Funeral for an atheist?

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

I do think a funeral can be a very supportive and positive experience although, obviously, not everybody finds it so.

I can't say that I've ever been to a funeral that I would describe as a positive experiences. Wakes on the other hand, very much so. Again, each to their own.

Peregrinus

smacl wrote: »

I can't say that I've ever been to a funeral that I would describe as a positive experiences. Wakes on the other hand, very much so. Again, each to their own.

Can I ask, is that your view about funerals generally, or about religious funerals specifically?

smacl

Peregrinus wrote: »

Can I ask, is that your view about funerals generally, or about religious funerals specifically?

Funerals generally. My experience of non-religious funerals is that they are very much mimicking the religious equivalent as there is a social expectation that things are done in that way. I think religious funerals make sense for religious people, though don't have much merit for non-religious people. Again, purely personal experience and sentiment, but wakes are more heart-felt and don't carry the pomp and rigidity that accompanies a formal funeral. I'm baffled why anyone would want a celebrant that they don't have a long term relationship with preside over any pivotal occasion in their life.

magicbastarder

smacl wrote: »

I'm baffled why anyone would want a celebrant that they don't have a long term relationship with preside over any pivotal occasion in their life.

a friend was at his uncle's funeral, and after they played some dirge (probably something like 'you raise me up' i suspect) the priest stood up and intoned 'that was clearly a song which had special meaning for Brendan' and got very confused when the congregation burst out laughing.
Brendan had decided that it was his funeral, and he wanted people to feel miserable at it. clearly the priest was not in on the joke.

smacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

a friend was at his uncle's funeral, and after they played some dirge (probably something like 'you raise me up' i suspect)

First read had me thinking of raise it up, and thinking fair play to your uncle

Jacxel

Peregrinus wrote: »

Actually, this should probably be a bigger priority than telling your girlfriend what song's you'd like sung at your funeral.

Sure, but I dont 'need' a solicitor to have a conversation with my girlfriend...not yet anyway

Hotblack Desiato

InTheTrees wrote: »

Isn't this thread title the name of a song?

On searching for that I didn't find a song, but I did find this:

http://www.baptist.org.uk/Publisher/File.aspx?ID=111415&view=browser

Chapter six - UNCOMMON FUNERALS AND CEREMONIES

h) An Atheist (or Non-Religious)

A minister may be asked to conduct a funeral service for someone who has been an avowed atheist. Some ministers feel unable to do so, perhaps believing that if someone has deliberately chosen not to trust in God in their lifetime they will have put themselves beyond the reach of God's love. On this basis it would be hypocritical for the church, represented by the minister, to in effect offer its blessing and to offer the family false consolation. As mentioned in chapter one, I take a different view, and whether the deceased person has been an atheist or the family are predominantly atheist I will serve them to the best of my ability.

The minister will, of course, be aware that it is highly likely the congregation at the funeral will include members who are not atheists. Though they will not be the focus of the primary ministry, just the actual presence of a minister may be a comfort to them.

It may seem odd, but at the pre-funeral visit, especially when the request has been for a non-religious service, the minister still needs to ask whether the family would like any hymns or prayers. They often do. What they do not want is over-the-top pomp and ceremony and to be told by someone else what they ought to believe (see Philippians 2:12). Unfortunately there are many people who equate this with religion and Christianity. In these circumstances I have had some most enjoyable conversations about faith. Many people are surprised to hear that Christian faith based on Jesus' teaching is an encouragement to trust in God rather than to accept dogma about God.

However, there will be occasion when it becomes clear that what is required is a ceremony which has no mention of God. Only on one occasion was there also no wish for love to be mentioned. It is biblically justifiable to celebrate love without mentioning God by name. The Song of Solomon does precisely that. Large sections of Ecclesiastes and Proverbs refer to God as Wisdom or Logos rather than as "God". People of faith have sometimes struggled and disagreed when deciding if such approaches are "acceptable". Each minister must follow their own conscience in the matter.

What follows is an example of non-religious service. This was for a female divorcee I have re-named Helen Adams. On this occasion the ceremony included one hymn:-

The introduction:

On behalf of the family Helen Adams, may I welcome you all to this ceremony of remembrance. There will obviously be some sad thoughts and feelings here today because the life of Helen has run its course - but those closest to Helen know today ought also have an air of thanksgiving about it, because to be too solemn, and certainly to be too religious would not be in keeping with Helen’s life or with the thoughts and feelings of present company.

Hymn: We are going to sing a cheerful hymn, which has also been a pop song, and recognises that in many ways each day of life is a gift in that it is full of potential. The hymn is "Morning Has Broken". Please stand to sing.
(Had there been no hymn, a reading would probably have been shared at this point)

Meditation: Prayers addressed to a deity are not appropriate today, but this place reminds us that we all live within the great mysteries of life and death, so let us bow our heads for a few moments of meditation, not as a sign of sorrow or submission, but as a sign of respect -.

It is surely right for us to think with compassion today of Helen’s family - Some like her brother Christopher died before her, others of her own generation like Peter & Ruby remain. Lynette, James and Robin are here to mark the passing of a mother and their sadness is shared by Mark, Tanneth and Seph. There are also other absent family & friends, who will miss the presence of Helen in their lives - and we think especially of Helen's mother, Eileen. But let us find comfort from the care given by the General Hospital for Helen's family, and the good wishes of supportive friends. Let us hold fast to good memories, and give thanks for a life well lived and now complete. Indeed, let us now lift up our heads as a sign that we will face the future in a way that dignifies the human spirit and honours the memory of one we have loved - Mrs. Helen Adams.

Eulogy: The Eulogy, celebrating Helen's 61yrs has been provided by Lynette about her mother and will be read by me on her behalf. (The reading of the eulogy followed.)

Sign of Respect: Let us stand together in quietness as a sign of respect and an opportunity for private remembrance.

Closing of the Curtains: As the curtains close today we are invited to listen to “Days" by The Kinks.

Closing Blessing:
Helen Adams: Deep peace of the running wave to you. Deep peace of the flowing air to you. Deep peace of the quiet earth to you. Deep peace of the shining stars to you. Deep peace of the infinite peace to you.

There's really nothing there incompatible with a humanist funeral.

Impossible to imagine a catholic priest carrying out a funeral in that way and being so accommodating of the beliefs and wishes of the deceased.

Hotblack Desiato

beach_walker wrote: »

Worth noting that more dioceses are banning this sort of thing (rightly imo) so I wouldn't plan on it if it's a Catholic ceremony.

And some people wonder why the RCC is increasingly seen as out of touch, dictatorial, irrelevant to people's lives and lacking humanity...

Absolam

I quite like the idea of Days by the Kinks at a funeral... one to put on the list

smacl

Absolam wrote: »

I quite like the idea of Days by the Kinks at a funeral... one to put on the list

Good call for sure, though I'd probably go Kirsty MacColl

TSMGUY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npCINpKJitg

beach_walker

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

And some people wonder why the RCC is increasingly seen as out of touch, dictatorial, irrelevant to people's lives and lacking humanity...

Meh. It's not as if it takes a lot to prod folks around these parts that way tbh. If you want Rammstein or a speech quoting Carl Sagan to be played at your funeral, a Catholic ceremony probably isn't for you.

Jacxel

beach_walker wrote: »

Meh. It's not as if it takes a lot to prod folks around these parts that way tbh. If you want Rammstein or a speech quoting Carl Sagan to be played at your funeral, a Catholic ceremony probably isn't for you.

I can't post links but if you search "Ohne Dich (Cover by Allegria)" there is quite a lovely choral version of a song which is about mourning the loss of a loved one. What could be more appropriate for a funeral?

magicbastarder

Harika wrote: »

I think funerals are more for the surviving people than for the dead. That's why I told my wife, she should do whatever she wants with my corpse, so she can say proper goodbye in her faith.

while i understand this logic, the notion of my final sendoff being in a context i have at best, apathy for, and at worst, a contempt for, is something that makes my skin crawl a little.

smacl

magicbastarder wrote: »

while i understand this logic, the notion of my final sendoff being in a context i have at best, apathy for, and at worst, a contempt for, is something that makes my skin crawl a little.

It can be whatever you want it to be. Where there's a will there's a way

looksee

I cannot see any problem with the RC church (or any other) being authoritative/ dictatorial about what can be done at a funeral. Their court, their ball, their game. Equally, I will not be having a religious funeral - unless (and it seems very unlikely) it is important enough to my remaining family to have a religious service, at which stage I will not be there so I don't care.

smacl

looksee wrote: »

I cannot see any problem with the RC church (or any other) being authoritative/ dictatorial about what can be done at a funeral. Their court, their ball, their game. Equally, I will not be having a religious funeral - unless (and it seems very unlikely) it is important enough to my remaining family to have a religious service, at which stage I will not be there so I don't care.

While none of us will be there or care but I guess we all want to make our deaths as easy as possible for those we love that survive us. I think this benefits from some thought and preparation, and while I agree entirely with you that if it takes place in a RC church they call the shots, that is exactly why I wouldn't want one as a venue. Morbid as it is, I'd hope to organise my own funeral in part in advance to reduce the stress on my nearest and dearest. Organising funerals for someone you love is pretty horrible in my experience, organising one's own might be less so.

Hotblack Desiato

beach_walker wrote: »

Meh. It's not as if it takes a lot to prod folks around these parts that way tbh. If you want Rammstein or a speech quoting Carl Sagan to be played at your funeral, a Catholic ceremony probably isn't for you.

It's not the likes of me, who don't want a catholic funeral, complaining about it. It's the catholic laity complaining about their out of touch clergy and hierarchy. Y'know, the people you need to keep onside if your church is to have any future.

It's just another example of how a little bit of humility and humanity would go a long way, but no, the RCC takes the hard line every time. More fool them.

ShooterSF

My grans funeral is in about 5 hours and I should be asleep 87, didn't believe and was about as open about it as a woman her age who grew up in rural Ireland could be. RCC overseeing the ceremony because most of the family are and she never specified anything else. My guess, she'd have been happy to be stuck out with the recycling. Priest is a nice guy, first non-irish priest in the parish I think, though I don't make a habit of keeping up with it and is butchering her name to my family's amusement. She'd have laughed too. I don't hold anything against him but for someone like me it was tough at the removal and I expect tougher in the morning to come. Talking about Jesus saving us from hell and all that still reminds me of my believing days when that sh*t used to scare the crap out of me and I just keep thinking if she was beside me she'd turn and ask what the heck is he bulls@@tting on about, only with less PG-13 language. It's made up my mind that I need to do some research on the chance I kick it before I plan to. I thought I'd be okay with anything as I won't be around but I think the people that know me would probably find that kinda talk even more jarring than with her. Anyways I should sleep for a bit and stop waffling.

Hotblack Desiato

Sorry for your loss Shooter.

ShooterSF wrote: »

87, didn't believe and was about as open about it as a woman her age who grew up in rural Ireland could be. RCC overseeing the ceremony because most of the family are and she never specified anything else.

Surely her offspring are aware of her non-belief?

JuliusCaesar

Peregrinus wrote: »

Worth stressing this last point. People tend to assume that a non-religious funeral will be cheaper, but actually ethos and cost are independent variablesw. I've been to lots and lots of non-religious funerals in Australia, but you still need a celebrant, a venue, a hearse, a graveyard or crematorium etc, etc. Funeral homes and cemeteries do have venues that you can hire but, since hire for funerals is their only revenue stream, they tend to cost more than a church, not less. For the same reason the celebrant's fee (if you choose to have a celebrant, which most people do) is not likely to be less than a cleric would expect.

That's not to say that you can't do a non-religious funeral for a modest cost; of course you can. But you don't save money simply by having a non-religious funeral; you save it - as you would with a religious funeral - by stinting on the catering, by buying a cheaper box, by hiring fewer cars, and so forth.

Well, I've been to a couple of non-religious 'funerals'. They weren't funerals as such. In both cases there was no body (one had already been cremated, the other was donated to a medical school). It meant that the celebration of their life wasn't organised with the haste of a traditional funeral, and were held about 3-4 weeks after death.

One had a humanist as 'celebrant' - MC really, just introduced the beginning and the end of the event. The other had a family friend I think acting as MC. The music and poems and talks by various of the bereaved was planned and the whole thing took about 45 minutes. Then there was sandwiches and tea, with a section of a pub booked afterwards. The other was in a hotel function room and had finger food and drinks at the bar afterwards. Both were good evenings. One was designed by the person who knew they were dying, the other planned by family.

So much less expensive than the traditional funeral: no hearses, no limos, no coffin, and the money spent on the hall/hotel hire and food, and maybe a couple of musicians.

It was a great acknowledgement of the life and death of a person, and the bereavement of the family. The bit I liked was the all singing together as a community, and it wasn't a hymn!

ShooterSF

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Sorry for your loss Shooter.



Surely her offspring are aware of her non-belief?

Thanks. I think at least most knew. But she wasn't anti-RCC. She made her kids go to mass growing up even though she pretended to be too busy at home. She got on well with the local priest(s), just never believed. Plus of those that do believe of her offspring a few are not mentally or physically very well so for their sakes it was probably best not to rock the boat too much when trying to organise the funeral.The sad thing is where I live you'd probably have to put a hell of a lot more work into organising a non-religious funeral and it wasn't a long drawn out passing (thankfully).That's why I said it has made me want to put in some research as I wouldn't want to see my family rushing around if anything happened. Hard enough to think it those situations as it is.

368100

rawn wrote: »

This is all hypothetical, thankfully!

My partner and I were both baptised as Catholics but we would consider ourselves atheist. We're getting married in a registry office, completely removed from religion. A thread in Consumer Issues just got me thinking...

What would happen if one of us died? How do you go about arranging a funeral with no church/priest involvement? Is there such a thing? We always said that after we go we'd love to be cremated and put into one of those eco-tree urns that you bury, would a funeral home be equipped to deal with that or would we be pushed towards the traditional church/priest route?

Can you do the eco urn tree thing in Ireland? Is there somewhere that offers the service.....that's what I want to do....be a tree!

BlaasForRafa

Absolam wrote: »

I quite like the idea of Days by the Kinks at a funeral... one to put on the list

I wish funerals were a bit more tongue in cheek, something like Going Underground by The Jam or Post Mortem by Slayer might be mildly amusing