2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Not the link, but who is the actual source of these supposed quotes? And a little background to the source, if you'd please.

(And I heard tell Hillary had people bumped off who threatened her and her husband's ambitions... you know, just to keep in the mood of your post. They even have a name for it... Arkansas Flu)

Citations provided at the link.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Please find me a manufacturer in the US that still makes this stuff.

I think you just made your own point

Black Swan

Peist2007 wrote: »

Yeah the website is just spin. Those who think those are actual policies are mistaken.

Unlike his opponent, Donald Trump has extensive, indepth policy analyses, low-medium-high budgetary projections, taxpayer ROI, cost-benefit analysis, clearly specified vision, mission, goals and objectives with associated milestones and deadlines, delegation of responsibilities to cabinet secretaries, and a Congressional US House and US Senate bill origination, collaboration, and committee-to-floor strategies to create, pass, and presidentially sign policy based legislation, along with implementation, evaluation, feedback, and modification strategies for policy-to-practice rollout, administration, and enforcement. Voters will be overjoyed to learn that Donald Trump will reveal this comprehensive policy programme to voters at the same time that he reveals his tax returns.

Peist2007

oscarBravo wrote: »

Careful with that open mind, your brains might fall out.

Can you give us an example of a video (or a campaign website) that meets your criteria, by another candidate for high office? You might explain how, precisely, it meets your definition of "actual policies" as distinct from "just spin".

No need to be insulting, very un-Mod like.

Again, simple request - a video of Hillary Clinton setting out her policies should she be elected. I dont have any myself, hence the request.

What do you mean my criteria? Every politician running for Presidential office has to have a set of policies at least. I just cannot seem to find any. Can you post a link of Hillary describing her policies? Not a tough question. If you don't no problem. And i am hardly being picky am i - surely Hillary isnt about to become President with no policies nor any querying of same. So pass on those links, good man

oscarBravo

Peist2007 wrote: »

No need to be insulting, very un-Mod like.

If you found that insulting, you should probably be careful to avoid hearing anything Donald Trump has ever said, you might have a fainting spell.

Again, simple request - a video of Hillary Clinton setting out her policies should she be elected. I dont have any myself, hence the request.

What's wrong with reading them? Why do you need a video?

What do you mean my criteria? Every politician running for Presidential office has to have a set of policies at least. I just cannot seem to find any.

They're on her website. You dismissed them as "just spin". Accordingly, you appear to have a set of criteria as to what you consider actual policies - I have no idea what those criteria are, so I'd like you to provide an example of the sort of thing you're looking for.

You have repeatedly made it clear that you believe it's entirely reasonable to demand such a thing of Clinton; further, you've demanded it in the form of a video of her giving a speech about her policies (for reasons that you haven't bothered to explain).

If it's entirely reasonable to expect a candidate to spell out their policies in a way that satisfies you, isn't it reasonable to expect you to provide several examples of the sort of thing you're looking for?

Overheal

And they say the DNC is the party of division

http://slate.me/2do3kEb

Brian?

Peist2007 wrote: »

No need to be insulting, very un-Mod like.

Again, simple request - a video of Hillary Clinton setting out her policies should she be elected. I dont have any myself, hence the request.

What do you mean my criteria? Every politician running for Presidential office has to have a set of policies at least. I just cannot seem to find any. Can you post a link of Hillary describing her policies? Not a tough question. If you don't no problem. And i am hardly being picky am i - surely Hillary isnt about to become President with no policies nor any querying of same. So pass on those links, good man

You're being completely unreasonable, not just picky. No politician ever sets pun their policy platform primarily in speeches. Speeches are for talking points, imagine that. Policies were detailed in pamphlets, no it's done on websites. A detailed policy speech would be excruciating to listen to, so the don't happen. Never really have.

Candidate in a speech: "Here's what I stand for and what's wrong with my opponent". That's all it's ever been.

Every time you facially ask for a video it displays ignorance.

I can't believe I had to just explain that.

Before you attack me for in mod like behaviour, I don't mod this forum.

Suryavarman

Amerika wrote: »

Please find me a manufacturer in the US that still makes this stuff.

Here we have a lovely regent fit striped suit from Brooks Brothers made in the good old United States of America. This suit comes in large range of sizes, that ensure both smaller and larger men find a suit that fits perfectly. Make sure to pick up some American made shirts and ties to go with this all-American suit and you'll be the most patriotic man in the office.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

I think you just made your own point

That those who criticize him for not making these things in the US are ignorant, because they aren't made in America, and Trump plans on bringing it back?

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Citations provided at the link.

So your quotes attributed to Trump are apparently bogus then.

Amerika

Suryavarman wrote: »

Here we have a lovely regent fit striped suit from Brooks Brothers made in the good old United States of America. This suit comes in large range of sizes, that ensure both smaller and larger men find a suit that fits perfectly. Make sure to pick up some American made shirts and ties to go with this all-American suit and you'll be the most patriotic man in the office.

1,190 Euros. What is that is US dollars? And who can afford them?

Suryavarman

Amerika wrote: »

1,190 Euros. What is that is US dollars? And who can afford them? Trump is selling men's suits, but where are they made?

It's around $1,300 I'd say. Plenty of people can afford them. But most people can't afford them because they are made in America. Much like people wouldn't be able to afford most things if they were all made in America.

Trump's suits are made in Mexico. As was shown already.

Black Swan

Amerika wrote: »

Please find me a manufacturer in the US that still makes this stuff.

"Currently, 70 percent of Brooks Brothers suits are made in Massachusetts, 100 percent of the ties are made in New York City, and about 10 percent of the shirts (the luxury and made-to-measure range) are produced in North Carolina. Of course, manufacturing clothes in the United States is nothing new for Brooks Brothers" (Brooks Brothers Official Site). What percentage of Donald Trump Signature Collection is MADE in MEXICO or MADE in CHINA or MADE in BANGLADESH? 838 items of the Ivanka Trump Collection is manufactured foreign.

And if you don't want to talk clothing and accessories, how about where the Trump collection of furniture is made that he sells to US customers? Of course Americans are also incapable of making quality furniture, especially in historic New England. Donald Trump continues to speak out of both sides of his mouth, especially when he continues to sacrifice American jobs to personally profit himself by outsourcing to cheap foreign labour markets, but mysteriously Trump supporters for some inexplicable reasons continue to listen only to what comes out of his big contradictory MOUTH, completely ignoring the facts.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

So your quotes attributed to Trump are apparently bogus then.

That's your argument. I welcome you to support it.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

1,190 Euros. What is that is US dollars? And who can afford them?

I thought the Trump brand stood for quality?

Frankly for suits that hardly sounds like an outlandish sum

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

I thought the Trump brand stood for quality?

Frankly for suits that hardly sounds like an outlandish sum

It is outlandish. I think I saw Trumps suits (or sport coats) selling for about $150. I don't think we could make one here for $150, but I know without crippling business regulations and unions we could make a fine one that would sell for about $500.

Amerika

I was watching MSNBC this morning. They were talking about Trump’s musing that debate moderators shouldn’t pretend to also be factcheckers. Trump said if Hillary or himself say something wrong it is up to the other candidate to correct them, not the moderator who many not have the correct facts. The MSNBC panel seemed to be taken aback by trumps words. They noted it is the job of the media to correct statements that are untrue to their thinking, and the Candy Crowley debacle in the last election is just something that we must accept could happen.

oscarBravo

Amerika wrote: »

It is outlandish. I think I saw Trumps suits (or sport coats) selling for about $150. I don't think we could make one here for $150, but I know without crippling business regulations and unions we could make a fine one that would sell for about $500.

It's amazing how cheaply you can make things when workers are disposable. In fact, to go along with Trump's way of thinking: just imagine how cheap food will be when there's no longer a legal requirement to make sure it doesn't kill people?

Utopian visions, indeed.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

It is outlandish. I think I saw Trumps suits (or sport coats) selling for about $150. I don't think we could make one here for $150, but I know without crippling business regulations and unions we could make a fine one that would sell for about $500.

The going tick for a suit jacket in Clemson is about $500 I think. Bought a sport coat in February for about $400 iirc. The low cost of Trump suits (see them on Amazon..) actually seems strange. Puts him at about the quality and fair-trade level of Walmart.

Meanwhile Saks Fifth or Barneys will sell you a suit if you have the wad, for $4000 or more. While I'm sure there's a hefty markup in there, I'm also willing to bet they're of higher quality. For 1200 Euro? If he could make a suit for 1200 he'd have a market in the US.

But tell me again how Donald Trump wants to bring jobs back to the US.

"Please find me a manufacturer in the US that still makes this stuff."

Not Trump....

K-9

Peist2007 wrote: »

No need to be insulting, very un-Mod like.

Again, simple request - a video of Hillary Clinton setting out her policies should she be elected. I dont have any myself, hence the request.

What do you mean my criteria? Every politician running for Presidential office has to have a set of policies at least. I just cannot seem to find any. Can you post a link of Hillary describing her policies? Not a tough question. If you don't no problem. And i am hardly being picky am i - surely Hillary isnt about to become President with no policies nor any querying of same. So pass on those links, good man

Mod:

Links were provided to you, you said you'd look at them tonight.

Clinton obviously has a set of policies, that they aren't in whatever format you want isn't important.

Anymore of this demanding links that meet your specific standards will be treated as derailing the thread and trolling.

In other words, stop demanding links when they've already been provided.

K-9

Amerika wrote: »

So your quotes attributed to Trump are apparently bogus then.

Did you check the citations?

K-9

Mod:

Everybody else dial back the personal attacks and up the quality of posts.

Btw South Park pics don't meet that standard Overheal!

Overheal

Amerika

K-9 wrote: »

Did you check the citations?

The really nasty ones that everyone remember always keys on...

“Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”

“Laziness is a trait in blacks.”

... came from the book ‘Trumped,’ that was written by a disgruntled ex-employee. There is no evidence he ever said those things.

Hence, they would be just as valid as the Arkansas Flu I noted.

Suryavarman

Amerika wrote: »

It is outlandish. I think I saw Trumps suits (or sport coats) selling for about $150. I don't think we could make one here for $150, but I know without crippling business regulations and unions we could make a fine one that would sell for about $500.

It really isn't outlandish. It's a pretty standard amount for a mid-range suit. That Trump's suits are selling for $150 says a lot about how low quality they are.

Could you give us an example of some of the "crippling business regulations" that are stopping cheap suits from being manufactured in the US?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

The really nasty ones that everyone remember always keys on...

“Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day.”

“Laziness is a trait in blacks.”

... came from the book ‘Trumped,’ that was written by a disgruntled ex-employee. There is no evidence he ever said those things.

Hence, they would be just as valid as the Arkansas Flu I noted.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/donald-trump-blacks-lawsuit_n_855553.html

Trump called O’Donnell a disgruntled employee but he didn’t deny allegations made in the book during an interview with Playboy magazine in 1999:

“Nobody has had worse things written about them than me,” Trump says. “And here I am. The stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true. The guy’s a ****ing loser. A ****ing loser. I brought the guy in to work for me; it turns out he didn’t know that much about what he was doing. I think I met the guy two or three times total. And this guy goes off and writes a book about me, like he knows me!”
Trump’s office has not returned several requests for comment.

Amerika

Suryavarman wrote: »

It really isn't outlandish. It's a pretty standard amount for a mid-range suit. That Trump's suits are selling for $150 says a lot about how low quality they are.

Could you give us an example of some of the "crippling business regulations" that are stopping cheap suits from being manufactured in the US?

The main reasons usually listed by small businesses for going out of business are they’re overtaxed, over-regulated and overburdened. The government tells businesses what they have to pay employees, what benefits they must provide, and make it near impossible to fire a poor performing employees otherwise be hit by frivolous lawsuits. And add to that the heavy obstacles imposed by regulatory agencies in starting a business, and the massive amount of government paperwork needed to be maintained ongoing.

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

The main reasons usually listed by small businesses for going out of business are they’re overtaxed, over-regulated and overburdened. The government tells businesses what they have to pay employees, what benefits they must provide, and make it near impossible to fire a poor performing employees otherwise be hit by frivolous lawsuits. And add to that the heavy obstacles imposed by regulatory agencies in starting a business, and the massive amount of government paperwork needed to be maintained ongoing.

They may the main reasons listed by small businesses, but they're completely subjective. There is no data to support this assertion that I can see.

Also, are they the main reasons listed? Who collects and maintains the list?

Brian?

Amerika wrote: »

The main reasons usually listed by small businesses for going out of business are they’re overtaxed, over-regulated and overburdened. The government tells businesses what they have to pay employees, what benefits they must provide, and make it near impossible to fire a poor performing employees otherwise be hit by frivolous lawsuits. And add to that the heavy obstacles imposed by regulatory agencies in starting a business, and the massive amount of government paperwork needed to be maintained ongoing.

Employment rights are state controlled, not federal. In any "right to work" state, "frivolous lawsuits" are non existent because you don't need a reason to fire anyone.

The rights and wrongs of this can be debated elsewhere though as it has zero to do with a the presidential election and everything to do with state legislature and gubernatorial races.

Suryavarman

Amerika wrote: »

The main reasons usually listed by small businesses for going out of business are they’re overtaxed, over-regulated and overburdened. The government tells businesses what they have to pay employees, what benefits they must provide, and make it near impossible to fire a poor performing employees otherwise be hit by frivolous lawsuits. And add to that the heavy obstacles imposed by regulatory agencies in starting a business, and the massive amount of government paperwork needed to be maintained ongoing.

The minimum wage, employment regulations and pretty much every other regulation in the United States are pretty moderate. None of the reasons you are giving would prevent cheap suits from being manufactured in the US.

Do you have any evidence to back up your ridiculous claims for once?

K-9

Amerika wrote: »

The main reasons usually listed by small businesses for going out of business are they’re overtaxed, over-regulated and overburdened. The government tells businesses what they have to pay employees, what benefits they must provide, and make it near impossible to fire a poor performing employees otherwise be hit by frivolous lawsuits. And add to that the heavy obstacles imposed by regulatory agencies in starting a business, and the massive amount of government paperwork needed to be maintained ongoing.

Whereas when there was less regulation people got fired for frivolous reasons. Unions aren't near as powerful as they used to be so workers need laws to protect them from unscrupulous employers.

The US is No.22 on the ease of doing business index and has slipped down 6 years in a row, so it seems other countries have overtaken them. Interestingly Denmark and Norway are in the top 4, both high tax countries.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kurtbadenhausen/2015/12/16/the-best-countries-for-business-2015/#5e259faf7364

oscarBravo

Amerika wrote: »

The main reasons usually listed by small businesses for going out of business are they’re overtaxed, over-regulated and overburdened. The government tells businesses what they have to pay employees, what benefits they must provide, and make it near impossible to fire a poor performing employees otherwise be hit by frivolous lawsuits. And add to that the heavy obstacles imposed by regulatory agencies in starting a business, and the massive amount of government paperwork needed to be maintained ongoing.

...and yet, many small businesses don't go under. I wonder how they survive the egregious burden of an intrusive government?

As a matter of interest, have you read Upton Sinclair's Jungle?

Amerika

Suryavarman wrote: »

The minimum wage, employment regulations and pretty much every other regulation in the United States are pretty moderate. None of the reasons you are giving would prevent cheap suits from being manufactured in the US.

Do you have any evidence to back up your ridiculous claims for once?

Ask nicely.

Amerika

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and yet, many small businesses don't go under. I wonder how they survive the egregious burden of an intrusive government?

As a matter of interest, have you read Upton Sinclair's Jungle?

96% of businesses in the US fail within 10 years.

And no I haven't read it, but I'll look for it at the local Thrift Store that benefits needy children in the area. But I think I saw a documentary/special on it... meat packing, right?

oscarBravo

Amerika wrote: »

...meat packing, right?

Specifically, yes. But in general, it's about what it's like to be a worker in a world where workers don't have rights.

Billy86

Amerika wrote: »

It is outlandish. I think I saw Trumps suits (or sport coats) selling for about $150. I don't think we could make one here for $150, but I know without crippling business regulations and unions we could make a fine one that would sell for about $500.

"of course its made abroad, it's cheap to buy!"

This is not intended as a personal attack on this poster, but it is nothing short of stunning how Trump supporters have not connected the dots here and the implications of bringing all manufacturing back to the US.

They complain about "the establishment being" "out of touch" and then turn around to say "sure the people who can only afford $150 suits can buy the, $500+ ones and all will be grand."

The education system in the US needs a major overhaul, methinks.






Might just be me, but has only one else noticed Trump hasn't been talking about bringing these jobs home much since his chances of being elected (and having to actually do so) have gone up.

Billy86

Overheal wrote: »

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/donald-trump-blacks-lawsuit_n_855553.html

Trump called O’Donnell a disgruntled employee but he didn’t deny allegations made in the book during an interview with Playboy magazine in 1999:

“Nobody has had worse things written about them than me,” Trump says. “And here I am. The stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true. The guy’s a ****ing loser. A ****ing loser. I brought the guy in to work for me; it turns out he didn’t know that much about what he was doing. I think I met the guy two or three times total. And this guy goes off and writes a book about me, like he knows me!”
Trump’s office has not returned several requests for comment.

This has already been outlined to this poster in the past. I missed the last few pages... Did they claim to have not seen it or something?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

96% of businesses in the US fail within 10 years.

And no I haven't read it, but I'll look for it at the local Thrift Store that benefits needy children in the area. But I think I saw a documentary/special on it... meat packing, right?

That's a pretty cherry pkcked stat. You could probably go into the all things retro forum and find multiple examples of products that don't exist anymore not because of government regulation because their usefulness has faded out. If for example you started a business that sells FireWire cable I feel bad for you but that's not the governments fault.

Look at what happened to the Charleston area after Hugo: significant boom in the number of small businesses opening up in response for home renovation demand from flooding. Naturally most of that business consolidated or dried up. No pun intended

RobertKK

Ted Cruz plans on supporting Trump for the presidency according to CNN.

oik

It is not policies - it is promises. The only details what I found was to return US companies from Ireland and impose populist tax on millionaires.
The rest is usual populist waffling before elections.

Where's that poster who just claimed Sanders didn't move her leftwards?

oik

You're being completely unreasonable, not just picky. No politician ever sets pun their policy platform primarily in speeches. Speeches are for talking points, imagine that. Policies were detailed in pamphlets, no it's done on websites. A detailed policy speech would be excruciating to listen to, so the don't happen. Never really have.

Donald Trump has given policy speeches on immigration (the same day he visited Mexico), the economy (most recently) and that's only the two most recent ones off the top of my head. So, it would appear you are wrong. Expect a speech on race relations very soon. All these speeches are available in full on youtube.

You understand that "policy" does not mean raise taxes by x or y %, policy is a general outline of where you stand on different issues. In other words, when Donald Trump gets up and says we're going to renegotiate trade deals and no TPP, that is policy. Stop and frisk is a policy. Change the rules of engagement regarding ISIS is a policy.

"Cut taxes" is a policy, but cut taxes by x amount is beyond policy and into tax plan territory.

To say that Trump doesn't talk about policy is ludicrous. Switching to policy talk is what has him neck and neck with Clinton at the moment.

Overheal

oik wrote: »

Donald Trump has given policy speeches on immigration (the same day he visited Mexico), the economy (most recently) and that's only the two most recent ones off the top of my head. So, it would appear you are wrong. Expect a speech on race relations very soon. All these speeches are available in full on youtube.

You understand that "policy" does not mean raise taxes by x or y %, policy is a general outline of where you stand on different issues. In other words, when Donald Trump gets up and says we're going to renegotiate trade deals and no TPP, that is policy. Stop and frisk is a policy. Change the rules of engagement regarding ISIS is a policy.

"Cut taxes" is a policy, but cut taxes by x amount is beyond policy and into tax plan territory.

To say that Trump doesn't talk about policy is ludicrous. Switching to policy talk is what has him neck and neck with Clinton at the moment.

Make sweeping proclamations without specifics. Got it. That's policy. Not how you pay for a wall, just build the wall. Not how will Mexico pay for it. Just they will pay for it. Not an understanding of economics just "trade deficits bro"

oik

Make sweeping proclamations without specifics. Got it. That's policy. Not how you pay for a wall, just build the wall. Not how will Mexico pay for it. Just they will pay for it. Not an understanding of economics just "trade deficits bro"

The definition of policy has clearly been warped in your mind through some amount of conditioning to the point where you don't recognise policy when you see it.

Policy: "a course or principle of action adopted or proposed by an organization or individual."

For example:

It is my policy to ignore posters when they appear too stubborn to reason with and turn rude and condescending. I regret to say I'm lacking specifics as to what I'll do with you at this juncture. I'll decide on that when it comes to it, but since you know my policy you know where I stand.

Get it now?

Overheal

oik wrote: »

The definition of policy has clearly been warped in your mind through some amount of conditioning to the point where you don't recognise policy when you see it.

Policy: "a course or principle of action adopted or proposed by an organization or individual."

For example:

It is my policy to ignore posters when they appear too stubborn to reason with and turn rude and condescending. I regret to say I'm lacking specifics as to what I'll do with you at this juncture. I'll decide on that when it comes to it, but since you know my policy you know where I stand.

Get it now?

so the principles of action proposed on the Clinton website are invalid? Why?

oik

It's amazing how cheaply you can make things when workers are disposable. In fact, to go along with Trump's way of thinking: just imagine how cheap food will be when there's no longer a legal requirement to make sure it doesn't kill people?

>If there's no FDA there will be poison in our food

If I poison your food will I be dealing with the Food Safety Authority or An Garda Síochana?

oik

So the principles of action proposed on the Clinton website are invalid? Why?

Don't put words in my mouth and keep better track of who says what.

I'm sure Clinton has acres of policy her lobbyists will either approve of or dismiss once she gets into office.

oscarBravo

oik wrote: »

>If there's no FDA there will be poison in our food

oik wrote: »

Don't put words in my mouth...

The irony is delicious.

Genuine question: do you honestly think that the only way food can kill people is if someone puts poison in it? Or are you feigning ignorance to make a weak point?

oik

"of course its made abroad, it's cheap to buy!"

This is not intended as a personal attack on this poster, but it is nothing short of stunning how Trump supporters have not connected the dots here and the implications of bringing all manufacturing back to the US.

They complain about "the establishment being" "out of touch" and then turn around to say "sure the people who can only afford $150 suits can buy the, $500+ ones and all will be grand."

The education system in the US needs a major overhaul, methinks.



Might just be me, but has only one else noticed Trump hasn't been talking about bringing these jobs home much since his chances of being elected (and having to actually do so) have gone up.

Both Trump and Clinton (and Obama) are promising that jobs won't be sent overseas with Trump further promising to bring some back. By positioning himself more strongly on this issue than Clinton his initial promise seems more believable in people's minds.

Most Trump supporters probably understand on some level that the jobs that have already left aren't coming back but when they consider who's more likely to prevent more leaving, Trump appears stronger on the issue in general and so voters who are concerned about it gravitate to him just like voters on issues to do with race relations and equality will gravitate towards Clinton because she takes stronger stances on those issues.

oik

The irony is delicious.

Genuine question: do you honestly think that the only way food can kill people is if someone puts poison in it? Or are you feigning ignorance to make a weak point?

The irony continues. Are you feigning ignorance about the fact that companies and food producers are liable for contaminated food with or without the FDA?

oscarBravo

oik wrote: »

The irony continues. Are you feigning ignorance about the fact that companies and food producers are liable for contaminated food with or without the FDA?

Liable, as in I can sue them if defective food kills me?

That's sooooooo much better than the evil government requiring that they not kill me in the first place, isn't it?