2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

Count Dooku

uncleoswald wrote: »

Hardly a panic. Whatever happens it's going to be a fairly close election and if Trump does win a large part of that will be third party candidates taking youth votes away from Hillary.

Or of Clinton will lose some votes which will be given to third party candidates as protest where nobody cares how good those candidates are.

Overheal

I wouldn't pay much attention to trolls on Twitter

Suryavarman

So, somebody sent one of Trump's old tax returns to the New York Times. It turns out he claimed a $916mn loss on his tax returns in 1995 and likely didn't pay taxes for up to 18 years. Trump has responded to this revelation, not by denying it, but by taking shots at the New York Times and Hillary Clinton. Predictable as always.

This revelation suggests that Trump didn't pay taxes because he was incompetent, not because he was smart as he claimed in the debate Monday. I'm very much enjoying watching this horrible creature's presidential bid go up in smoke. Roll on the 8th of November.

20Cent

Suryavarman wrote: »

So, somebody sent one of Trump's old tax returns to the New York Times. It turns out he claimed a $916mn loss on his tax returns in 1995 and likely didn't pay taxes for up to 18 years. Trump has responded to this revelation, not by denying it, but by taking shots at the New York Times and Hillary Clinton. Predictable as always.

This revelation suggests that Trump didn't pay taxes because he was incompetent, not because he was smart as he claimed in the debate Monday. I'm very much enjoying watching this horrible creature's presidential bid go up in smoke. Roll on the 8th of November.

Also he wasn't so brave attacking Hillary face to face in the debate. Sneaks off to twitter like a keyboard warrior.

Mr.Micro

Suryavarman wrote: »

So, somebody sent one of Trump's old tax returns to the New York Times. It turns out he claimed a $916mn loss on his tax returns in 1995 and likely didn't pay taxes for up to 18 years. Trump has responded to this revelation, not by denying it, but by taking shots at the New York Times and Hillary Clinton. Predictable as always.

This revelation suggests that Trump didn't pay taxes because he was incompetent, not because he was smart as he claimed in the debate Monday. I'm very much enjoying watching this horrible creature's presidential bid go up in smoke. Roll on the 8th of November.

The mystery to me why is he still on the card? No tax payments, dodged the draft several times back in the day, racist, bigot, rude, ignorant, incompetent and more. What is not to like. He makes Nixon look clean. I would not count him out, simply because it all boils down to him or her, nothing else.

Christy42

20Cent wrote: »

Also he wasn't so brave attacking Hillary face to face in the debate. Sneaks off to twitter like a keyboard warrior.

He could attack Cruz and Rubio who weren't as self confident as Clinton. She has gone through multiple high level interrogations so he can't phase her.

On the other hand his own confidence filters away as soon as he is challenged.

ebbsy

Offsetting current losses against future profits is standard practice in taxation.

I doubt if anyone really cares over there.

ancapailldorcha

Count Dooku wrote: »

Or of Clinton will lose some votes which will be given to third party candidates as protest where nobody cares how good those candidates are.

Please don't just dump links here. Try to add to the discussion please. Thanks.

Igotadose

ebbsy wrote: »

Offsetting current losses against future profits is standard practice in taxation.

I doubt if anyone really cares over there.

He's going to get tens of millions of votes. He could jump around in a tutu in blackface while spewing green pea soup at the next debate and that won't change the fact that he's the nominee of the Republican party. Even if he died before the election he'd get tons of votes.

The US has become a bastion of ignorance and entitlement, and Trump's the result, though he's really the logical successor to Bush II. Even if Trump loses in an epic landslide, the next candidate will be slicker, better at stirring up the self-perceived downtrodden and embracing the so-called alt-right. Campaign 2010 will not be any more civilized than this one, the GOP will be gunning for HRC even harder, especially if they lose the Senate.

So sad. America used to be an o.k. place to live. Glad I'm in Ireland now.

johnnyskeleton

Igotadose wrote: »

He's going to get tens of millions of votes. He could jump around in a tutu in blackface while spewing green pea soup at the next debate and that won't change the fact that he's the nominee of the Republican party. Even if he died before the election he'd get tons of votes.

The US has become a bastion of ignorance and entitlement, and Trump's the result, though he's really the logical successor to Bush II. Even if Trump loses in an epic landslide, the next candidate will be slicker, better at stirring up the self-perceived downtrodden and embracing the so-called alt-right. Campaign 2010 will not be any more civilized than this one, the GOP will be gunning for HRC even harder, especially if they lose the Senate.

So sad. America used to be an o.k. place to live. Glad I'm in Ireland now.

As much as his behaviour seems so very unpresidential at times, he clearly appeals to a large number of people and I dont think this can be explained by pure ignorance or entitlement on the part of the American people. For good or ill a lot of people like what hes saying. I think trying to understand that would help us understand the American people a lot more.

Black Swan

Overheal wrote: »

Interesting, because Trump has a metric ton of debt, including hundreds of millions to the Bank of China, and Goldman Sachs, and hundreds of other investors.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/21/us/politics/donald-trump-debt.html
http://fortune.com/2016/03/23/donald-trump-debt/

And several hunred million more to German lenders

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/30/trumps-unthinkable-conflict-millions-in-debts-to-german-bank-now-facing-federal-fines/

Including owing favors to a Saudi Prince who twice previously bailed him out of debts: http://addictinginfo.org/2016/06/15/saudi-prince-reminds-donald-trump-i-bailed-you-out-twice/

Was your point supposed to be he wouldn't have any conflict of interest in office??

Makes you wonder why Donald Trump will not share his tax returns with the American voter like ALL presidential candidates have for 4 decades? What is he hiding? Are there things in his tax returns that Donald fears will destroy his nomination or chances that he may be elected? Past candidates have shared several years of tax returns, and not all of Donald Trump's tax returns are currently being audited, so not to share those returns unaffected by his current audit suggests that he has something to hide in those returns too.

The New York times obtained a copy of Donald Trump's 1995 tax returns, and not from Donald Trump who may sue NYT for revealing them. They headline 1 October 2016 "Trump Tax Records Obtained by The Times Reveal He Could Have Avoided Paying Taxes for Nearly Two Decades." While most Americans pay their fair share of taxes to support their country, Donald Trump does not? Is this yet another reason why Donald Trump is unfit to represent the American taxpayer?

Suryavarman

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

As much as his behaviour seems so very unpresidential at times, he clearly appeals to a large number of people and I dont think this can be explained by pure ignorance or entitlement on the part of the American people. For good or ill a lot of people like what hes saying. I think trying to understand that would help us understand the American people a lot more.

His support really can be explained by ignorance. There is no smart reason to support Trump. His policy platform is objectively bad and would devastate the US economy. He himself is objectively unfit to be president and nobody with his (lack of) temperament should have anywhere near as much power as the POTUS does. There is an argument that the value of his Supreme Court picks outweigh all his bad points but the people that follow that argument are fooling themselves if they think a few Supreme Courts picks outweigh the non-zero probability of Trump starting a nuclear war.

People support Trump because they are so blinded by ignorance and fear of a female President that they think he would be anything other than a disaster. There has never been a major party nominee more unsuited to be President than Trump. This isn't hyperbole. I disagree with Mike Pence on many issues and I think he would be a bad president but I don't believe he is unfit to be President. I have said, and continue to believe, that Bernie Sanders's policy platform was just as bad and economically illiterate as Trump's but I don't believe he is unfit to be President. Trump is completely incapable of handling criticism and resorts to insults every time he is criticised, showing little thought about the consequences of his actions. He has seriously asked why America doesn't use nuclear weapons. How is this man supposed to engage in diplomacy or react in a rational manner to a crisis situation?

Many people that support Trump have legitimate grievances and it's important to understand that and take action to address those concerns. Nothing Trump proposes would actually help these people though. Just because these people are stupid enough, racist enough, or sexist enough to support Trump doesn't mean there are good reasons to support him. His policies would weaken the economy, weaken America's global standing and increase division in an already divided society. Many could argue that Hillary Clinton would do likewise but nobody could argue that she'd be a worse President than Trump.

BorneTobyWilde

Trump needs to stick to the fight and not get distracted. Clinton is corrupt and self serving. Obama and Clinton sit back and watch Russia and Syria bomb hospitals in Alleppo, they watch on as innocent people are being killed, a lot of them women and kids.
They offer no protect. USA is a joke under Obama and Clinton. So weak, Russia is laughing as US .

Suryavarman

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump needs to stick to the fight and not get distracted.

He's completely incapable of doing so.

Clinton is corrupt and self serving.

Evidence?

Obama and Clinton sit back and watch Russia and Syria bomb hospitals in Alleppo, they watch on as innocent people are being killed, a lot of them women and kids.

Clinton is doing no such thing as she has no power to do such a thing. Clinton does promise a more aggressive foreign policy in Syria and her goal there is to depose Assad. Trump on the other hand is a known Russophile who will avoid confrontation with Russia and its allies at all costs.

They offer no protect. USA is a joke under Obama and Clinton. So weak, Russia is laughing as US .

Imagine how hard Russia will laugh when their preferred candidate gets elected.

RobertKK

Black Swan wrote: »

Methinks that Trump is just being Trump. He is generally acting now just like he did during the Republican primaries.

The federal deficit doubled for the first time during Ronald Reagan's Cold War arms race with USSR, and has been rapidly rising almost every administration since, regardless of which party controlled the presidency or Congress (Congress being the institution that actually legislates federal debt).

Historically speaking I doubt that it's any more unstable than before, especially if we are comparing war with peace. According to Durant and Durant in The Lessons of History, "History and War" chapter (p.81):

"War is one of the constants of history, and has not diminished with civilization or democracy. In the last 3,421 years of recorded history only 268 have seen no war."

It really does not matter if we are addressing conventional war, nuclear war, or nonconventional war (e.g., terrorism, etc.). Peace has been abnormal and war normal in human history, so today's threats of war or active nonconventional wars are normal, as they were in the historical past.


Methinks the 2016 presidential election is a choice between bureaucrat Clinton and con-artist Trump, neither good choices. And, once again, to say that one is better than the other, or the lesser of evils, requires a leap-of-faith, and not one based upon reason.

Trump being Trump, I don't know what he think he can benefit from his war with a former Miss universe. Maybe he wants to paint Clinton as having bad judgment by using her, but this is just silly stuff, so much wrong in thew world and the Clintons using a Miss Universe and Trump playing along...

The problem with the national debt is the US cannot keep doubling it every so many years. From $9 trillion to $20 trillion in 8 years says 'out of control', a debt from propping up the economy and wars and no sign that there will be any real change to it.

Maybe I am pessimistic, normally optimistic but there is like a darkness in the world. In my opinion with the Arab Spring it has brought a lot more instability and uncertainty into the world.
There are a lot of tensions, the Russians finally got fed up of the US after being ignored over Iraq and Libya and have become pro-active. Some think the fault is the Russians, but if your idea of repairing damage done which Clinton voted for, is to give a reset button and then simply ignore Russia when it warns about removing Gaddafi then there will be consequences.
I think the ignorance of Clinton is astounding and I think she will be the next president.
A Trump presidency could bring great instability and will not be good, but I am 100% sure a Hillary Clinton presidency will be a disaster.
The EU is in trouble, and Brexit has been so damaging.
If France keeps being attacked then Le Pen could win despite people dismissing it.
I just think the world is in a right mess right now.

I think whoever is president, the methods of war are more dangerous than ever.
A state hacker could turn off the power supply to a country, and disable it, maybe put in viruses into the systems which was done to Iran's nuclear program.
Computers are now a more effective weapon than having a direct war.
We see in this election how the Democrats cyber security has been extremely poor.

I think whoever one wants to win, be careful what you wish for, I think it is going to be an election that will be better to lose.
Anyone who thinks the person they support has the answers or is competent, has been an ostrich in this election.
This election is a disaster whoever wins.

RobertKK

Suryavarman wrote: »

Yeah. That's what he's doing. It's nothing to do with him being an incompetent, petulant manchild.

One can argue who is more incompetent.
Trump with his $900 million + income loss in 1995 which he could use to write against income tax for 18 years or so.
Clinton who was directly involved in destroying entire nations - vehemently supporting Bush's disastrous Iraq war and was all over the destruction of Libya and handing the nation to terrorists.
Clinton was warned by Russia about removing Gaddafi, but we can talk about how petulant and incompetent Clinton can be.

Suryavarman

RobertKK wrote: »

One can argue who is more incompetent.
Trump with his $900 million + income loss in 1995 which he could use to write against income tax for 18 years or so.

Losing $916mn is pretty incompetent.

Clinton who was directly involved in destroying entire nations - vehemently supporting Bush's disastrous Iraq war and was all over the destruction of Libya and handing the nation to terrorists.

Despite it being in the midst of civil war Libya is still freer than it ever was under Gaddafi. Gaddafi was only overthrown five years ago. It's far too early to say whether or not intervention there was a success or a failure. You also seem to be under the impression that Gaddafi would still be in power if America never joined the coalition that overthrew Gaddafi which is pretty naive.

Clinton was warned by Russia about removing Gaddafi, but we can talk about how petulant and incompetent Clinton can be.

Link to a video or an article documenting Clinton's petulance please.

Skylinehead

RobertKK wrote: »

Clinton who was directly involved in destroying entire nations - vehemently supporting Bush's disastrous Iraq war and was all over the destruction of Libya and handing the nation to terrorists.

It utterly baffles me how you can keep bringing this up while singing the praises of Condoleeza Rice. It's inherently hypocritical.

Black Swan

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Clinton is corrupt and self serving.

Donald Trump is not "corrupt and self serving" too? Hillary Clinton is not a defendant in 3 different courts found in New York and California TODAY being tried for (alleged) "Fraud, racketeering, and corruption," and Donald Trump is. Trump is currently scheduled to appear as a defendant 28 November 2016 in US District Court in San Diego, California.

One of the reasons (2 days ago) why the editorial board of USA Today encouraged voters NOT to vote for Donald Trump 30 September 2016 cited "allegations of FRAUD by Trump University customers."

2010 FAILED Trump University says a lot about the REAL Donald Trump. Can anyone remember a presidential nominee for either the Republican or Democratic parties that was a defendant in a US District Court for (alleged) "Fraud, racketeering, and corruption" at the SAME TIME as running for US president? Should this be a Guinness World Records entry for Donald Trump, or should we just meet at an Irish pub, drink Guinness, and all laugh at the absurdity of this year's US presidential election?

RobertKK wrote: »

Trump being Trump, I don't know what he think he can benefit from his war with a former Miss universe.

Donald Trump takes precious time night-and-day during the past election week to save the Universe?

Billy86

RobertKK wrote: »

Trump being Trump, I don't know what he think he can benefit from his war with a former Miss universe. Maybe he wants to paint Clinton as having bad judgment by using her, but this is just silly stuff, so much wrong in thew world and the Clintons using a Miss Universe and Trump playing along...

Afraid that's not it, it was Clinton who brought her up at the end of the last debate. I remember thinking it was a bit odd at the time she was saying it, but made sense by the end. I'm not sure even she expected what has happened the last few days, though it should have been obvious. Plenty of us have been saying for a good year or so that Trump is a textbook narcissist to an extreme extent, and he has been in utter meltdown mode over it all week, unable to even come close to handling negative press, he has been obsessed with doing all he can to vilify Machado and Clinton as a result, and to say it has backfired on him would be a wild understatement.

He's been played like a fiddle, basically. It's a good preview of what other world leaders would do to him constantly were he to win the election. And he'd be played like a fiddle by them, too.

InTheTrees

Billy86 wrote: »

He's been played like a fiddle, basically. It's a good preview of what other world leaders would do to him constantly were he to win the election. And he'd be played like a fiddle by them, too.

Yes. The Clinton campaign knew exactly what they were doing bringing her into the debate. Remember the Khans? It took trump a week to get over them too.

And trump is that stupid he didn't see it coming.

I wonder who they'll bring to the next debate?

Brian?

RobertKK wrote: »

One can argue who is more incompetent.
Trump with his $900 million + income loss in 1995 which he could use to write against income tax for 18 years or so.
Clinton who was directly involved in destroying entire nations - vehemently supporting Bush's disastrous Iraq war and was all over the destruction of Libya and handing the nation to terrorists.
Clinton was warned by Russia about removing Gaddafi, but we can talk about how petulant and incompetent Clinton can be.

Did you just admit Trump was incompetent? Just not as bad as Hillary.

Billy86

Brian? wrote: »

Did you just admit Trump was incompetent? Just not as bad as Hillary.

To be fair with Robert, his stance if I recall has pretty much been 100% anti-Clinton from the get go, as opposed to being a Trump cheerleader (unlike some who have only in the last few days have pretended that's not been the case with them all along).

BorneTobyWilde

Trump has made mistakes.
No one is voting for the Trump of 20 years ago, or the Clinton of 20 years ago.
Today's Trump is better than Clinton. As President Trump will be advised heavily , he would not control things he has no knowledge of . He would be a strong figure head at most. Obama is but a puppet, he has done nothing for the black vote that got him elected. That is his legacy, he has being a slave to congress

B_Wayne

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump has made mistakes.
No one is voting for the Trump of 20 years ago, or the Clinton of 20 years ago.
Today's Trump is better than Clinton. As President Trump will be advised heavily , he would not control things he has no knowledge of . He would be a strong figure head at most. Obama is but a puppet, he has done nothing for the black vote that got him elected. That is his legacy, he has being a slave to congress

From what I can see, Trump is viewed as a laughing stock international. That is not a strong figurehead, it's a national humiliation.

Christy42

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump has made mistakes.
No one is voting for the Trump of 20 years ago, or the Clinton of 20 years ago.
Today's Trump is better than Clinton. As President Trump will be advised heavily , he would not control things he has no knowledge of . He would be a strong figure head at most. Obama is but a puppet, he has done nothing for the black vote that got him elected. That is his legacy, he has being a slave to congress

Surely if all you are electing is a figurehead you want the one that isn't going to insult foreign leaders randomly?

Things Trump has no knowledge extends to pretty much everything involved in running a country. Including meeting with foreign politicians.

Anyway what good will advise do? Look how hard his campaign team has worked to try and get him to not go off script this summer and they still failed on occasion.

No matter how you twist and obscure whst the presidency means Clinton is a far superior choice.

InTheTrees

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump has made mistakes.

He lost Nine Hundred Million Dollars.

It explains why he doesnt want any more of his tax returns revealed.

Except...he claims its smart. And today he has chris christie and rudy guilani out telling the news outlets that he's a "genius" for paying so little.

SO if its genius then why doesnt he release the tax returns?

Calina

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump has made mistakes.
No one is voting for the Trump of 20 years ago, or the Clinton of 20 years ago.
Today's Trump is better than Clinton. As President Trump will be advised heavily , he would not control things he has no knowledge of . He would be a strong figure head at most. Obama is but a puppet, he has done nothing for the black vote that got him elected. That is his legacy, he has being a slave to congress

The advising Trump on the campaign has gone pretty bloody awful so far. I remain unconvinced he can be led while POTUS if he can't be led while nominated candidate.

oik

Losing $916mn is pretty incompetent.

It's not incompetence if you earn it all back. Just bad luck.

Would like to see you or anyone else come back from being 900m in the hole.



This wasn't a secret either. He even wrote a book about it called "the Art of the Comeback"

oik

From what I can see, Trump is viewed as a laughing stock international. That is not a strong figurehead, it's a national humiliation.

Obama as a leader is respected by everyone outside of America except for foreign leaders, particularly the ones who matter, Xi and Putin.



Can someone also explain why I can't quote posts?

bajer101

Trump goes off script at Pennsylvanian rally. He has to be purposely trying to throw the election at this stage.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/02/as-news-of-trumps-taxes-broke-he-goes-off-script-at-a-rally-in-pennsylvania/#

Nody

bajer101 wrote: »

Trump goes off script at Pennsylvanian rally. He has to be purposely trying to throw the election at this stage.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/10/02/as-news-of-trumps-taxes-broke-he-goes-off-script-at-a-rally-in-pennsylvania/#

No he simply is used to everyone saying yes to what ever he proposes; heck at that rally he could have said he'd launch a spaceship to Mars during his presidency and that he'd make Kim Il Jung wear a pink dress and they would not only cheer him on but believe him as well which makes him think he's doing it right (positive reinforcement of behavior). The simple fact is all he's showing is his lack of self control and the fact he'd would send out status updates on twitter from every meeting "With @PutinRussia and making dealz!"

Overheal

I worry under trump how many countries will try to push his buttons. Probably keeps the admirals up at night just thinking about it.

Billy86

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trump has made mistakes.
No one is voting for the Trump of 20 years ago, or the Clinton of 20 years ago.
Today's Trump is better than Clinton. As President Trump will be advised heavily , he would not control things he has no knowledge of . He would be a strong figure head at most. Obama is but a puppet, he has done nothing for the black vote that got him elected. That is his legacy, he has being a slave to congress

Trump has already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is entirely unable to follow advise. Completely and utterly. His campaign have basically been begging him to shut the f*ck up for a while now, and instead he carries on digging his own grave at 3am on Twitter.

You'll need to find another way to try justifying why he would be better. Especially since you then turn around and say Obama doing what you incorrectly think makes Trump better is what makes him worse.

Trump fans seem to really be struggling this week.

oik

Risks of a Trump presidency:

Temperament: Trump's deposition video proves beyond a doubt that he can be disciplined, calm and affable behind closed doors, which is where it really matters. I would link it but not enough posts.

Riots. Bound to happen but will subside

Health. 70 years old, can't rule it out, but not a serious risk to the country.

Inexperienced. He was inexperienced when he entered the real estate business, and the golf business and the casino business(!) and reality TV and basically everything he's done. He has achieved far more success than failures. If there was anyone who could enter a new field without experience and succeed it would be Trump. Besides, there really is no job that prepares you for the presidency. Not even governor or senator. Secretary of state is probably the closest you get.

Self inflicted economic woes:
Trump's tax cuts are actually close to those recommended by the Simpson Bowles report which Obama ignored but Bill Clinton said would cause 1.6 trillion additional investment by US headquartered companies. That's a Clinton endorsement of Trump's tax plan. The report predicted that it would broaden the tax base and actually increase revenues.

That's not what we're being told now by the lying media, but who still believes them? I'll take a bipartisan report and a successful president's recommendation over some unpaid intern at the Washington Post.

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

Christy42

oik wrote: »

Risks of a Trump presidency:

Temperament: Trump's deposition video proves beyond a doubt that he can be disciplined, calm and affable behind closed doors, which is where it really matters. I would link it but not enough posts.

Riots. Bound to happen but will subside

Health. 70 years old, can't rule it out, but not a serious risk to the country.

Inexperienced. He was inexperienced when he entered the real estate business, and the golf business and the casino business(!) and reality TV and basically everything he's done. He has achieved far more success than failures. If there was anyone who could enter a new field without experience and succeed it would be Trump. Besides, there really is no job that prepares you for the presidency. Not even governor or senator. Secretary of state is probably the closest you get.

Self inflicted economic woes:
Trump's tax cuts are actually close to those recommended by the Simpson Bowles report which Obama ignored but Bill Clinton said would cause 1.6 trillion additional investment by US headquartered companies. That's a Clinton endorsement of Trump's tax plan. The report predicted that it would broaden the tax base and actually increase revenues.

That's not what we're being told now by the lying media, but who still believes them? I'll take a bipartisan report and a successful president's recommendation over some unpaid intern at the Washington Post.

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

And Gandalf came to save the day.

You just made up a load of stuff. War is more likely with Trump. He has said do onultiple occasions. The debate shows he has no temperament for the job and goes to pieces whenever anyone mentions the size of his bank balance.
Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration.

Trump's health is of far more concern. Well maybe less as Pence would be a terrible but better president than Trump. Hillary has shown during the 60 minute debate that the people crying that she is dying are about as sane as those who think Obama was born in Kenya and that global warning is a hoax by the Chinese.

20Cent

oik wrote: »

Risks of a Trump presidency:

Temperament: Trump's deposition video proves beyond a doubt that he can be disciplined, calm and affable behind closed doors, which is where it really matters. I would link it but not enough posts.

Riots. Bound to happen but will subside

Health. 70 years old, can't rule it out, but not a serious risk to the country.

Inexperienced. He was inexperienced when he entered the real estate business, and the golf business and the casino business(!) and reality TV and basically everything he's done. He has achieved far more success than failures. If there was anyone who could enter a new field without experience and succeed it would be Trump. Besides, there really is no job that prepares you for the presidency. Not even governor or senator. Secretary of state is probably the closest you get.

Self inflicted economic woes:
Trump's tax cuts are actually close to those recommended by the Simpson Bowles report which Obama ignored but Bill Clinton said would cause 1.6 trillion additional investment by US headquartered companies. That's a Clinton endorsement of Trump's tax plan. The report predicted that it would broaden the tax base and actually increase revenues.

That's not what we're being told now by the lying media, but who still believes them? I'll take a bipartisan report and a successful president's recommendation over some unpaid intern at the Washington Post.

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

How do you know he's a successful businessman?

oik

And Gandalf came to save the day.

You just made up a load of stuff. War is more likely with Trump. He has said do onultiple occasions. The debate shows he has no temperament for the job and goes to pieces whenever anyone mentions the size of his bank balance.
Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration.

Trump's health is of far more concern. Well maybe less as Pence would be a terrible but better president than Trump. Hillary has shown during the 60 minute debate that the people crying that she is dying are about as sane as those who think Obama was born in Kenya and that global warning is a hoax by the Chinese.

War is more likely with Trump:
Based on what? Trump is the less hawkish of the two by any measure except military spending which arguable is more likely to prevent war than cause it.

The debate shows he has no temperament for the job:
He had one bad debate. A debate is no indication of his temperament behind the scenes. Obama had one bad debate, at the time called the worst debate performance in modern history by an incumbent in a national election.

Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration:
This has been asserted and asserted and asserted but it's as flimsy and wishy washy an assertion as they come. What is a rallying call exactly? Who is rallying who? And why should we believe that terrorist recruitment will be worse under Trumps immigration policy than Clinton's interventionist policy?

Your last sentence is just political stereotyping. Demonstrated by sociological research to be the least accurate form of stereotyping.

Billy86

oik wrote: »

Risks of a HIllary presidency:

War: Exponentially higher chance of a foreign intervention. She supported every foreign intervention since she entered politics.

100% applicable to Trump who supported both Iraq and Libya, and has said he plans to "bomb the sh*t" out of the middle east.

Foreign influence: Charles Krauthammer's article in the National Review outlines how foreign donors launder money through Canada into the Clinton Foundation and use it to buy influence. There's nothing to stop that from continuing when she is president.

100% applicable to Trump who is heavily indebted to both Russian and Saudi benefactors, as well as likely many others as a result of his multiple bankruptcies and inability to get many loans off US institutions anymore, as a result of these.

Health: Hillary's health is a bigger concern than Trump's.

Entirely untrue, as evidenced by Trump's sniffling and guzzling down of water during the debate, it was too much exertion for a man his age who was unable to serve in the military due to poor health, who is very noticeably overweight, is older than Clinton, and is a male (lower life expectancy).

Immigration:
Her laxed immigration policy could lead to an increase in terrorist attacks

Untrue as illegal immigration has been on the decline in the US for a decade and shows no sign of changing.

Trump's plans on the other hand, would be to ISIS what Thatcher was to the IRA, and then some. I'm betting we will see a few attempts between now and the election from them and/or other terrorist cells trying to engineer a paranoid vote in his favour. Make no doubt about it, these terrorist groups love 'their people' becoming disaffected and feeling unwanted or unwelcome, and Trump would play right into their hands on it. Not too differently to how he has played right into Clinton's hands on a number of occasions in the last month or two - such is the case when you (rather, he) has such an utter lack of self awareness or ability to think things through.

Lack of transparency:
Obama has been less transparent than most but Hillary Clinton takes the cake when it comes to a lack of transparency.

Get back to me on this when we've seen Trump's tax returns, among all his other shady secrets. He can consider himself very lucky that the tame US media has given him an easy ride this election cycle by typically just repeating what he says (to the anger of his own followers, something truly perplexing) rather than delving deeply into other issues like they did (rightly, I should add) with Clinton's emails, such as his multiple fraud cases coming up in November for stealing millions off the US public.

oik

US media has given him an easy ride this election.

Uh huh, tell me more about that.

Billy86

oik wrote: »

Uh huh, tell me more about that.

Like I said, they typically just repeat what he said and Trump supporters get very, very upset about it - it's one of the more mystifying things in any election, possibly ever. Fact is, he's got an easy ride for the most part considering his past. For example, how much coverage Trump's upcoming multiple trials for defrauding millions of dollars from the US public have gotten, compared to Clinton's email scandal? You didn't seem keen to include that part of my post in the quote.

How much mention have his other three thousand, five hundred (yes, 3,500) lawsuits gotten during this election cycle? Or his well documented pally relations with the mafia? And that's just scratching the surface. Like I said, an easy ride has been given to him by the media and that's really all there is to it.

I see you concede on all the other points, though. So there's that at least.

Overheal

oik wrote: »

Uh huh, tell me more about that.

K

http://www.salon.com/2016/08/24/sean-hannity-has-given-donald-trump-31-million-in-free-coverage-reports-media-matters/

conditioned games

Hillary Clinton off resting up again for 3 days, will make a 15 minute speech in a half empty basketball stadium and then disappear again. Trump travelling around the country giving speeches to 15 and 20 thousand with people queuing outside door.

We all better hope Clinton never becomes president. The US are craving war, ensured peace talks in Syria ended by dropping bomb on government forces in east of country killing 60 saying it was accident, now they want to cut off talks with Russia and drag the west into war with east. Clinton is bad bad.

oik

>Using Sean Hannity as representative of the entire media when he's not even part of the mainstream in his own network.

Try harder.

oik

I see you concede on all the other points, though.

Where did I do that?

oik

Trump's tax returns

You're confusing transparency in office with transparency in one's private life. Those are two separate things. Trump's tax returns are an entirely private matter. This is just a fad started a few decades ago that has nothing whatsoever to do with fitness for the presidency.

Did you know Clinton was ridiculed a few years ago for deducting $2 for underwear she donated to charity in her tax returns? So it seems Trump is not alone in wanting to reduce his tax burden.

Billy86

oik wrote: »

Where did I do that?

When you were unable to refute them. Fact is, almost everything Trump fans love to moan about when it comes to Clinton, are completely applicable back to him.

oik wrote: »

You're confusing transparency in office with transparency in one's private life. Those are two separate things. Trump's tax returns are an entirely private matter. This is just a fad started a few decades ago that has nothing whatsoever to do with fitness for the presidency.

Did you know Clinton was ridiculed a few years ago for deducting $2 for underwear she donated to charity in her tax returns? So it seems Trump is not alone in wanting to reduce his tax burden.

Sorry, but when Trump has ZERO experience in office, even at the lowest end, his transparency as a candidate is all he can be judged on. It's as simple as that, otherwise I'm a better businessman than Trump because I've not claimed bankruptcy once, never mind four times. And as a candidate (or a businessman, where again he has a long, long, long history of being very shady and anything but transparent), he continues to refuse to show his taxes - because, in part, he doesn't pay them, which he also lied about Monday. The fact checker's consistently showing him piling lies on top of lies on top of lies also prove this false.

$2.00... $900,000,000.00... sure what's the difference, right? :rolleyes:

Fact is, you wanted to claim Trump is 'more transparent' than Clinton, but he isn't. It's that simple. If you're trying to now shift the goalposts and claim he is 'as a politician' and are basing that simply on the fact that he has ZERO experience in politics, then by that same token I'm a better businessman than he is. It's a cop out.

B_Wayne

conditioned games wrote: »

Hillary Clinton off resting up again for 3 days, will make a 15 minute speech in a half empty basketball stadium and then disappear again. Trump travelling around the country giving speeches to 15 and 20 thousand with people queuing outside door.

We all better hope Clinton never becomes president. The US are craving war, ensured peace talks in Syria ended by dropping bomb on government forces in east of country killing 60 saying it was accident, now they want to cut off talks with Russia and drag the west into war with east. Clinton is bad bad.

Yet Trump couldn't competently handle a 90 minute debate with Hillary Clinton.... You sure you've thought this true?

Christy42

oik wrote: »

War is more likely with Trump:
Based on what? Trump is the less hawkish of the two by any measure except military spending which arguable is more likely to prevent war than cause it.

The debate shows he has no temperament for the job:
He had one bad debate. A debate is no indication of his temperament behind the scenes. Obama had one bad debate, at the time called the worst debate performance in modern history by an incumbent in a national election.

Trump's immigration policy will serve as a rallying call for terrorists without slowing down immigration:
This has been asserted and asserted and asserted but it's as flimsy and wishy washy an assertion as they come. What is a rallying call exactly? Who is rallying who? And why should we believe that terrorist recruitment will be worse under Trumps immigration policy than Clinton's interventionist policy?

Your last sentence is just political stereotyping. Demonstrated by sociological research to be the least accurate form of stereotyping.

When he said he would bomb the **** of the middle east.

Sorry see pretty much any debate by Trump plus a host of tv appearances. I mean he promised to pay legal fees for anyone who assaulted his opponent's supporters. He cried about his opponents being mean.

Isis recruiters will use this to tell Muslims that they are being oppressed. It is a lot harder to tell them they aren't being discriminated against when you are disriminating against them.

Hardly. Conspiracy theorists tend to believe conspiracy theories. You have 0 evidence of Hillary's I'll health. You may also note that I chose conspiracy theories that Trump believes (the fact that he leaves his house without a tin foil hat is impressive really).

conditioned games

B_Wayne wrote: »

Yet Trump couldn't competently handle a 90 minute debate with Hillary Clinton.... You sure you've thought this true?

He got his message across, all online polls including reputable ones had him destroying Clinton. Mainstream media had Clinton win, these are controlled media corporations owned by wealthy elite people that don't represent the average American. He needs to attack more next time but still his message is powerful and with the crowds his getting I'm confident he can win for the ordinary man and woman.