Should the FAI push for a special dispensation off Fifa in regards "Northern Ireland"

The Golden Miller

Is it time the FAI had the authority to be an official governing body in Northern Ireland, alongside the IFA? The true divide in Ireland is not between "Northern Ireland" and the Republic of Ireland, it's between unionism and nationalism/the native Irish (or however you want to phrase it). We are left with a situation where half the population of "Northern Ireland" do not have an team officially representing them, and I don't think that is right. The "Republic of Ireland" football team is a 32 county football team in practice and I think it's time to make it official, or at least attempt to do so. The IFA can carry on as they always have done by representing the the unionist community and drawing from it, while the FAI can start to work in closer conjunction with the Irish people in the north.

Now you may say it's impossible to have two governing bodies in the one jurisdiction but "Northern Ireland" is a special situation and there is a first time for everything. Fifa has already recognised this special situation in the past in relation to Irish players born in the 6 counties playing with the "Republic of Ireland". If a special dispensation akin to this was ever to be granted, we would officially have an all Ireland team and neither Irish or unionist traditions would have to be watered down to accommodate the other side. Win win for both sides.

As for the leagues, people born in the north can choose their nationality, why can't football teams do the equivalent? In this scenario, teams like Cliftonville or Donegal Celtic could freely choose to play in the League of Ireland should they want to. The majority of teams in the Irish Premiership are unionist anyway, so it wouldn't really weaken their league. It would expand the geographical base in the LOI and teams like Cliftonville would have the chance to improve by playing in a better league.

It would also help pave the way for one team representing the island in the future should that happen, or in the event of a United Ireland, it could be agreed that unionists retain "Norn Iron" to give them some comfort. Of course, the IFA would kick up hell originally, but there is little they could do if Fifa agreed with the FAI. The reality is, an over emphasis from most media outlets referring to the FAI team as the "REPUBLIC OF" Ireland can be quite exclusionary for northern nationalists. We also run the risk of losing many Irish players to "Norn Iron" in the future, as the manufactured unionist "normalisation process" continues in it's attempts to make young impressionable nationalists believe that they are "Northern Irish" as opposed to Irish.

So what does everyone think, complete nonsense or a serious avenue the FAI should be exploring and pushing for?

pablomakaveli

It's nonsense. Irish people in Northern Ireland have the option to play for the Republic if they choose. Theres nothing stopping them from supporting the Irish team either.

This just sounds like a daft idea that would stir up a load of trouble for next to no gain.

Mr.Nice Guy

The FAI are the breakaway organisation. They were the ones who split from the IFA historically. There is no way they will ever have authority over the 6 counties. It's not going to happen.

And the chances of there being one organisation for the island are remote because that would mean there would have to be one league, which would mean the European money that the likes of Linfield can get from having their own league in NI would be threatened because they would then have to compete with the likes of Dundalk, Cork City etc. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

The only way there will be one sporting organisation is if there is one Irish jurisdiction. And we seem to be a fair bit away from that.

I would say, however, northern nationalists do have a team for them. It might not be officially their team but it has a northerner as manager and several northerners in the squad and as the recent Euros showed, there is big support from north of the border.

The situation right now might not be ideal but it's pretty good all things considered.

Dirty Dingus McGee

The FAI should cop on and change the name of the team officially from Republic of Ireland to the country's official name (and the name by which every citizen of the country refers to the place) which is Ireland.

purplepanda

I was very impressed with the large numbers of Ireland fans with Nordie accents over in France this summer, I can only really pick out the Belfast & Derry accents, being from Wexford stock, but it was impressive support none the less.

Anyway time changes everything, not that long ago that some of us were getting considerable grief from the Tyrone, Armagh, Belfast & Derry lads after we, the London Irish, Munster & Leinstermen were cheering on Norn Iron & David Healy beating England in a North London pub. pac:

We then had to suffer being called Free State Bar^&$%&^^ & were given a history lesson! ::rolleyes:

Met one west Belfast protestant lad supporting Ireland & his english born son supporting N.I. over in Bordeaux, cue lots of beer & political & history talk whilst everyone had a grand time & got very lashed!

LeBash

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The FAI are the breakaway organisation. They were the ones who split from the IFA historically. There is no way they will ever have authority over the 6 counties. It's not going to happen.

Was listening to a piece on Off the Ball a few months ago and they actually came close to unifying the 2 football associations.

For the record. It was the FAI who pulled out when it was very close to an agreement.

Ragnar Lothbrok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

As for the leagues, people born in the north can choose their nationality, why can't football teams do the equivalent? In this scenario, teams like Cliftonville or Donegal Celtic could freely choose to play in the League of Ireland should they want to. The majority of teams in the Irish Premiership are unionist anyway, so it wouldn't really weaken their league. It would expand the geographical base in the LOI and teams like Cliftonville would have the chance to improve by playing in a better league.

In general, for sentimental reasons I suppose, I like the idea of teams from the north being given the option to join the LOI.

However, there are a few reasons I don't think it should happen:

The creation of a league in the north based on purely sectarian grounds is surely counter to everything that the Good Friday Agreement tried to create.

Cliftonville aside, could any of the smaller "nationalist" clubs afford to compete in an all-Ireland league? Due to the massive increase in travel costs, it's highly doubtful.

As things stand at present, Cliftonville have a reasonable chance of winning trophies in the north and qualifying for Europe on a fairly regular basis. I'd see very little chance of them having a realistic chance of winning anything "down here".

I doubt that Cliftonville would improve by joining the LOI, in fact it would probably weaken them as it would be harder for them to attract players (assuming my point above is correct).

A truly inclusive all-Ireland league is the ideal, in my opinion. The creation of a "Protestant League for Protestant Teams" league in the north would make this ideal even more difficult to attain than at present.

*I've used Cliftonville as the example in my points above as they are the only "nationalist" team in the north (as far as I'm aware) that would come anywhere near the standards of the LOI. Donegal Celtic, Lurgan Celtic, etc are just simply not good enough. Not even good enough for the top flight in the north.

citytillidie

It may pad out the 1st division or bankrupt teams with more travel

keeponhurling

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The FAI should cop on and change the name of the team officially from Republic of Ireland to the country's official name (and the name by which every citizen of the country refers to the place) which is Ireland.

Agree with this. The current name is misleading and suggests the team is only for players from the 26 counties.

All players from the island of Ireland are eligible, so therefore the name should be changed.

ArmaniJeanss

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

The FAI should cop on and change the name of the team officially from Republic of Ireland to the country's official name (and the name by which every citizen of the country refers to the place) which is Ireland.

keeponhurling wrote: »

Agree with this. The current name is misleading and suggests the team is only for players from the 26 counties.
All players from the island of Ireland are eligible, so therefore the name should be changed.

I don't think its a decision for the FAI to make, as the ROI name was a FIFA construct originally.

keeponhurling

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I don't think its a decision for the FAI to make, as the ROI name was a FIFA construct originally.

Maybe so, but post-GFA it's no longer correct.

Also - it may be a FIFA construct, but surely the organisation and team themselves can have some input into their own name !

ArmaniJeanss

keeponhurling wrote: »

Maybe so, but post-GFA it's no longer correct.

Also - it may be a FIFA construct, but surely the organisation and team themselves can have some input into their own name !

Well FIFA decreed neither could use plain Ireland as you know.

Obviously the FAI could raise the issue again, IFA could protest etc. then FIFA could adjudicate and maybe come to another halfassed solution again like in 1952 or whenever.

Out of interest if we claim that the current association/team is a different concept post-GFA than it was pre-GFA, then as part of any theoretical rebrand/rename to just being 'Ireland' shouldn't we have our UEFA coefficient reset to 0, ditto our FIFA ranking points and start out in Pot 6 of the next few qualification campaigns?
Just a thought.

Ragnar Lothbrok

keeponhurling wrote: »

Maybe so, but post-GFA it's no longer correct.

Also - it may be a FIFA construct, but surely the organisation and team themselves can have some input into their own name !

The name "Republic of Ireland" is still correct though, it's just that FIFA amended their eligibility rules after the GFA, to allow those born in the north to have the automatic right to play for the Republic of Ireland if they chose to do so.

keeponhurling

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Well FIFA decreed neither could use plain Ireland as you know.

Obviously the FAI could raise the issue again, IFA could protest etc. then FIFA could adjudicate and maybe come to another halfassed solution again like in 1952 or whenever.

Out of interest if we claim that the current association/team is a different concept post-GFA then it was pre-GFA, then as part of any theoretical rebrand/rename to just being 'Ireland' shouldn't we have our UEFA coefficient reset to 0, ditto our FIFA ranking points and start out in Pot 6 of the next few qualification campaigns?
Just a thought.

Given the GFA was 1998, i guess it's a moot point now.

But as it is still the old Repuiblic of Ireland jurisdiction, plus a bit more, then I don't think past results could have been discounted.

Perhaps more reasonable would be to deduct half of Northern Ireland's ranking points, and give them to the Republic :pac:

Jayop

The FAI should have youth camps and development squads in the North. Nothing to stop them from doing it and it could possibly stop all the griping from the IFA about the FAI stealing players they developed. They only developed them because the players themselves have no opportunity to play for one of the FAI development sides unless they travel and play for Sligo/Leitrim or Cavan/Donegal and even then they would have needed to have been picked up by one of those sides.

That's a much more pressing issue than any naming or governing rights.

The Golden Miller

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The FAI are the breakaway organisation. They were the ones who split from the IFA historically. There is no way they will ever have authority over the 6 counties. It's not going to happen.

And the chances of there being one organisation for the island are remote because that would mean there would have to be one league, which would mean the European money that the likes of Linfield can get from having their own league in NI would be threatened because they would then have to compete with the likes of Dundalk, Cork City etc. Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

The only way there will be one sporting organisation is if there is one Irish jurisdiction. And we seem to be a fair bit away from that.

I would say, however, northern nationalists do have a team for them. It might not be officially their team but it has a northerner as manager and several northerners in the squad and as the recent Euros showed, there is big support from north of the border.

We didn't need the Euro's to tell us that there was big support from the Irish in the north for Ireland, that's standard, it's their team. I don't really see the relevance of the FAI breaking away from the IFA in regards to the topic I brought up though, i.e. shared official recognition in the 6 counties, where the IFA can continue as is. There being one organisation on the island is an aside to the point.

You think the likes of Shelbourne would move north if it meant easier European qualification? Didn't think so. Their level would regress even further and token gestures of getting hammered in Europe would mean fcuk all. I'm sure most of the nationalist clubs would rather improve and gain entry into Europe at a better level than they are currently at imo.

Linfield can continue to have their own league (that's one of the problems, continued corruption favoring them). Let the nationalist teams play in LOI and let Linfield wallow in their own self pity with Glentoran et al. Why should unionists be allowed to have the casting vote on whether there's a united Ireland team/league or not? If they don't want one, let them struggle alone while the rest of us, north and south, progress.

LeBash wrote: »

Was listening to a piece on Off the Ball a few months ago and they actually came close to unifying the 2 football associations.

For the record. It was the FAI who pulled out when it was very close to an agreement.

Disingenuous. Why should we hop to meet all their demands (or not demand anything incase a unionist Ireland football team wouldn't be achieved?)

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

The creation of a league in the north based on purely sectarian grounds is surely counter to everything that the Good Friday Agreement tried to create.

Cliftonville aside, could any of the smaller "nationalist" clubs afford to compete in an all-Ireland league? Due to the massive increase in travel costs, it's highly doubtful.

As things stand at present, Cliftonville have a reasonable chance of winning trophies in the north and qualifying for Europe on a fairly regular basis. I'd see very little chance of them having a realistic chance of winning anything "down here".

I doubt that Cliftonville would improve by joining the LOI, in fact it would probably weaken them as it would be harder for them to attract players (assuming my point above is correct).

A truly inclusive all-Ireland league is the ideal, in my opinion. The creation of a "Protestant League for Protestant Teams" league in the north would make this ideal even more difficult to attain than at present.

*I've used Cliftonville as the example in my points above as they are the only "nationalist" team in the north (as far as I'm aware) that would come anywhere near the standards of the LOI. Donegal Celtic, Lurgan Celtic, etc are just simply not good enough. Not even good enough for the top flight in the north.

The reality is the ideal of an all-Ireland league and team will never be achieved, if we leave it in unionists hands. What we could do is get all the nationalist teams playing in one league and let the the unionist teams continue to struggle in the "Irish Premiership". If they finally see the light out of necessity, then we may finally have an all Ireland league. Even that is stretching it, but we certainly won't get an all Ireland league/team if we pander to them.

Personally I believe it would strengthen the northern teams, in particular Donegal Celtic. There is a massive vacuum left since Belfast Celtic packed it in in west Belfast. Cliftonville draw support from there to a point, but a rejuvenated west Beslfast team could potentially draw massive support in the right environment. If some of the lower teams feel they couldn't cut it, they have the option to play at a lower level in the Irish system or stay put. Do any nationalist teams really lose out?

No one has really answered the question. Is there any real practical barriers in the granting of joint jurisdiction in the north if FIFA was to hypothetically agree?

Fr Tod Umptious

The Golden Miller wrote: »

We didn't need the Euro's to tell us that there was big support from the Irish in the north for Ireland, that's standard, it's their team. I don't really see the relevance of the FAI breaking away from the IFA in regards to the topic I brought up though, i.e. shared official recognition in the 6 counties, where the IFA can continue as is. There being one organisation on the island is an aside to the point.

You think the likes of Shelbourne would move north if it meant easier European qualification? Didn't think so. Their level would regress even further and token gestures of getting hammered in Europe would mean fcuk all. I'm sure most of the nationalist clubs would rather improve and gain entry into Europe at a better level than they are currently at imo.

Linfield can continue to have their own league (that's one of the problems, continued corruption favoring them). Let the nationalist teams play in LOI and let Linfield wallow in their own self pity with Glentoran et al. Why should unionists be allowed to have the casting vote on whether there's a united Ireland team/league or not? If they don't want one, let them struggle alone while the rest of us, north and south, progress.



Disingenuous. Why should we hop to meet all their demands (or not demand anything incase a unionist Ireland football team wouldn't be achieved?)



The reality is the ideal of an all-Ireland league and team will never be achieved, if we leave it in unionists hands. What we could do is get all the nationalist teams playing in one league and let the the unionist teams continue to struggle in the "Irish Premiership". If they finally see the light out of necessity, then we may finally have an all Ireland league. Even that is stretching it, but we certainly won't get an all Ireland league/team if we pander to them.

Personally I believe it would strengthen the northern teams, in particular Donegal Celtic. There is a massive vacuum left since Belfast Celtic packed it in in west Belfast. Cliftonville draw support from there to a point, but a rejuvenated west Beslfast team could potentially draw massive support in the right environment. If some of the lower teams feel they couldn't cut it, they have the option to play at a lower level in the Irish system or stay put. Do any nationalist teams really lose out?

No one has really answered the question. Is there any real practical barriers in the granting of joint jurisdiction in the north if FIFA was to hypothetically agree?

Yes there are practical barriers.

The IFA would be against it for one, and they have a voice in FIFA too

Secondly there is precedent. NI is not the only part of the world with disputed jurisdiction, so if you do it for NI then every other place like it will be looking for or against something similar.

In theory it has some validity, but not in practice.

keeponhurling

Honestly, if for example the Polish FA wanted to set up a football training camp in Ireland for those kids eligible for Poland, would we really mind ?

It could only be godo for the sport in Ireland

Jayop

keeponhurling wrote: »

Honestly, if for example the Polish FA wanted to set up a football training camp in Ireland for those kids eligible for Poland, would we really mind ?

It could only be godo for the sport in Ireland

Hopefully we'll have the pick of those kids in a few years. There's already a young Polish lad breaking into the senior Gaelic side in my town. A lot of them feel split nationality.

citytillidie

Who is to say those teams want to play in the LOI? More tax to pay up North & lots more travel, (well travel maybe easier for the Belfast clubs than Derry and Finn Harps).

Also even before GFA Ireland could play people from the North if they wanted via the granny rule the GFA agreement just made it easier

Fr Tod Umptious

keeponhurling wrote: »

Honestly, if for example the Polish FA wanted to set up a football training camp in Ireland for those kids eligible for Poland, would we really mind ?

It could only be godo for the sport in Ireland

The FAI would have none of it, and rightly so.

The Golden Miller

The Golden Miller wrote: »

The "Republic of Ireland" football team is a 32 county football team in practice and I think it's time to make it official, or at least attempt to do so. The IFA can carry on as they always have done by representing the the unionist community and drawing from it, while the FAI can start to work in closer conjunction with the Irish people in the north...

I think people like Gerry Armstrong and Michael O'Neill might bristle at the suggestion that they were drawn from the Unionist community!

Of course there are serious issues. The Good Friday Agreement is less than 20 years old. But I think the FAI being seen as marching into the North to represent a section of the community would be a remarkably backward step and may have repercussions beyond sport. Either way, God knows the FAI can't even manage the game here, giving them more to look after seems like a really bad idea...

Ragnar Lothbrok

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Personally I believe it would strengthen the northern teams, in particular Donegal Celtic. There is a massive vacuum left since Belfast Celtic packed it in in west Belfast. Cliftonville draw support from there to a point, but a rejuvenated west Beslfast team could potentially draw massive support in the right environment. If some of the lower teams feel they couldn't cut it, they have the option to play at a lower level in the Irish system or stay put. Do any nationalist teams really lose out?

No one has really answered the question. Is there any real practical barriers in the granting of joint jurisdiction in the north if FIFA was to hypothetically agree?

Donegal Celtic don't have the resources or support to run a successful club in the LOI. IF they joined the LOI it would be in the First Division - and matches against the likes of Cobh Ramblers - which are hardly likely to create a great amount of interest. There might possibly be an increase in support for DC for the first few games in the LOI, but it would quickly wane, leaving DC in a much worse position financially than they are presently.

Lurgan Celtic would be even less likely to gain anything out of joining the LOI, as their potential fanbase is much smaller than DC's.

I don't see the logic of your argument that joining the LOI would make these clubs automatically stronger. What could either of the Celtics achieve by being in the LOI First Division? I spent two years as a Cork City supporter down in the mire of the First Division, and it's definitely NOT a good standard of football. If DC and LC aren't even good enough to make the Premier League in the north, why would they make any progress in the LOI?

It's a sentimental idea at best, but far from practical for the teams in the north.

As for FIFA allowing this to happen, I would say not. It took years and years for Gibraltar to be allowed to join UEFA and FIFA due to Spanish opposition. Eventually FIFA and the Spanish FA were forced to agree to it because the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled in Gibraltar's favour. I doubt very much that the FAI have the inclination or the balls to go to down this road.

The Golden Miller

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Yes there are practical barriers.

The IFA would be against it for one, and they have a voice in FIFA too

Secondly there is precedent. NI is not the only part of the world with disputed jurisdiction, so if you do it for NI then every other place like it will be looking for or against something similar.

In theory it has some validity, but not in practice.

They also had a voice when they were overruled on the issue of Irish players born in the north being allowed to declare for Ireland.

It is not the same issue as Catalonia etc. There is no new football association being admitted into FIFA, just a slight extension of a members jurisdiction.

The Golden Miller

Deleted User wrote: »

I think people like Gerry Armstrong and Michael O'Neill might bristle at the suggestion that they were drawn from the Unionist community!

Of course there are serious issues. The Good Friday Agreement is less than 20 years old. But I think the FAI being seen as marching into the North to represent a section of the community would be a remarkably backward step and may have repercussions beyond sport. Either way, God knows the FAI can't even manage the game here, giving them more to look after seems like a really bad idea...

Michael O'Neill was anyway. Like McIlroy, a Catholic raised with unionist leanings. Backward for who exactly? This excuse always seems to get trotted out in relation to many things to do with the north so as not to upset unionists and the nationalists are again the ones who lose out because of it. So you feel progression is the Irish born in the north should accept all "Northern Irish" institutions and an identity because anything that rocks the unionist boat is backward? Would you accept it if you were Irish and born there? Surely both finally having what they want is progress?

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Donegal Celtic don't have the resources or support to run a successful club in the LOI. IF they joined the LOI it would be in the First Division - and matches against the likes of Cobh Ramblers - which are hardly likely to create a great amount of interest. There might possibly be an increase in support for DC for the first few games in the LOI, but it would quickly wane, leaving DC in a much worse position financially than they are presently.

Lurgan Celtic would be even less likely to gain anything out of joining the LOI, as their potential fanbase is much smaller than DC's.

I don't see the logic of your argument that joining the LOI would make these clubs automatically stronger. What could either of the Celtics achieve by being in the LOI First Division? I spent two years as a Cork City supporter down in the mire of the First Division, and it's definitely NOT a good standard of football. If DC and LC aren't even good enough to make the Premier League in the north, why would they make any progress in the LOI?

I don't think Cliftonville would join seeing as they are a traditionally unionist team, with some of those elements remaining on the board. Therefore Donegal Celtic would see a surge in support moving south. There's a big footballing fan base in west Belfast vying for the support in the community, but no unified support for a west Belfast team since Belfast Celtic packed it in. A move to playing with the rest of Irelands clubs would draw huge attention and support I'd feel. Of course it may take time to gain entry into the premier division but it would happen eventually. All these travel excuses don't really hold up when the likes of Finn Harps can do it, and clubs all over the world can do it. Seems more a cover for certain people just not wanting it to happen for other reasons. And above all, none of the clubs wouldn't have to move if they didn't want to. The clubs was more an aside to the point of the Irish in the north having an official team representing them. I get the impression that many in the south don't want a united Ireland football team if it means "only" the nationalists came to play, it seems would be interested in getting the oppurtunity to fawn over unionists to show them how great and inclusive we are

awec

Cliftonville or DC have no interest in playing in the LOI. The idea is laughable. This topic seemed to raise its head every other week from about 2007 to 2011ish.

Donegal Celtic are a glorified social club these days who haven't the resources or the fans to compete at the top level. When they got promoted to the premiership a few years ago there was talk that their support would boom but it never materialized, people weren't interested in them. Moving to the LOI would probably end them as a club. In fact, I think their social club, which funds the team, wanted to pull the plug on the football club a few years ago. The idea that they will magically create a huge fan base is really just nonsense.

Cliftonville are currently one of the best teams in the league going through one of the most successful periods in their history and are one of the clubs doing a lot of good work in promoting our league. I am pretty sure they are one of many clubs (probably all clubs) who would campaign strongly against the idea of an all Ireland league.

The biggest blocker to any all Ireland football league would be the IFA member clubs, especially the NIFL clubs. The league is more competitive than it has been in years and crowds are rising.

There is more chance of Derry city rejoining the Irish league than there is of IFA clubs choosing to move to the any all Ireland league, which should give you an idea of just how fantastical this notion is.

awec

On a further note there were actually talks in 2008 to create an all Ireland league but the idea was killed by clubs on both sides of the border.

There were also question marks raised about the financial situation of clubs in the LOI.