Immersion switched OFF but ON

2012paddy2012 · 09-08-2016 10:05pm #1

I have just discovered today that my immersion may have been on for the last 7/8 years without my knowledge. Please correct me if I am wrong. I ALWAYS have the immersion control switch set to Off. I NEVER use it. Today I got a shock to discover the yellow led light showing on the unit.
I immediately presumed someone in the house had switched the control switch to ON. However I see it was switched OFF. Now I presume the immersion switch controls the unit. Please see pic. Whether the unit is switched on/off...on .timer ...with the On / Off ..in the ..OFF.. position the immersion switcheS ON. Should the immersion only come on ...when the ON/ OFF switch is in the ON position?
Can I take it the wires are all wired to the COMMON on the switch and the feed to the immersion included ...where it should be run through the switch wire ..in order to control the immersion? Advice appreciated....

milli milli · 09-08-2016 10:24pm

If the immersion was continuously on, the water in your system would be scalding hot.
One time my mother left the immersion on all weekend and there was hot water in the toilet!
I think you'd notice if the immersion was left on by that and also your electricity bill would be crazy.

But I'll let an electrician answer your question as these are just a layman's observations!

Steve · 09-08-2016 10:29pm

The clock is in the 'always on' position.

Steve · 09-08-2016 10:51pm

Sorry, re-read your post.

The immersion switch should, if wired correctly, override the clock as far as the immersion is concerned.

It's also possible that the circuit that keeps the clock ticking is separate to the power feed to the heater - the light on the clock being on may not necessarily mean the heater is on.

That's as much as I can diagnose without having a look at the wiring...

2012paddy2012 · 10-08-2016 8:31am

Thks. My view is if switch off. No power should be going to timer. The timer was on TIMED and the pips were down to allow water to heat for over an hour. It was I reckon coming on for over an hour every day. I will photo wiring this evening thks ..going to find Live disconnect anyway in switch..dont use it ..ta

2012paddy2012 · 10-08-2016 4:05pm

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Thks. My view is if switch off. No power should be going to timer. The timer was on TIMED and the pips were down to allow water to heat for over an hour. It was I reckon coming on for over an hour every day. I will photo wiring this evening thks ..going to find Live disconnect anyway in switch..dont use it ..ta

Ok see pics ....and wiring diagram..can anyone see issue !! There are 4 wires in...as per wiring diagram ...starting at no 1 ..blue brown brown black! The two earth's are ok...there is a blue at one corner ..if you can see it! .....thks

2012paddy2012 · 10-08-2016 4:06pm

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Thks. My view is if switch off. No power should be going to timer. The timer was on TIMED and the pips were down to allow water to heat for over an hour. It was I reckon coming on for over an hour every day. I will photo wiring this evening thks ..going to find Live disconnect anyway in switch..dont use it ..ta

Take up space take up space not allowing upload

2012paddy2012 · 10-08-2016 4:28pm

i never could attach photos on boards via laptop..only on phone ,,,,on the phone you get "attach files" very simple.
these are just photos you take on phone and email to laptop...here its all..please enter URL ,,etc etc ..whats that mean????

anyone know how to do this from a windows laptop???in simple terms thks

TheChizler · 10-08-2016 4:59pm

Is this a problem? Normally these switches operate in parallel to the timer, so if the switch OR timer is on the immersion comes on. The switch would override the timer for putting the immersion on, not off, effectively doing the same job as the "constant on" setting on the timer. Normally (in my experience) these bath/sink switches would be on an easily accessible wall, and the timer in a cupboard out of sight somewhere. In this setup with them next to each other it's a little redundant for the bath setting, but it allows you control over the sink setting.

Edit: Actually as someone pointed out, is it possible that the timer is for your boiler? Not the immersion? And by immersion I mean purely the electric elements in the hot water cylinder, I know several people who say they're putting the immersion on when they're actually switching the boiler on to heat water.

TheChizler · 10-08-2016 5:03pm

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

..going to find Live disconnect anyway in switch..dont use it ..ta

If you insist on doing this, and I don't think you should, please make sure the circuit is off first and check the live with a phase tester, and make sure the live is properly terminated and in no danger of touching anything, but also I don't think you should do this. Get an electrician out if you want to modify any wiring.

Bruthal · 10-08-2016 6:20pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Is this a problem? Normally these switches operate in parallel to the timer, so if the switch OR timer is on the immersion comes on. The switch would override the timer for putting the immersion on, not off, effectively doing the same job as the "constant on" setting on the timer. Normally (in my experience) these bath/sink switches would be on an easily accessible wall, and the timer in a cupboard out of sight somewhere. In this setup with them next to each other it's a little redundant for the bath setting, but it allows you control over the sink setting.

Edit: Actually as someone pointed out, is it possible that the timer is for your boiler? Not the immersion? And by immersion I mean purely the electric elements in the hot water cylinder, I know several people who say they're putting the immersion on when they're actually switching the boiler on to heat water.

The immersion switch won't be much of an isolator if another switching item is in parallel with it.

Effects · 10-08-2016 6:34pm

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Thks. My view is if switch off. No power should be going to timer.

If that was the case then the clock would lose the correct time when the IMM switch was off.

The timer should control power going to the IMM switch. If the IMM switch is off then it doesn't matter what the clock is doing.

TheChizler · 10-08-2016 6:56pm

Bruthal wrote: »

The immersion switch won't be much of an isolator if another switching item is in parallel with it.

But it's not an isolator (should it be?), I was taking the view that it's an additional control for turning it on.

ptogher14 · 10-08-2016 7:18pm

If the timeclock in the picture does control the immersion it's very possible the immersion switch is in series with the timeclock, with the timeclock controlling the switch. I've often come across this. If this is the case once you you had the switch in the off positionyour immersion won't have been on regardless of what the timeclock was doing

2012paddy2012 · 10-08-2016 8:17pm

Effects wrote: »

If that was the case then the clock would lose the correct time when the IMM switch was off.

The timer should control power going to the IMM switch. If the IMM switch is off then it doesn't matter what the clock is doing.

I just disconnected the whole lot. I presume the ON OFF switch is just for the immersion timer which is in hot press. I always presumed the ON / OFF SWITCH was just that. If off.. timer has no feed ...if you want timer on ...you just switch on/off to ON.
THEN select timer ..set correct time and away you go. or turn on immersion with on switch on the..timer..and off with off switch on timer....
I am unable to upload pics ....wiring seemed ok ...feed...two switch wires (for bath / sink) neutral wired in and earth's ..I don't know after that ..presuming all will be ok now

It does make sense that a permanent feed should go to timer ..for k eeping time correct ...ðŸ˜

Bruthal · 10-08-2016 8:43pm

TheChizler wrote: »

But it's not an isolator (should it be?), I was taking the view that it's an additional control for turning it on.

It's an isolator combined with a 2 way selector. Once the on/off switch on the immersion switch is off, nothing else should be able to energise the immersion elememt.

TheChizler · 10-08-2016 9:22pm

Bruthal wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

But it's not an isolator (should it be?), I was taking the view that it's an additional control for turning it on.

It's an isolator combined with a 2 way selector. Once the on/off switch on the immersion switch is off, nothing else should be able to energise the immersion elememt.

In that case I've a few ex landlords with unusual wiring arrangements!

2012paddy2012 · 10-08-2016 11:12pm

Bruthal wrote: »

It's an isolator combined with a 2 way selector. Once the on/off switch on the immersion switch is off, nothing else should be able to energise the immersion elememt.

If the switch is off. Referring to bath/sink..on/off unit.., the timer should not work on any setting is that correct?

Bruthal · 10-08-2016 11:23pm

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

If the switch is off. Referring to bath/sink..on/off unit.., the timer should not work on any setting is that correct?

With the immersion switch off, the timer can't switch the immersion on, when in a properly wired setup.

Steve · 10-08-2016 11:28pm

Yeah, unless the person that wired it was insane...

The pics look normal so the clock may be upstream (unlikely seeing as the T&E are present in the immersion switch)

Maybe its time to get a pro in.

Have you verified that the water is heating when the timer light is on but the switch is off?

2012paddy2012 · 11-08-2016 9:48am

Steve wrote: »

Yeah, unless the person that wired it was insane...

The pics look normal so the clock may be upstream (unlikely seeing as the T&E are present in the immersion switch)

Maybe its time to get a pro in.

Have you verified that the water is heating when the timer light is on but the switch is off?

Yes the on off switch was off. The immersion started heating when I switched timer control to ON.
ALL WELL now disconnected and in a connector block!
I still am curious to know.
Is there a permanent live supposed to fed the timer clock ..just to keep time correct.

Similar to live feed to car radio to hold stations / time etc...when car say parked overnight?

Steve · 12-08-2016 7:11pm

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Yes the on off switch was off. The immersion started heating when I switched timer control to ON.
ALL WELL now disconnected and in a connector block!
I still am curious to know.
Is there a permanent live supposed to fed the timer clock ..just to keep time correct.

Similar to live feed to car radio to hold stations / time etc...when car say parked overnight?

Yes, normally the clock motor would have a maintained feed.

Looks like whoever wired it originally was less than competent, they should be in series, not parallel.

TheChizler · 12-08-2016 7:45pm

Would it be acceptable if there was an isolator before the parallel arrangement?

Steve · 12-08-2016 9:39pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Would it be acceptable if there was an isolator before the parallel arrangement?

In my opinion, no.

I don't do domestic, so I'm speaking from an industrial standpoint. If you select any part of a circuit to 'off' then it should stay 'off'.

I have had the regrettable situation of being called in to advise on rectifying a circuit where this was not the case and someone lost their life because of it.

Bruthal · 13-08-2016 1:06am

TheChizler wrote: »

Would it be acceptable if there was an isolator before the parallel arrangement?

And what would the point of a parallel arrangement be?

TheChizler · 13-08-2016 2:10pm

Bruthal wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

Would it be acceptable if there was an isolator before the parallel arrangement?

And what would the point of a parallel arrangement be?

Could be handy if you wanted easy access to a switch on a wall but wanted to keep the timer hidden in a cupboard or something. Or maybe you wanted to add an additional control for home automation or something without removing the existing timer. Nothing wrong with it in a technical sense, I'm just unfamiliar with the regs. Is the rule more "you must have an overall isolator for a fixed appliance" or "you must not have multiple switches for a fixed appliance" or both?

Bruthal · 13-08-2016 4:12pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Could be handy if you wanted easy access to a switch on a wall but wanted to keep the timer hidden in a cupboard or something. Or maybe you wanted to add an additional control for home automation or something without removing the existing timer. Nothing wrong with it in a technical sense, I'm just unfamiliar with the regs. Is the rule more "you must have an overall isolator for a fixed appliance" or "you must not have multiple switches for a fixed appliance" or both?

There are uses of parallel wiring, the motorized valves on a heating system use it to bring on a boiler for example, if one or more of the valves are powered on.

But here, we are talking about an immersion isolator.

Fixed appliances require a local isolator.

14-08-2016 6:26pm

NUTLEY BOY · 17-08-2016 5:09pm

milli milli wrote: »

SNIP ...One time my mother left the immersion on all weekend and there was hot water in the toilet!

I am killed with curiosity - how did that happen ?

Sleeper12 · 17-08-2016 6:03pm

NUTLEY BOY wrote:

I am killed with curiosity - how did that happen ?

Water in the hot water cylinder came to the boil forcing hot water up the expansion pipe. Expansion pipe sits above the cold water tank in the attic. The hot water enters the cold water tank. This can happen if the thermostat on the element doesn't work

NUTLEY BOY · 19-08-2016 3:18pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Water in the hot water cylinder came to the boil forcing hot water up the expansion pipe. Expansion pipe sits above the cold water tank in the attic. The hot water enters the cold water tank. This can happen if the thermostat on the element doesn't work

So, does the cold water tank feed the W.C. cistern ?

Immersion switched OFF but ON

Comments