The Great Satan

BuilderPlumber

It is no wonder the world is a mess. Listening to various politicians and countries insult each other and one gets the impression that the world is lead by imbeciles of very low IQ. Look at this term The Great Satan or Satan being used by various low IQ individuals when they want to give a cheap insult to their rival. Be it some unpatriotic Iranian who wants to do in his more moderate government colleagues and keep his country poor by calling America the Great Satan or be it Trump calling Clinton Satan or be it ISIS calling everyone Satan, no wonder things are a mess.

I cannot understand why all this extremism is tolerated in some places. There are Mosques all over the Middle East where shouting death to the Great Satan, who is America, Israel, Russia, the West, or whoever else they want to insult on a given day, is part of the 'mass'. Imagine if some priest at mass in Ireland gave a sermon that called for hatred of Britain and started and ended with chants of uh ah up da RA. The church would distance itself from the words of that priest and that priest would be no longer saying mass.

Now, the problem is not just the poorer specimens of the Islamic world saying these things. Just go over to America and listen to Christians saying the same things about Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, or whoever. Both sides shout hatred at each other, thrive on each other meanwhile keep sensible and moderate people on both sides down. Trump ever the loudmouthed opportunist of course will partake in this madness and his presidential candidacy has been a series of insults of any group or individual he does not like.

Surely, the world deserves better than incompetent buffoons be it Trump, Mohammad Ali Jafari or ISIS or whoever who use racist and insulting rhetoric like The Great Satan when they want to divert attention from their own shortcomings as very poor leaders or candidates. All this violent and racist rhetoric only leads to violent actions. Men like Baghdadi, Jafari and Trump hate each other and ironically need each other to thrive and to blame the poor state of their countries on. Their racist and unhelpful rhetoric is a mask for their ultra-poor leadership and/or their background. Baghdadi is a common criminal who got lucky due to the wars in Iraq, Jafari is the real power in a country that should be rich but is poor because of his poor leadership approach, and Trump is a businessman who has failed numerous times and inherited his wealth from his family. None are talented and none have achieved anything worthwhile and never will. Expect all three to call each other The Great Satan!

Common sense is dead. That's what I can see from looking at western culture while living outside of it. (I've been living in China for the last 7 years.)

Nody

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Surely, the world deserves better than incompetent buffoons be it Trump, Mohammad Ali Jafari or ISIS or whoever who use racist and insulting rhetoric like The Great Satan when they want to divert attention from their own shortcomings as very poor leaders or candidates.

You assume that people want to take responsibility and take intelligent decision rather than have someone confirm that all their issues are not their fault but someone else who stole it from them. While noble in spirit that's not how the world has ever worked as humans are moved by emotions and not logic and why parties want very short slogans people can remember.

None are talented and none have achieved anything worthwhile and never will. Expect all three to call each other The Great Satan!

Talent is only useful if you get an opportunity to use it and of the two opportunity is by far the more important one as noted as far back as Machiavelli's "The Prince".

K-9

In first world countries like the US or Britain people are worried about incomes, jobs, globalism, immigration etc. We've been brought up to believe that we will leave our children better off and many don't believe that will be the case in future.

With pressure on incomes people are more and more price conscious, we want clothes, food and electronics as cheap as possible and then wonder why manufacturing is declining and jobs going to China or wherever. Rather than examining our own choices it's easier to blame Government or the Polish lad next door! That doesn't mean we should ignore immigration and pretend it's all good with no downsides whatsoever.

As for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, well the US and Britain has to take its share of blame there. Look at Hollande's reaction to the attacks on France, let's bomb Syria even more!

The likes of twitter doesn't help, people are getting more and more divided, it seems feeling I'm right is more important than reaching compromise or understanding a different point of view. Plus everybody can get information now which isn't necessarily a good thing all the time as ISIS and far right media are exploiting.

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

As for the rise of Islamic fundamentalism, well the US and Britain has to take its share of blame there. Look at Hollande's reaction to the attacks on France, let's bomb Syria even more!

The likes of twitter doesn't help, people are getting more and more divided, it seems feeling I'm right is more important than reaching compromise or understanding a different point of view. Plus everybody can get information now which isn't necessarily a good thing all the time as ISIS and far right media are exploiting.

I think all western countries need to shoulder the blame there. There is this tendancy by western nations to treat all countries the same regardless of their cultural differences. This assumption that our own history with religion and its diminishing involvement in society/politics means the same in other countries, and yet it's almost the opposite.

The problem is that western cultures seem to have this superiority complex whereby they feel they need to pander to other "lesser" civilisations. Appeasement is the rule now. It didn't work with Hitler, and it certainly doesn't work within the ME or Asia. It's certainly won't work with China either. Instead, these cultures see it as a weakness to be exploited. In fact most asian cultures see themselves as being superior to everyone else. Whereas in the west, the idea of white pride or superiority is seen as something evil.

Look at America. There are hundreds of groups promoting black pride, hispanic pride, indian pride etc. but any mention of something similiar for white people raises claims of bigotry and racism. We have been forced to embrace a guilt mentality towards other cultures and it has paralysed our ability to combat their influence from a social, cultural or diplomatic p.o.v. western civilisation is crumbling from the inside, and the islamic groups or others are just scenting the blood.

All western nations are responsible because we allowed the US and Britain to dictate policy for the rest of us. we passed the buck, and we continue to pass that responsibility. Until we are willing to step up and fight back using similar attitudes as other non-western cultures, we will continue to be targeted. It's really that simple.

K-9

Jaysus, that's very pessimistic klaz! I do get what you are saying.

The US, yeah there are serious problems among poorer white lower income classes as well, sometimes I think we focus too much on race and forget the commonalities, that's we ignore that often socioeconomic factors cause the problems and race is incidental, or not as important as portrayed.

Think Belfast for example, there are little to no differences between the Shankill and Falls Road, just different flags and religions which has been drummed into them over centuries.

Black lives matters is an example of the extremes or people with fixed views winning out. People who can see both sides of it get drowned out, God forbid you say I agree, but!

K-9

K-9 wrote: »

Jaysus, that's very pessimistic klaz! I do get what you are saying.

Hmm... maybe... I am, but then I've been living in China for 7 years. I do love the country, but... the government does take some getting used to, and in spite of what people say, the people aren't so far behind in supporting the governments ideas. The problem is that most westerners just do not understand foreign culture. They see foreigners coming to Europe, making a minimum effort to fit in, and then they think "as sure, they'll fit in eventually". But it doesn't work like that. I will always be a foreigner in China. It doesn't matter if I speak chinese fluently, get married and have children here, or even change my nationality... I will continue to be a laowei. or worse depending on who you meet. And I have no rights in China. Oh, sure, the law stipulates some minimum rights for me as a foreign expert, but I know that they can be revoked in an instant. If I don't play ball, I'm gone.

And china is not alone with that attititude. I've lived in a variety of asian countries and travelled throughout many M.eastern countries. There are distinct similiarites in thought. Oh, they despise each other just as much. I teach at top tier university level in China, and its amazing the bile you'll hear from 300 incredibly cute & pretty chinese girls (aged 20-21) talking about Japan or America. The indoctrination and propaganda is entrenched and has been there for hundreds of years... (yup, before even the communists showed up)

I still love living in China but its changing. Its getting far more nationalistic, and critical of foreign behavior. I'm not talking about the government. I'm talking about the educated & new "middle class" of china. The uneducated are worse. I fully expect this will be my last year there for a while... because war is coming.

And China is not alone in this. I've seen similar behavioral changes and attitude shifts in a dozen other countries in the region. It's getting nasty out there and nobody will stop to ask where you are from... they'll see a white face and assume you're american.

Ten years ago, when chinese people spoke about America there was anger but admiration too. The chinese admire success. That's disappeared. Now theres just contempt. And the same with Europe. The inability of Europe to deal with the immigration issue and islamic "terrorism" provides them with plenty of reasons to think we've dropped the ball, and someone better should pick it up. namely china.

Dohnjoe

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

It is no wonder the world is a mess

Taking history into account, the world is actually safer and less violent

On aggregate we have better rights, equality, live longer, higher literacy, lower infant mortality, more opportunities, more job mobility, better infrastructure, safety, etc, etc

Most of it is social progress (there are third world countries which are faring far worse despite access to the same tech)

We just receive more information than ever before and due to our tendency to focus on the negative - we may believe the world is more of a mess than it actually is

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Taking history into account, the world is actually safer and less violent

Although i would say that the world is just as violent and dangerous as it ever was...

On aggregate we have better rights, equality, live longer, higher literacy, lower infant mortality, more opportunities, more job mobility, better infrastructure, safety, etc, etc

Most of it is social progress (there are third world countries which are faring far worse despite access to the same tech)

We just receive more information than ever before and due to our tendency to focus on the negative - we may believe the world is more of a mess than it actually is

Time perception has shifted also. It's not really that long since Napoleon sought to conquer Europe. Its just that people tend to focus on the last 60-70 years as if so much has happened suddenly. WW2 shifted the perceptions on war, and then again with the Vietnam war. Along with the shift in thinking when a few hundred soldiers die as opposed to the hundreds of thousands from earlier wars.

Dohnjoe

Deleted User wrote: »

Although i would say that the world is just as violent and dangerous as it ever was...

Indeed, which is based on personal perception

The reality is that it isn't.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-decline-of-violence/
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/12/the_world_is_not_falling_apart_the_trend_lines_reveal_an_increasingly_peaceful.html
https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence?language=en

It's not a perfect decline of course, there are bumps and blimps, but in general, on aggregate, the world is less violent

As for safety, in almost every single aspect of our lives - transport, food, medical, etc, safety has improved, often vastly

World poverty has decreased from half the world's pop in 1981 to 21% in 2010 (despite a pop increase of 59%)

Of course things are not perfect, but when we compare with our own history - things have improved drastically

Dohnjoe

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Of course things are not perfect, but when we compare with our own history - things have improved drastically

For now. Don't get me wrong, I read your links and I do agree with the observations made but....

The world is heading towards a series of major wars within the next decade. Both China and Russia have both turned expansionist. The social stability of western culture and society is flimsy at best (too many changes too quickly without considering the future). The economic models used worldwide are flawed without any real answers to resolve the problems, and costs are rising consistently. Religion is once more raising its ugly head towards cultural domination. Extremist groups and extremist ideas are becoming the norm. (moderate views are being sidelined) Along with the rise of corporate power and legal controls by them towards personal freedoms. (patent controls over peoples very DNA and personal freedom).

Perhaps I've become too cynical and have begun to see the dark side of things everywhere... and you're totally correct. These are my personal observations, but then I dont see them as being any less valid because of it. I've learned that a lot of modern statistics are skewed and often expert opinions are just assuming to protect their own particular agenda. I've become very untrusting of statistics. But, thats just me.

BuilderPlumber

I feel we are living in a hyper-media culture. We cannot live without it and there are positives. The downside is any crazy political movement out there now can reach the hearts and minds of a mass audience in seconds. The insults fly all around: Satan, rogue state, Great Satan, Little Satan, Axis of 'evil', 'evil' empire, the next Hitler, Mad Mullah(s). The list goes on and on. Trump is the most visible agent of this sort of stuff at present but while we often are shocked by what he has to say, we have had all this before said by both Americans and non-Americans.

The origins of this kind of rhetoric that has dominated international politics in recent years have peculiar origins. Many politicians want to try and 'speak the language' of 'the common man' and 'say what audiences want to hear' according to them. Who is the 'common man' and 'do audiences want to hear'. I find no one wants to hear the local drunk talking like this in pubs!

Going back to the term 'The great Satan': perhaps Ireland has a role in its origins and its use to describe hated imperialist powers. There is a story of a Co Wexford landlord's mansion where the devil was supposed to have appeared in British times. The Wolfe Tones popularised the song 'Some say the divil is dead' with the line 'more say he [the devil] rose again and joined the British army'. This became a massive favorite of IRA types here. The terms 'The great Satan', the 'lesser Satan' and 'the little Satan' then suddenly show up in the rhetoric of Colonel Gaddafi and then in the rhetoric of Revolutionary Guards' ruled Iran in the 1970s and 1980s. Both had links to the IRA with one supplying guns and the other naming a street after Robert Gerard Sands. Could both have swiped the term from the Wolfe Tones? Or did they get it from Nasser who most likely was the first to use it in a Middle East context. Such terms always referred to either America, Israel or less often USSR or Britain. Saddam needless to say used similar rhetoric when he fell out with America and always used it towards Israel. In turn ISIS has been referred to as a devil cult today and depicting countries or organisations as agents of the devil does not seem to be new. Such terminology is now in the public domain but who can claim ownership of it? Gaddafi? Not anymore can he as he is no longer around. Iran's Revolutionary Guards and their speechwriters? The Wolfe Tones? The Provos? The Old IRA? Nasser? Trump? Well all of them will claim or make it their own.

A lot of this rhetoric is to cover up the shortcomings of politicians or regimes, to divert attention away from more domestic issues, to stave off the unpopularity of a regime, to unify support behind a regime against a common enemy, to blame others for a mess, to satisfy a peasant audience. All these are reasons why everyone from Trump to Saddam or Ahmadinejad to Wolfe Tones to Ian Paisley have used such terms. They all are giving a certain audience what they like to hear. Often these will contradict themselves too when they are giving another audience what they want to hear!

Does it really matter though where it originally came from? Isn't it more important that those within western culture come together and provide a truly united front against the forces that seek to dismantle western civilisation?

I've noticed that the west often seems immobilzed and incapable of dealing with threats because they're looking for reasons or excuses for any action. Do you really think eastern cultures do the same? Nah. Look to Russia reclaiming the former soviet union. Are they apologizing every step of the way? Is china asking forgiveness for expanding its military strike ability to cover Japans trade zone? Are African countries/tribes (where this applies) asking permission or forgiveness for genocide of another tribe?

And yet there has become almost this requirement for western nations. Now, you might call that accountability, but I wouldn't see it as such. Modern cultures (non-western) only respect strength. Military, economic, and social strength.... Not the need to expand or dabble with foreign politics but simply having the capacity should the need arise.

And Give up this idea of getting forgiveness from muslims or others (although i wonder why we need forgivenss since they would have done the same to us). Its never going to happen. At least not while they feel that they can hurt us. Get strong again, get our heads out of their immediate concerns, and look to our own systems. and lose that damn guilt. Colonialism, crusades, whatever. It's a useless guilt that only weakens the whole of western civilisation.

BuilderPlumber

Deleted User wrote: »

Does it really matter though where it originally came from? Isn't it more important that those within western culture come together and provide a truly united front against the forces that seek to dismantle western civilisation?

I've noticed that the west often seems immobilzed and incapable of dealing with threats because they're looking for reasons or excuses for any action. Do you really think eastern cultures do the same? Nah. Look to Russia reclaiming the former soviet union. Are they apologizing every step of the way? Is china asking forgiveness for expanding its military strike ability to cover Japans trade zone? Are African countries/tribes (where this applies) asking permission or forgiveness for genocide of another tribe?

And yet there has become almost this requirement for western nations. Now, you might call that accountability, but I wouldn't see it as such. Modern cultures (non-western) only respect strength. Military, economic, and social strength.... Not the need to expand or dabble with foreign politics but simply having the capacity should the need arise.

And Give up this idea of getting forgiveness from muslims or others (although i wonder why we need forgivenss since they would have done the same to us). Its never going to happen. At least not while they feel that they can hurt us. Get strong again, get our heads out of their immediate concerns, and look to our own systems. and lose that damn guilt. Colonialism, crusades, whatever. It's a useless guilt that only weakens the whole of western civilisation.

The reason we have all this mess today is due to each country/region blaming others for things they do themselves. The West has made many poor decisions along the way just like the Arab world, China, Russia, Iran, etc. have as well. Meanwhile vile terrorist organisations have thrived when each power has played off against each other. Of course, all the world and regional powers will call each other names but will never directly fight each other. Instead they get involved in proxy wars elsewhere. That's why Yemen, a lot of Africa, Syria, Iraq, etc. is now a mess and why SE Asia and Central America was in the past.

We do need to come together and stop the forces that threaten Western civilization. We do need to need to acknowledge the West itself played a role in creating these forces too. Each country and region needs to own up to its mistakes and set things right the West included.

ISIS and other intolerant 'Islamic' forces are today's enemy and are as mucha threat to the West as they are to Iran and Russia. Yet they cannot be truly defeated when the world's powers are not united. Saudi Arabia and Qatar continue to support al Nusra and perhaps ISIS in their proxy wars against Iran. The West tolerates this. Al Nusra are not as famous as ISIS but are another al Qaeda offshoot that could well be tomorrow's ISIS.

This West v East thing belongs in the past. The enemies of today are no longer nation states but shadowy terror groups. Ironically the worst of these are funded and sponsored by countries we consider to be West's allies. West's falling out with Iran in 1979 lead us to closer cooperation with more hardline states that supply oil and yet almost every country play down these country's true intentions and I think Saudi and Qatari (West's supposed friends) funding of al Qaeda affiliated groups is much more worrisome than any alleged funding of Hezbollah by the West's supposed enemies.

Where does Ireland fit in? We are not in the East and we do not exactly have a Western political history. We have been a colony and we have stayed out of direct military conflict. At least we have fairly good to excellent relations with all world nations it would seem anyway.

BuilderPlumber

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Where does Ireland fit in? We are not in the East and we do not exactly have a Western political history. We have been a colony and we have stayed out of direct military conflict. At least we have fairly good to excellent relations with all world nations it would seem anyway.

Totally agree although i would add one point. Ireland is a western country. We are seen as a white nation, and we will be grouped in with other European countries. When the mob marches along looking for a white face, it won't stop to ask your nationality. It'll just see a target.

K-9

It does matter how these terms came about, otherwise we learn nothing from history. Maybe we are doomed to just keep repeating history but I don't think doing things because Russia or China are going a certain way is the right thing to do. You can't ignore it but if policy is always about reacting you'll never win, you have to be proactive and concentrate on things within your control as well.