Berlin Q or Bust: Road to sub 2:45

healy1835

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Hope it clears up quickly. Looking forward to seeing how you get on in Raheny 5M

Thanks pal I think I'm pretty much out of the woods......looking forward to next Sunday. These sort of races are part of why we all train arent they? Hopefully will do myself justice and perform well. If that happens the time will come

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

Thanks pal I think I'm pretty much out of the woods......looking forward to next Sunday. These sort of races are part of why we all train arent they? Hopefully will do myself justice and perform well. If that happens the time will come

Wouldn't even worry about doing yourself justice. Run the best race you can on the day. The downside to running some of those incredible sessions is you can get caught up with doing the training justice in a race.

healy1835

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Wouldn't even worry about doing yourself justice. Run the best race you can on the day. The downside to running some of those incredible sessions is you can get caught up with doing the training justice in a race.

Oh yeah, the goal(s) haven't changed because of a couple of those track sessions. They were what they were, I know what I think I can do over 5miles and 10k and the next couple of weeks will be an opportunity to do it!! It's funny, a couple of those sessions would never have been done on the track only for me having to squeeze sessions in around all my picking up and dropping off when my wife couldn't drive. I'm actually looking forward to getting back on the roads/plains for some sessions!

healy1835

Sleep........man I am having a hard time of it over the last few months. Obviously things have been exacerbated to a certain extent recently due to my lovely wife's leg break, but with each disastrous nights sleep I feel myself inching towards some running related doom this is a little tongue in cheek, but all i keep seeing is articles and people saying how important sleep is to a runners routine. It hasn't, for the most part, effected my running so far, but I'm just uber tired in the mornings and fit for bed around 8pm these days. Whilst I look at AMK and DD and their marathon training at the moment and feel pretty jealous not to be in that process, I also know that I wouldn't be able for a marathon block right now with the current impact my lack of sleep is having.
At the end of the day there's a easy answer I think, and it's something along the lines of 'suck it up, you're the one who decided go all-in on the running front when you've 3 young kids inc a baby and busy job (this isn't mentioning the dog who takes great pleasure in getting me up during the night ) I don't even know what I'm trying to get across in this post actually......help!! any advice for me? naps and running less are non-runners....

Swashbuckler

I'm not surprised you're tired after reading that! Add to that two double days of running (or is it one?) and two sessions and a long run per week. You're definitely pushing the boat out in terms of pushing the limits.

If you're anything like me you won't want to hear this but you might consider scaling the running back slightly at least until things settle a bit elsewhere. You don't want to end up in a situation where you're burned out.

shotgunmcos

Any idea why you are not sleeping (that isn't kids, dog etc..)? I had a cocktail of steroids and nebulizers to blame for a couple of weeks then a cracked rib making it uncomfortable. On top of the usual 2 small kids shenanigans during the night. Doc said to stop the drugs and I've broken ribs only 2 years ago so knew a pregnant womans pillow set up would do the trick. That and ignoring the kids unless they arrived into the room with a torch!

So, long winded but fixable when you know what it is..

Another thing. I don't buy this 8 hours a night BS. You can lay there mind turning over for 8 hours and be more wrecked than ever. If its mind turning over there are lots of techniques to try, no caffeine, no phone, wind down, stop jobs etc. after a certain time

If its kids and the dog then yes, SIU.. and take naps whenever you can!

Agree with SB, what is your overall weekly load, all in? Are you at the threshold? What could go to give you more time/rest?

AuldManKing

From reading back over a couple of weeks training in your log, there are warning signs appearing!!

You seem to be doing fantastic sessions recently and that must give you a lot of confidence - plus a lot of expectation around specific types of sessions i.e. every session 'MUST' be a balls out session.

Its a bit of a cliche -but smart training is being talked about a lot - how to get the best from a session without feeling totally boll!xed afterwards or feeling that cumulative fatigue each and every day.

Personally - I think you run some of your sessions too fast and some with too little recovery.
As an example - the 5x1m recently - I still dont know what that was targeting, but it seemed very anerobic to me.
Also - the 16x400's off 45 seconds - I think 45 secs is too little for the pace you were doing.

General rule of thumb is that recoveries for a Vo2max session should be 50%-90% of the rep time.
Both the above sessions seem to be 'peaking sessions' as opposed to the beginning of Jan type sessions.

Anyway - my point is not to dissect your training (which I'm also jealous off, BTW) - its to say that I think you are pushing way harder than you need to.
How do you progress the above sessions?

If you listened to Scullions podcasts, he talks about being too fit for the body to handle - this could be a risk for you and possible overtraining with everything else going on.

When I was doing my MBA (with young kids,busy job.....way back when....) I worked out a running budget - how much time could I give to running in a week - and I built a plan around that - as opposed to the other way of trying to make everything fit around running - it meant I had to reassess my goals etc - but was ultimately the better decision.

Anyway - hopefully this is only a mini crisis and I'll see you doing 20x1mile at 4:50 pace (off 30secs) next week

healy1835

Thanks for all the above. Plenty to think about....if we place some of my sessions to one side (for the moment ), fitting in the runs hasn't been too much of a problem. When I don't run I feel worse tbh. My running load seems manageable at the moment, I mean 80-100k for the last few weeks hasn't felt all-consuming compared to the last 18months which has just been marathon block after marathon block.

I am going to try and back off a little and take an extra rest day if needs be. I'm also going to take leave of the track for a little while....the general consesnsus is that I've maybe gone too hard at these, and you know what, maybe I have. Is there a case that it's harder sometimes to regulate your pace/effort during a track session? I don't ask enough questions about my training, i should probably be a little more inquisitive it's not like I'm getting a plan without giving feedback to the man in charge though, so I'm still happy that I'm on the right track, but it's great to get input on here too.

So anyway, it's 16x1 mile @5:00 off 45secs this afternoon.....Will report back later. J

Duanington

Take it easy J, the sleep thing is a funny one - I suffer with it on occasion, after a race or after a good long run ( I do mine late on Mondays usually) - I cannot switch off and get to sleep.
A couple of years ago, I was training hard, training pretty well but sleeping $hite. At the time I didn't realise it but I was anemic.....now....I'm not saying for a minute that you're anemic ( you're probably not, judging by your sessions\race times) BUT

The lack of sleep was a symptom of under-recovery for me.....I'm reluctant to say over-training ( even though that's what it ultimately adds up to :rolleyes:).
I was stressing the system with training...but no more than I ever had before and had handled it fine then.
My body was trying to recover as it always had...but couldn't for some reason, in my case, the reason was down to a lack of Iron and my sleep pattern went out the window.

From memory, a changing sleep pattern is usually a flag from the nervous system, something, somewhere is out of balance and needs to be addressed.

My guess is that you just need to chill out for a little bit and actually focus on the recovery side of things. You won't lose any fitness at all and in fact, you'll gain from it. Sleep is something that I keep a close eye on these days, I'm not a great sleeper. Let the body wind down a bit, everything should settle and hopefully the sleep pattern comes back.

It's something I am very aware of these days, if I go through a week or so of poor sleep, I know something is up....and tend to slow down recovery runs, maybe drop a double day\session\whatever...the priority is to get the pattern back.

You do run sessions pretty hard alright and to do that week after week without a good night's sleep is hard...the cycle is broken at the moment.
Some people operate fine on poor sleep of course but it sounds like there's been a shift in the pattern here which is the flag for me.

**Edit....that's a verrrrry long winded way of me saying a big change in sleeping patterns usually means the body is talking to you**

Enjoy the 16x1 mile session, 5.20 pace or don't bother reporting back :pac:

healy1835

Might as well post some training here while I'm at it

Mon: 11k Easy: 50mins

A bit of a guess as regards the distance but it was definitely 50mins and I was bouncing around a very nippy Phoenix Park. Was in town for the Guardian Football Weekly show in the Liberty Hall theatre so got up early and got a run in.

Tue: AM 7.5k: 35:57@4:48/km
PM 7.5k: 34:31@4:36/km

Pair of chilly commutes.

Wed: Session: 4x200, 2x400, 800, 2x400, 4x200 off 60sec 3k w/u + c/d

Took to my regular tempo loop in the Camp for this. Wore my new Zoom Streaks, think I'll wear the old ones for Sunday and give these guys a couple more sessions to bed in as they didn't feel quite right for racing in just yet. Session was fine, had to manual lap as I couldn't quite figure out how to programme it into the Garmin. May have resulted in one or two reps or recoveries being slightly under or over.

4x200: 36,37,35,37

2x400: 77,71 (this was definitely a little short. I didn't just casually throw in a 71sec 400)

800: 2:37

2x400: 77,77 (first one short, second one long )

4x200: 36,37,37,??

Managed to do last 200 with watched stopped but it was definitely my fastest

Looking forward to Sunday now.

OOnegative

I’ll give my take on the sleep issue, all the advice offered so far is spot on, but it’s an issue you need to figure out yourself. We can all tell you what we did/didn’t do but every case is completely different. I honestly survived on 3 hours sleep a night for nigh on ten years before it caught up on me in another way that has no need to be discussed here.

I was given all the usual advice but it didn’t work till something clicked with me one night and it’s helped ever since. Your issue may need a little figuring out also.

Like shotgun said, 8 hrs a night is BS, we have two small ones to and anything remotely approaching 7 hrs is a great nights sleep for me, herself needs a bit more!!!

El CabaIIo

I kinda disagree with the lads on the 8 hour sleep thing although I do think the quality of sleep is also important. I remember Paula Radcliffe saying she used to sleep 12-14 hours a day. Obviously, she had the freedom to do that that others don't but generally people who are actively pushing their body need more sleep than those who don't, it's probably even more important for those are a little older than testosterone jacked people in their 20's and very early 30's. The very noticeable affects of going to sleep when you are tired and waking up feeling much fresher is probably the only evidence needed to show how important sleep is in recovery.

I'd be wary of sudddenly deteriorating sleeping patterns if you can't definetely link it to something else directly as Dauntington was talking about and indirectly as B was saying. When your body is under excessive physical or mental stress, it produces excess stress hormone cortisol which believe it or not is the fight or flight response. This creates a high level of alertness which makes sleep very difficult. Another effect of it is mood swings and those are both usually the first sign of underrecovering. The big problem is that it is a loop(a double edged sword) where you are already tired and need sleep to recover but you don't get it and by horsing on at full speed without it, you end up exacerbating the problem even more.

I don't know if that is your problem or what but the combination of hard sessions along with it would make me wary of that possibility and I think you should too. It's why I have a go at the mental toughness thing, sure there is an element of toughness HTFU in hanging in there in a race or getting runs in but often I think it is overvalued compared to listening to your body and interpreting the feedback it gives you. If you drive your body conciously into a place where your nervous system and physiology starts to suffer, there is nothing mental toughness can do but drag it further down.

Probably one of my favourite running quotes comes from a Cardiologist and star college athlete in his day who also set the over 50 age mile WR by some 15 seconds at one point and ran 5:08 at 60 was

"Listen to your body, don't be a blind and deaf tenant"

MY BAD

The harder and further I train the more I need to sleep. I love naps after a long run or big session! Nice turn over today, fair clipping. Good luck on Sunday it will be interesting to see how you get on.

shotgunmcos

Wow logs are really the place to hang out these days. Back in the day shoes "swashbucklers log" and sleep "this log" would have been main forum topics...

All good advice.. A suggestion below

Hush little runner boy go to sleep
Daddys gonna buy you a big pb
If those burning calves give out
Suck it up and eyeballs out!
1 mile, 2 miles, 3 sheep, 4 , 5 sheep, 6 sheep, 7 sheep, snore....

OOnegative

All the best tomorrow J, run well.

Swashbuckler

Have a great run today lad

healy1835

28:22........very happy with that. Will put something more substantial up later

healy1835

Raheny 5 Mile: 28:22 PB

There's no getting away from the fact that this was a big target race for me. Training has been going well, but as regular visitors to the log know, things have been a little frayed at the seams over the last month, so it was with a certain degree of trepidation that toed the line today. Overall though I was feeling pretty confident.

Parked in the sisters place near the super valu in Killester and ran the mile and a half with a club mate to the start. Got there about 2:50 and the start was pretty wedged. Got as far up as I could but I knew that i was too far back for comfort.....but there was feck all I could do about it now.

Hooter went off and we were away, i knew that the first few hundred metres would be hairy enough, and it took me about 15 seconds to get through the gantry. A car on the course made the first corner even more interesting, it's a slow enough start for me but I'm not panicking. Just then, two runners ahead of me, a guy and a lady, have a coming together and a pretty nasty fall. It looked like their races may have been run.....I'm settled down now out of traffic and motoring along. First mile passes in 5:42, which is ok. Was worried about going out too hard but the congestion took care of that problem for me.

The second and third miles are where I really didn't execute things very well. I got boxed in on multiple occasions, tagged onto a couple of groups that i took too long to realise were moving a bit slower than I wanted to move. The boxing in part was annoying. I haven't ran that any shorter races with this kind of crowd and I definitely have a lot of room to improve here. Miles 2&3 (5:47, 5:42).

Into the park and apart from a guy creasing himself on a cone which had been placed on a speed ramp, things were still going to plan. It's starting to to hurt and I'm feeling a little tired here tbh. 5:45 for Mile 4.

Up and down the avenue, can hear the commentator describing the closing stages and Mick Clohiseys victory, focuses me a bit. Lot of guys dropping back here and this gave me a good lift. Digging in now, out of the park and onto the last little loop. When I say this was a bit of a blur, I'm speaking literally here. Last 500m vision has got a bit fuzzy and im sort of clinging on. Bite down and close out with a 5:48 Mile for a time of 28:22. (Chip time was 28:28....Not sure what's going on there. Some people were talking about an 'Announcers Split' time on MyRunResults but I couldn't see one on my result.)

Anywho, not to worry about these minor details. A big PB for me and a satisfying performance. Again, it wasn't perfect, but Its given me the confidence that sub 28 is definitely on later in the year. Didn't see any boardsies which was a pity but loads of cracking performances on here by the looks of things on Strava. A great day

Swashbuckler

You literally ran the best race you could on the day and that's all you can ask of yourself. It's nice when it comes together. A few seconds here or there is nothing. That's a beaut of a run.

Duanington

lovely hurling, I was in St Anne's looking out for you but stupidly frogot your clubs colours

Definitely more to come off that this year but for now, its a quality run - well done, J

MY BAD

Great stuff well done man

AuldManKing

Great race, congrats on the execution - pity I missed you afterwards.

Singer

An unsurprisingly great run! Sounds like the start was as much of a mess up where you were.

OOnegative

Well done J, great PB & unsurprising as B said.

shotgunmcos

Christ another PB.. you are churning them out! Well done, solid pacing despite the congestion

jake1970

Congrats on the PB J, you are flying.

healy1835

Thanks peeps. A bit like AMK, having a bit of distance from the race does allow you to think a bit clearer about things. My biggest take aways from the race were:

- I went to 'that' place during the last 800m. I've talked a lot about doing it in a shorter race and this time I actually did. Getting boxed in a few times and a couple of bad decisions on what group to tag on to maybe cost me a sub 28min, but i didn't have anything left in the tank at the end.

- I'm getting more confident and agressive in races. Not necessarily just because I'm getting faster, but i dont build these races up as much as I used to. I know the training is there so if it happens it happens, if not there will be another chance to do it.

- I'm enjoying not training for a marathon, but I definitely miss it! Not having a 26.2 to work towards is still a concept I'm getting used to I'll enjoy this and try and make the most of it to get my other times down, because, touch wood, I'm going to do DCM & London back to back.

Legs tender enough still, maybe that 20k on Monday could have been cut back Those concrete roads and pavements around Raheny, definitely punish the legs a bit more than tarmac. Going on a stag to Cork on Saturday so planning a session Thursday and LR Sat morning. Will see how the legs are before deciding on session. Enniscorthy 10k is in the works for next week, but I'll see how I recover from this weekend's events. County Novice 5k on the week after, could be my chance to finally do some damage to my 18:51 5k PB

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

- I'm getting more confident and agressive in races. Not necessarily just because I'm getting faster, but i dont build these races up as much as I used to. I know the training is there so if it happens it happens, if not there will be another chance to do it.

Great attitude. Definitely makes a difference looking at it that way.

dublin runner

Firstly, well done in Raheny.

Secondly, I have only read your blog today. I don't really read much around here anymore.

A few things:

The main thing: you have got ability, dedication and a lot of potential. That's the hard part sorted!

I read back your log; firstly reading about some of your sessions, not races. The big thing that stood out to me was - your training vs. racing doesn't stack up. I don't mean that in a negative manner, just a matter of opinion.

The question is - what is more important? Is it training or is it racing? Do you train to race? Do you use training as a method to improve your race times and placings? (I am taking it for granted you enjoy running!)

Personally, I think you need to take a big step back pace-wise. I think you need to completely reassess how to approach sessions.

-Reading of 'tempos' at 29.0x is all well and good but they aren't tempo runs if your PB is mid 28s. It is 6-7 seconds a mile slower than race pace!
-400s in low 70s?
-6×1mile @5.15 - that would be a big very hard session for me - a KEY session. Do you realise that would be 'THE SESSION' two weeks' out from targetting a mid 32 10km time?!

I hope I am not coming across in a negative manner. I say this is the possible manner - you've got all the ingredients; stop racing sessions. Keep training a) specific b) controlled c) slower. You will see the benefits come race day, trust me. Everything has to make sense, have a defined purpose.

You have got all the ammunition to knock minutes off your times, not just seconds.

AuldManKing

Listen to that man J - he knows a little bit about running.

Are the paces that are subscribed by the coach or are you coming up with them yourself? The sessions themselves seem fine, the pace seems a lot faster though.
I know you ran a fantastic time on Sunday, but I'd wonder if its realistic to keep training as you are without breaking down?