Good News for CCS users

cros13

So Castlebar is up today and the chargers in both directions on the M1 are being swapped out today.
So that makes the trip up north a whole lot easier.... just ten days after I had to make that trip using L2 charging :rolleyes:

But good news overall. Noticed that both Lusk and Castlebellingham seem to be re-concreted with the old level two charging post locations being set up for second rapid chargers.

stesaurus

Another upgrade today in Kildare on the M4 heading West. I presume this means another triple head?

Seems to be a flurry of activity. Any idea why?

BoatMad

s.welstead wrote: »

Another upgrade today in Kildare on the M4 heading West. I presume this means another triple head?

Seems to be a flurry of activity. Any idea why?

commnets on boards pushed them into massive action !!!:)

I'm just worried about Budget day, it's fast approaching and if there is no announcement of serious funding for the charging network then I fear the ESB will sell the network and wipe their hands clean of it altogether.

steelboots

I just fear with this "make shift" government the whole area of EV's and general green initiatives will not get the focus it deserves. Great to see some improvements, but more are needed.

The best would actually be if some good crowd like fastned would take over. I really like their infrastructure vs. pricing (4 plans ranging from "high per kWh, no fixed charge" to "free per kWh, high per month") ratio in Holland.

cros13

samih wrote: »

"high per kWh, no fixed charge" to "free per kWh high per month"

One of the things I really like about FastNed is that they charge per kWh, not per minute.

Thaks cros13. Yeah, was thinking the old ESB model while writing and wrote "minute" instead of kWh.

Hmm, as charger power eventually increases to at least double you pretty much get nearly twice the energy for the same amount of time on the charger.

Supercharger power for instance, about 110 Kw that's a lot of power you would get in 30 mins compared to a Leaf !

Rafal

For what it may be worth, both west and eastbound M4 Enfield have been converted to triple-head, and a second concrete pedestal had appeared with a green sign "new charger coming soon" but all of it was completely powered off and unavailable. Glad I made it to Lucan on my way back—ESB map and phone support person were showing eastbound Enfield as active (now updated to out of service both directions).

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Hmm, as charger power eventually increases to at least double you pretty much get nearly twice the energy for the same amount of time on the charger.

Supercharger power for instance, about 110 Kw that's a lot of power you would get in 30 mins compared to a Leaf !

But:

That won't be the case for a few years and will vary by location.

The amount of power you'll get within that time will still vary by vehicle, battery SoC, battery health, charger model, charger settings, weather and position of venus in the zodiac.

All the charge per minute model allows is a minor benefit in charger availability and it adds massive opportunity for ESB et al to conceal the true price of a charge.

BoatMad

Charging by the minute is unfair and unreasonable

cros13

Enfield westbound now up. I'm here with Carra and taking the first official charge.

cros13

cros13 wrote: »

But:

That won't be the case for a few years and will vary by location.

The amount of power you'll get within that time will still vary by vehicle, battery SoC, battery health, charger model, charger settings, weather and position of venus in the zodiac.

All the charge per minute model allows is a minor benefit in charger availability and it adds massive opportunity for ESB et al to conceal the true price of a charge.

We don't know how long it will take for higher power chargers and cars with higher charging capability to be available and whatever the battery, temps etc on average a substantial amount of power can be got in the same time.

Most people won;t buy electric cars until range improves substantially, possible the 300 Km range of electrics due in another 1.5 years or so might persuade a lot more to change depending on cost, most people will rarely see any form of Public charging and if they do it will be rare the problem of course if for those with no home charging.

BoatMad

I see no real reason why higher power batteries will necessarily result in fewer usesagrs of the charger network.

Firstly , one presumes that with average commute under 35 km , those not using the FCP network will not be using them today or tomorrow irrespective of battery power.

Secondly with more EVs on the road the actual inuse time for fcps will undoubtably rise. This will lead to increased congestion.

And thirdly, becuae of price points , there will continue to be substantial sales of smaller capacity batteries and therefor a demand from these users to use the FCP network on longer journeys.


The net result is right now we probably have the best it's ever going to get for a few years. Currently there is s reasonable match between the car and the FCP. However tech developments could make the esb charger network technically outdated very fast. It's unclear therefore where the capital upgrade monies will be found.

This could easily result in a stagnation of the FCP network. There are other minor points , like many sites particularly in filing stations don't have the room to expand the number of charge points. Etc.

I think it will be a huge challenge to grow and expand the charger network as the technology will demand.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I see no real reason why higher power batteries will necessarily result in fewer usesagrs of the charger network.

Higher capacity I assume you meant, if you got 300-350 kms range you won't use the chargers frequently unless you drive more than 350 kms in a day frequently, then most likely you're a sales rep or you need to move a lot closer to work.

BoatMad wrote: »

Firstly , one presumes that with average commute under 35 km , those not using the FCP network will not be using them today or tomorrow irrespective of battery power.

I'm certainly not saying this but even those driving 35 kms daily won't see a DC charger daily even with the current Gen electrics, they would use the network more for long trips, but it wouldn't be frequent or maybe once a week, probably less. There will always be the exceptions of course but these won;t be rushing to buy any 100-200 Km range EV in the first place.

BoatMad wrote: »

Secondly with more EVs on the road the actual inuse time for fcps will undoubtably rise. This will lead to increased congestion.

Increased congestion due to more numbers of electrics not due to the need to charge frequently.

BoatMad wrote: »

And thirdly, becuae of price points , there will continue to be substantial sales of smaller capacity batteries and therefor a demand from these users to use the FCP network on longer journeys.

"continue to be substantial sales of smaller capacity batteries" ?

EV sales in Ireland ate woefully pathetic. No one is rushing to buy 24-30 Kwh leafs nor 40 Kwh I expect either if the rumoured 40 Kwh Leaf battery becomes a reality.

BoatMad wrote: »

The net result is right now we probably have the best it's ever going to get for a few years. Currently there is s reasonable match between the car and the FCP. However tech developments could make the esb charger network technically outdated very fast. It's unclear therefore where the capital upgrade monies will be found.

It's as simple as this, unless there is a way for the ESB to make money, there won't be an EV network better than what we have today.

BoatMad wrote: »

I think it will be a huge challenge to grow and expand the charger network as the technology will demand.

It will be a lot harder without funding, the October budget is approaching fast and I seriously doubt the Government have any thought about electric cars or the infrastructure. Though we do get a 5 K grant and 5 K VRT relief which is significant but we also have to pay 23% VAT which is ridiculous. They should eliminate VRT altogether for electrics and reduce VAT if they're serious about increasing EV sales.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Higher capacity I assume you meant, if you got 300-350 kms range you won't use the chargers frequently unless you drive more than 350 kms in a day frequently, then most likely you're a sales rep or you need to move a lot closer to work.



I'm certainly not saying this but even those driving 35 kms daily won't see a DC charger daily even with the current Gen electrics, they would use the network more for long trips, but it wouldn't be frequent or maybe once a week, probably less. There will always be the exceptions of course but these won;t be rushing to buy any 100-200 Km range EV in the first place.



Increased congestion due to more numbers of electrics not due to the need to charge frequently.



"continue to be substantial sales of smaller capacity batteries" ?

EV sales in Ireland ate woefully pathetic. No one is rushing to buy 24-30 Kwh leafs nor 40 Kwh I expect either if the rumoured 40 Kwh Leaf battery becomes a reality.



It's as simple as this, unless there is a way for the ESB to make money, there won't be an EV network better than what we have today.



It will be a lot harder without funding, the October budget is approaching fast and I seriously doubt the Government have any thought about electric cars or the infrastructure. Though we do get a 5 K grant and 5 K VRT relief which is significant but we also have to pay 23% VAT which is ridiculous. They should eliminate VRT altogether for electrics and reduce VAT if they're serious about increasing EV sales.

The solution is simple. Publicly fund the charger network over the next 5 years and leave any consideration of a pricing regime until we have a critical mass of EVs that can then support a form of commercial activity ( which not be to pay for the electricity )

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

The solution is simple. Publicly fund the charger network over the next 5 years and leave any consideration of a pricing regime until we have a critical mass of EVs that can then support a form of commercial activity ( which not be to pay for the electricity )

It's a simple solution to you and I but the Government are not green minded people.

Probably the most green minded politician is Eamon Ryan but to me his Green Ideas are off the wall.

I heard a bit of him on Matt Cooper last week trying to blame the car manufacturers for lying about emissions when they were talking about Diesel being a mistake, first off it was well known for years about the dangers of Diesel exhaust but the Government at the time had to follow the way the rest of the E.U was doing and not for Green reasons. Quiet pathetic listening to him really.

Anyway, the Budget is approaching fast and approving funding for the network will be a very difficult thing for the Government to swallow. They are not in the business of giving, the Budget is about cuts and tax increases and things like "environment" are not popular with the Government, time will tell of course.

There are other issues like eliminating VRT completely and cutting VAT, this would make electrics a lot more attractive to buy.

I think at best we might see charges eliminated for now, but I can't see them providing funding for the network.

All this of course isn't a guarantee to the ESB, they want return on investment and investors are not going to make a loss, they might sell the Network eventually, and I bet it will be a U.K company who buy it though here's the catch, without return on investment not even a U.K company would bother unless there were a lot of electrics on the road.

It's really down to the Government in Budget 2016. Time to get on to your TD.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's a simple solution to you and I but the Government are not green minded people.

Probably the most green minded politician is Eamon Ryan but to me his Green Ideas are off the wall.

I heard a bit of him on Matt Cooper last week trying to blame the car manufacturers for lying about emissions when they were talking about Diesel being a mistake, first off it was well known for years about the dangers of Diesel exhaust but the Government at the time had to follow the way the rest of the E.U was doing and not for Green reasons. Quiet pathetic listening to him really.

Anyway, the Budget is approaching fast and approving funding for the network will be a very difficult thing for the Government to swallow. They are not in the business of giving, the Budget is about cuts and tax increases and things like "environment" are not popular with the Government, time will tell of course.

There are other issues like eliminating VRT completely and cutting VAT, this would make electrics a lot more attractive to buy.

I think at best we might see charges eliminated for now, but I can't see them providing funding for the network.

All this of course isn't a guarantee to the ESB, they want return on investment and investors are not going to make a loss, they might sell the Network eventually, and I bet it will be a U.K company who buy it though here's the catch, without return on investment not even a U.K company would bother unless there were a lot of electrics on the road.

It's really down to the Government in Budget 2016. Time to get on to your TD.

Given the vrt relief on moderately priced EV cars effectively removes it. I can't see how any additional " reduction " improves things. There is little resistance to buying 20-25 K cars by the public in general if one looks st recent sales

I fail to see the purpose of removing all vrt on say a €100k tesla.

The big advantage at present to spur EV take up is the very low cost per mile. That should be retained in the foreseeable future. The alternative is to seriously load costs on diesel and petrol motoring , but I can't see that happening politically

The cost running the charging network could easily be carried by the state for a number of years.

Other incentives , like access to bus lanes , mandatory free parking while actively charging on council parking spaces etc are extremely low cost or zero cost initiatives.

Much to be done

Free parking while charging ? for up to 7 hrs ? no, that's a waste of a charge point to be honest but I'd be more in favour of free parking for 2-3 hrs absolute max.

See free parking will only encourage locals into free town parking spots and I feel they should be more available for those coming from out of town, I don't think any EV owner would resist paying for parking if they can get a space easier, however in Dublin it might be a different matter where on street parking could cost a lot more.

The solution would be much more AC charge points but the ESB have abandoned AC points for now at least. I think by the time people buy electrics in any decent numbers the range will be 300+ kms and most people will want faster DC only.

I'm not sure EV driving in Bus lanes would work out, but free tolls would be good.

A big sell for electrics would be to ban the oldest of diesels in towns and cities, especially those with no DPF. There's some seriously dirty diesels on our roads including vans and buses.

A phase out of diesels starting with a yearly motor tax and VRT increases only a significant yearly increase , however for now there isn't much choice available so you really can't have such tax increases though they could decrease tax on petrol to compensate until the time comes where there's a lot of choice of electric models available.

I am really surprised not many Taxi drivers have caught on to the advantages of electric cars, they could install AC charge points at the ranks or DC chargers at the depots. They would get a decent charge in the car in an hour at 6.6 Kw. Add up the time they don't have fares and they could get significant charging.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Free parking while charging ? for up to 7 hrs ? no, that's a waste of a charge point to be honest but I'd be more in favour of free parking for 2-3 hrs absolute max.

See free parking will only encourage locals into free town parking spots and I feel they should be more available for those coming from out of town, I don't think any EV owner would resist paying for parking if they can get a space easier, however in Dublin it might be a different matter where on street parking could cost a lot more.

The solution would be much more AC charge points but the ESB have abandoned AC points for now at least. I think by the time people buy electrics in any decent numbers the range will be 300+ kms and most people will want faster DC only.

I'm not sure EV driving in Bus lanes would work out, but free tolls would be good.

A big sell for electrics would be to ban the oldest of diesels in towns and cities, especially those with no DPF. There's some seriously dirty diesels on our roads including vans and buses.

A phase out of diesels starting with a yearly motor tax and VRT increases only a significant yearly increase , however for now there isn't much choice available so you really can't have such tax increases though they could decrease tax on petrol to compensate until the time comes where there's a lot of choice of electric models available.

I am really surprised not many Taxi drivers have caught on to the advantages of electric cars, they could install AC charge points at the ranks or DC chargers at the depots. They would get a decent charge in the car in an hour at 6.6 Kw. Add up the time they don't have fares and they could get significant charging.

The experience on European countries that allowed access to bus lanes was it was a significant advantage in promoting EVs. It's also a no cost option

Tolls are a tiny part of motoring costs for many people , removing them would just benefit a few EVs that happen to pass through toll booths. Also road usage pricing is something I think we'll see a lot more of

( and it would be a lost revenue situation )

Politically, penalising diesels will not happen here.

Free car parking while charging is already s feature of many councils in iteland , it should be extended nationwide. There's no evidence it promotes any more abuse then anything else.

Most of our bus lanes are substandard, used by Taxi's and cyclists. I don't think they could take more traffic. Most buses have to stop on the lane to let passengers on and off with no room for the bus to pull in off the lane (mostly) so EV owners would be stuck behind.

Simple as this, Irish people want a lot range before they will even think about changing to ev no matter how short their daily driving is.

I'm for anything that will sell electrics but at the end of the day they will sell themselves when people deem them more than useless slow toys.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Most of our bus lanes are substandard, used by Taxi's and cyclists. I don't think they could take more traffic. Most buses have to stop on the lane to let passengers on and off with no room for the bus to pull in off the lane (mostly) so EV owners would be stuck behind.

Simple as this, Irish people want a lot range before they will even think about changing to ev no matter how short their daily driving is.

I'm for anything that will sell electrics but at the end of the day they will sell themselves when people deem them more than useless slow toys.

Many bus lanes are way under utilised and providing an incentive would encourage commuters to consider an EV.

It's not the only answer but all these things help. Range in itself is not the solution to the EV issue.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

Range in itself is not the solution to the EV issue.

Not to you and I but it is to the majority of people, that and recharge times. We're willing to adapt most people are not and there is no doubt in my mind that a 300 km EV is a lot more appealing to anyone considering EV even some anti ev people. Recharge will mainly take place at night even though it currently does for most short range ev owners today, as range improves more and more the need to recharge on the go becomes less and less. So probably recharge times become less of an issue.

Bus lane access may convince more people but I doubt it would attract large numbers to EV. All I'm saying is that on my travels to Dublin I can't see bus lane access work in a lot of areas but perhaps they can designate some Bus lanes for EV use where it might be suitable to add more traffic.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Not to you and I but it is to the majority of people, that and recharge times. We're willing to adapt most people are not and there is no doubt in my mind that a 300 km .

in my view " range anxiety " is a term that has gained popular use in media connected to EVs. Its entirely misplaced, it should be more correctly called " infrastructure anxiety" .

Most people based on the statistics , are not driving anywhere near the range of say a 30 Kwh Leaf on a habitual basis, therefore paying even more money for range that they might never use is foolish in the extreme.

The fact remains that even in a 60kwh mythical leaf, my range will be compromised if I try to drive to cork at 130Km on a motorway in the pouring rain in the dead of winter

all you'll hear from EV detractors is then " we need 500km range etc etc )

of course people forget that with FCP operating at fixed power ( as are domestic EVSEs) , larger batteries mean more time in charge mode too.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

in my view " range anxiety " is a term that has gained popular use in media connected to EVs. Its entirely misplaced, it should be more correctly called " infrastructure anxiety" .

Most people based on the statistics , are not driving anywhere near the range of say a 30 Kwh Leaf on a habitual basis, therefore paying even more money for range that they might never use is foolish in the extreme.

The fact remains that even in a 60kwh mythical leaf, my range will be compromised if I try to drive to cork at 130Km on a motorway in the pouring rain in the dead of winter

all you'll hear from EV detractors is then " we need 500km range etc etc )

of course people forget that with FCP operating at fixed power ( as are domestic EVSEs) , larger batteries mean more time in charge mode too.

The fact remains that @130 Kph you got a lot more range in a 60 Kwh than in a 24-30 Kwh........

Irish people want range and diesel is too cheap. The "road Tax" is cheap, most important decision for Irish people, cheap tax and diesel 2 most important things. As far as Irish people are concerned EV offers absolutely nothing of interest. Range is a huge issue for people here and the lack of choice.

My own family wouldn't consider EV, my partner doesn't even care about driving the Leaf and would happily pay for diesel to drive to shops etc.

My Brother happily drives his 2.0L Diesel A4 about 10 kms max a day in Dublin to the DART and back, EV ? no chance.

I tell you, even a 300 Km range EV is going to be a tough sell in Ireland, a 300 Km range EV is a "Compromise" in Ireland but no doubt will convince more people but not in huge numbers.

Even Opel Ireland e-mailed me saying they aren't going to add the Bolt/Ampera-E to their Irish fleet. Emphasising that they will continue to sell fuel efficient Diesels lol. The Bolt is going to be sold in limited markets anyway for the first year or two. Again, it's a small hatch not a proper family car.

A surge in fuel tax or Oil prices might make people consider EV but this is highly unlikely to happen again.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

The fact remains that @130 Kph you got a lot more range in a 60 Kwh than in a 24-30 Kwh........

Irish people want range and diesel is too cheap. The "road Tax" is cheap, most important decision for Irish people, cheap tax and diesel 2 most important things. As far as Irish people are concerned EV offers absolutely nothing of interest. Range is a huge issue for people here and the lack of choice.

My own family wouldn't consider EV, my partner doesn't even care about driving the Leaf and would happily pay for diesel to drive to shops etc.

My Brother happily drives his 2.0L Diesel A4 about 10 kms max a day in Dublin to the DART and back, EV ? no chance.

I tell you, even a 300 Km range EV is going to be a tough sell in Ireland, a 300 Km range EV is a "Compromise" in Ireland but no doubt will convince more people but not in huge numbers.

Even Opel Ireland e-mailed me saying they aren't going to add the Bolt/Ampera-E to their Irish fleet. Emphasising that they will continue to sell fuel efficient Diesels lol. The Bolt is going to be sold in limited markets anyway for the first year or two. Again, it's a small hatch not a proper family car.

A surge in fuel tax or Oil prices might make people consider EV but this is highly unlikely to happen again.

I dont disagree with anything in that reply , but I still think that " range" is a misplaced anxiety , its more a media focus then in reality an issue that affects many drivers

hence I dont believe that more battery ( at whatever costs ) will necessarily swing people to EVs. the only thing that will in my opinion is if there is a considerable benefit to their pocket. Thats ether done by making diesels dearer to own and run , or making EVs cheaper to run ( as they are now , but who knows long term )

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I dont disagree with anything in that reply , but I still think that " range" is a misplaced anxiety , its more a media focus then in reality an issue that affects many drivers

hence I dont believe that more battery ( at whatever costs ) will necessarily swing people to EVs. the only thing that will in my opinion is if there is a considerable benefit to their pocket. Thats ether done by making diesels dearer to own and run , or making EVs cheaper to run ( as they are now , but who knows long term )

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens, definitely, more choice might convince more people to switch, a small hatch isn't suitable for everyone, the Leaf is a bit small for us in reality and if we want to go away to the West or Southwest we just take the Diesel Cee'd. 70-80 miles range is pretty low for a long trip with a 2 year 3 month old and an 8 month old if you got to charge on route, 30 Kwh a bit better with it's faster charging. 60 Kwh a completely different ball game.

I guess the ultimate change to EV will come when car makers decide it's time we all should change.

BoatMad

Deedsie wrote: »

I agree, if there weren't service stations in every village, town & city in Ireland, ICE vehicles would have a similar range anxiety.

Why haven't service stations invested in electric vehicle charging points?

Two reasons

1. It's has been unclear what charging technology Europe is standardising around.

2. Unlike petroleum , people can generate electricity by all sorts of means hence as s business there is little security of future business , increased range could render much public recharging unnecessary.

I note done consideration is being given to raise diesel taxes to bring them level with petrol. They will soften the diesel market ho Ho

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I note done consideration is being given to raise diesel taxes to bring them level with petrol.

Over a 5 year period...... That will either A, convince people back to petrol or B, they'll just pay the extra 20 Cent per litre.

20 C/Litre isn't going to convince people to change to electric.

cros13

Deedsie wrote: »

Why haven't service stations invested in electric vehicle charging points?

Because, like petrol and diesel, there's no money in it. The profit margin on fuel is non-existent.

But petrol and diesel attracts customers to the shop. Whereas with EV rapid chargers you are spending ~€30-35k on a rapid charger and upgraded grid connection in the hope of attracting one or two of the ~1,000 or so EV drivers in Ireland who almost all do 95% of their charging at home anyway.

We'd have to be north of 25% of vehicles on the road being EVs for it to even start to be commercially viable.

A lot of Garages don't want them on site, non of the garages on the N7 would allow the ESB to install a charger on site. Reasons ? anyones guess, perhaps they didn't want people on site.

Charger location is a nightmare to the ESB and unfortunately it's easier to put them in shopping centres which is a very poor location.

Sorry, above I meant to say that garages may perhaps not want people on site after hours. Lots of places want to lock their premises up like a fortress.

Not a lot of point then.