Gymnastic training versus Weight Training

rigmaroll

Im watching the Gymnastics in the Olympics and the level of fitness these athletes have is phenomenal.

It got me thinking why has weight training become the favoured method of building strength for sportsmen and women and for the general population.

Gymnasts seem to have a much higher level of athleticism.

Do any of the lifters on this forum have experience of gymnastic/bodyweight training programs and if so can they share their thoughts on how they compare to barbell training.

Thanks

Dtp1979

rigmaroll wrote: »

Im watching the Gymnastics in the Olympics and the level of fitness these athletes have is phenomenal.

It got me thinking why has weight training become the favoured method of building strength for sportsmen and women and for the general population.

Gymnasts seem to have a much higher level of athleticism.

Do any of the lifters on this forum have experience of gymnastic/bodyweight training programs and if so can they share their thoughts on how they compare to barbell training.

Thanks

To be honest I know nothing about how gymnasts train but I'd nearly bet that a big part of their training involves weight lifting

Alf Veedersane

Dtp1979 wrote: »

To be honest I know nothing about how gymnasts train but I'd nearly bet that a big part of their training involves weight lifting

It doesn't really. Not to any great degree at all.

Having a low bodyfat is more important than muscle, once they're strong enough to do the moves in their routines and any excess weight is going to be a hinderance. So any strength training is just to make them strong enough to do their routines across the different disciplines. There's no benefit to them by gaining muscle above and beyond what's needed.

If you spend 30 hours a week training gymnastics to the point where you could do the routines they did, and have a low level of bodyfat, you could look like a gymnast.

But people watching the Olympics won't be training like that and will have too high a bodyfat level so it's unrealistic to think that if they go do gymnastics a couple of times a week, that they'll look ripped like Uchimura et al.

Hanley

1) You're looking at the best of the best in the world - of course they look amazing and can do incredible things. So do the swimmers and the light weight weightlifters.

2) You don't see how many of them get broken as a result of the training (hint - it's LOTS)

3) They started when they were like 3 years old and trained daily, multiple times a day, for up to hours at a time. As they grew, they progress kept pace.

4) Name one olympian who took the sport up after 16 years old with NO gymnastics background.

...now, take an average person who wants to get stronger. Add in years of abuse to their body from sports to ensure they already have some underlying issues. Make them a bit overweight. Then ask them to do a pull up.

Wait for months to see progress.

Then ask them to do a muscle up.

Wait for many more months to see progress.

Then, ask a gymnast what they think of the "muscle up".

They'll look at you like you're a complete weirdo because muscle ups aren't even a thing in the gymnastics. It's just how they get up onto the rings to start their rountine.

Oh, and most people can't even touch their toes or hold a good plank for 30s FFS.

Trying to get the body and athleticism of one of the most genetically gifted hard working athletes on the planet by going gymnastics is like trying to hop into an F1 car and get pole position on the grid straight out of your normal every day car.

siochain

Some basic gymnastic training methods can really complement and accelerate your lifting progress and improve sports performance. Tim ferris did a very good podcast with Chriss Sommer recently well worth a listen.

rigmaroll

Do you have a link

siochain

rigmaroll wrote: »

Do you have a link

http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/05/09/the-secrets-of-gymnastic-strength-training/

Long but worth it and there is a part 2

rigmaroll

Thank you. Ill have a listen and post back here. Have you tried his course

siochain

rigmaroll wrote: »

Thank you. Ill have a listen and post back here. Have you tried his course

Na haven't done his course and i wouldn't be a fan of using online courses for something a technical as gymnastics. Cheers

rigmaroll

On the original link their is only a 3min snippet of the podcast.

The full podcast is on the link below. Use the notes on the original link to jump to the required section.
Full Podcast - see notes to jump to required section

Some points made;
Most people have problems with the degree of shoulder extension necessary

The Hanging leg lift and Bridge are used to screen people for problem areas

Kipping Pull Ups were just a gimmick used by Glassman(Crossfit) to draw people to Crossfit and sell advertising

The Jefferson Curl is the most beneficial mobility exercise you can do assuming you start with light weight followed by the Elevated Bridge

Exercise to Avoid in the first 6 months are Muscle Ups and Back Lever

Good Goals to set are:
Press Hand Stand
Straddle Planch
Front Lever

Parallel grip pullups are the most beneficial type of pullup cos they work the Brachialis

Part two is on this link
https://overcast.fm/+BmGXDd7Yo/16:22

The notes for this are in the below link. There are other links on the page for exercise demos also

http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/08/17/the-secrets-of-gymnastic-strength-training-part-two/

rigmaroll

These are the exercises that were talked about in parts 1 and 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW1psfpRLtk&feature=youtu.be

Mellor

rigmaroll wrote: »

1. Most people have problems with the degree of shoulder extension necessary
   
2. The Hanging leg lift and Bridge are used to screen people for problem areas
   
3. Kipping Pull Ups were just a gimmick used by Glassman(Crossfit) to draw people to Crossfit and sell advertising
   
4. The Jefferson Curl is the most beneficial mobility exercise you can do assuming you start with light weight followed by the Elevated Bridge
   
5. Exercise to Avoid in the first 6 months are Muscle Ups and Back Lever
   
6. Good Goals to set are:
   Press Hand Stand
   Straddle Planch
   Front Lever

1. Agreed. And hip extension.
   
2. Hip/Shoulder extension are key for a decent bridge. I'd guess that most would struggle with a bridge.
   
3. I'm not sure, but I don't think kipping was invented by Glassman. I also don't see how kips themselves sells advertising.
   Sure, they aren't pull ups, that doesn't make the movement inherently bad. There are tons of sports based movements "kip" extra power with full body movement.
   The issue that I have with kipping is that CF pushes speed to the point of technical breakdown. It's a skill based power movement, not cardio.
   
4. Jefferson Curl's are brilliant. But a lot of people will prob confuse them with back rounding in a deadlift (which IS bad).
   
5. I agree that they should be avoided for beginners, but when they can be included is individual. Some might need 6 months, others longer or shorter.
   
6. I wish...
   

rigmaroll

I tried the Jefferson Curls. I think their risky even with light weight and don't fancy doing them without a coach observing.

I was wondering how do people incorporate mobility work into their weight training. Do they do stretching directly after a session or do them on a recovery/rest day.

I find I'm too tired to add in a half hour of stretches after a workout.

What stretch would anyone recommend for tight Hamstrings other than Jefferson Curls

Mellor

What weight were you using for the J-curls?
Why do you think they are risky? It is just the whole it's dangerous to lift with your back thing?

That's true in many ways, but there's a huge difference between your back buckling on a deadlift or squat verses intentional going through the ROM under a light load. The latter is how you strengthen every other muscle/joint, which is what the spine is after all. Because the load is light, the individual stresses shouldn't be any greater than a big deadlift spread over the spine.
Obviously if you go too heavy you will hurt yourself. But that's no different to a beginner trying to bench 100kg on his first day.

Mellor

rigmaroll wrote: »

What stretch would anyone recommend for tight Hamstrings other than Jefferson Curls

Forgot this part.
If you want to just stretch as them as a warm up. Then hurdler stretch of split stance hamstring stretch. I like the latter.

If you actually want to improve flexibility, forward fold ROM etc. Then head to toe ballistic stretching is excellant

rigmaroll

5lbs. I can deadlift 120kg but this felt uncomfortable.

Thanks for the stretching advice. Do you have an example of the ballistic stretches.

How do yoy fit in your stretches. Do you do them at end of workout, between sets or on recovery/rest day.

It's an area I really need to improve on

siochain

On top of doing some as part of gym work up i do a lot of mobility work while watching TV did and hour yesterday watching rugby and will try to do a few minutes every evening it all adds up.

Mellor

rigmaroll wrote: »

5lbs. I can deadlift 120kg but this felt uncomfortable.

Try doing them unweighted to start off and get used to the ROM. The self load on our bodies is >5lbs. Added weight in small increments when you feel comfortable.
I'm currently using 30kg. Have been very slow to work up even this heavy.

Thanks for the stretching advice. Do you have an example of the ballistic stretches.

How do yoy fit in your stretches. Do you do them at end of workout, between sets or on recovery/rest day.

I do my dedicated flexibility work (as opposed to a mobility warm up at the start of a workout) in the evenings at home, in front of the TV. One exception is that, is my cardio/condition day is a short workout. So I do some flexibility work after that.

Flexibility work is generally too intense to do before lifting. But could be done afterwarrds if that suited. At the moment I'm working on splits and ballistic stretching.

I can't link the ballistic videos right now, but I'll add them in later

Pre-warning, ballistic stretching it tough. It hurts. And you'll need to do it consistentlt 3-5 times a week (it takes 10mins). but you will get results.
It's not something that you should jump into at the very start if you are very inflexible. A suggested prerequisite ia hands on the floor forward fold, and a reasonably developed Jefferson curl.

If you are at that, or near that then fire ahead. If you are miles off. I'd suggest some some contract-relax stretching, and some loaded stretching for a bit first.


Ballistic Stretching
Ok, this is the best starting point for ballistic stretching. Emmet has a mini series of 4 videos on this stuff. A must watch if you are going this route

This is a good intro;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs-iOux0zps

This is the basic routine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HVsDRjOHqU

Hanley

Late to the party here, but re: stretching, I've been doing RomWOD for the last couple of weeks and have nothing but positive things to say.

rigmaroll

Mellor wrote:

Pre-warning, ballistic stretching it tough. It hurts. And you'll need to do it consistentlt 3-5 times a week (it takes 10mins). but you will get results. It's not something that you should jump into at the very start if you are very inflexible. A suggested prerequisite ia hands on the floor forward fold, and a reasonably developed Jefferson curl.

Mellor wrote:

If you are at that, or near that then fire ahead. If you are miles off. I'd suggest some some contract-relax stretching, and some

Great stuff. Im a good bit away from Ballistic stretching atm so I'll concentrate on the contract-relax stretches and build up on the Jefferson curls. I found the Split Hamstrings stretch you recommended earlier to be very good.

Mellor

rigmaroll wrote: »

Great stuff. Im a good bit away from Ballistic stretching atm so I'll concentrate on the contract-relax stretches and build up on the Jefferson curls. I found the Split Hamstrings stretch you recommended earlier to be very good.

Did you see the weighted version in the previous post?
Makes if a sort of like a split stance good morning, it's a great stretch. Loaded stretching was a game changer for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWOeVa7wiSE

rigmaroll

Mellor wrote:

Did you see the weighted version in the previous post? Makes if a sort of like a split stance good morning, it's a great stretch. Loaded stretching was a game changer for me.

I seen it but haven't tried it yet. I'll improve on the basic one first and then hopefully progress to the ballistic stretches in a few weeks.

rigmaroll

Hanley wrote:

Late to the party here, but re: stretching, I've been doing RomWOD for the last couple of weeks and have nothing but positive things to say.

Is this the one that offers a 7 day free trial. I've tried to post a link but the app won't let me.

The Romwod I found is at
https / romwod.com

Hanley

rigmaroll wrote: »

Is this the one that offers a 7 day free trial. I've tried to post a link but the app won't let me.

The Romwod I found is at
https / romwod.com

Correct!