2016 U.S. Presidential Race Megathread Mark 2.

Christy42

Amerika wrote: »

Trump tackled the issue in his speech...

"As you know, I am not a politician. I have worked in business, creating jobs and rebuilding neighborhoods my entire adult life. I’ve never wanted to learn the language of the insiders, and I’ve never been politically correct – it takes far too much time, and can often make more difficult.

Sometimes, in the heat of debate and speaking on a multitude of issues, you don’t choose the right words or you say the wrong thing. I have done that, and I regret it, particularly where it may have caused personal pain. Too much is at stake for us to be consumed with these issues."

I've read quite a bit today of the mainstream media's response to his speech yesterday. It appears they're devoting all their resources into one line "In this journey, I will never lie to you.," and ignoring all the rest. Just think of what we would find out if the media spent 1/10th the energy they put into Trump on a regular basis into investigating Hillary's lies.

I don't know any politicians but everyone I do know can compose themselves better than Trump. It isn't that he doesn't have the language of politicians he doesn't have the language of ordinary people.

You have a candidate who can't be trusted to talk for himself without saying incredibly stupid. The media are not putting in that much effort to taking down Trump, it simply isn't needed. It takes minimal research/thought to disprove/critique what he says. This is the easiest the media have been able to churn out stories about a politician.

Even just people supporting him can't be trusted such as a certain ex mayor of new York forgetting that 9/11 happened (making Trump's forgetting the date of it seem mild in comparison).

Akrasia

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't know any politicians but everyone I do know can compose themselves better than Trump. It isn't that he doesn't have the language of politicians he doesn't have the language of ordinary people..

But Trump knows words, he has the best words....


Trump is 'apologising' now for being politically incorrect, but he hasn't got any excuse for the times when he said that the U.S. should target the families of suspected terrorists, or then he said he will bring back waterboarding, and much worse than waterboarding, or the nonsense he said about building a giant wall and getting mexico to pay for it......

Amerika

Suryavarman wrote: »

Her policies indicate that she will mostly proceed along the same path as Obama. I think Obama has been a good president and someone that offers a continuation of his policies is a good candidate. Stability is to be valued.

She was instrumental in getting CHIP passed as first lady. That is probably her most famous achievement.

We should start a ‘BOARDS ON FIRE’ designation. Senator Ted Kennedy (D) and Senator Orrin Hatch (R) were the prime movers behind CHIP. Hillary now claims as First Lady to "working” to get the program enacted and taking part in the process "with Democrats and Republicans.” Investigations show that Hillary talked to Kennedy once about it and never to Hatch. Not a single Republican on record in the past nearly 20 years has any recollection of her “working with them” on it. Hillary may have been in favor of it, but that hardly constitutes being instrumental, or even worthy of mention, in the process. And that is her most famous achievement? :rolleyes:

Suryavarman

Amerika wrote: »

We should start a ‘BOARDS ON FIRE’ designation. Senator Ted Kennedy (D) and Senator Orrin Hatch (R) were the prime movers behind CHIP. Hillary now claims as First Lady to "working” to get the program enacted and taking part in the process "with Democrats and Republicans.” Investigations show that Hillary talked to Kennedy once about it and never to Hatch. Not a single Republican on record in the past nearly 20 years has any recollection of her “working with them” on it. Hillary may have been in favor of it, but that hardly constitutes being instrumental, or even worthy of mention, in the process. And that is her most famous achievement? :rolleyes:

*yawns*

Amerika

B_Wayne wrote: »

Not being politically correct for Trump is insulting ever demographic he can think of. The fact he can't even be slightly diplomatic is a pretty terrible sign of a president. The fact that he regularly expresses views that sound like Nixon's private phonecalls, once again a sign of a terrible president.

Amerika, you're annoyed that the media report what Trump says..

I'm annoyed the focus is on the unimportant things regarding Trump and the media ignores that of substance. I had to go digging for anything worth while regarding his speech. All the headline were consumed with him claiming he doesn't lie in his speech.

Amerika

Suryavarman wrote: »

*yawns*

Anything better than that to offer?

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Investigations show that Hillary talked to Kennedy once about it and never to Hatch. Not a single Republican on record in the past nearly 20 years has any recollection of her “working with them” on it. Hillary may have been in favor of it, but that hardly constitutes being instrumental, or even worthy of mention, in the process. And that is her most famous achievement? :rolleyes:

The fact checkers seem to tell a different story:

Yet, in 2007, Kennedy told the Associated Press that Hillary Clinton played a critical role.

"The children's health program wouldn't be in existence today if we didn't have Hillary pushing for it from the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue," Kennedy said.

Nick Littlefield, a senior health adviser to Kennedy at the time, agreed.

"She wasn't a legislator, she didn't write the law, and she wasn't the president, so she didn't make the decisions," Littlefield told the Associated Press. "But we relied on her, worked with her and she was pivotal in encouraging the White House to do it."

http://www.politifact.com/colorado/statements/2016/feb/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-wrong-sanders-claim/

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

The fact checkers seem to tell a different story:

Yet, in 2007, Kennedy told the Associated Press that Hillary Clinton played a critical role.

"The children's health program wouldn't be in existence today if we didn't have Hillary pushing for it from the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue," Kennedy said.

Nick Littlefield, a senior health adviser to Kennedy at the time, agreed.

"She wasn't a legislator, she didn't write the law, and she wasn't the president, so she didn't make the decisions," Littlefield told the Associated Press. "But we relied on her, worked with her and she was pivotal in encouraging the White House to do it."

http://www.politifact.com/colorado/statements/2016/feb/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-wrong-sanders-claim/

Too bad Ted isn't around to tell us where these secret undocumented meetings took place that made her so pivotal. My guess is the First Lady, in the Rose Garden, with the Candlestick.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/20/another-claim-of-a-hillary-clinton-accomplishment-goes-up-in-flames/

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Too bad Ted isn't around to tell us where these secret undocumented meetings took place that made her so pivotal. My guess is the First Lady, in the Rose Garden, with the Candlestick.

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/20/another-claim-of-a-hillary-clinton-accomplishment-goes-up-in-flames/

Your guess doesn't really matter in the face of Kennedy and his staff stating, unambiguously, that Hillary was instrumental in pushing the legislation forward.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

Your guess doesn't really matter in the face of Kennedy and his staff stating, unambiguously, that Hillary was instrumental in pushing the legislation forward.

Seems there are conflicting reports to this fairy tale.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/14/clinton_role_in_health_program_disputed/

"Asked whether Clinton was exaggerating her role in creating SCHIP, Kennedy, stopped in the hallway as he was entering the chamber to vote, half-shrugged."

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Seems there are conflicting reports to this fairy tale.

http://archive.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/03/14/clinton_role_in_health_program_disputed/

That's not a conflicting view - it's Hatch stating he doesn't know what role Hillary played in the Whitehouse. Kennedy did, and was very clear that it was an instrumental role. I'm sure Nick Littlefield would be only too happy to confirm this - once again.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

That's not a conflicting view - it's Hatch stating he doesn't know what role Hillary played in the Whitehouse. Kennedy did, and was very clear that it was an instrumental role. I'm sure Nick Littlefield would be only too happy to confirm this - once again.

Clear as mud IMO after reading numerous accounts. But Hillary never lies, right?

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

Clear as mud IMO after reading numerous accounts. But Hillary never lies, right?

Straw man arguments aside. You've had those who were best placed to know stating that her involvement was crucial, which is the core issue to hand. She clearly didn't create the legislation, or initiate anything, but she ensured that it flew in the Whitehouse. Nothing too difficult to grasp there.

Amerika

alastair wrote: »

Straw man arguments aside. You've had those who were best placed to know stating that her involvement was crucial, which is the core issue to hand. She clearly didn't create the legislation, or initiate anything, but she ensured that it flew in the Whitehouse. Nothing too difficult to grasp there.

You ignore the elephant in the room. She claimed to have worked with Democrats and Republicans to get something done. They can't find a single Republican who she 'reportedly' worked with.

alastair

Amerika wrote: »

You ignore the elephant in the room. She claimed to have worked with Democrats and Republicans to get something done. They can't find a single Republican who she 'reportedly' worked with.

I'm dealing with the claim, posted on this thread - that you disputed, and which, with the direct testimony of those involved, is shown to be an accurate one. You can drag up whatever other claims you like, but I'll stick to the one made by the poster here, that you disputed. Turns out it's true.

She was instrumental in getting CHIP passed as first lady. That is probably her most famous achievement.

B_Wayne

Amerika wrote: »

I'm annoyed the focus is on the unimportant things regarding Trump and the media ignores that of substance. I had to go digging for anything worth while regarding his speech. All the headline were consumed with him claiming he doesn't lie in his speech.

Trump being regularly racist and bigoted before he makes it anywhere near office is not unimportant. The man has basically behaved like a totalitarian bigot that can't take criticism. That's far from unimportant and it has been consistent. It hasn't been some sort of minor slip up.

KingBrian2

B_Wayne wrote: »

Trump being regularly racist and bigoted before he makes it anywhere near office is not unimportant. The man has basically behaved like a totalitarian bigot that can't take criticism. That's far from unimportant and it has been consistent. It hasn't been some sort of minor slip up.

It has been claimed though that Hillary can work with Republicans that is clearly false since on Abortion, gun control and immigration the Republicans have solids beliefs on all these areas. How is she going to convince them to bring in legislation when President Obama had years and nothing was done?

Amerika

B_Wayne wrote: »

Trump being regularly racist and bigoted before he makes it anywhere near office is not unimportant. The man has basically behaved like a totalitarian bigot that can't take criticism. That's far from unimportant and it has been consistent. It hasn't been some sort of minor slip up.

This old nonsense again? I know those terms so many here have been applied as some sort of pseudo-gospel, but where has he been bigoted and racist? I understand people can take from what he says to fit their own agenda. I'm confident I can counter most if not all you come up with to explain how they are not. Bottom line is those terms you throw around are merely your impressions and should not be stated so matter-of-factly.

InTheTrees

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It has been claimed though that Hillary can work with Republicans that is clearly false since on Abortion, gun control and immigration the Republicans have solids beliefs on all these areas. How is she going to convince them to bring in legislation when President Obama had years and nothing was done?

Because republicans have put up a candidate that is so inappropriate for the office they will probably lose their majority in congress as well as the presidency.

KingBrian2

InTheTrees wrote: »

Because republicans have put up a candidate that is so inappropriate for the office they will probably lose their majority in congress as well as the presidency.

The rise of the extremes has been as a result of the mess up made by Washington the same people who are fed up with Washington voted for Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. Hillary is part of the crew that was behind every executive decision since 2001. Can you trust the same people that brought a financial crisis, repeated terrorist attacks that informed citizens were warning for years. Trump is by no means the greatest candidate the GOP ever had but go down through the years, Taft, Hoover and lets not forget even the famed Gen Grant was not free of controversy. Trump is a change from the rest while for a time so was President Obama but as I said he was greeted with hatred by the est also. It's a pity the Democrats don't have as charismatic a personality as Trump.

The notorious Marxist, Kenyan Socialist propaganda used by the GOP now we have the Democrats portraying Donald as an evil tycoon. Both stereotypes are false and give a misleading portrayal of the character's image.

alastair

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The notorious Marxist, Kenyan Socialist propaganda used by the GOP now we have the Democrats portraying Donald as an evil tycoon. Both stereotypes are false and give a misleading portrayal of the character's image.

Obama is objectively not Marxist, Kenyan, nor any sort of socialist that would register by european standards. So the propaganda is patently devoid of any sort of factual basis.

Trump is a tycoon (albeit a mediocre enough one). He's undeniably responsible for some pretty evil rhetoric, and his business practices are unsavoury enough to drift into evil territory at times. His treatment of people and ecology in the Scottish golf course, as captured in the Trumped documentary, was abusive, and arguably evil. The snake oil Trump University operation is certainly playing fast and loose with desperate people's hopes and dreams. That's the sort of self-serving and harmful sh!te that gets called evil.

So, an evil tycoon? Maybe not, but there's more substance behind the propaganda than applied to Obama.

K-9

Couple of cards handed out and posts deleted, it will be bans for those involved next as advisory warnings are obviously getting ignored.

Christy42

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The rise of the extremes has been as a result of the mess up made by Washington the same people who are fed up with Washington voted for Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump. Hillary is part of the crew that was behind every executive decision since 2001. Can you trust the same people that brought a financial crisis, repeated terrorist attacks that informed citizens were warning for years. Trump is by no means the greatest candidate the GOP ever had but go down through the years, Taft, Hoover and lets not forget even the famed Gen Grant was not free of controversy. Trump is a change from the rest while for a time so was President Obama but as I said he was greeted with hatred by the est also. It's a pity the Democrats don't have as charismatic a personality as Trump.

The notorious Marxist, Kenyan Socialist propaganda used by the GOP now we have the Democrats portraying Donald as an evil tycoon. Both stereotypes are false and give a misleading portrayal of the character's image.

I'll believe in the rise of the extremes if people with similar views to them get elected down ballot. I don't think it will happen for Trump style politics, too much of his vote depends on his personality which I don't see people emulating for the lesser spots. I am less doubtful on the Sanders side of things but still doubtful.

PopePalpatine

The Daily Show tries out Trump's "extreme vetting" proposal...on his supporters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBbGkVIiT_M

Black Swan

Amerika wrote: »

You ignore the elephant in the room. She claimed to have worked with Democrats and Republicans to get something done. They can't find a single Republican who she 'reportedly' worked with.

This current member of the Republican party had praised Hillary Clinton many times from 1997 to 2012 when she was First Lady, US Senator, and Secretary of State:

1997 Donald Trump: "The first lady is a wonderful woman who has handled pressure incredibly well."

2007 Donald Trump: "They’re both terrific people, and I hope they both get the nomination." (Rudy Giuliani and Hillary Clinton)

2008 Donald Trump: "I support Hillary. I think she’s fantastic."

2008 Donald Trump: “Hillary was roughed up by the media, and it was a tough campaign for her, but she’s a great trouper.”

2008 Donald Trump: "I know Hillary and I think she’d make a great president or vice-president."

2012 Donald Trump: "Hillary Clinton I think is a terrific woman."

2012 Donald Trump: "I am biased because I have known her for years. I live in New York. She lives in New York. I really like her and her husband both a lot. I think she really works hard. And I think, again, she’s given an agenda, it is not all of her, but I think she really works hard and I think she does a good job. I like her."

2016 Donald Trump: "But one thing I can promise you is this: I will always tell you the truth."

Suryavarman

After his "apology" yesterday I thought we'd have to wait a week or two for Donald Trump to say something offensive. He lasted a day.

https://twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/766747911396945920

Count Dooku

Black Swan wrote: »

2008 Donald Trump: "I support Hillary. I think she’s fantastic."

Because they were not competing against each other
And this is what Obama said about Hillary in 2008

Wanderer78

I think the trump campaign is done, now it's time to move onto dissolving the Clinton campaign!

Rambling Rake

Unlikely it will happen but I think Johnson/Weld could be in with an outside shot if they managed it onto make the debates. I don't think any of the tv networks want that to happen as everybody is gunning for a Trump v Hillary showdown.

I think it's probably too little too late for Trump but had he ran a campaign with a message like he gave in NC the other night I think he would have walked this election. Unfortunately for him it looks like he's shown his true colours far too often to find a way back.

That said I can see the polls running a lot closer if he continues in the same manner. His record would make you doubt his ability to do so, particularly in the debates. I can see Hillary making him look foolish.

Re: anti Trump media bias. It certainly exists but he has dug his own grave.

Count Dooku

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I think the trump campaign is done, now it's time to move onto dissolving the Clinton campaign!

Do you think it will be difficult?

https://twitter.com/USAforTrump2016/status/766773459787677696

Suryavarman

The awkward moment when the Communist Party are more moderate than many Bernie Sanders supporters:

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/766734984174534656

B0jangles

Count Dooku wrote: »

Do you think it will be difficult?

https://twitter.com/USAforTrump2016/status/766773459787677696

Already debunked in this very thread - see post #58 onwards.

Count Dooku

This is going to be fun


and
FBI Probing Firm Belonging To Brother Of Clinton Campaign Chairman For Ties To Ukraine Corruption

peckdunn

Oh Dear...Trump said that black voters “are living in poverty” and their “schools are no good”.

http://www.thejournal.ie/trump-black-vote-2938838-Aug2016/

KingBrian2

Christy42 wrote: »

I'll believe in the rise of the extremes if people with similar views to them get elected down ballot. I don't think it will happen for Trump style politics, too much of his vote depends on his personality which I don't see people emulating for the lesser spots. I am less doubtful on the Sanders side of things but still doubtful.

Black Lives Matter, Jihadists and the KKK are extremists.

Suryavarman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Black Lives Matter, Jihadists and the KKK are extremists.

Thinking police shouldn't be allowed to shoot black people indiscriminately without repercussion is a real fringe idea alright.

KingBrian2

Suryavarman wrote: »

Thinking police shouldn't be allowed to shoot black people indiscriminately without repercussion is a real fringe idea alright.

Not the way they do it which is violence on the streets. Also you seem to have a very low opinion on the American voter. The American police forces are mixed.

Pro Hoc Vice

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Not the way they do it which is violence on the streets. Also you seem to have a very low opinion on the American voter. The American police forces are mixed.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

Young black men were nine times more likely than other Americans to be killed by police officers in 2015

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html

Total law engorcement deaths from 1791 to 2015 inclusive 20079.

As you will see officer deaths are lower now than in the late 70's yet the average American voter (in reality trump supporter) believes otherwise.

PopePalpatine

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

As you will see officer deaths are lower now than in the late 70's yet the average American voter (in reality trump supporter) believes otherwise.

Remember what Newt said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4f5ewIYYuQ

Pro Hoc Vice

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Not the way they do it which is violence on the streets. Also you seem to have a very low opinion on the American voter. The American police forces are mixed.

http://youtu.be/dBbGkVIiT_M

Tell me those voters are not as thick as ****.

Pro Hoc Vice

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Remember what Newt said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4f5ewIYYuQ

Today, the national crime rate is about half of what it was at its height in 1991. Violent crime has fallen by 51 percent since 1991, and property crime by 43 percent. In 2013 the violent crime rate was the lowest since 1970. And this holds true for unreported crimes as well. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1993 the rate of violent crime has declined from 79.8 to 23.2 victimizations per 1,000 people.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/427758/careful-panic-violent-crime-and-gun-crime-are-both-dropping-charles-c-w-cooke

And yet Newt said he will go with feelings any time. Now that's a scary crime.he does not like theoretician, who does he sound like when they not winning the debate because facts don't support them, they just say no to experts.

KingBrian2

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Today, the national crime rate is about half of what it was at its height in 1991. Violent crime has fallen by 51 percent since 1991, and property crime by 43 percent. In 2013 the violent crime rate was the lowest since 1970. And this holds true for unreported crimes as well. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, since 1993 the rate of violent crime has declined from 79.8 to 23.2 victimizations per 1,000 people.

Read more at: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/427758/careful-panic-violent-crime-and-gun-crime-are-both-dropping-charles-c-w-cooke

And yet Newt said he will go with feelings any time. Now that's a scary crime.he does not like theoretician, who does he sound like when they not winning the debate because facts don't support them, they just say no to experts.

Yes but the perception of crime that matters to many Americans just like here in Ireland the crime rate might be going up but misdemeanor crimes and white collar crimes remain the same and in your statistics do you include the financial crisis which saw the massive unemployment and savings wiped out. Much larger than any other time in American history.

Pro Hoc Vice

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Yes but the perception of crime that matters to many Americans just like here in Ireland the crime rate might be going up but misdemeanor crimes and white collar crimes remain the same and in your statistics do you include the financial crisis which saw the massive unemployment and savings wiped out. Much larger than any other time in American history.

What are you saying?

The issue of perception is exactly my point and bad politicians play on fear not reality.

I have no idea what you are saying about Ireland. What do you mean about the melt down.

Unemployment levels in US less than 5% and the stock market has bounced back to pre 2008 levels. But again what are you saying, imagine I'm thick (it's easy if you try) and clearly set out what you want to say and hopefully back it up with some good sources.

PopePalpatine

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Yes but the perception of crime that matters to many Americans just like here in Ireland the crime rate might be going up but misdemeanor crimes and white collar crimes remain the same and in your statistics do you include the financial crisis which saw the massive unemployment and savings wiped out. Much larger than any other time in American history.

And for a Young Earth Creationist, their perception of the beginning of our universe makes them think it's less than 10,000 years old, and they're still wrong.

As for white collar crime...good luck getting Mr. I'll-Be-Going-On-Trial-Because-Of-Trump-University to solve that. He's probably heard the rumours of Putin being worth billions and wanting some of that sweet, sweet kleptocracy.

KingBrian2

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

What are you saying?

The issue of perception is exactly my point and bad politicians play on fear not reality.

I have no idea what you are saying about Ireland. What do you mean about the melt down.

Unemployment levels in US less than 5% and the stock market has bounced back to pre 2008 levels. But again what are you saying, imagine I'm thick (it's easy if you try) and clearly set out what you want to say and hopefully back it up with some good sources.

The SEC allowed fraudulent scams to continue and did not or could not stop them. Their were good firms on Wall Street but the practices were allowed to continue due to the SEC being inept.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/02/harry-markopolos-ponzi-schemes/
The crimes on Wall Street are in another league compared to Trump.

B_Wayne

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The SEC allowed fraudulent scams to continue and did not or could not stop them. Their were good firms on Wall Street but the practices were allowed to continue due to the SEC being inept.

http://www.valuewalk.com/2016/02/harry-markopolos-ponzi-schemes/
The crimes on Wall Street are in another league compared to Trump.

And you think hiring a lower level fraudster will help? I'm not sure how you think Trump who is very much a part of the problem is gonna fix it while he has his own upcoming Trump University case coming up...

KingBrian2

B_Wayne wrote: »

And you think hiring a lower level fraudster will help? I'm not sure how you think Trump who is very much a part of the problem is gonna fix it while he has his own upcoming Trump University case coming up...

As I have said numerous other times he is a change from all the rest of them.

Pro Hoc Vice

KingBrian2 wrote: »

As I have said numerous other times he is a change from all the rest of them.

How is he a change? Give examples how a man who has been show to be a liar, who is beholding to ME and China money houses, who has cheated on at least two of his wives, who is according to recent article 2 billion in debt, who has never held political office (suppose that is different) who has changed his mind on every serious issue, who inherited a multi million fortune, who teaches a message of fear. Just one way he a elite is different to all the other elites!

Pro Hoc Vice

KingBrian2 wrote: »

As I have said numerous other times he is a change from all the rest of them.

How just 5 example how he is not just a change but a positive change.

Calina

KingBrian2 wrote: »

As I have said numerous other times he is a change from all the rest of them.

Firstly, in certain respects, he isn't, and secondly, being a change does not automatically imply a "change for the better".