but I cant see him matching Suarezs total from that crazy year.

Personally I remember Drogabs 1 penalty, it was the last game of the year against Stoke, he was going for the golden boot the same game.

Kiith

I think people underestimate how hard it can be to score a penalty in high pressure scenarios.

I would agree with the 30/0 being better then 20/10 (goals to penalties) though.

irishman86

GavRedKing wrote: »

Just looking back on the last decade for top scorers in the league:

Suarez finished on 31 goals, and 0 penalties.
RVP finished on 30 with 2 penalties.
Drogba finished on 29 with 1 penalty.

Nearly everyone else in the other years, had finished on 23-26 with some combination of penalties, usually 3 or more.

Its a great feat to score high 20's and not take penalties and Lukaku is in great company if he keeps it up but I cant see him matching Suarezs total from that crazy year.

Personally I remember Drogabs 1 penalty, it was the last game of the year against Stoke, he was going for the golden boot the same game.

Was that the same game Lampard wouldnt let him take one

Lukker-

GavRedKing wrote: »

Just looking back on the last decade for top scorers in the league:

Suarez finished on 31 goals, and 0 penalties.
RVP finished on 30 with 2 penalties.
Drogba finished on 29 with 1 penalty.

Nearly everyone else in the other years, had finished on 23-26 with some combination of penalties, usually 3 or more.

Its a great feat to score high 20's and not take penalties and Lukaku is in great company if he keeps it up but I cant see him matching Suarezs total from that crazy year.

Personally I remember Drogabs 1 penalty, it was the last game of the year against Stoke, he was going for the golden boot the same game.

T'was Wigan! Stoke was a game or two before. We got 2 pens against Wigan but Lampard took the first after a little disagreement with Drogba about who should take it. Lampard told Drogba, "League first, than goals". Drogba proceeded to bang his pen in off the post and apologized post match.

Jayop

Chelsea

You couldn't argue with Frank taking the pens though in general, he was lethal from the spot It's obviously a skill he had worked on and perfected, thus they count.

2009/10 Frank scored 22 in the league and 27 in all comps. How many of those were pens?

Lukker-

Jayop wrote: »

You couldn't argue with Frank taking the pens though in general, he was lethal from the spot It's obviously a skill he had worked on and perfected, thus they count.

2009/10 Frank scored 22 in the league and 27 in all comps. How many of those were pens?

For sure, Drogba was being selfish but realised this I think.

He scored 10 penalties that season i think, as well as 14 assists in the league.

theoneeyedman

Jayop wrote: »

Ugh fake news. I hate that pop term.

Pogba isn't having a great season. He's had a good season that was a but underwhelming considering the price tag on his head. The problem is that when he's poor in a game it's hyped out of all proportion but when he has a good game there's barely a mention because it's the least that's expected if him.

Like I said earlier he's created 54 scoring chances in the league and I'm open to correction here but I think that's the most. He's hit the post and crossbar countless times and had he converted a fee if them his scoring and assist record would be fine. Big money or not he's taking a while to settle in and the team has been in Flux this year with Jose coming in and trying to fix the mess of the last three years. Pogba is more than a highlights package player and I'm confident he'll be a great player for many years.

Might not live up to the expectations of oppo fans though as they're the only ones constantly going on about the transfer fee.

While your post is very measured, a lot of the spin being put on Pogba in recent days is slightly embarrassing. Personally, I think he has been just OK, was quite poor before Xmas and has improved somewhat since then, but still only middling. The price tag isn't his fault, but it is a factor when assessing how successful the transfer by has been.
The stats bring quoted are misleading, 'chances created', what does that mean. If I aimlessly lump a ball into the penalty area (a typical United tactic at times this season) and it eventually ping pongs to a United player, is that counted. Most passes.... typically goalkeepers and centre backs score high here, mainly passing over and back, so what does it tell us?? Hitting the woodwork... is that a good or a bad thing??

FWIW I think Pogba will be a success, he is talented, and has a lot of physical attributes that suit the English game, so when he settles a bit and when the team becomes less fixated on feeding Ibrahimovic and suiting his style. But he's not there yet

GavRedKing

Chelsea

Lukker- wrote: »

T'was Wigan! Stoke was a game or two before. We got 2 pens against Wigan but Lampard took the first after a little disagreement with Drogba about who should take it. Lampard told Drogba, "League first, than goals". Drogba proceeded to bang his pen in off the post and apologized post match.

Ah we had a few 7 and 8 goal thrillers at home that year, I got the games mixed up but remember the bickering. I think Drogba and Rooney were going for the golden boot but Drogba was already clear at that stage and didnt need the extra goals he got.

Jayop

Chelsea

theoneeyedman wrote: »

While your post is very measured, a lot of the spin being put on Pogba in recent days is slightly embarrassing. Personally, I think he has been just OK, was quite poor before Xmas and has improved somewhat since then, but still only middling. The price tag isn't his fault, but it is a factor when assessing how successful the transfer by has been.
The stats bring quoted are misleading, 'chances created', what does that mean. If I aimlessly lump a ball into the penalty area (a typical United tactic at times this season) and it eventually ping pongs to a United player, is that counted. Most passes.... typically goalkeepers and centre backs score high here, mainly passing over and back, so what does it tell us?? Hitting the woodwork... is that a good or a bad thing??

FWIW I think Pogba will be a success, he is talented, and has a lot of physical attributes that suit the English game, so when he settles a bit and when the team becomes less fixated on feeding Ibrahimovic and suiting his style. But he's not there yet

A chance created is putting someone into a genuine scoring position.

irishman86

Laois_Man wrote: »

He was dropped for about 3 PL games 2 to 3 months ago - you're getting carried away assuming he'd still be dropped considering he is in fine form having scored in almost every game since then in all competitions. The point I made was Aguero has played almost every minute of almost every PL game this season which is true. Another point I also made is Everton don't play to Lukaku's strengths which is also true, because he needs a strike partner

Some people would just debate with their shadow.

He was dropped for Jesus, the only reason he got back in was because of Jesus's injury. The point was that City play to Agueros strengths which is incorrect. Agueros strengths dont include what Pep wants hence why he was dropped. As for fine form, just because he has scored a few goals doesnt mean hes in fine form,this is possinly his poorest season form wise.
Lukaku needs a partner :pac: dude that guy is built for the lone man role. A role Everton play to perfection. Your points are strange, so Im guessing you are just reading the wiki stats as I dont think you have watched them play this season

Lukker-

GavRedKing wrote: »

Ah we had a few 7 and 8 goal thrillers at home that year, I got the games mixed up but remember the bickering. I think Drogba and Rooney were going for the golden boot but Drogba was already clear at that stage and didnt need the extra goals he got.

Yep, can't remember who United were playing, Sunderland or something. Fergie ended up taking Rooney off early too.

irishman86

GavRedKing wrote: »

Ah we had a few 7 and 8 goal thrillers at home that year, I got the games mixed up but remember the bickering. I think Drogba and Rooney were going for the golden boot but Drogba was already clear at that stage and didnt need the extra goals he got.

He wanted 30 from what I remember

GLaDOS

Scoring penalties regularly is a skill not to be ignored. Just look at Messi's relatively poor record from the spot.

Gbear

You can have a penalty taker anywhere in the side but there's no reliable way to get your left back to score 25+ a season.

It's not that penalties are worthless but they need to be set aside from the general abilities of a forward and taken as their own skill.

As an individual I think Lukaku is top class but I have doubts about his capacity to function as part of an attacking unit at the highest level.

He might suit a team that plays mostly reactive, counter-attacking football, so Utd or Chelsea might work fine (albeit, I don't think he's shown that he works hard enough for Conte or Mourinho), but I can't ever see him working out at teams with a more pro-active, systematic form of attack, nor do I think he's has the pure quality to succeed at somewhere like Real.

I think he's brilliant at his current level but I don't believe he'll come close to matching that, never mind continue to develop, at a higher level.

AdamD

GLaDOS wrote: »

Scoring penalties regularly is a skill not to be ignored. Just look at Messi's relatively poor record from the spot.

http://www.michelacosta.com/en/messi-vs-cristiano-ronaldo-penalties-missed-and-scored/ If this is accurate hes probably average or above average?

It definitely should be taken into account when comparing goal records. Yes he did go and score that penalty but if somebody else were to take it there's a high chance they would have scored too.

Dirty Dingus McGee

GLaDOS wrote: »

Scoring penalties regularly is a skill not to be ignored. Just look at Messi's relatively poor record from the spot.

Thats kind of the point though.

Messi is probably the most skillful player in the world and he's not brilliant at them and players who have infinitely less skill can take them.Anyone here could probably go out and take penalties and be as successful as many professional players.

It shouldn't really be counted as being part of the skill of being a great goalscorer as it basically something you can have a knack for without necessarily having the skill to be a great goalscorer.

Andy Johnson scored 21 goals one year for Crystal Palace in the premier league but 11 of them came from penalties.In reality he wasn't ever a 20 goal a season striker at that level and he never got close to getting 21 goals in the premier league again.

The Talking Bread

So much irony and contradictions in so many posts here!

Iused2likebusts

GLaDOS wrote: »

Scoring penalties regularly is a skill not to be ignored. Just look at Messi's relatively poor record from the spot.

I agree its a great skill to have and having a good pen taker is important. However it doesn't translate to the skills a striker uses in general play he will hardly ever strike a ball that isn't moving. Unless he controls it dead before shooting but even then its a different circumstance to a peno. Almost every goal a striker scores the ball will be moving either him finishing off a passing move or him running through on goal and finishing. A pen taker can be any player on the pitch some of the best pen takers I've seen are full backs baines, Phil Neal, graham Alexander played for Burnley and west ham had a great pen taker in the 80s whose name escapes me. Lukaku is right to step aside and let baines take pens if he feels baines is the better pen taker. It only impacts on the teams overall goalscoring positively.

eh i dunno

Julian dicks the West ham pen taker? David unsworth was a brilliant pen taker too. Only missed about 1 in 25.

Iused2likebusts

eh i dunno wrote: »

Julian dicks the West ham pen taker? David unsworth was a brilliant pen taker too. Only missed about 1 in 25.

Not dicks played before him. Yes unsworth another great pen taker and not someone you would associate as a technical player.

eh i dunno

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

Not dicks played before him. Yes unsworth another great pen taker and not someone you would associate as a technical player.

Ray Stewart. Wasn't Denis irwin a decent peno taker too

ERG89

eh i dunno wrote:

Ray Stewart. Wasn't Denis irwin a decent peno taker too

David O'Leary?
Took all the ones for Arsenal I heard

Iused2likebusts

eh i dunno wrote: »

Ray Stewart. Wasn't Denis irwin a decent peno taker too

Ye that's the one. Stuart Pearce and Andreas brehme two other great fb pen takers.

Liamalone

Iron, Usworth, Baines, Pearce and Brehme, all great penalty takers, all left footers. I remember being told in my youth that lefties were the best penalty takers.

mickmackey1

Liamalone wrote: »

Iron, Usworth, Baines, Pearce and Brehme, all great penalty takers

Pity he missed the big one in Italia 90 so.

irishman86

Liamalone wrote: »

Iron, Usworth, Baines, Pearce and Brehme, all great penalty takers, all left footers. I remember being told in my youth that lefties were the best penalty takers.

You left out Ian Harte, isnt that some sort of crime in Ireland

elefant

Arsenal

Jayop wrote: »

Not really when it was said above that no one would say Baines is a good goalscorer. It's not a straw man argument even in the slightest.

It is, because nobody argued penalties don't require any skill.

Nobody is arguing penalties don't count the same as other goals on the scoresheet.

The fact of the matter is that if Lukaku was on penalties he would have more goals this season. He has 9 from 13 in his career, while Kane has 15 from 20.

Gavlor

Liamalone wrote: »

Iron, Usworth, Baines, Pearce and Brehme, all great penalty takers, all left footers. I remember being told in my youth that lefties were the best penalty takers.

Indeed we are!

MonkieSocks

ERG89 wrote: »

David O'Leary?
Took all the ones for Arsenal I heard

He took a greta peno for us versus Romania in the 1990 world Cup in Italy.

I think a lot of were quite about that one

Johnny Giles had a near perfect record from penos' for Ireland and Leeds Utd

Jayop

Chelsea

elefant wrote: »

It is, because nobody argued penalties don't require any skill.

Nobody is arguing penalties don't count the same as other goals on the scoresheet.

The fact of the matter is that if Lukaku was on penalties he would have more goals this season. He has 9 from 13 in his career, while Kane has 15 from 20.

He said that you don't be a good goal scorer for taking pens. That's a skill. It's not a strawman argument just because you say it is.

elefant

Arsenal

Jayop wrote: »

You'd have to ask why is Lukaku not taking them if he's the best goal scorer. Lack of bottle maybe? Baines has a great record but if I was Lukaku I'd be looking to take these easy goals that apparently requires no skill to take to boost my numbers.

elefant wrote: »

Bit of a strawman argument there, don't you think?

Jayop wrote: »

He said that you don't be a good goal scorer for taking pens. That's a skill. It's not a strawman argument just because you say it is.

So, above you've suggested that Lukaku isn't taking the penalties for Everton because he doesn't have the requisite abilities to take penalties successfully, and then used sarcasm to refute the argument that penalties don't require any skill.

Unfortunately, neither of these are arguments that anyone here has made.

So, it's not a strawman argument because I said it is, it's a strawman argument because you appear to trying to win an argument over a point nobody has actually made. The point is that Kane has a better goals per minute ratio than Lukaku, but Lukaku's goals per minute ratio would almost certainly be better if he was taking Everton's penalties.

GavRedKing

Chelsea

Lukaku missed against Utd last year in the FA cup semi final, I dont know why Baines didnt take it, he was on the pitch at the time (I think) and Lukaku had been woeful all afternoon.

He missed agaisnt Munich for Chelsea in the Super Cup back in 2013, handed in a transfer request and never played for Chelsea again.

He should probably give up on the penalties. :pac:

Jayop

Chelsea

elefant wrote: »

So, above you've suggested that Lukaku isn't taking the penalties for Everton because he doesn't have the requisite abilities to take penalties successfully, and then used sarcasm to refute the argument that penalties don't require any skill.

Unfortunately, neither of these are arguments that anyone here has made.

So, it's not a strawman argument because I said it is, it's a strawman argument because you appear to trying to win an argument over a point nobody has actually made. The point is that Kane has a better goals per minute ratio than Lukaku, but Lukaku's goals per minute ratio would almost certainly be better if he was taking Everton's penalties.

You forgot to quote the post I was replying to that I've told you twice now I was replying to in which it was stated Baines can't be considered a good goal scorer despite taking pens and scoring a fair few other goals including free kicks. If the suggestion is that Baines taking the pens doesn't require skill as a goal scorer (which it was) then how can responding to such be considered a strawman?

Jayop

Chelsea

And Lukaku's goals record would only be better is on pens if he's able to score them.

GavRedKing

Chelsea

PFA team of the year is

De Gea

Walker Cahill Luiz Rose

Hazard Kante Alli Mane

Lukaku Kane


I've a few issues with but my main gripe is Azpilicueta not being included over Cahill.
I'd have Sanchez over Mane too.
Lloris or Courtois over De Gea also.

eh i dunno

GavRedKing wrote: »

PFA team of the year is

De Gea

Walker Cahill Luiz Rose

Hazard Kante Alli Mane

Lukaku Kane


I've a few issues with but my main gripe is Azpilicueta not being included over Cahill.
I'd have Sanchez over Mane too.
Lloris or Courtois over De Gea also.

No pogba? And yet lukaku is there

Alderweireld must have been close.

TitianGerm

eh i dunno wrote: »

No pogba? And yet lukaku is there

Alderweireld must have been close.

I'm not sure if your serious on Pogba

I would have had Alderweireld in ahead of Cahill and Azp. in ahead of Walker.

Iused2likebusts

My team would be
Heaton
Valencia alderweireld luiz rose
Alli kante wijnaldum hazard
Lukaku kane

eh i dunno

emmetkenny wrote: »

I'm not sure if your serious on Pogba

I would have had Alderweireld in ahead of Cahill and Azp. in ahead of Walker.

I'm not serious. Read back a few pages where some people see pogba as a world beater and lukaku a one trick battering ram.

irishman86

eh i dunno wrote: »

I'm not serious. Read back a few pages where some people see pogba as a world beater and lukaku a one trick battering ram.

Thats exactly what each of them are though. How does this change anything. Cahill is in it over about 10 more worthy calls. And Lukaku is a striker

Jayop

Chelsea

eh i dunno wrote: »

I'm not serious. Read back a few pages where some people see pogba as a world beater and lukaku a one trick battering ram.

Nobody said that at all Ffs. Utter hyperbole bollocks.

Lukker-

irishman86 wrote: »

Thats exactly what each of them are though. How does this change anything. Cahill is in it over about 10 more worthy calls.

Some more hyperbole, only Toby Alderweild, Vertoghen or Azpilicueta have legit claims ahead of him imo. You could make a case for Rojo or Bailly but they weren't regulars all season.

irishman86

Lukker- wrote: »

Some more hyperbole, only Toby Alderweild, Vertoghen or Azpilicueta have legit claims ahead of him imo. You could make a case for Rojo or Bailly but they weren't regulars all season.

Yes obviously I was exaggerating but thats three players and one even on his own team
I liked the post Keown did where the English lads were more likely to vote, it makes sense seeing so much English lads in the team in that case

GavRedKing

Chelsea

Azpilicueta is the only player I've a serious gripe over, he should have been in over Cahill every day of the week, hes been our best CB.

Cahill is only in because hes English and the captain, I'd assume.

Jayop

Chelsea

I'm not sure if DeGea deserves the place this year but I don't think there's been an exceptional keeper over the season. Valencia at RB would be the only other genuine united shout but can't complain about who was in there.

The Talking Bread

eh i dunno wrote: »

I'm not serious. Read back a few pages where some people see pogba as a world beater and lukaku a one trick battering ram.

Jayop wrote: »

Nobody said that at all Ffs. Utter hyperbole bollocks.

Indeed, his username says it all if that is how he is twisting the Pogba and Lukaku respective "debates"


Put Lukaku in a better team with players like a Sanchez or an Ozil or a Hazard or a Mata or a Sane or a Mane or a Sterling feeding him and he will do more than be a cliche "one trick battering ram" :rolleyes:

Here are all Lukaku's goals. If you can't see the potential quality of him with better players around him, you are very naive. He is still young also.

Harry Palmr

Hull and Boro down to 10 men in their respective games

Bournemouth 2-0 and Swansea 1-0 up