UFC 202 Event Thread: Diaz v McGregor 2 (Information in OP)

JoeyJJ

Diaz via Decision

Well Conor cannot say nobody works harder than me crap, Kavanagh said earlier they trained whenever Conor had a whim (in the last camp). Not a great endorsement for either of them.

Now it seems he is better focused.

Saipanne

Diaz via Submission

JoeyJJ wrote: »

Well Conor cannot say nobody works harder than me crap, Kavanagh said earlier they trained whenever Conor had a whim (in the last camp). Not a great endorsement for either of them.

Now it seems he is better focused.

After he predicted with detail how he would destroy the p4p number one fighter, I can understand how that might have gone to his head. We will definitely see a more focused and we'll prepared McGregor this time, but I still think Diaz wins.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

JustTheOne wrote: »

That's bs.

Did you not read the audio of the fight?

He was telling conor to stop what he was doing as it wasn't working but conor ignored it.

John has coached a ufc champion all the way.

He has nothing to prove.

"What a fantastic round
Rinse and spit, you can hold onto the water
How you feeling?
McGregor: Good.
Nice.
Get the breathing there, feel that recovery.
Loading a little bit into the left hand falling into it, lets show the left hand and right uppercut, cause when you load up that he's leaning and there's the right uppercut.
You're looking beautiful.
You don't have to put everything on every shot.
Show that left hand, he's leaning, the right hand is there.
Let's pepper those legs as well we have those leg kicks yeah?
All right, let's show them another round.
There we go, full recovery, full recovery."

That to me isn't telling a fighter "stop what you're doing it isn't working".

It's basically saying "more of the same", with one line of advice on not putting everything into every shot.

Either way it went in one ear and out the other.



Course he has a lot to prove - if his goal is to be known and recognised as one of the worlds best MMA coaches. If he wants to be on the same level as Rafael Cordeiro, Greg Jackson etc he has to prove he can bring on other elite fighters and champions.

Otherwise all he'll be known for is being in right place, at right time that he had an athlete with a super skill set and mouth to match.

SantryRed

wonderfullife wrote: »

"What a fantastic round
Rinse and spit, you can hold onto the water
How you feeling?
McGregor: Good.
Nice.
Get the breathing there, feel that recovery.
Loading a little bit into the left hand falling into it, lets show the left hand and right uppercut, cause when you load up that he's leaning and there's the right uppercut.
You're looking beautiful.
You don't have to put everything on every shot.
Show that left hand, he's leaning, the right hand is there.
Let's pepper those legs as well we have those leg kicks yeah?
All right, let's show them another round.
There we go, full recovery, full recovery."

That to me isn't telling a fighter "stop what you're doing it isn't working".

It's basically saying "more of the same", with one line of advice on not putting everything into every shot.

Either way it went in one ear and out the other.



Course he has a lot to prove - if his goal is to be known and recognised as one of the worlds best MMA coaches. If he wants to be on the same level as Rafael Cordeiro, Greg Jackson etc he has to prove he can bring on other elite fighters and champions.

Otherwise all he'll be known for is being in right place, at right time that he had an athlete with a super skill set and mouth to match.

Trying to read your posts is an absolute melt.

ASOT

Diaz via Submission

Big John named as the ref.

DeVore

Diaz via Decision

That video is a relatively good analysis I think. It basically boils down to what I said before, McGregor punched himself out and lost his biggest asset, his movement. He has *woeful* hand defense as he has always preferred to bob and weave (amazingly well) and use his hands then as counter attack which in a sense is meta-game defense as his opponents are worrying about the counter attack before they throw anything.

In the first round it really DID seem like McGregor was doing things right, he was battering Diaz around and looked like a possible stop at one point but Diaz has Mcgregor's kryptonite.... a rock solid chin. Diaz didn't do anything particularly clever except survive some shots that would murder a 145'er. He kinda smashed his face against McGregors fists until McGregor got too tired to dodge and decided to take it to the ground in desperation. Diaz is excellent on the ground and I expect to see him perhaps take it there earlier this time.

Either McGregor points this over 3 rounds by fighting smart or Diaz wins this on the ground imho.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

SantryRed wrote: »

Trying to read your posts is an absolute melt.

Using proper quotations, grammar and structure not to your taste then

The post you quoted, if you followed the thread, was a direct quotation from John Kavanagh in the corner at the end of Round 1.

I was just arguing i don't think he conveyed his message clearly.

CatFromHue

wonderfullife wrote: »

Course he has a lot to prove - if his goal is to be known and recognised as one of the worlds best MMA coaches. If he wants to be on the same level as Rafael Cordeiro, Greg Jackson etc he has to prove he can bring on other elite fighters and champions.

Otherwise all he'll be known for is being in right place, at right time that he had an athlete with a super skill set and mouth to match.

The fact that he brought on so many fighters all ready shows he has something going for him and his gym.

I also think there's a bit of chicken and egg with gauging coaching ability at the highest level. Which comes first the high quality fighter or the high quality coaching?

Take Jackson Wink for example, obviously they're very good coaches but equally a lot of their fighters have moved to them after they've been established. I think Jon Jones went there after this third UFC fight.

Kavanagh isn't going to get many fighters from outside Ireland moving to his gym as it's a case of moving country completely. A lot of the guys who moved to Jackson Wink are American or American based so it's a much easier move.

John_D80

McGregor via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

Course he has a lot to prove - if his goal is to be known and recognised as one of the worlds best MMA coaches. If he wants to be on the same level as Rafael Cordeiro, Greg Jackson etc he has to prove he can bring on other elite fighters and champions.

Otherwise all he'll be known for is being in right place, at right time that he had an athlete with a super skill set and mouth to match.

Absolute bóllocks.

Kavanagh has already cemented his legacy as a world class coach and team builder. Plenty of outstanding coaches never even get one fighter in the UFC. he's had 5 including a champion.

Love him or hate him, no one can deny his achievements. Although it seems you are trying.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

CatFromHue wrote: »

The fact that he brought on so many fighters all ready shows he has something going for him and his gym.

I also think there's a bit of chicken and egg with gauging coaching ability at the highest level. Which comes first the high quality fighter or the high quality coaching?

Take Jackson Wink for example, obviously they're very good coaches but equally a lot of their fighters have moved to them after they've been established. I think Jon Jones went there after this third UFC fight.

Kavanagh isn't going to get many fighters from outside Ireland moving to his gym as it's a case of moving country completely. A lot of the guys who moved to Jackson Wink are American or American based so it's a much easier move.

Good points.

Plus, i'm not overly sure how much Kavanagh actually wants other top level fighters in his gym.

It seems to me he's more interested in making sure fighters fit in well with the group. Makwan Amirkhani was pretty much on a trial period at the start.

He seems more focused on looking after his existing stars (Conor, Gunni) and trying to bring through the next wave such as Peter Queally, James Gallagher, Dylan Tuke etc.

It's very possible SBG produce another UFC champion in the coming 5 years.

I don't think either Conor or Gunni will be sticking around into their mid-to-late 30's, i think both seem pretty level headed about their competitive shelf life.

It'll be a tough road but Gunni seems the likeliest to get the next shot at gold. Possibly 3 or 4 wins away still from that opportunity.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

John_D80 wrote: »

Absolute bóllocks.

Kavanagh has already cemented his legacy as a world class coach and team builder. Plenty of outstanding coaches never even get one fighter in the UFC. he's had 5 including a champion.

Love him or hate him, no one can deny his achievements. Although it seems you are trying.

Listen, all i'm saying is if Kavanagh wants SBG to be held in the same esteem as American Top Team, AKA, Tristar, Kings MMA etc then he's far from there yet.

If that's the ambition, he has a long way to go. Maybe that's not his ambition.

His achievements at the very top level so far are:

1 UFC World Champion with zero title defences to date.

Great achievement but nowhere near enough to be in the same conversation as the gyms mentioned above.

If he wants SBG to be a major player and world renowned gym, he's got to bring the likes of Gunni, Dylan Tuke, Gallagher, Mlambo, Makwan etc to the top of the game.

Otherwise, SBG will remain what it is now - known worldwide only for Conor McGregor.

That's just a fact. Very few outside Ireland could name more than 3 fighters who fight from SBG. Most of them could name more than 3 fighters from Tristar, ATT, Kings MMA.

CatFromHue

wonderfullife wrote: »

Plus, i'm not overly sure how much Kavanagh actually wants other top level fighters in his gym.

It seems to me he's more interested in making sure fighters fit in well with the group. Makwan Amirkhani was pretty much on a trial period at the start.

I saw an interview with Greg Jackson and he was saying when it comes to a new guy coming to the gym it's all about attitude and how he fits in.

Which I think is one of the main things people look for when recruiting for any job.

John_D80

McGregor via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

Listen, all i'm saying is if Kavanagh wants SBG to be held in the same esteem as American Top Team, AKA, Tristar, Kings MMA etc then he's far from there yet.

If that's the ambition, he has a long way to go. Maybe that's not his ambition.

His achievements at the very top level so far are:

1 UFC World Champion with zero title defences to date.

Great achievement but nowhere near enough to be in the same conversation as the gyms mentioned above.

If he wants SBG to be a major player and world renowned gym, he's got to bring the likes of Gunni, Dylan Tuke, Gallagher, Mlambo, Makwan etc to the top of the game.

Otherwise, SBG will remain what it is now - known worldwide only for Conor McGregor.

That's just a fact. Very few outside Ireland could name more than 3 fighters who fight from SBG. Most of them could name more than 3 fighters from Tristar, ATT, Kings MMA.

So in order to be considered a great coach, he must elevate SBG to the same levels as those teams you named??

You're not really comparing like with like in the slightest to be fair. The teams you mentioned all have far greater financial backing and larger population catchment by far than SBG or irish or British teams. Relatively and proportionately speaking SBG (Ireland) is quite possibly already up there with all of those.

And the fact that you limit his and the teams total achievements to ''1 UFC world champion, with zero title defences to date'' is actually laughable.

Devastator

McGregor via Submission

CatFromHue wrote: »

The fact that he brought on so many fighters all ready shows he has something going for him and his gym.

I also think there's a bit of chicken and egg with gauging coaching ability at the highest level. Which comes first the high quality fighter or the high quality coaching?

Take Jackson Wink for example, obviously they're very good coaches but equally a lot of their fighters have moved to them after they've been established. I think Jon Jones went there after this third UFC fight.

Kavanagh isn't going to get many fighters from outside Ireland moving to his gym as it's a case of moving country completely. A lot of the guys who moved to Jackson Wink are American or American based so it's a much easier move.

Good points, obviously the fighters have to have something but the coaching is a big part of a fighters success aswell. Heres an example from the other end of the scale, I'm not sure if this is true because it was posted by Rothwell to the Tarvarian parody account so it could be tongue in cheek(I cant be bothered to check the facts) but Ben was obviously taking the piss by the post anyway

Subcomandante Marcos

Diaz via Submission

Devastator wrote: »

Good points, obviously the fighters have to have something but the coaching is a big part of a fighters success aswell. Heres an example from the other end of the scale, I'm not sure if this is true because it was posted by Rothwell to the Tarvarian parody account so it could be tongue in cheek(I cant be bothered to check the facts) but Ben was obviously taking the piss by the post anyway

Either this is old or inaccurate seeing as Brown beat Schaub and Mittrione since moving to glendale.

That aside, Edmund is a terrible coach.

Devastator

McGregor via Submission

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Either this is old or inaccurate seeing as Brown beat Schaub and Mittrione since moving to glendale.

That aside, Edmund is a terrible coach.

lol as I said I didn't check details.


Not be wonderfullife's logic, he's better than JK & SBG because RR has title defences

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

John_D80 wrote: »

So in order to be considered a great coach, he must elevate SBG to the same levels as those teams you named??

You're not really comparing like with like in the slightest to be fair. The teams you mentioned all have far greater financial backing and larger population catchment by far than SBG or irish or British teams. Relatively and proportionately speaking SBG (Ireland) is quite possibly already up there with all of those.

And the fact that you limit his and the teams total achievements to ''1 UFC world champion, with zero title defences to date'' is actually laughable.

In order to be considered a great GYM, then yeah he'd need to reach new levels.

Larger population catchment?

Hmmmm.

You can't define a gym by a catchment area. That's just nonsense.

Albuquerque has a population of 550,000. Dublin has a similar population.

By your logic, it's fair to compare SBG and Jackson MMA by catchment size purely based from the population of the cities they are in.

If anything, SBG has a larger direct catchment if you take the island of Ireland as 6 million, the state of New Mexico has 2 million.

Yes his TOP LEVEL achievements in MMA as a coach is pretty much Conor McGregor. So far.

Where top level is the absolute elite of the sport.

If you're going down the road of pointing to success in BAMMA, Cage Warriors, IMMAF etc then that's clearly not the top level of the sport.

John_D80

McGregor via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

In order to be considered a great GYM, then yeah he'd need to reach new levels.

Larger population catchment?

Hmmmm.

You can't define a gym by a catchment area. That's just nonsense.

Albuquerque has a population of 550,000. Dublin has a similar population.

By your logic, it's fair to compare SBG and Jackson MMA by catchment size purely based from the population of the cities they are in.

If anything, SBG has a larger direct catchment if you take the island of Ireland as 6 million, the state of New Mexico has 2 million.

Yes his TOP LEVEL achievements in MMA as a coach is pretty much Conor McGregor. So far.

Where top level is the absolute elite of the sport.

If you're going down the road of pointing to success in BAMMA, Cage Warriors, IMMAF etc then that's clearly not the top level of the sport.

SBG is already a great gym and team. Arguably one of the best in Europe.

JacksonWink can attract far more established fighters and bigger names than Irish and European teams purely by virtue of the fact that they are in America. How many of Jackson winks biggest names are actually from the Albequerqe area?? I can only think of 3 right off the top of my head. The rest have mostly come based on the achievements of others. With the exception of a few, SBG's talent pool is almost entirely homegrown and Mostly from Dublin. Very few American teams can say that.

Catchment area and population are obviously a factor. Can't deny it. It's the reason Iceland has one Ufc fighter and Brazil has had more than anyone could possibly count.

Look if you think getting 4 other fighters to the ufc doesn't count as achievements worth noting you obviously have very high standards as to what makes a good coach and team builder. Not to mention the fighters he has winning titles and making waves in other promotions. And yes I am including BAMMA, Cage Warriors, Bellator, EFC etc. All credible promotions in their own right.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

John_D80 wrote: »

SBG is already a great gym and team. Arguably one of the best in Europe.

JacksonWink can attract far more established fighters and bigger names than Irish and European teams purely by virtue of the fact that they are in America. How many of Jackson winks biggest names are actually from the Albequerqe area?? I can only think of 3 right off the top of my head. The rest have mostly come based on the achievements of others. With the exception of a few, SBG's talent pool is almost entirely homegrown and Mostly from Dublin. Very few American teams can say that.

Catchment area and population are obviously a factor. Can't deny it. It's the reason Iceland has one Ufc fighter and Brazil has had more than anyone could possibly count.

Look if you think getting 4 other fighters to the ufc doesn't count as achievements worth noting you obviously have very high standards as to what makes a good coach and team builder. Not to mention the fighters he has winning titles and making waves in other promotions. And yes I am including BAMMA, Cage Warriors, Bellator, EFC etc. All credible promotions in their own right.

They're tremendous achievements and i don't think you're appreciating the sentiment of what i'm saying.

You argued that John Kavanagh is a world-class coach and SBG is a world class gym.

I'm saying they've still a bit to go in both respects.

Being realistic, SBGs catchment is about 70 million. The UK and Ireland.

If any up-and-coming fighter or existing talent in the UK wanted to move to SBG it would be no more of a hassle to move or commute to Dublin as it is for someone like Jon Jones to uproot from NY to New Mexico.

If anything it's a lot easier.

A lot of European based fighters have uprooted and moved to gyms in America and Canada.

Maybe some day SBG will have enough of a reputation as a world class gym that would attract that talent without them needing to make such a big move.

Right now, you've got Nate dumping all over SBG and the quality of fighter Conor has at his disposal.

You're hard pressed to argue against him in some ways - Conor doesn't have much in the way of Elite training partners. Gunni isn't involved for large parts of Conors camps.

In fact, you could argue that the decision to draft in Dillon Danis and Connor Wallace for this camp supports the fact that SBG don't have enough elite talent at their disposal currently.

Mellor

McGregor via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

He should have been nowhere near BAMMA 24 late February when his star fighter was a week out from a huge fight.

You think he should have thrown everyone else on the team under the bus?


I also don't understand how you think

"stop loading up every shot", and
"pepper him with leg kicks"

...equates to more of the "same in this round". The advice above is clearly what Conor should have been doing, but he ignored it.
Regardless, even if he had of said "more of the same", I thought you said Conor dominated the first? Then why not do the same in your opinion.

John_D80

McGregor via Submission

wonderfullife wrote: »

They're tremendous achievements and i don't think you're appreciating the sentiment of what i'm saying.

You argued that John Kavanagh is a world-class coach and SBG is a world class gym.

I'm saying they've still a bit to go in both respects.

Being realistic, SBGs catchment is about 70 million. The UK and Ireland.

If any up-and-coming fighter or existing talent in the UK wanted to move to SBG it would be no more of a hassle to move or commute to Dublin as it is for someone like Jon Jones to uproot from NY to New Mexico.

If anything it's a lot easier.

A lot of European based fighters have uprooted and moved to gyms in America and Canada.

Maybe some day SBG will have enough of a reputation as a world class gym that would attract that talent without them needing to make such a big move.

Right now, you've got Nate dumping all over SBG and the quality of fighter Conor has at his disposal.

You're hard pressed to argue against him in some ways - Conor doesn't have much in the way of Elite training partners. Gunni isn't involved for large parts of Conors camps.

In fact, you could argue that the decision to draft in Dillon Danis and Connor Wallace for this camp supports the fact that SBG don't have enough elite talent at their disposal currently.

So much fail in this post I'm not even going to bother.

I'd say you were the kid who kept beating the square peg with the hammer until you could just jam it into the round hole.

hefferboi

Its not about catchment area imo. Its about how popular the sport is in the country. Mma has only taken off in Ireland in the last 3 years in fairness. Before that there was no mention of it in the mainstream like it is today. Obviously gyms in the US will produce more top fighters because its been popular there for 15 to 20 years.

darced

Diaz via Submission

This post has been deleted.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

Mellor wrote: »

You think he should have thrown everyone else on the team under the bus?


I also don't understand how you think


...equates to more of the "same in this round". The advice above is clearly what Conor should have been doing, but he ignored it.
Regardless, even if he had of said "more of the same", I thought you said Conor dominated the first? Then why not do the same in your opinion.

Yeah. I think precisely that.

If you mean prioritising and not cornering a fighter is throwing them under the bus, then yes. If that's your take, he threw James Gallagher under the bus at the weekend.

My take is - If your sole UFC World Champion (and biggest star in MMA) is a week out from a huge fight, the Head Coach should be there overseeing every step of that training camp - and not ringside at a comparatively Micky Mouse BAMMA event.

Conor did dominate Round 1 in my view. He at least won the round which we can all concede.

More of the same would have been absolutely fine advice other than the fact Kavanagh admitted post-fight it's the most tired he's ever seen Conor after 1 round.

He should have beaten him over the head with a stick to slow the pace of the fight.

CatFromHue

wonderfullife wrote: »

Being realistic, SBGs catchment is about 70 million. The UK and Ireland.

If any up-and-coming fighter or existing talent in the UK wanted to move to SBG it would be no more of a hassle to move or commute to Dublin as it is for someone like Jon Jones to uproot from NY to New Mexico.

If anything it's a lot easier.

A lot of European based fighters have uprooted and moved to gyms in America and Canada.

I don't think this is 100% right.

There is a reason why the European fighters leave to go to the US and Canada and skip Dublin on the way. You'll be operating in or much closer to the country you'll be fighting in so that makes it much easier for sponsorship etc, much easier to get the UFC's eye, and other guys are moving too giving those gyms competitive training partners.

An American moving gym in America is no biggie too as it's largely the same country no matter where you go so much easier culturally, as well as all the reason mentioned above.

Whereas if a European fighter moves to Dublin they're still out of sight of the UFC, sponsorship is non existent, they'll have little to no profile, plus they'll have to travel to fight as well.

It makes little sense for a European fighter to move to Dublin. If you're going to move you're best moving to America straight off.

Mellor

McGregor via Submission

I've always thought that the grappling ability of the SBG guys speaks volume about Johns coaching ability, as his background in in BJJ. But the striking issues you mention are more reflective of the striking coaches, or lack thereof (the latter would be a John issue I suppose)

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

John_D80 wrote: »

So much fail in this post I'm not even going to bother.

I'd say you were the kid who kept beating the square peg with the hammer until you could just jam it into the round hole.

I'd say you were the kid who didn't make the Debate team because you'd rather give up than have a constructive, engaging argument :rolleyes:

Your point was very clear - that Kavanagh is a world class coach and SBG are a world class gym.

I think you're wrong on both points.

Kavanagh is potentially world class and SBG is potentially world class.

Right now, both statements are unproven; and the best you can come up with is a few BAMMA belts, and some success in regional promotions.

No gym with aspirations of being world class is going to harp on about success in a regional promotion.

The elite of the sport is the UFC.

Even Bellator is a distant second but you could put that in the elite bracket at a push.

Until/Unless Kavanagh and SBG produce more top contenders and champions then they will remain a "good" gym and "good" coach.

Outside of Conor and Gunni (13-3 UFC), SBGs record is 10-9 (Ais/Paddy/Tom/Cathal/Artem/Makwan).

hefferboi

Mellor wrote: »

I've always thought that the grappling ability of the SBG guys speaks volume about Johns coaching ability, as his background in in BJJ. But the striking issues you mention are more reflective of the striking coaches, or lack thereof (the latter would be a John issue I suppose)

Would John get credit for Gunni's bjj or did he move to SBG when he was already at a high level?

Lukker-

Mellor wrote: »

I've always thought that the grappling ability of the SBG guys speaks volume about Johns coaching ability, as his background in in BJJ. But the striking issues you mention are more reflective of the striking coaches, or lack thereof (the latter would be a John issue I suppose)

I think that will balance itself out. Most MMA gyms in Ireland starting out had BJJ as their corner stone. Lots of people with Kickboxing/boxing/muay thai backgrounds have switched to MMA, so I think the level of striking will natural improve with that.

wonderfullife

McGregor via Submission

CatFromHue wrote: »

I don't think this is 100% right.

There is a reason why the European fighters leave to go to the US and Canada and skip Dublin on the way. You'll be operating in or much closer to the country you'll be fighting in so that makes it much easier for sponsorship etc, much easier to get the UFC's eye, and other guys are moving too giving those gyms competitive training partners.

An American moving gym in America is no biggie too as it's largely the same country no matter where you go so much easier culturally, as well as all the reason mentioned above.

Whereas if a European fighter moves to Dublin they're still out of sight of the UFC, sponsorship is non existent, they'll have little to no profile, plus they'll have to travel to fight as well.

It makes little sense for a European fighter to move to Dublin. If you're going to move you're best moving to America straight off.

Points taken, however -

Do you think that would hold true if SBG had world class athletes in the gym?

Do you still think an athlete would sooner move themselves/their family to North America from Europe if there was a world class gym closer in Ireland?

If SBG had Conor McGregor, Gunnar Nelson, Demetrious Johnson, Michael Page, Khabib, Jacare training out of the gym, do you still think America would be the first port of call for elite European talent?

I don't.

I think the primary reason they go to America is the quality of coaching and training is higher than they can get in Europe. They can go to Tristar or Kings MMA or ATT and have a star roster in the gym to train with and learn from.

So, ultimately, if SBG do produce more world class talent and become a renowned world class gym it makes it easier to attract more talent.