What would Ireland be like with just Irish People in it?

I remember the first black resident of my nearest town.

There had literally never been a black resident before, and he was uniquely called 'The black lad'.

That was approx. 1994, and I don't think I've seen a black person in the town since. Maybe an African-born G.P. doing locum work, but I cannot be sure.

But to answer what life is like in a place where everyone looks & speaks the same (bar a handful of Lithuanians, Poles and Brits, and seasonal Germans), it doesn't really make a difference. I can't remember ever hearing a racist word there, and people have the exact same type of opinions, concerns, quirks and personalities as in Dublin or parts of the U.K.

Bottom line being, it doesn't really make much difference. People are people, and nobody is bound by their race to become a certain type of human. Race is itself a very subjective, man-made concept (why classify people based on their foreheads and and the shape of their nasal bone; and not according to foot-size and eye colour, for example?)

catbear

Well our national anthem is pretty inclusive

Soldiers are we,
whose lives are pledged to Ireland,
Some have come
from a land beyond the wave,
Sworn to be free,
no more our ancient sireland,
Shall shelter the despot or the slave.

Mind you the last verse had something about defeating the saxon foe.

SeantoBarry

JupiterKid wrote: »

It would be a lot more boring. Immigration has enriched Ireland and added a touch of spice to the dish.

Would care to expand on how it's enriched Ireland?

Richard Hillman

A 3 in 1 would consist of chips, gravy and chicken

Chromosphere

Incredibly boring! Especially food-wise.

A lot of our foodie revolution was started by exposure to particularly French artisan foodies who made their home in places like Cork and Dublin in the 1990s as well as a load of others who have followed. Tons of the modern Irish cheeses and so on all came about out of a bit of cultural exposure to continental stuff.

Also before that Italian food, Chinese food, Indian food etc etc?

I know I came back from Poland recently and the one thing that struck me as 'reassuring' was landing back in France and then Ireland and seeing people who didn't all look exactly the same. I don't know why but, I get freaked out when everyone looks a bit too closely related...

Andy From Sligo

cbyrd wrote: »

We'd all be speaking Irish !

and that would be a problem?

Chromosphere

Sure if you go back a few generations most of us aren't "Irish" anyway. Many of us are a bit viking, a bit French, a bit English, a bit Roman, a bit Scottish and all sorts of other things.

It's a bit narrow minded really to just assume nobody ever moved anywhere in the past.

So which Irish would you be talking about?

When is a line drawn on the dawn of "Irishness".

Andy From Sligo

Chromosphere wrote: »

Incredibly boring! Especially food-wise.

A lot of our foodie revolution was started by exposure to particularly French artisan foodies who made their home in places like Cork and Dublin in the 1990s as well as a load of others who have followed. Tons of the modern Irish cheeses and so on all came about out of a bit of cultural exposure to continental stuff.

Also before that Italian food, Chinese food, Indian food etc etc?

I know I came back from Poland recently and the one thing that struck me as 'reassuring' was landing back in France and then Ireland and seeing people who didn't all look exactly the same. I don't know why but, I get freaked out when everyone looks a bit too closely related...

presumably we would still be at the same level as we are on the internet and the budding irish wanna be chef's would be googling and making these foreign dishes, just as good or better than them - there is not a monopoly on the italians on making the best pizza or spagbol

Chromosphere

Richard Hillman wrote: »

A 3 in 1 would consist of chips, gravy and chicken

The Belgians invented chips, so that's off the table for a start and spuds are Latin American, well Native American. The Spanish brought them back.

Chromosphere

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

presumably we would still be at the same level as we are on the internet and the budding irish wanna be chef's would be googling and making these foreign dishes, just as good or better than them - there is not a monopoly on the italians on making the best pizza or spagbol

That's not the case in countries that are very monocultural. I've spent time in several and there's usually a very conservative and nearly xenophobic approach to cuisine that doesn't really exist in Ireland or Britain anymore. A lot of that is to do with direct exposure to other cultures.

Also the Irish interpretation of spaghetti bolognese in the 1980s seemed to involve all sorts of root vegetables....

I don't really see anything wrong with plucking bits you like from other cultures (ignoring the bits you don't like) and adding them to your 'cultural database'. We've always done that and always will.

Andy From Sligo

wife was just saying to me not so long ago that if someone came to town and wanted to sample proper irish meal like bacon and cabbage or irish stew there are not many places if anywhere you can get now. Say if the yanks wanted to try some or come to think of it any visitors. - in our town we have an 'italian Quarter' and polish food shops... but no irish Quarter or food area.

catbear

Chromosphere wrote: »

Sure if you go back a few generations most of us aren't "Irish" anyway. Many of us are a bit viking, a bit French, a bit English, a bit Roman, a bit Scottish and all sorts of other things.

Just found out last week that my grandmothers people came from Spain in the late 1800s as horse breeders. It may explain why I tan easily.

Galwayguy35

A Little Pony wrote: »

Ireland for the Irish. Racism has been around for a long time in Ireland.

You're right, it started around 1609 when the new arrivals kicked their neighbours out because they didn't like them.

Andy From Sligo

Chromosphere wrote: »

Sure if you go back a few generations most of us aren't "Irish" anyway. Many of us are a bit viking, a bit French, a bit English, a bit Roman, a bit Scottish and all sorts of other things.

It's a bit narrow minded really to just assume nobody ever moved anywhere in the past.

So which Irish would you be talking about?

When is a line drawn on the dawn of "Irishness".

im sure nearly everyone or most in Ireland know or have an idea what 'irish culture' is like and what it consists of (for how many years longer I dont know for because as someone said before its all dying out as time goes on) and im sure a lot of visitors/tourists now get a bit of a shock when they find out that Ireland is not as Irish as they though it would be and has now morphed into modern day europe like other countries in Europe.

What we should have done is held onto our Irish Punts , not allowed Costa in, not allowed the golden arches in (supermacs would have sufficed) and things like that , sure i would miss some of the shops and places but by allowing too much influence from UK/europ its took away the 'irish'ness' of ireland now in some ways and ireland is loosing its identity in the world I think.

Andy From Sligo

catbear wrote: »

Just found out last week that my grandmothers people came from Spain in the late 1800s as horse breeders. It may explain why I tan easily.

me wife's father looked and tanned like a spaniard, he was born in Galway ... then you got the Spanish Arch in Galway and i dont know the full history of that , but i'd say a bit of fornicating went on there with the irish and the spanish

It would be nice to imagine andy from sligo threads with just him in them

Cmon folks lets make it happen

JupiterKid

SeantoBarry wrote: »

JupiterKid wrote: »

It would be a lot more boring. Immigration has enriched Ireland and added a touch of spice to the dish.

Would care to expand on how it's enriched Ireland?

Sure, the range of ethnic foods and cuisines now available in Ireland thanks to immigration is great - much better than before when the most exotic food was Chinese or Indian.

Also, the cultural events in Ireland today are much greater in numbers and more diverse than, say, 20 years ago.

Andy From Sligo

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be nice to imagine andy from sligo threads with just him in them

Cmon folks lets make it happen

dont be a bloody kiljoy! :mad: sure who am I harming?

If that were the case then i'd stop making threads..... could be a good thing for some?

Armchair Andy

Deleted User wrote:

Why judge in black or white? Looking to absolutes>? Can't you simply read something and assume there's no insult? Lord.

You're the one with absolutes in your post I quoted. Since then you've either readjusted your stance or clarified what you originally meant.

No insult taken at all, Your long winded spiel of all your exploits abroad came across as condescending though.

SeantoBarry

Chromosphere wrote: »

Sure if you go back a few generations most of us aren't "Irish" anyway. Many of us are a bit viking, a bit French, a bit English, a bit Roman, a bit Scottish and all sorts of other things.

Only a self hating western European would claim that their own people and ethnic group don't really exist. Can you imagine a chap from Thailand, Korea, Nigeria or China saying something like above? Nah, me neither.

It's a bit pathetic.

Ericdravancrow

Father Ted would be a reality show.

Andy From Sligo

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sure, the range of ethnic foods and cuisines now available in Ireland thanks to immigration is great - much better than before when the most exotic food was Chinese or Indian....

nobody has hinted at all about banning exotic foreign food being banned from ireland - and there would be nowt wrong with Irish chefs cooking the dishes to international standards either ...

JupiterKid

Not letting the Golden Arches in? McDonalds have been in Ireland since 1977, almost 40 years and long before large-scale immigration began.

In today's globalised world, no country can live in utter isolation. Well perhaps North Korea, and isn't that such a wonderful utopia?

OP - no offence but you're a "Little Irelander."

SeantoBarry

JupiterKid wrote: »

Sure, the range of ethnic foods and cuisines now available in Ireland thanks to immigration is great - much better than before when the most exotic food was Chinese or Indian.

Okay, the food. I have the BBC Good Food recipes app. I can cook nearly any dish from around the world using it. It's great.

Chromosphere

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

im sure nearly everyone or most in Ireland know or have an idea what 'irish culture' is like and what it consists of (for how many years longer I dont know for because as someone said before its all dying out as time goes on) and im sure a lot of visitors/tourists now get a bit of a shock when they find out that Ireland is not as Irish as they though it would be and has now morphed into modern day europe like other countries in Europe.

What we should have done is held onto our Irish Punts , not allowed Costa in, not allowed the golden arches in (supermacs would have sufficed) and things like that , sure i would miss some of the shops and places but by allowing too much influence from UK/europ its took away the 'irish'ness' of ireland now in some ways and ireland is loosing its identity in the world I think.

Almost all of the things mentioned here are actually nostalgia for a bygone era rather than a culture. A huge amount of the things we take as "Irish" aren't actually more of a fondness for a time when it was poorer and had less interest in / ability to buy foreign goods.

Where do you want to draw the line on Irishness? A section of goods and services as were in 1958 perhaps?

Take any of these things:

Cup of tea - An indian / Chinese / African product imported via the British Empire.
Irish Stew - resembles many other British and French stews. It's extremely similar to versions of Pot au feu, a classic French farmer's stew.
Fish and Chips - A classic British dish.
Guinness - an Irish porter brewed by a British multinational. A porter (a type of drink that would would trace its origin to London rather than Dublin).

You mention Irish Punts - These existed as a nominal currency that was linked to Sterling until 1979 and then became part of the European Monetary System, finally gaining some degree of independence from the British and then became part of the Euro.

Irish culture is a mix of all sorts of influences sewn together into a tapestry and it absolutely is and always was an integral part of a broader European culture - i.e. things like language (both Irish and English), structures of Government (various interpretations of ideas that mostly come from ancient Greece and Roman Republican ideas that carry through all European societies and the US).

And the dominant religion which many people claim is Irish, is actually one of the longest established multinational organisations - The Roman Catholic Church which is about as Irish as McDonalds and Starbucks.

All of these things can be woven into cultures, but to assume that there was some mystical period where Ireland (or any other culture) was completely free from any 'foreign' influence is basically utter nonsense.

The ability to absorb and adapt is part of all cultures, but it's a huge part of ours as a country that has largely existed as a trading post on the western fringes of Europe for centuries (and for a considerable period as an often unwilling part of the British empire).

Also, the idea that US tourists would be 'surprised' by our lack of "Irishness" is about as relevant as me being shocked that California is no longer the Wild West. We don't live in a theme park.

Andy From Sligo

Ericdravancrow wrote: »

Father Ted would be a reality show.

But religion would still be dying out the same rate as it already is in Ireland - its called modernisation, its not called "Religion/Catholics are dying out because foreigners have moved and settled in Ireland" - it could be called, "when these auld wans die, religion will die bit by bit because the younger generation dont go to church these days"

Andy From Sligo

Chromosphere wrote: »

Almost all of the things mentioned here are actually nostalgia for a bygone era rather than a culture. A huge amount of the things we take as "Irish" aren't actually more of a fondness for a time when it was poorer and had less interest in / ability to buy foreign goods.

Where do you want to draw the line on Irishness? A section of goods and services as were in 1958 perhaps?

Take any of these things:

Cup of tea - An indian / Chinese / African product imported via the British Empire.
Irish Stew - resembles many other British and French stews. It's extremely similar to versions of Pot au feu, a classic French farmer's stew.
Fish and Chips - A classic British dish.
Guinness - an Irish porter brewed by a British multinational. A porter (a type of drink that would would trace its origin to London rather than Dublin).

You mention Irish Punts - These existed as a nominal currency that was linked to Sterling until 1979 and then became part of the European Monetary System, finally gaining some degree of independence from the British and then became part of the Euro.

Irish culture is a mix of all sorts of influences sewn together into a tapestry and it absolutely is and always was an integral part of a broader European culture - i.e. things like language (both Irish and English), structures of Government (various interpretations of ideas that mostly come from ancient Greece and Roman Republican ideas that carry through all European societies and the US).

And the dominant religion which many people claim is Irish, is actually one of the longest established multinational organisations - The Roman Catholic Church which is about as Irish as McDonalds and Starbucks.

All of these things can be woven into cultures, but to assume that there was some mystical period where Ireland (or any other culture) was completely free from any 'foreign' influence is basically utter nonsense.

The ability to absorb and adapt is part of all cultures, but it's a huge part of ours as a country that has largely existed as a trading post on the western fringes of Europe for centuries (and for a considerable period as an often unwilling part of the British empire).

Also, the idea that US tourists would be 'surprised' by our lack of "Irishness" is about as relevant as me being shocked that California is no longer the Wild West. We don't live in a theme park.

Good answer - and i bow to your experience and intelligence sire

Andy From Sligo

JupiterKid wrote: »

Not letting the Golden Arches in? McDonalds have been in Ireland since 1977, almost 40 years and long before large-scale immigration began....

do you know what I would do if they changed all the Mcd's over to Supermac's tomorrow? ... I would go eat in there, happier in the fact that that the money i spent in there is going to an Irish establishment and Irish economy

Andy From Sligo

Ericdravancrow wrote: »

Father Ted would be a reality show.

the Brits would love it - Channel 4 would have to broadcast it though because RTE would turn it down

Chromosphere

To me, the defining aspect of Irish culture is that we were the underdogs who became the rebels and who took on the world's largest empire and mostly won. It left us with a sense of being 'the rebels' and the '****e stirrers'. It also left us with a very strong sense of social justice.

Culturally, we are not really bound up in taking ourselves all that seriously and are extremely irreverent (in a good way).

I think that's why you see Irish people jumping onto all sorts of causes around the world. Many of us see the parallels with our own history.

We have had to go through a century of trying to find our identity and disentangle it from the the British Empire, from offensive stereotypes and more recently from the Roman Catholic Church.

There's an aspect of Irishness that I think is a hell of a lot more than being born on this island or having particular genes, or eating a particular type of food, or going to a particular church. It's something you can most definitely 'buy into' because of how modern Ireland came about.

I just think that's the aspect of Irish culture that matters most and it's a major part of what appeals to a lot of people about Irishness. It's also something that, people can adopt and buy into in a way you can't really about cultures that attempt to define themselves by blood lines or religion.

Andy From Sligo

I know, why cant a section of ireland be sectioned off, have its own Irish Currency, people speaking Gaelic, only Guinness and irish beer served, No Mcdonalds just supermacs, Dunnes Stores only , horse and carriages as transport, the old Telecom Eireann phone boxes, potholes in the road, MPH speed signs, Black and white road distance signs, cafes that just serve tea and cabbage and bacon and Irish stew - it could be like this center parc thing they are starting up ... but irish - any entrapenuers (i cant spell it) out there wanna give it a go with me?, you would have to put up the money though cause i am only rich in the ideas

Chromosphere

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I know, why cant a section of ireland be sectioned off, have its own Irish Currency, people speaking Gaelic, only Guinness and irish beer served, No Mcdonalds just supermacs, Dunnes Stores only , horse and carriages as transport, the old Telecom Eireann phone boxes, potholes in the road, MPH speed signs, Black and white road distance signs, cafes that just serve tea and cabbage and bacon and Irish stew - it could be like this center parc thing they are starting up ... but irish - any entrapenuers (i cant spell it) out there wanna give it a go with me?, you would have to put up the money though cause i am only rich in the ideas

You could base it around The Quiet Man and Peig. (Maybe with a touch of Enya and Riverdance)
Maybe Disney might be interested in rolling it out worldwide?

You could have "Ireland Land™" in Shanghai, Tokyo, LA, Orlando and so on.

Ericdravancrow

Glenroe would still be on RTE1, top ratings every week.

ProudDUB

Chromosphere wrote: »

Also, the idea that US tourists would be 'surprised' by our lack of "Irishness" is about as relevant as me being shocked that California is no longer the Wild West. We don't live in a theme park.

Used to live in the US. The level of ignorance (about everything non American, not just Ireland) there is pretty staggering, even among fairly well educated people. We are so up our own holes sometimes, that we think that just because the Yanks dye their rivers green on Paddys Day, they are as educated and informed about our country and culture, as we are about theirs.

Chromosphere

ProudDUB wrote: »

Used to live in the US. The level of ignorance (about everything non American, not just Ireland) there is pretty staggering, even among fairly well educated people. We are so up our own holes sometimes, that we think that just because the Yanks dye their rivers green on Paddys Day, they are as educated and informed about our country and culture, as we are about theirs.

Yeah, I had a guy ask me if we had television in Europe!!!!!?!?

ProudDUB

I was asked if we celebrated Christmas and Halloween.

Chromosphere

ProudDUB wrote: »

I was asked if we celebrated Christmas and Halloween.

I can beat that. I was asked if I drove from Ireland to the Atlanta ...

KingBrian2

Chromosphere wrote: »

Yeah, I had a guy ask me if we had television in Europe!!!!!?!?

America is a mammoth of a continent and the US is one huge country with 50 states. Not surprised they lack a lot of even the most significant locations outside the US. It becomes difficult when Americans have the nerve to impose geography lessons on the rest of the world like say the South China Sea or Ukraine as if your typical American is going to know that the majority of Crimean's speak Russian.

Chromosphere

I think every country has an element of this. Bigger ones tend be a lot more isolated and inward looking just due to their scale.

I think though Irish and other European commentators can sometimes be a bit too harsh on Americans. I don't know how many times I've encountered Irish and British people thinking Africa is a country or confusing Canada and the US or Australia and NZ.

We have a tendency to think we know a lot about geography because we know the capitals of other EU countries, but that's sort of equivalent to knowing the state capitals in the US if you're American.

I just know a few Irish people who get offended at English lack of knowledge of Irish counties, yet they couldn't name more than maybe two English counties themselves.

The reality in the states tends to be the further you get away from the prosperous, multicultural, highly educated coastal cities, the less knowledge and likelihood of having been exposed to international travel or people from other places.

Also, outside of the Irish-American community, most Americans pay about as much attention to Ireland as they do to Norway or Belgium i.e. they've some vague notion of where it is and know someone who's grandmother may have come from there.

Also sometimes Irish-Americans can have a view of Ireland that's frozen in time or really stereotypical.

cbyrd

Andy From Sligo wrote:

and that would be a problem?

Not for me... I speak pigin Irish... 2 of my 5 are fluent, with the next 2 starting.. youngest can't speak yet ..
The irish language is class..

Andy From Sligo

Chromosphere wrote: »

You could base it around The Quiet Man and Peig. (Maybe with a touch of Enya and Riverdance)
Maybe Disney might be interested in rolling it out worldwide?

You could have "Ireland Land™" in Shanghai, Tokyo, LA, Orlando and so on.

or Dubai
But they already have one sort of:
https://www.facebook.com/TheIrishVillageDubai/

LordSutch

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

What would Ireland be like with just Irish People in it?

Probably something like it was in about 1985

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Better.

Andy From Sligo

LordSutch wrote: »

Probably something like it was in about 1985

oh well someone said 1991 earlier ...

youreadthat

Well, if the saying "Irish are the blacks of Europe" is accurate, then I guess it would be Uganda.

Armchair Andy

Armchair Andy wrote: »

You're the one with absolutes in your post I quoted. Since then you've either readjusted your stance or clarified what you originally meant.

You were just being too sensitive. I never intended any insult to irish people, or ireland by what I wrote. I'm quite proud of Ireland. It's done wonderful things in its time.

No insult taken at all, Your long winded spiel of all your exploits abroad came across as condescending though.

Not once did I suggest that my experience made me better in any way than anyone else. I honestly don't think it does.

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

do you know what I would do if they changed all the Mcd's over to Supermac's tomorrow? ... I would go eat in there, happier in the fact that that the money i spent in there is going to an Irish establishment and Irish economy

Supermacs is better tasting food anyway. Mcd's just makes me go straight to the toilet afterwards. Snack box with curry sauce? heaven.

Billy86

Supermacs is muck that can taste OK drunk, not really any better than McDonalds or Burger King. Standard chipper/Indian/Chinese/burrito/pizza/kebab*/etc place tends to be miles better than any of them.

*Not Abrekebabreh!

Andy From Sligo

if i do go ahead with the irish theme park i would have to invest in some kind of rain machine just in case the sun shines, because it always rains in Ireland....

Wigglepuppy

LordSutch wrote: »

Probably something like it was in about 1985

Why?

Are you saying none of the changes in the last 31 years are down to Irish people and only down to new arrivals?