Computers

wolfyboy555

I am going to have a 1st year computer class for the first time this year. Just anyone have any tips / useful websites that could be used?

Would people suggest working on the office suite or would students already be familiar with these?

I know coding has become a buzz word recently in the news. I wonder should this be focused on instead?

jogdish

Office and other applications that are common in the real word are fairly easy to pick once you are in any proficient with a computer - yes of course there are advanced tips and tricks but mainly that stuff can/will be self learned.

You have a computer class, so teach them about computers. What are the components, what does each one do - hierarchy of memory, lead into what an OS is, perhaps install a Linux, get them to install python and run some simple programs, then debug one and see where the computer is writing information to at each point and see how bottle necks and efficient codes happens.

It's not fun/pretty but it is computing, try not to fall into a rabbit hole of just showing "hey this is cool", flashy flavor of the day stuff.

that's just me

seavill

From teaching woodwork DCG and construction studies which project components that require computer work I would be delighted if our 1st years were taught the basics of email, maybe Google classroom, word, excel And publisher.

People think/presume kids know how to use these things because they are big into computers. They have no idea. They know how to play games on their phones look up YouTube that's about it.

It is a nightmare each year having to waste time in 6th year showing students how to attach something to an email or edit things in word. Even printing is a whole new world to some. It's a nightmare

jogdish

seavill wrote: »

From teaching woodwork DCG and construction studies which project components that require computer work I would be delighted if our 1st years were taught the basics of email, maybe Google classroom, word, excel And publisher.

People think/presume kids know how to use these things because they are big into computers. They have no idea. They know how to play games on their phones look up YouTube that's about it.

It is a nightmare each year having to waste time in 6th year showing students how to attach something to an email or edit things in word. Even printing is a whole new world to some. It's a nightmare

+1 to the above, I still stand by what I said, but yes the basics of actually using a computer would be nice too. Tapping an icon != knowing computers. It is truly scary how many "older" people just assume all the kids are 100% with any computer. I don't mean to harp back to my own comment but installing and setting up Windows 7/10/Ubuntu teaches you alot!

LeinsterDub

Teach them something useful. Like programming they already know how to use computers

r93kaey5p2izun

In my experience very very few students can use Office or equivalent or even email. They are a wizz at social networking but cannot type up a basic document, prepare a presentation or send an email. I think that this is usually the main aim of these classes and this will be even more essential with the new assessments in the JC.

TOEJOE

Are you taking a computer class or giving one? What level are you at?.

bpmurray

Teach the basics - don't assume they know anything. Some will definitely eb expert, but most will only know certain aspects. They will all probably know YouTube, but other than that, they won't know how to create document, how to use a spreadsheet, how to make a presentation, etc. The vast majority won't know programming either - try https://scratch.mit.edu/ or http://appinventor.mit.edu/explore/

icebergiceberg

Students are brilliant at using mobiles and can tell you anything about apps and stuff. They are great at playing games on a computer and so on. Yet when it comes down to it they have very few meaningful computer skills. I find that they can not format a simple letter, type it out, save it and so on. I don't know if they have email addresses and correspond appropriately. How the fukc they can be surrounded by so much technology and yet have so few real skills is the eight wonder of the world.

5uspect

Probably because a lot of those skills are becoming obsolete. I rarely print or use MS Office (and only then when I deal with the technology illerate who think MS Word is an operating system) and I'm working in the technology research sector.

So teach them in broad strokes. What is a text editor? What is it used for? How is it different to a word processor? What is an operating system? What are Applications? How does a Windoes or UNIX file system work? What is a command line and what does computer code do? How do websites work?

Kids love games, so ask how are games made? What makes up a 3D model? How would you 3D print such a model? Show them blender 3D or game maker.

How is a computer like a smartphone? What is a processor, RAM and disk. Why does the PC need a fan? What does a GPU do? What is a Raspberry Pi?

We take on many interns and most have fairly poor IT skills. They mostly have useless proprietary software like MS Offce and some clunky CAD drilled into them and feck all else. So they spend their first few weeks playing with Raspberry Pis and Python and Arduinos and C. Then they can do something useful. Then they go can write up their reports in LaTeX.

spurious

Teach them proper formatting terms too - font, orientation, bold, italic, justify, centre, bullet points etc.. 'Make it big and slanty' doesn't always cut it.
Knowing how to use superscript and subscript is handy too.

The LCA (very basic) Introduction to Word Processing module has some very useful stuff.

seavill

5uspect wrote: »

Probably because a lot of those skills are becoming obsolete. I rarely print or use MS Office (and only then when I deal with the technology illerate who think MS Word is an operating system) and I'm working in the technology research sector.

So teach them in broad strokes. What is a text editor? What is it used for? How is it different to a word processor? What is an operating system? What are Applications? How does a Windoes or UNIX file system work? What is a command line and what does computer code do? How do websites work?

Kids love games, so ask how are games made? What makes up a 3D model? How would you 3D print such a model? Show them blender 3D or game maker.

How is a computer like a smartphone? What is a processor, RAM and disk. Why does the PC need a fan? What does a GPU do? What is a Raspberry Pi?

We take on many interns and most have fairly poor IT skills. They mostly have useless proprietary software like MS Offce and some clunky CAD drilled into them and feck all else. So they spend their first few weeks playing with Raspberry Pis and Python and Arduinos and C. Then they can do something useful. Then they go can write up their reports in LaTeX.

All that is great and very useful skills for those going that direction, no problem with that.

However these kids need to know how to type in word and print to be able to complete junior and leaving cert projects and projects in college for the vast majority that don't go into an IT course.
These skills are essential. Whether them being essential is obsolete in the real world is a, different conversation but for them to be able to complete important LC and JC projects and university assignments these skills are essential.

In reality these skills won't take a massive chunk of the year to learn so there is plenty of time to show then other skills after. We have a 3D printer and use 3D cad for design etc. But please teach them the basics first.

mirrorwall14

If you have maths or even if not do up a decent lesson on password security and password cracking. I realised my first years were using ridiculously short guessable passwords two years ago. Asked for hands up on who used the same password for every website and about 90% of the hands went up.

Then got talking about online safety. Got them to google themselves. About 40% of them had a photo visible in google they didn't intend to be.

They have very little concept of safety online and how to manage the settings on websites for privacy

Most of them do not use gmail/email or have any idea of how to use online applications such as Dropbox/google drive/sheets etc. I have found working in the google online documents/presentations/sheets/drive set up excellent for getting them used to setting up online documents properly, downloading as PDFs and in particular collaborating on documents and sharing files with others. These skills are really useful

A large majority are not in anyway comfortable with the standard desktop layout and 'lose' files and folders. They just don't get it. I even had a few closing files and not saving because they can do that on mobile devices. This is definitely worth spending some time on

LeinsterDub

It's hilarious those who are so far behind the times suggesting word and excel. Both of these are the matter of a simple Google. No one cares to be thought this over actually useful information. One can learn the basics of word or excel in minutes

seavill

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's hilarious those who are so far behind the times suggesting word and excel. Both of these are the matter of a simple Google. No one cares to be thought this over actually useful information. One can learn the basics of word or excel in minutes

Yes but our point is the kids don't learn the basics on their own. 18 year olds who can't type up their leaving cert project. Save it and have no idea where to find it. Worth 40% of their LC grade.

It's not behind the times it's giving them the skills they currently need before moving onto other things. I already said doing this will take very little time and then plenty time to move onto all the other stuff listed above.

spurious

Basic things - how to save a file, so that we don't end up with 500 versions of 'Document1' on each PC, likewise 'Image1'.

Unbelievable the state they leave computers in.

They'll all know how to put an obscene photo on the desktop, but ask them to justify the text in a document and they look at you like you've three heads. Heads (3).

evolving_doors

LeinsterDub wrote: »

It's hilarious those who are so far behind the times suggesting word and excel. Both of these are the matter of a simple Google. No one cares to be thought this over actually useful information. One can learn the basics of word or excel in minutes

It looks impressive though when you meet someone who is a dab hand at excel. Someone showing you how to reorder data and manipulate it is way better than having to Google it and getting distracted by the net. There would be quite a few manufacturing companies who still use excel for process analysis so I wouldn't throw it out just yet.
Excel can be used for the stats part of the maths course too once first principals are understood.

5uspect

But why teach them to use a single product like MS Office?
People are complaining that they can't manage their files - teach them a file system!
How can today's students know what a save icon means when it uses a floppy disk icon; something they've never used. So teach them how generic UIs work.

You are complaining that they can't format text - teach them some generic word processing tools, even the advanced mode on boards can do the basics.

People have to stop thinking that MS Office somehow constitutes computing!

seavill

It constitutes part of computing that is essential for them to be able to complete their leaving cert And junior cert properly. It would take 4 weeks to show them how to use word excel filing email google apps etc. To a level they need. They then have 29 weeks left for all other fun stuff.

We are not saying they shouldn't learn other things we are simply saying the majority that come into me have no idea how to do the basics they require. 100% of them will use these skills for the rest of their lives. What maybe 10% will go onto needing to know the other things listed above.
People always complain teachers don't give kids real life skills. These can be a small quick part of thatbefore moving on

5uspect

I'm arguing that the basics are understanding a file system and generic cross platform UI conventions. These essential skills prepare you for almost any computing task.

To assume the MS Office will be an essential skill in a world of collapsing PC sales is extremely shortsighted.

LaTeX is perhaps one of the oldest and most stable document preparation tools on the planet. It's completely free and extremely powerful. It's not easy at first but it teaches you so much about using a computer and preparing beautiful documents. Simply teaching something like that would be much much better than teaching an awful mess like MS Office.

Starkystark

Celine Petite Roast wrote: »

In my experience very very few students can use Office or equivalent or even email. They are a wizz at social networking but cannot type up a basic document, prepare a presentation or send an email. I think that this is usually the main aim of these classes and this will be even more essential with the new assessments in the JC.

I second this! I couldn't believe how bad they were. Simple office things.

LeinsterDub

seavill wrote: »

These can be a small quick part of thatbefore moving on

Agreed a few weeks of these skills is no harm. I had an entire Junior cert cycle of these.

jogdish

seavill wrote: »

It constitutes part of computing that is essential for them to be able to complete their leaving cert And junior cert properly. It would take 4 weeks to show them how to use word excel filing email google apps etc. To a level they need. They then have 29 weeks left for all other fun stuff.

We are not saying they shouldn't learn other things we are simply saying the majority that come into me have no idea how to do the basics they require. 100% of them will use these skills for the rest of their lives. What maybe 10% will go onto needing to know the other things listed above.
People always complain teachers don't give kids real life skills. These can be a small quick part of thatbefore moving on

It's called education, FAR more efficient to teach them about how a computer works ( UI's, LaTeX,etc..) then trust me the rest comes ALOT easier - with the added benefit of understanding.
To use a simple example, I rather my parents understood how the remote control buttons function rather than just learning what to press to get whatever.

mirrorwall14

I honestly can't get over this thread and have to imagine that the people advocating for the higher stuff have not worked with your average to weak 12/13 year old student. I am not talking about the student who likes messing with Linux, attends coder dojo and is fixing his relations PCs. My experience is you may be lucky enough to have one of those out of the thirty in front of you. Whether you like it or not the rest of the students need to be able to work in office/google docs or something similar. It would take 10 times as long to try and teach them latex instead and in reality they will never use it. Students not going into the tech industry will use office or a similar online equivalent for important tasks such as creation of CVs, letters, collaborative documents etc. The idea that even a majority of these students will never use these skills or will use latex instead is in my opinion incredibly naive. You can move to latex afterwards but you have to teach them the simple skills too.

Many posters also seem to be overlooking the fact that most of the teachers on this thread are saying to do these basics first. Plenty of time to go into file systems and coding afterwards

PS my husband is in the tech industry and no one uses latex. He says when he was working in academia they used it but now in industry they all use google docs or office

jogdish

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

...PS my husband is in the tech industry and no one uses latex. He says when he was working in academia they used it but now in reality they all use google docs or office

...Please don't say reality as if academics don't do stuff that effects the real world.
Also any half decent user manual/guide for a product with not be written in a Word'esq type program, they will all be typeset.

Please don't waste education on teaching Word/Google docs...Anyone can learn that stuff by themselves, learning what a computer is how things work they way they do - that is where the helping hand of a teacher will come in.

spurious

jogdish wrote: »

Please don't waste education on teaching Word/Google docs...Anyone can learn that stuff by themselves, learning what a computer is how things work they way they do - that is where the helping hand of a teacher will come in.

If only that were true.


In an ideal world, we'd love to be teaching coding and dragging apart computers and while there is some scope for that in LCA, in first year it's about trying to watch 24 of them, protect the school's equipment and keep the noise level to an acceptable minimum.

If I could get them to stop referring to the monitor as 'the computer', I was part of the way there.

mirrorwall14

jogdish wrote: »

...Please don't say reality as if academics don't do stuff that effects the real world.
Also any half decent user manual/guide for a product with not be written in a Word'esq type program, they will all be typeset.

Please don't waste education on teaching Word/Google docs...Anyone can learn that stuff by themselves, learning what a computer is how things work they way they do - that is where the helping hand of a teacher will come in.

Point taken and edited to industry.

Everything else in my post stands. It is not a waste of education and I take umbrage at that. I have worked with 12/13 year olds and students do not learn this stuff themselves.

jogdish

@mirrorwall

It is not that I disagree with anyone being taught word/doc/etc, this was the way I was taught and it did me very little good. Personally my introduction to computers that clicked was being forced to learn how to connect to a network printer - boy did I learn

Perhaps my point came across too harsh, but imo teaching a 12/13 yo how to use word, then in 5/6 years hoping it will be relevant is not that great a use. My Netscape lessons would do me little good today.

However an adult/18yo class for people about/currently seeking jobs, ya needing to be able to format etc in word is great. I just don't see the value in teaching it to 12/13 age group. I know from my own experience, you will not absorb much till you need it - ie your uni report is due, that CV is needed, in personally I think it's a decent hour tops to know how to use the basics of an MS office suite ( with maybe the exception of certain excel things )

pillphil

If you have students interested in coding, the scratch suggestion is a good one, something like freecodecamp.com or codeacedemy.com might be useful to them, it teaches html, css and javascript. I'm not sure how well it would work for you to try and teach the class coding though, if you don't have experience with it yourself. You could just make the more capable students award of it.

To everyone saying there's not much to learn in office, there is an entire(albeit terrible) coding language as part of most office programs. Not that I'd necessarily recommend learning it, but it's there.

For example, I can open a browser window and manipulate websites, fill in and submit forms, extract data back to the program etc.

Edit: How about getting a throwaway PC and taking it apart with the class? Identify the components etc?

mirrorwall14

jogdish wrote: »

@mirrorwall

It is not that I disagree with anyone being taught word/doc/etc, this was the way I was taught and it did me very little good. Personally my introduction to computers that clicked was being forced to learn how to connect to a network printer - boy did I learn

Perhaps my point came across too harsh, but imo teaching a 12/13 yo how to use word, then in 5/6 years hoping it will be relevant is not that great a use. My Netscape lessons would do me little good today.

However an adult/18yo class for people about/currently seeking jobs, ya needing to be able to format etc in word is great. I just don't see the value in teaching it to 12/13 age group. I know from my own experience, you will not absorb much till you need it - ie your uni report is due, that CV is needed, in personally I think it's a decent hour tops to know how to use the basics of an MS office suite ( with maybe the exception of certain excel things )

Ah ok, you make more sense now but we are coming at it from different viewpoints. Have you read up on the new Junior cycle? Students simply have to have these skills by second year as there is a lot of project work to be completed by them so it becomes relevant very fast for them

We are constantly being told to incorporate project work etc into students education but when a less capable teacher brings a class of first years to the computer room and realised they can't actually create a document chaos ensues and the teacher never does it again. Hence needing it as early as possible. I did a lot of google drive collaborative work with TY last year, the learning curve for some of them was incredible-they just hadn't a clue

jogdish

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Ah ok, you make more sense now but we are coming at it from different viewpoints. Have you read up on the new Junior cycle? Students simply have to have these skills by second year as there is a lot of project work to be completed by them so it becomes relevant very fast for them

Ahhh, No have not read it, this humble pie tastes good If they need it, cool.

I will now divert my anger/rage towards whoever came up with this junior cycle.