Buses are the most inefficient mode of public transport

Pete Moss

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yeh there's no queue at all. It's a free for all. Every man or woman for him/herself. I'm usually good at making sure I'm in the first 2-3 as most people are just dozing looking at their phones or just don't keep on top of the game by anticipating where abouts the driver will stop the bus exactly. I get the bus home every day and almost always the driver stops about 5-10m past the stop, so I watch out for this and react first.

I also ALWAYS get a seat once I get past the battle of getting onto the bus. At the very least the middle seat at the back is always free, usually a few more too. People are too awkward/lazy/self conscious to just walk to the back and take a proper look rather than glancing from the top of the stairs.

Human behaviour is fascinating but also infuriating at times.

As I said, I usually get a seat on my route home and I've seen scuffles break out once or twice from people at a packed stop. It's crazy. I remember years ago Dublin Bus had long steel barriers near stops, particularly around O'Connell Street which at least gave some indication as to the way the queue should be formed and where the bus would be stopping. Now, as you said, depending on the stop a bus can pull in several metres from the stop, so it's a guessing game.

Another seating issue on buses, people who have to be asked to move their bags from a seat when a bus is jammed. It's a bag, not a baby, stick it on the ground or on your lap.

lil5

lxflyer wrote: »

Well when there's a 24 minute gap in the service on the 16 at the height of the morning peak, as there was this morning due to one bus not operating, which in turn led to a 36 minute gap for other people along the route due to the next bus being full after about 12-15 stops, it kind of grates.

Sounds just like a normal day on the 7 route ...
It kind of grates every day.
And even more so in the summer.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

Well let's be honest, how many times do you see buses broken down?

It tends very much to be the exception these days rather than the rule.

If there is a sudden spike in service cancellations, and when you begin to notice it as a regular passenger yourself, it's fairly obvious there is a staffing issue.

This problem has happened every year during the summer months for the past few years, but I've not noticed it as bad as this year before.

Maybe there is a spike in service cancellations, maybe there is'nt . All I've noticed is the usual service cancellations that DB inflict on us.

As a passenger i wouldn't be putting forward theories as to what might be causing service cancellations just because I don't see a bus on the side of the road broken down

What isn't helping on the university routes is that Dublin Bus seem to have done a deal with travel companies to use their regular routes for the thousands of spanish students who travel en masse from DCU and UCD etc

Must be a sickener for someone who pays for a leap and is taxed for a public bus service to see buses driving past full because they've been commandeered by a private company.

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA pay a PSO subsidy to them to operate the service - without it there would be no service full stop. They call the shots as they specify service levels. DB are now simply the operator.

Tenders are due to be awarded by the end of the year.

For 10% of routes as I understand it (now). So, operators tender for each route for a certain level of service, at a certain price, but they still have exclusivity I think? With the NTA getting between the service provider and the user, and the service provider not having any incentive to increase services, I think we need service level agreements between the NTA and the public. Someone mentioned Norway(?) where you get compensated in some way for poor service. So, if your bus doesn't turn up or is full, I think you should get compensated in some way.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe there is a spike in service cancellations, maybe there is'nt . All I've noticed is the usual service cancellations that DB inflict on us.

As a passenger i wouldn't be putting forward theories as to what might be causing service cancellations just because I don't see a bus on the side of the road broken down

What isn't helping on the university routes is that Dublin Bus seem to have done a deal with travel companies to use their regular routes for the thousands of spanish students who travel en masse from DCU and UCD etc

Must be a sickener for someone who pays for a leap and is taxed for a public bus service to see buses driving past full because they've been commandeered by a private company.

Anecdotal evidence - i.e. asking drivers, tends to support the theory - several drivers have indeed posted that some of the new drivers have left.

Hearing regular calls over the radio looking for drivers to work overtime too would support it too.

But sure you go on believing what you want as from what I can see you don't believe anything that I post regardless.

Tickityboo

@chivito550

I had an sg this morning and the only upper saloon seats I could see on my cab monitor was from one row in front of the stairs back.
I can only monitor the seats I can see so don't just assume that the drivers can't be arsed!!

hognef

plodder wrote: »

Someone mentioned Norway(?) where you get compensated in some way for poor service. So, if your bus doesn't turn up or is full, I think you should get compensated in some way.

Indeed. Oslo, Norway. Not necessarily in other areas. If you're left waiting more than 20 mins beyond the scheduled time, you're entitled to the cost of a taxi. I've never heard of buses there so full they can't/won't let you board.

howiya

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA pay a PSO subsidy to them to operate the service - without it there would be no service full stop. They call the shots as they specify service levels. DB are now simply the operator.

Tenders are due to be awarded by the end of the year.

Quick question on this. How dynamic, if at all, is the subsidy paid to DB? If they are paid to provide the service to a certain spec and fail to meet this do they get a reduced payment? Are the NTA paying for bus services that aren't provided?

punisher5112

howiya wrote: »

Quick question on this. How dynamic, if at all, is the subsidy paid to DB? If they are paid to provide the service to a certain spec and fail to meet this do they get a reduced payment? Are the NTA paying for bus services that aren't provided?

Db and others are fined if they fail.

Last year around 97% service was upheld

Dyr

punisher5112 wrote: »

Db and others are fined if they fail.

Last year around 97% service was upheld

I had an interesting conversation with a DB support guy when I asked him if the buses that were'nt running even though they still showed up on RTPI were being logged with TFI. He didn't know

I would wager at a guess that the official figures and the actual figures look different

pclive

There are ALWAYS seats upstairs!

You have all seen the 'shy' ones who climb to the top step, if they cant immediately see a seat within their limited view they retreat.

snickerpuss

Pete Moss wrote: »

As I said, I usually get a seat on my route home and I've seen scuffles break out once or twice from people at a packed stop. It's crazy. I remember years ago Dublin Bus had long steel barriers near stops, particularly around O'Connell Street which at least gave some indication as to the way the queue should be formed and where the bus would be stopping. Now, as you said, depending on the stop a bus can pull in several metres from the stop, so it's a guessing game.

I can think of very few stops in Dublin that only have one bus serving it. How do you form 1 queue for say 5 different buses?

KingBrian2

It will be good when they finally have the Luas line connecting Parnell Street/Bolton Street to Nassau Street on the Southside relieve the pressure on the Bus routes. The amount of congestion in Dame Street makes that area impassable not to mention Dorset Street, Marlborough Street And Connolly Station see very large delays in traffic at various times in the day.

Dyr

Had a perfect example of the madness that is overcrowding on dublin bus this lunchtime

Heading from o'connell street to merrion square with a large heavy box so I hop on a bus. Would normally sit upstairs but with the box I stow it on downstairs rack and stand

Upstairs is empty, downstairs is the usual mix of fogeys, not too busy

Tourist family get on with large suitcase, can't take it upstairs so all five of em stand downstairs, few more coffin dodgers and malingerers get on and stay downstairs

Next stop more tourists with bags, takes the driver so long to issue their fares by the time they get on there's another gang of tourists with bags wanting to get, rinse repeat for about 10 minutes and now downstairs is jam packed right up to the front door (not legal). At no point does the clown driving demand this lot head up the stairs. My stop is next, I have to beat me way up to the front to retrieve the box, the driver ignores that I have rung the bell in plenty of time and drives past my stop, I have to tell him to stop, he starts moaning that I'm supposed to exit through the middle doors. Now this clown knows I had to batter my way through the crowd he packed on to retrieve a box at the front so I remind him of some of the things he's supposed to do but didn't. I then carry the box down to the centre doors battering it off all the punters because there is no space. The upstairs saloon is still near empty

Now this highlights two problems: One dublin bus is packed with clowns like this.

More importantly, buses are no longer fit for purpose as a transport method for this city yet the government will keep piling them in as the cheap alternative to a proper rail solutions.

foggy_lad

Firstly you really should have sat upstairs after leaving your box in the parcel area, the tourists should have left maybe one person downstairs to stop the cases scooting around the floor but all the rest should have gone upstairs.

The main problem with tourists is that they have no idea of where they need to get off the bus so are staying downstairs to look out for their stop. Most are also used to trams at home and things like bendy buses with mostly standing capacity and multiple doors.

Dublin bus is not good for tourists, it is perfect only for commuters who know where they are going daily but anyone else is at a loss once they board the bus.

alias no.9

punisher5112 wrote: »

Db and others are fined if they fail.

Last year around 97% service was upheld

How was that measured?

Dyr

foggy_lad wrote: »

Firstly you really should have sat upstairs after leaving your box in the parcel area.

Screw that, I had a bag nicked off dublin bus back in the day. That ain't happening again.

foggy_lad

Bambi wrote: »

Screw that, I had a bag nicked off dublin bus back in the day. That ain't happening again.

Unfortunately peak time city buses are not designed for boxes or luggage, maybe a few items from the shop but not much else.

dfx-

pclive wrote: »

There are ALWAYS seats upstairs!

You have all seen the 'shy' ones who climb to the top step, if they cant immediately see a seat within their limited view they retreat.

There always are seats upstairs, but even when upstairs is empty, you have people who go upstairs and don't look down the bus. On certain routes, some people might not want to sit at the back upstairs...

But the problem is not the standing or the few seats upstairs. If a bus or route is operating at near full capacity (like almost every 16), then the running time or frequency or capacity is what needs fixing rather than human behaviour..

punisher5112

Isn't the old saying a full bus is a happy bus....

Dyr

foggy_lad wrote: »

Unfortunately peak time city buses are not designed for boxes or luggage, maybe a few items from the shop but not much else.

Midday is peak time now is it

horseburger

Bambi wrote: »

Had a perfect example of the madness that is overcrowding on dublin bus this lunchtime

Heading from o'connell street to merrion square with a large heavy box so I hop on a bus. Would normally sit upstairs but with the box I stow it on downstairs rack and stand

Upstairs is empty, downstairs is the usual mix of fogeys, not too busy

Tourist family get on with large suitcase, can't take it upstairs so all five of em stand downstairs, few more coffin dodgers and malingerers get on and stay downstairs

Next stop more tourists with bags, takes the driver so long to issue their fares by the time they get on there's another gang of tourists with bags wanting to get, rinse repeat for about 10 minutes and now downstairs is jam packed right up to the front door (not legal). At no point does the clown driving demand this lot head up the stairs. My stop is next, I have to beat me way up to the front to retrieve the box, the driver ignores that I have rung the bell in plenty of time and drives past my stop, I have to tell him to stop, he starts moaning that I'm supposed to exit through the middle doors. Now this clown knows I had to batter my way through the crowd he packed on to retrieve a box at the front so I remind him of some of the things he's supposed to do but didn't. I then carry the box down to the centre doors battering it off all the punters because there is no space. The upstairs saloon is still near empty

Now this highlights two problems: One dublin bus is packed with clowns like this.

More importantly, buses are no longer fit for purpose as a transport method for this city yet the government will keep piling them in as the cheap alternative to a proper rail solutions.

Your attitude stinks. You too will be a "coffin dodger" some day, and someone else, someday, may well make ill-informed assumptions about you, and consider you a "malingerer".

Perhaps, when you are a "coffin dodger", you might reference the following two items, to make the case for your use of various modes of public transport?

http://www.greenerjourneys.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Concessionary-travel-costs-and-benefits-September-2014.pdf

This article, https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/09/scrapping-free-bus-travel-older-people-cost, based on the above report, has a sub heading which states "Study finds that for every £1 spent on the bus pass, more than £2.87 of benefits for society and wider economy were generated".

Maybe all five members of the tourist family opted to stay together, perhaps because they may not have been sure of the location of their stop, so if one stayed downstairs and the other four were upstairs, the one downstairs, upon learning that their stop was next, may not have had time to go up the stairs to the others to tell them that their stop was next.

As Foggy_lad stated above:

foggy_lad wrote: »

Dublin bus is not good for tourists, it is perfect only for commuters who know where they are going daily but anyone else is at a loss once they board the bus.

Anyway, they weren't necessarily to know how full the bus would become as the journey progressed.

If four of the group of five tourists did go upstairs they'd have the same problems getting off the bus, as you, the problems you wanted to avoid, of getting through a crowded bus.

foggy_lad

Bambi wrote: »

Midday is peak time now is it

Lunchtime would be quite busy on many routes especially with the influx of foreign language students.

_Kaiser_

foggy_lad wrote: »

Unfortunately peak time city buses are not designed for boxes or luggage, maybe a few items from the shop but not much else.

And therein lies the problem, as well as the rest of his story with regards to tourists and luggage and potential theft

Double deck buses may suit DB for "packing em in" and ease of maintenance but they're not the most practical for certain routes. It's a pity they got rid of the articulated buses and didn't use them properly when they had them.

They really need to get over this nonsense of not using all doors as a starting point. I have heard all the arguments and it's just ridiculous when every other country seems to manage just fine with them. Plus when some drivers do, some dont, at certain stops, if a goat was sacrificed to the Gods the night before while the moon was in its third phase...... it's no wonder passengers head for the front by default every time.

ronn

They really need to get over this nonsense of not using all doors as a starting point. I have heard all the arguments and it's just ridiculous when every other country seems to manage just fine with them. Plus when some drivers do, some dont, at certain stops, if a goat was sacrificed to the Gods the night before while the moon was in its third phase...... it's no wonder passengers head for the front by default every time.[/quote]

Not all the bus stop are designed(long enough) for the centre doors to be opened, the ones that are usually have cars/vans blocking them.

I don't know what the fascination is with people standing beside the leap card reader is, blocking people getting on and off, I've asked people to move down the bus and I've called it out on the PA that there's seats upstairs, but the usual reply is I'm only going a few stops,
There's not really much else a driver can do,

markpb

ronn wrote:

Not all the bus stop are designed(long enough) for the centre doors to be opened, the ones that are usually have cars/vans blocking them.

Some bus stops are not suitable, the vast majority are just fine.

ronn

markpb wrote: »

Some bus stops are not suitable, the vast majority are just fine.

And the ones that are fine are usually blocked by vans or other buses,

If the entire bus can't get into the kerb we can't open the centre doors, it's a fairly big drop/step down if we're not at the kerb.

magicbastarder

ronn wrote: »

They really need to get over this nonsense of not using all doors as a starting point.

on most bus routes i use, i usually exit by the centre doors. i primarily use the 9, 4, 11 and 13, but could not say for certain if there's any pattern to which ones may have buses with centre doors.

Collie D

ronn wrote: »

And the ones that are fine are usually blocked by vans or other buses,

If the entire bus can't get into the kerb we can't open the centre doors, it's a fairly big drop/step down if we're not at the kerb.

That is the first time I have heard a valid reason for not opening centre doors..thank you

Kyleboy

punisher5112 wrote: »

Isn't the old saying a full bus is a happy bus....

More like an empty bus is a happy bus!!