Berlin Q or Bust: Road to sub 2:45

healy1835

dublin runner wrote: »

-6×1mile @5.15 - that would be a big very hard session for me - a KEY session. Do you realise that would be 'THE SESSION' two weeks' out from targetting a mid 32 10km time?!

:eek:

thanks for the feedback DR. Always great to have a new (&fast ) set of eyes take a look at the log. Your log is (was? on a bit of a sabbatical at the moment?) one of my go to-logs to get some inspiration for the gains and progress that can be made.
I have started the process of paring back on some of my sessions alright. For example the 5 Mile tempo was 100% my fault, i looked at the watch after 10mins and just sort of thought 'Do you know what, this pace is feeling ok, I could just keep going here...' Not my smartest moment.
The mile repeats are a funny one...I was set 5:20 for the repeats, but those targets were set off the back of a previous Mile repeat session. A bit of a vicious circle I suppose.

To answer your question, I train to race. 100%. And I do really enjoy this running lark The sessions that you've referenced above have all come on the track. Is there anything to this in your experience? As in, do you ever feel like it's harder to back off when you're running on the track as opposed to the road?

healy1835

AuldManKing wrote: »

Listen to that man J - he knows a little bit about running.

Are the paces that are subscribed by the coach or are you coming up with them yourself? The sessions themselves seem fine, the pace seems a lot faster though.
I know you ran a fantastic time on Sunday, but I'd wonder if its realistic to keep training as you are without breaking down?

It's a mixed bag Alan tbh. Sometimes I'm given paces to hit, other times it's on feel. These are often the times when I maybe go a little askew. And maybe I'm guilty in not giving proper feedback as to how I felt running some of those splits. I don't know.......I'm steering clear of the track for a little while anyway. I seem to be a lot more reliable on the roads and grass. Will be starting a block for the Limerick Half Marathon soon enough, looking forward to some longer sessions again.

shotgunmcos

AuldManKing wrote: »

Listen to that man J - he knows a little bit about running.

I love the boards community but the boards community doesn't help. We slap backs and applaud the smashing of training sessions and training pbs!

Then there is leaving all on the line for a race pb and we slap the back again and say onwards and upwards from here.... the pressure!

A wise fella said to me once you gotta go slow to go fast.. took a while for that to sink in.

Swashbuckler

shotgunmcos wrote:

I love the boards community but the boards community doesn't help. We slap backs and applaud the smashing of training sessions and training pbs!

Not sure I agree with this. I think there's an element of support when needed ie when someone is being a bit hard on themselves for a crap performance or struggling with training but for the most part I've seen a lot of overtraining questioned. I think if you read back here you'll see a few people point out that some of J's sessions looked a little on the fast side. AMK has had his training/racing questioned more than anyone on here. It might not always be a "you idiot what are you doing" but more of a thinly veiled hint - "that's a mental session".

Swashbuckler

On the original point I'm glad DR posted that as it's an important discussion.

Without going into overanalysis mode on you J there's definitely been a marked change in your training since Dublin. Maybe it's because I'm paying closer attention now. Haha. But in all seriousness my eyes popped when I saw some of those sessions. I put it down to the fact that your confidence has grown with those Half and Full marathon performances. With that comes an urge to drive on. I wonder have you started chasing improvements rather than just letting them come. Also don't underestimate the mental side of it. Your on a rich vein of form at the moment and with that the running just gets that little bit easier mentally but that doesn't mean your tempo pace becomes 30s faster. I haven't said anything really coz 1. Your improvement has been massive and 2. At the end of the day it's none of my business. Haha.

Good discussion though. That's why we have these logs.

Duanington

Good healthy discussion here, great to see it and fair play to J for not going all defensive.
With regard to the backslapping - There is a lot of that for sure but there has also been a fair bit of questioning of training methods of late ( which is great).

On DR's observations, we're all probably guilty of it at times - rinsing ourselves on sessions because we enjoy the challenge in the moment, the novelty of a track or sometimes just pure adrenaline.

I've never thought of it until now but the group I train with on Wednesdays has a pretty high caliber runner\coach supervising the session and in just over a year, he hasn't once prescribed a pace or split time to run - it has always been about holding a certain effort, that's not to say there are no fast reps, there are - but only when we're told to go at it hard.

Dipping into a certain range and holding it, getting comfortable at that pace as opposed to plunging ourselves right down into the red and emptying the tank every week is what we're encouraged to do.

Really enjoying this log J and seeing your progression.

dublin runner

healy1835 wrote: »

:eek:

thanks for the feedback DR. Always great to have a new (&fast ) set of eyes take a look at the log. Your log is (was? on a bit of a sabbatical at the moment?) one of my go to-logs to get some inspiration for the gains and progress that can be made.
I have started the process of paring back on some of my sessions alright. For example the 5 Mile tempo was 100% my fault, i looked at the watch after 10mins and just sort of thought 'Do you know what, this pace is feeling ok, I could just keep going here...' Not my smartest moment.
The mile repeats are a funny one...I was set 5:20 for the repeats, but those targets were set off the back of a previous Mile repeat session. A bit of a vicious circle I suppose.

To answer your question, I train to race. 100%. And I do really enjoy this running lark The sessions that you've referenced above have all come on the track. Is there anything to this in your experience? As in, do you ever feel like it's harder to back off when you're running on the track as opposed to the road?

I am always somewhat wary of interfering in someone else's log, especially runners I don't actually know! I always think 'who's that stranger on the internet' thinking?! I am glad you picked me up correctly.

I think Scullion hit the nail on the head regarding this: 'Run like an animal' That really struck a chord because it wasn't solely to do with pushing yourself, it is also to do with running smartly - controlled.

I have little doubt you will continually improve. I personally think that if you scale things back, run with more control, you will thrive.

I try to not cherry pick sessions to prove my 'point' but without being harsh, I could have pointed to a dozen or so 'wreckless' sessions.

I have come across all types of runners; C25K, Joggers, Club Runners, Elites. Here I always think to one particular person, probably the best trainer I have ever seen. He has the ability but the manner in which he goes about his training always impresses. He does everything for a reason, leaves the ego at home, is happily beaten on the last rep when people race etc. He just does the right thing 90% of the time - no frills, no mad sessions. It may sound boring but he does things correctly 90% of the time - daily/weekly/monthly/yearly. He then turns up and races up to and beyond his training paces.

Training is training, racing is racing. Two different but two interconnected beasts.

healy1835

I'm never going to escape that 5Mile tempo am I?

If I'm honest there probably is a grain if truth to P's suggestion that I'm chasing improvements rather than letting them happen. I mean it's still only 10 months since the disaster that was Rotterdam. A lot has happened in between, big improvements granted, but maybe after the disappointment of DCM I've tried to push on too quickly.

Feedback on here is great, loads of different viewpoints and takes are great. It's great to be sharing the journey with other runners, whether their slower, faster (AMK's 2:58:00 marathon for example ) or have similar goals.

I'll discuss it all with the man in charge and see what he reckons. He's always adapted training to the feedback I've given him.....I might just need to change that feedback a little.

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote: »

I'll discuss it all with the man in charge and see what he reckons. He's always adapted training to the feedback I've given him.....I might just need to change that feedback a little.

One of the best parts of having a coach you trust is they do a lot of the thinking for you and you can go out and execute...

One of the worst parts is that sometimes (it has happened to me on occasion) you assume if you're not told off for something then its probably ok. That's not always the case. I think a lot of good coaches leave the figuring out to the athlete and don't molly coddle them.

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote: »

I'm never going to escape that 5Mile tempo am I?

Ahem......the 400's..............ahem........... ;);)

healy1835

Swashbuckler wrote: »

One of the best parts of having a coach you trust is they do a lot of the thinking for you and you can go out and execute...

One of the worst parts is that sometimes (it has happened to me on occasion) you assume if you're not told off for something then its probably ok. That's not always the case. I think a lot of good coaches leave the figuring out to the athlete and don't molly coddle them.

Yeah and tbh he's a buddy whose done me some serious favours as regards my training since I've started so I don't inundate him with questions. He certainly doesn't molly coddle me and leaves me to figure out a lot of the paces myself.....

AuldManKing

I love the fact that my log hasn't has this level of analysis in a few months now

Swashbuckler

AuldManKing wrote:

I love the fact that my log hasn't has this level of analysis in a few months now

Gone are the days of Strava Superhero status

healy1835

I have actually been running.......on a stag Sat & Sun in Cork. Great craic but I'm good for beer for a while now.....back today, feeling human once more. So picking up from Raheny.....

Mon: Athletics Club in school has made its return so ended up doing about 8x300m with the kids. Legs felt remarkably good.....

18k Recovery: 1:33:10 @5:10/km
It happened. Legs felt tired by the end, which I suppose is sort of the point of a LR after a shorter race.

Tue: 10k Easy: 49:00 @4:54/km
Horrendous conditions on the plains. Forgot my watch. Forgot my headphones. Forgot my mojo.

Wed: 12.2k Easy: 1:02:24 @5:08/km
Lovely afternoon on the plains with my buddy who has gotten into Berlin. We'll both be targeting 2:50 in the Autumn.....he's just getting back into the swing of things. Great plans being hatched on this run

Thu: 10k Easy: 49:50 @4:59/km
Out and back along the Clontarf Seafront. The coldest breeze I'd ran into for a long time. Got to 5k and just turned back. I'm amazed I made it that far tbh!

Fri: sick children at home nixed this one. Had a 6x1k session planned but that was probably going to be turned into a Fartlek of some variety....Was glad of the rest really. Raheny's concrete took a toll on the legs.

Sat: Shorter window than originally planned, with a stag in Cork occupying the rest of the weekend I got out for 10 Miles Relaxed/Steady: 1:10:55 @4:24/km......Felt great, could have easily knocked out the extra 5miles that didn't get ran.

Sun: hungover trip to Pairc uí Caoimh to see the Lilywhites. More beers.....

Mon: nowt. I'm really bad at running after a night on the sauce. Even worse after 2......

Tue: 11.5k Runmute PM: 52:35 @4:34/km
Car is in getting work done after my pre Christmas collision. So gonna have a few more commutes that usual this week. Felt decent.

Enniscorthy not happening at the weekend now due to some family stuff. But I'll prob run a 10k during the HM block so I'll get another crack soon enough at the distance.

healy1835

Wed: AM: 7.5k: 38:47 @5:08/km
PM: 5Miles: 34:28@4:17/km Inc 10x1min on/off

Car was in garage all week so we were down to one car, so I ran into work in the Zoom Streaks and planned a Hill session after work and had arranged for my mate to drop me home after the session we were gonna do together. However my youngest fella wasn't feeling great after his injections in school so his Grandad collected him and I had to high tail it out of school to get back. 10x1min was the best idea I could come up with

Thu: 15.5k Easy: 1:16:14 @4:55/km
Finished a little earlier than usual in Marino so made it out to the Star of the Sea statue in something resembling daylight. Meandered up through Raheny and back down again to the Sea front, not quite knowing where exactly I was but not quite lost either

Fri: 8.3k Easy: 37:58@4:34/km
Lashed rain in the morning so I got my Dad to bring me into work! Ran home, downwind.

Sat: 6x1km @10k pace: Splits: 3:35, 3:42, 3:36, 3:41, 3:35, 3:43

13k in total.

As I wasn't able to make Enniscorthy 10k, I basically just plucked this session from thin air, as the race was in the schedule for this weekend. I'd like to think that sub 36 is in my wheelhouse at the moment so I had 3:36 in my head. Wind made the reps a little tricky, they were out and back obviously. Good session and I was happy that I gauged the effort levels correctly (no 3:20kms )

Sun: 20k Inc a 5k Tempo sort of thing: 1:34:58 @4:45/km

Wanted to do something long with a bit of speed in it. My erstwhile sub 3 training partner is back from injury and approaching something back to his full fitness levels. So he wanted to do something similar so I ran up to his place to meet him and I suggested we run out to the Curragh and do 5k around the route for next Sunday's Novice Road Race.

5k was 19:xx but even though I'd run the route lots of times, it's basically 2 triangular loops, i'd never ran it thinking that idI'd be racing on it. It's a tough loop, couple of nasty drags and very exposed. Some very quick downhill as well though.....ended up putting the foot down for the last k today and probably was somewhere in the region of 3:15, downwind and downhill. Looking forward to racing and not having my watch being the most important thing, it'll be a new experience

Just under 85k for the week which included a hungover Monday rest day.

OOnegative

You racing today?

healy1835

OOnegative wrote: »

You racing today?

Yep.....5k Kildare Novice Road Race alternating here between confident and dreading it

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

Yep.....5k Kildare Novice Road Race alternating here between confident and dreading it

Dreading is probably the right thing. Haha. Run well

OOnegative

healy1835 wrote: »

Yep.....5k Kildare Novice Road Race alternating here between confident and dreading it

Best of luck with it, run well J!!

healy1835

Mon: 12k Recovery: 1:03:31 @5:17/km

Tue: 2 Miles in school w/ Daily Mile @4:45/km
12k Easy: 1hr @5:00/km
Trot around the plains.

Wed: Session: 200x4,400x2,800,400x2,200x4

Decent session over the Novices 5k loop. Wind and drags not appreciated but judged effort levels right. Sleep has been torpedoed this week so tried to adjust effort levels accordingly.

Thu: 4k in school w/ Daily Mile @4:26/km

9k Easy: 45:39 @5:04/km
Ramble around Marino/Donnycarney culminating in me getting lost and running 1 more km than planned felt great though.

Fri: 5 Miles Easy: 39:12@4:52/km

Sat: 6k shakeout with the pooch. + 5 strides after

healy1835

Kildare Novice Road Race: 5k: 17:49
7th Place, Team Bronze, second scorer

Started the day tracking DD from these parts in Seville. Delighted for him posting a good result and time which I'm fairly sure he'll better this year.

This race was a bit of an add on to my original schedule. I do need to race a few more 5ks. My sole 5k race in my career was a disaster last June, so I'm not going to get any better at the distance by not running them. I don't think they're ever going to be my thing but I'm definitly gonna try to bring the PB down as much as I can this year. Anyway, today......

Wasn't sure just how to tackle the race. I'd a 17:39 5k split in Raheny last month so I knew I could post something decent, but this would be a much trickier track than the first 5k in Raheny and the conditions were far less favourable. Add in the facts that I suck at 5ks, the ruinous week of sleep that I had left behind me and that it was my first time on a club tram made it all a bit iffy beforehand. Didn't get a decent warm up due to a few different small factors which were all my own fault. Down to the road and lined up at the front and set off.

First km was gonna be a quick one, decent down hill and nice road. Fell in about 5th place, top 2 guys were running their first and only novice race I'd say (16:05 & 16:06) and they started to pull away. I was in a group of about 5 and felt comfortable enough. Through first k.....glance at watch, 3:20 a bit on the hot side, but I can't do anything about it now.

Nasty mile coming up now, all drag and into the wind. I kind of settled at the back of the group here and tried to let others do the work for me, but I sort of switched off too much and found myself off the back a d not really getting any help from being at the back of the group 2nd km: 3:42

Bit of a downhill now, but I don't seem to be moving particularly quickly and the gap is beginning to widen now. In no man's land. Get a good few shouts from the club as we go around then look for the second time. 3rd km: 3:29

Down the road again and turning into the nasty drag, I'm feeling pretty ****. Not losing much ground but not exactly eating up road either. It really is a bastard of a drag 4th km: 3:50

I'm working hard here, there's not a whole lot more to give, but a quick glance around tells me I'm not gonna lose my position in the last 800m and unless someone blows in front of me, I'm not gonna make up any places either. Id like to think if there was something at stake i would have found a bit extra.......
I slip a little going around the bend onto the downhill and tweak my knee a little. Nothing serious but takes maybe 15seconds to run it off. Finish as strong as I can muster, 3:28 km and cross the line with 17:50 on the watch, 17:49 according to the 'finish line guy'?

Team scores were really tight, my training partner who for reasons known only to him, thought it would be a good idea to join in an army hill session up lugnaquilla on Thursday as part of the course he was administering. He blew and if he had have been anyway right we would have got the Gold, but how and ever

My 5k was slower than Raheny but it was completely different in fairness. I think i could crack 17mins this year for a 5k, but I'm not sure where that's gonna fit in training wise. Learned a lot today though. Block for Limerick Half Marathon starting next week, looking forward to it.

OOnegative

County bronze, well done!! Did you talk yourself out of a performance or is just coming across that way in the report?

healy1835

OOnegative wrote: »

County bronze, well done!! Did you talk yourself out of a performance or is just coming across that way in the report?

Yeah i don't know what to feel tbh. It was a decent performance and I should be happy......could and should I have run faster? Probably......I think I've a mental block about 5ks at the moment. Hopefully this will go a bit to sorting that out. I am looking forward to going back to the longer stuff though.

OOnegative

healy1835 wrote: »

Yeah i don't know what to feel tbh. It was a decent performance and I should be happy......could and should I have run faster? Probably......I think I've a mental block about 5ks at the moment. Hopefully this will go a bit to sorting that out. I am looking forward to going back to the longer stuff though.

I reckon you should have run faster to be honest, your much better than 17.49 J. Mental block maybe with 5k. Mediocre more than decent maybe considering Raheny?

Swashbuckler

5k races need practice for sure. You'd need to run a few. I think you're definitely capable of more. You're faster than me across all distances and my 5k time from last year was 17.2x.

Sounds like the route wasn't the best. That first km probably didn't help either. Haha

healy1835

OOnegative wrote: »

I reckon you should have run faster to be honest, your much better than 17.49 J. Mental block maybe with 5k. Mediocre more than decent maybe considering Raheny?

Well, the route and conditions were far more challenging so it's not a like for like comparison, but I take your point B. Yeah bit of a mental block alright, but today will actually help with that. You remember my first 5k back in June! a bit of a case of after the Lord Mayors Show as well maybe. I was totally focused and geared towards Raheny.......today not quite as much. That said, a flat course, deeper field and better conditions I'd be very confident of taking 30secs minimum off that time.

OOnegative

healy1835 wrote: »

Well, the route and conditions were far more challenging so it's not a like for like comparison, but I take your point B. Yeah bit of a mental block alright, but today will actually help with that. You remember my first 5k back in June! a bit of a case of after the Lord Mayors Show as well maybe. I was totally focused and geared towards Raheny.......today not quite as much. That said, a flat course, deeper field and better conditions I'd be very confident of taking 30secs minimum off that time.

Ah i’m not having a pop, I just think your capable of much quicker. Didn’t happen today, will down the line no doubt.

healy1835

OOnegative wrote: »

Ah i’m not having a pop, I just think your capable of much quicker. Didn’t happen today, will down the line no doubt.

And I never think you are pal My 5k ambition for the year was, if I recall correctly, 'to run a decent 5k' and the only distance I didn't have a time goal for I'm calling this a decent run.......a step in the right direction maybe. Not sure when ill run another one though.

Swashbuckler

healy1835 wrote:

And I never think you are pal My 5k ambition for the year was, if I recall correctly, 'to run a decent 5k' and the only distance I didn't have a time goal for I'm calling this a decent run.......a step in the right direction maybe. Not sure when ill run another one though.

Day of Irish PB's!

healy1835

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Day of Irish PB's!

On a stag in Dingle pity it's not midweek!...