RAF could shot down hijacked planes in Irish airspace

ScumLord

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No RAF plane would shoot anything down in Irish airspace without the authorisation of both governments.

I wouldn't depend on that. British pilot following a plane might have the Irish government telling him not to shoot it down over Ireland and the British government telling him to shoot it down before it's over British airspace. We would have to depend on the Brits sticking to their agreement. the pilot will always follow the orders he gets from his own superiors regardless of whatever political treaties are in place.

cajonlardo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you have to be a british citizen to become a pilot in the RAF.

Jaysus.

I better return my uncle's DFC so in case they come looking for it.

EDIT - theres also a man living down the road who used to fly harriers and there is a guy cycles with us flew transport planes

ohnonotgmail

cajonlardo wrote: »

Jaysus.

I better return my uncle's DFC so in case they come looking for it.

why the need to be deliberately obtuse?

Fratton Fred

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't depend on that. British pilot following a plane might have the Irish government telling him not to shoot it down over Ireland and the British government telling him to shoot it down before it's over British airspace. We would have to depend on the Brits sticking to their agreement. the pilot will always follow the orders he gets from his own superiors regardless of whatever political treaties are in place.

Surely they'd aim for the wet bit in the middle?

Beefy78

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Lets just leave it to these guys..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT7qrYi8R_M

Jesus, what an incredible video. Thank you.

Alun

Beefy78 wrote: »

Jesus, what an incredible video. Thank you.

It's even more exciting when you're driving down some of the roads around there and you see one of them in your rear view mirror. You don't hear a thing until they go over the top of you and then the whole car shakes.

ScumLord

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely they'd aim for the wet bit in the middle?

There is a conflict of interest there nevertheless. What if the plane had a dirty bomb on it and prevailing winds over the Irish sea would blow the fallout towards the UK, but if they blow it up over Athlone only Ireland would be affected?

I doubt the British would sacrifice Ireland to save themselves and I still don't think we can afford an effective air force, but there certainly is a conflict of interest and it's not ideal to depend on a foreign power to protect us.

Jawgap

Alun wrote: »

It's even more exciting when you're driving down some of the roads around there and you see one of them in your rear view mirror. You don't hear a thing until they go over the top of you and then the whole car shakes.

I used to work across the North York Moors and the Dales and there's nothing as scary / inspiring as an AH-64 popping up in front of you on a quiet road and using you for 'target' practice.......plus on one occasion one overflew us, and hovered - thought the Land Rover we were in was going to be flipped......I'm sure the air crew thought they were being hilarious!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewEeKOcf3zk

bear1

If Ireland say joined NATO tomorrow, what benefits would it bring to our military and air force?
After thinking about it more I also think maybe we could open baldonnel to other eu forces to base craft there.
Wont the eu at some stage when the UK leaves ask us why is a non eu country cross crossing our sovereign airspace rather and an eu member state?

Gatling

bear1 wrote: »

If Ireland say joined NATO tomorrow, what benefits would it bring to our military and air force?
After thinking about it more I also think maybe we could open baldonnel to other eu forces to base craft there.

We couldn't join NATO until we actually increase military spending ,
Would be an idea becoming home to an EU Battlegroup or at minimum a staging area ,

The only benefit to becoming a NATO member is Article 5 if one is attacked all other states mobilise in defense ,
Troops would also benefit from training with various other forces and equipment

bear1

Gatling wrote: »

We couldn't join NATO until we actually increase military spending ,
Would be an idea becoming home to an EU Battlegroup or at minimum a staging area ,

The only benefit to becoming a NATO member is Article 5 if one is attacked all other states mobilise in defense ,
Troops would also benefit from training with various other forces and equipment

What's the minimum amount the government would need to increase spending by?
The eu base in Ireland would be a good call considering it is the most western country of the eu and open to the world busiest air traffic.

Gatling

bear1 wrote: »

What's the minimum amount the government would need to increase spending by?

It's recommended that each counties spend 2 % of GDP be spent on defense ,
We would struggle in the air and Sea where we have very limited resources ,

Just compare with Denmark island nation similar population and economics ,

They spend €3 billion per annum on defense they have a decent size air force with multiple types of aircraft from F16s to various other aircraft and a navy with 64 vessels ,

We have 6 naval vessels , 7 turbo prop pc9 aircraft and 2 casa maritime patrol aircraft and a few helicopters.
With a current spend of 800 million ,
The government currently spends €640 million on over seas aid

timthumbni

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Lets just leave it to these guys..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT7qrYi8R_M

Great video. That guy sounded very, very cool and very professional. That would be a pretty sweet job if you had the brains and the balls to do it.

prinzeugen

RAF QRA

http://youtu.be/pe46SmN_tjo

Wonder if they are cleared to do more than Mach 9.5 over Ireland...

AndyBoBandy

bear1 wrote: »

After thinking about it more I also think maybe we could open baldonnel to other eu forces to base craft there.

Yes, because changing from an insignificant player in the air to housing an operational jet fighter fleet, and suddenly becoming a legitimate target for Russia in the event of war would be a sensible thing to do.

The flying mouse

We should join NATO and stop hiding behind the UK, Sometimes you have to make a stand in the world stage. We have been sitting in the fence in this regard for to long.

The flying mouse

State's first duty is to provide for the security of its citizens. If Ireland had done what neutrals, such as Sweden and Switzerland, had done and developed its armed forces so that they could protect citizens, that would have been one thing. But no government ever did that. Ireland has long had one of the lowest defence budgets in Europe. Today, only Luxembourg among the 28 members of the EU spends less of its national income on defending itself.

It wont let me put in link ?

LordSutch

bear1 wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/raf-tornado-jets-could-shoot-down-hijacked-planes-in-irish-airspace-414646.html

Lost for words that we can't defend our own airspace and rely on another country, and a country that will leave the EU, because the Government can't be bothered to replace the rotary yokes parked in Baldonnel.

Question; Do those propeller "rotary yokes" as you call them have guns fitted? or can they be retro fitted? http://moore-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Airshow-ww2-33.jpg

Gatling

LordSutch wrote: »

Question; Do those propeller "rotary yokes" as you call them have guns fitted? or can they be retro fitted? http://moore-photographs.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Airshow-ww2-33.jpg

They can be fitted with gun pods and 3in rockets
As seen below


http://flyinginireland.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Air-Corps-armed-PC-9-262.jpg

Peregrinus

The flying mouse wrote: »

State's first duty is to provide for the security of its citizens. If Ireland had done what neutrals, such as Sweden and Switzerland, had done and developed its armed forces so that they could protect citizens, that would have been one thing. But no government ever did that. Ireland has long had one of the lowest defence budgets in Europe. Today, only Luxembourg among the 28 members of the EU spends less of its national income on defending itself.

Yes, but you could double, triple or multiply by ten the amount that Ireland spends on military matters and it still wouldn't "provide security". Basically, we could never defeat the UK in a conventional conflict, and we could never defeat any enemy that could defeat the UK to get to us. Therefore we are either deluding ourselves or lying to others if we imagine that Ireland can provide security to its inhabitants through conventional military strategy and, given that, a large military expenditure would be a colossal waste.

bear1

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Yes, because changing from an insignificant player in the air to housing an operational jet fighter fleet, and suddenly becoming a legitimate target for Russia in the event of war would be a sensible thing to do.

Why pray tell would Russia consider us a legitimate target?
We are of zero threat to Russia even if we had jets and furthermore do you really think Russia or the EU would engage in a war?

bear1

Gatling wrote: »

It's recommended that each counties spend 2 % of GDP be spent on defense ,
We would struggle in the air and Sea where we have very limited resources ,

Just compare with Denmark island nation similar population and economics ,

They spend €3 billion per annum on defense they have a decent size air force with multiple types of aircraft from F16s to various other aircraft and a navy with 64 vessels ,

We have 6 naval vessels , 7 turbo prop pc9 aircraft and 2 casa maritime patrol aircraft and a few helicopters.
With a current spend of 800 million ,
The government currently spends €640 million on over seas aid

As selfish as it sounds, maybe that money would be better suited to it's own citizens first. 640 million a year in aid is a lot of bloody tax money.

Skylinehead

bear1 wrote: »

As selfish as it sounds, maybe that money would be better suited to it's own citizens first. 640 million a year in aid is a lot of bloody tax money.

It does sound pretty selfish when you want the money to be spent on fast jets we just don't need.

bear1

Skylinehead wrote: »

It does sound pretty selfish when you want the money to be spent on fast jets we just don't need.

That is some leap there, can you quote where I said overseas aid money should be used to beef up our aircorp? Or are you just looking to twist things any way you please?

Gatling

Skylinehead wrote: »

It does sound pretty selfish when you want the money to be spent on fast jets we just don't need.

Is it selfish when corrupted African countries spend our over seas aid money on arming their own militaries ,

Skylinehead

bear1 wrote: »

That is some leap there, can you quote where I said overseas aid money should be used to beef up our aircorp? Or are you just looking to twist things any way you please?

I'm jumping to conclusions slightly yes. However, all you've proposed in this thread is:

1. Buy Jets
2. Stop overseas aid

I added 2+2 together...

Gatling wrote: »

Is it selfish when corrupted African countries spend our over seas aid money on arming their own militaries ,

True, a lot of aid is horribly mismanaged.

beach_walker

Ireland's history of non-alignment is interesting. Seems the main holdout against joining NATO initially was due to the North (Ireland wanted a bi-lateral defence pact with the US only), and from that our "neutrality" emerged. I think this position has grown more and more due to seeing the good work that our peace-keepers do, the desire not to be involved in the numerous disastrous wars that other Western countries have found themselves in and the lessened threat from the East which probably seemed a lot bigger in the 50's.

IIRC Haughey was open to NATO membership if we got the North ( :pac: ), Bertie faced opposition to signing up to the Partnership for Peace (helped that NATO had just earned some good points from the trouble in Kosovo/Balkans), Young Fine Gael proposed joining the alliance recently but apart from that I don't see any evidence that there's political will or a general public swell to change the status quo.

Leaving aside the cost, I don't think we should be aiming for NATO membership. We do more good in the world with our current position.

Jawgap

beach_walker wrote: »

Ireland's history of non-alignment is interesting. Seems the main holdout against joining NATO initially was due to the North (Ireland wanted a bi-lateral defence pact with the US only), and from that our "neutrality" emerged. I think this position has grown more and more due to seeing the good work that our peace-keepers do, the desire not to be involved in the numerous disastrous wars that other Western countries have found themselves in and the lessened threat from the East which probably seemed a lot bigger in the 50's.

IIRC Haughey was open to NATO membership if we got the North ( :pac: ), Bertie faced opposition to signing up to the Partnership for Peace (helped that NATO had just earned some good points from the trouble in Kosovo/Balkans), Young Fine Gael proposed joining the alliance recently but apart from that I don't see any evidence that there's political will or a general public swell to change the status quo.

Leaving aside the cost, I don't think we should be aiming for NATO membership. We do more good in the world with our current position.

Fitzer had the best tilt at moving us towards NATO membership but it's doubtful we'd be accepted. Much of the same arguments that applied in respect of withholding membership from Spain apply even more to Ireland.

The 'greatest' (and it's not really that great) existential threat to any country in western Europe at the moment is Russia (ISIS/IS are not really that much of a threat and are not even close to being an existential one) - we are far away from Russia, so hardly on the 'frontline' - therefore NATO don't need us and we really don't need them.

Somebody will pop up and mention Shannon but truth is the US & Canada send aircraft back and forth all the time without having to use Shannon - it's a 'nice-to-have' rather than a 'have-to-have' for them.

bear1

Skylinehead wrote: »

I'm jumping to conclusions slightly yes. However, all you've proposed in this thread is:

1. Buy Jets
2. Stop overseas aid

I added 2+2 together...



True, a lot of aid is horribly mismanaged.

I also proposed possibly joining NATO, allowing other EU countries to base their craft here.
Here is another proposal, allow Baldonnel to also accept business jets so that they can also earn some extra cash for themselves to reinvest for themselves.
I am also not the only one to hint at the overseas aid part but yet you focused on me. Fair enough.
And if you re-read everything I said I didn't come out with a "lets just buy jets and fcuk the rest".
I posed my opinion and I've gotten answers in return which explain the costs.
You didn't add 2+2, you exaggerated.
Also, if you believe that the amount of money we provide in aid per year is mismanaged would you agree then that it would be of better use to us then to possibly give it to governments who will use it for weapons?

cena

I'm all for the RAF helping us

ohnonotgmail

bear1 wrote: »

I also proposed possibly joining NATO, allowing other EU countries to base their craft here.
Here is another proposal, allow Baldonnel to also accept business jets so that they can also earn some extra cash for themselves to reinvest for themselves.
I am also not the only one to hint at the overseas aid part but yet you focused on me. Fair enough.
And if you re-read everything I said I didn't come out with a "lets just buy jets and fcuk the rest".
I posed my opinion and I've gotten answers in return which explain the costs.
You didn't add 2+2, you exaggerated.
Also, if you believe that the amount of money we provide in aid per year is mismanaged would you agree then that it would be of better use to us then to possibly give it to governments who will use it for weapons?

what, so our government can mismanage it instead?

bear1

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what, so our government can mismanage it instead?

Well yes if other countries are using it to arm themselves instead of giving it to the people who really need it then yes I'd much rather our government kept it.
Which do you prefer?

ohnonotgmail

bear1 wrote: »

Well yes if other countries are using it to arm themselves instead of giving it to the people who really need it then yes I'd much rather our government kept it.
Which do you prefer?

are they?

Gatling

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are they?

Yes they are one government that we gave overseas aid went towards mig jets ,

We can't even have one yet let's help other buy jets

bear1

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are they?

Do you know of a country called Uganda?

ohnonotgmail

bear1 wrote: »

Do you know of a country called Uganda?

i do. i also know that we suspended aid to them when the €4M went missing. what you seem to be proposing is that we suspend all international aid because some of it was misused. which would be a disproportionate response.

AndyBoBandy

bear1 wrote: »

Why pray tell would Russia consider us a legitimate target?
We are of zero threat to Russia even if we had jets and furthermore do you really think Russia or the EU would engage in a war?

Well, seeing as how you had us joining NATO...

I'll let you do the math.
(have a look as to why NATO primarily came about, clue: it wasn't for fear of an attack from North Korea)

bear1

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Well, seeing as how you had us joining NATO...

I'll let you do the math.
(have a look as to why NATO primarily came about, clue: it wasn't for fear of an attack from North Korea)

I dont recall signing our allegiance to nato.
I simply asked about its possibility.
I know exactly how nato came about so I don't need to look anything up.
Also, with the UK tasked in defending our airspace and the UK being a member of nato we would still be seen as a potentially legitimate target for Russia.

AndyBoBandy

bear1 wrote: »

If Ireland say joined NATO tomorrow, what benefits would it bring to our military and air force?

It would make us a potential target for Russia

bear1 wrote: »

After thinking about it more I also think maybe we could open baldonnel to other eu forces to base craft there.

and thus house a NATO airbase in Ireland, see my comment above (maybe not a NATO base, but Russia won't see it that way, particularly if they are NATO birds housed here)

bear1 wrote: »

I dont recall signing our allegiance to nato.
I simply asked about its possibility.

And I responded with what that would entail (becoming a legitimate target for Russia)

bear1 wrote: »

Also, with the UK tasked in defending our airspace and the UK being a member of nato we would still be seen as a potentially legitimate target for Russia.

If Russia attack, I think their priority would the the U.K. not Ireland, whats in Ireland that is strategic for the RAF?

bear1

Ok I see your point now a bit more.
Re the rafs interests, well they could be interested in our airspace due to it being the weakest point in the eu or as far as the raf is concerned it would be an easy way to approach the UK.
Another might be cobh as it has quite good clearance for navies to dock.
So Russia could see that as a target.
Didn't Churchill ask for use of cobh during ww2?

Slightly off-topic but I saw a couple of members of the U.S. Navy in Dublin today wearing service dress blues.

Not to be too pedantic, but is that a little inappropriate?

I know that in cases of funerals in Ireland for members of the British army, the representatives of the British army seek permission from the Government to attend in uniform. Maybe the U.S. Navy extended the same courtesy request, but I don't see why they should feel the need to go about in uniform here.

I know there is an American ship docked in Dublin at the moment, but shouldn't these guys wear civilian clothing when walking around the city?

Brave_Horatius

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Slightly off-topic but I saw a couple of members of the U.S. Navy in Dublin today wearing service dress blues.

Not to be too pedantic, but is that a little inappropriate?

I know that in cases of funerals in Ireland for members of the British army, the representatives of the British army seek permission from the Government to attend in uniform. Maybe the U.S. Navy extended the same courtesy request, but I don't see why they should feel the need to go about in uniform here.

I know there is an American ship docked in Dublin at the moment, but shouldn't these guys wear civilian clothing when walking around the city?

The Russians wear their dress uniforms when their docked, why would the Americans not?

If anything it minimises trouble because they're readily identifiable.

Brave_Horatius

Brave_Horatius wrote: »

The Russians wear their dress uniforms when their docked, why would the Americans not?

I'd apply the exact same hesitancy about Russian military presence in Ireland. I think it's inappropriate, and disrespectful, for a foreign military to have its members go about another country in uniform, as a general rule.

Obviously in cases of ceremonies or where they are engaged in military activity, that's different.

If they're simply coming to town for a walkabout, I think any member of any foreign armed forces should show the basic respect to wear civilian clothes.

BoJack Horseman

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'd apply the exact same hesitancy about Russian military presence in Ireland. I think it's inappropriate, and disrespectful, for a foreign military to have its members go about another country in uniform, as a general rule

Bizarre.

Navies require that their officers at least wear their dress uniform when visiting foreign ports.
Comporting themselves in their best attire is seen as a sign of respect to their hosts.

You might be on your own in thinking that a foreign naval officer is "disrespectful" for wearing their best uniform.

John Mongo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

they can join the RAF. they cannot become pilots.

Yes, they can.

The nationality requirements in the RAF for certain trades were changed this year, to include citizens of the Republic of Ireland. The nationality requirements for Pilots was one of those which were changed.

bear1

bear1 wrote: »

RAF could shot down hijacked planes in Irish airspace

Am I the only one here who has heard of the Tuskar Rock crash in 1968, when a British missile was widely if not universally believed to have been the cause of all 61 passengers on board an Aer Lingus plane being killed?

Tuskar Rock 1968

ThisRegard

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Slightly off-topic but I saw a couple of members of the U.S. Navy in Dublin today wearing service dress blues.

Not to be too pedantic, but is that a little inappropriate?

I know that in cases of funerals in Ireland for members of the British army, the representatives of the British army seek permission from the Government to attend in uniform. Maybe the U.S. Navy extended the same courtesy request, but I don't see why they should feel the need to go about in uniform here.

I know there is an American ship docked in Dublin at the moment, but shouldn't these guys wear civilian clothing when walking around the city?

Is it your first time seeing this? They're a regular appearance in Dublin. No idea why someone feels it inappropriate.

ohnonotgmail

John Mongo wrote: »

Yes, they can.

The nationality requirements in the RAF for certain trades were changed this year, to include citizens of the Republic of Ireland. The nationality requirements for Pilots was one of those which were changed.

Why dont you check for yourself https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/how-to-apply/eligibility-check/

Select Pilot in the list of roles and it says

You must be a citizen of the United Kingdom or holder of dual UK/ other nationality.

Whether or not you were born in the United Kingdom, you should have resided there for the 5 years immediately preceding your application.

LordSutch

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I the only one here who has heard of the Tuskar Rock crash in 1968, when a British missile was widely if not universally believed to have been the cause of all 61 passengers on board an Aer Lingus plane being killed?

Its a sensational claim alright, but it holds very little water in the real world.

Peregrinus

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I'd apply the exact same hesitancy about Russian military presence in Ireland. I think it's inappropriate, and disrespectful, for a foreign military to have its members go about another country in uniform, as a general rule.

Obviously in cases of ceremonies or where they are engaged in military activity, that's different.

If they're simply coming to town for a walkabout, I think any member of any foreign armed forces should show the basic respect to wear civilian clothes.

Standard good practice for all countries' navies to wear dress uniform in foreign ports. As others have said, it's considered a courtesy to the host country. Side-arms (if normally part of the uniform) are not worn, though.