Apcoa fine for Tax Disc Expired

SteelyDanJalapeno

As the title suggests, was parking round Douglas in Cork the weekend for 20 mins, paid my parking ticket and off I went. I returned to a 60 euro fine for my "tax disc expired", I had actually paid for the tax online that morning thou, I've requested a receipt from the tax office now.

Can I appeal?

D3V!L

TiltedBrain wrote: »

As the title suggests, was parking round Douglas in Cork the weekend for 20 mins, paid my parking ticket and off I went. I returned to a 60 euro fine for my "tax disc expired", I had actually paid for the tax online that morning thou, I've requested a receipt from the tax office now.

Can I appeal?

APCOA can't fine you for an expired tax disc, they're a private company.

Chance bags.bin it

2012paddy2012

Waste of time . You would have been the disc by hand if all the docs were in order.
Not display is offence. No grounds of appeal. They photograph the blank windscreen as well

2012paddy2012

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Waste of time . You would have been the disc by hand if all the docs were in order.
Not display is offence. No grounds of appeal. They photograph the blank windscreen as well

Its a fine from a private company ,
no need to pay it

Charles Babbage

D3V!L wrote: »

TiltedBrain wrote: »

As the title suggests, was parking round Douglas in Cork the weekend for 20 mins, paid my parking ticket and off I went. I returned to a 60 euro fine for my "tax disc expired", I had actually paid for the tax online that morning thou, I've requested a receipt from the tax office now.

Can I appeal?

APCOA can't fine you for an expired tax disc, they're a private company.

Presumably they can if the relevant authority has appointed them to do so.
Non display. Just pay it!

bmwguy

I didn't know that they could do this, I actually doubt they can. Unless contracted by local authority, but I wouldn't be rushing to pay it. Don't mind the people telling you it's your fault and pay it, make sure you have a legal obligation first

Sh1tbag OToole

TiltedBrain wrote: »

As the title suggests, was parking round Douglas in Cork the weekend for 20 mins, paid my parking ticket and off I went. I returned to a 60 euro fine for my "tax disc expired", I had actually paid for the tax online that morning thou, I've requested a receipt from the tax office now.

Can I appeal?

Does the fine mention APCOA on it?

emo72

Wouldn't pay that. Are they going to take you to court for 60 euro? Absolute chancers.

coylemj

The fine on the spot is issued by the local authority, for whom Apcoa are acting as enforcement agents. They do parking enforcement for Fingal and Cork county councils and they used to do Dun Laoghaire as well so if there was an opportunity to challenge the legal basis for this operation, somebody would have done it by now.

If you don't pay the ticket, the local authority will summons you to the District Court, the Apcoa employee will give evidence and you will be fined roughly double the amount on the ticket plus the council will ask for and get roughly €80 in 'expenses'.

Paying for the tax disc and displaying it are two separate offences so technically it counts for nothing even if you can show that you paid the tax that morning as the OP is suggesting. There is an unofficial 10 days 'grace' at the beginning of each month during which Gardai and traffic wardens typically overlook recently expired tax discs, that period expired last Wednesday August 10th so if you were caught at the weekend, you have no excuse.

Pay the fine.

SteelyDanJalapeno

The offence said tax disc expired, I've paid my tax, why on earth would I pay fine stating I haven't paid my tax

Atlantic Dawn

Main issue here is that with Apcoa being traffic wardens for the council gives them powers to demand your name and address and it becomes an offence not to supply it to them so they could be putting a clamp on your car in their assigned area and asking these details...

Traffic wardens can request or demand your name and address. They are obliged to carry identification with them and to identify themselves as traffic wardens. Failure to give your name and address on demand is also an offence and you may be liable on a summary conviction to a fine.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/traffic_and_parking/traffic_wardens_in_ireland.html

emo72

TiltedBrain wrote: »

The offence said tax disc expired, I've paid my tax, why on earth would I pay fine stating I haven't paid my tax

Alas, you are not being fined for not paying. The fine is for not having a disc on display. Granted it sucks.

ironclaw

TiltedBrain wrote: »

The offence said tax disc expired, I've paid my tax, why on earth would I pay fine stating I haven't paid my tax

There are two, distinct offenses:

- Not having paid motor tax.

- Not displaying a valid tax disc.

You are guilty of the latter, clear of the former. I agree, its nonsense and we should all be paperless by now, but you have actually broken the law here. If the Apcoa agent is working on behalf of a Council, you do have to pay it.

bmwguy

emo72 wrote: »

Wouldn't pay that. Are they going to take you to court for 60 euro? Absolute chancers.

I got taken to court for not paying a 40 Euro fine by kildare county council for my parking ticket expired. They had about 20 of us in on the one morning.

Ended up fined 250 in court.

sundodger5

I would go to court showing tax was paid on the date just waiting on the disc to arrive.
Be surprised if it wasn't dismissed to be honest.
Reminds me of years ago when you had to bring in the old disc to the tax office when getting your tax renewed. We had a smart traffic warden who would wait until people went into the office and then doing them for non display of tax.
Crazy set up but thrown out in court.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Header on the fine says Cork County Council, and Apcoa mentioned further down the fine alright.

Gonna appeal either way.

coylemj

TiltedBrain wrote: »

The offence said tax disc expired, I've paid my tax, why on earth would I pay fine stating I haven't paid my tax

You can't get a ticket for 'tax disc expired' because if you had no disc on the windscreeen, it's not possible to tell if you have paid or not - that's why they created the separate offence (S.73 Finance Act 1976) of not displaying a current disc.....

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1976/act/16/section/73/enacted/en/html#sec73

ba_barabus

coylemj wrote: »

You can't get a ticket for 'tax disc expired' because if you had no disc on the windscreeen, it's not possible to tell if you have paid or not - that's why they created the separate offence (Finance Act 1976) of not displaying a current disc.

I'd work off what is written on the ticket. If they've written tax disc expired I'd challenge it.

Sh1tbag OToole

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Non display. Just pay it!

coylemj wrote: »

Pay the fine.

Ohhhh don't ya just love that feeling you get from laying down the law on some random hapless boards poster!

savagethegoat

I'd say if you were to contact the Council , the fine would be struck out.

Don't ignore it though. APCOA are filling the role of official wardens here and you have committed an offense by not having a valid tax disc on display

Sam Kade

How long was the tax disc expired?

coylemj

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Ohhhh don't ya just love that feeling you get from laying down the law on some random hapless boards poster!

Not laying down the law on anyone, just trying to counter the reckless and ill-informed advice that he should not pay it which will lead to this ..

bmwguy wrote: »

I got taken to court for not paying a 40 Euro fine by kildare county council for my parking ticket expired. They had about 20 of us in on the one morning.

Ended up fined 250 in court.

OP parked a car in a public place with no valid tax disc on the windscreen more than 10 days after the grace period, he has no basis for an appeal and should pay the fine or he will end up getting stiffed for a couple of hundred like the poster above.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Sam Kade wrote: »

How long was the tax disc expired?

What does that matter?

endagibson

coylemj wrote: »

OP parked a car in a public place with no valid tax disc on the windscreen more than 10 days after the grace period, he has no basis for an appeal and should pay the fine or he will end up getting stiffed for a couple of hundred like the poster above.

But that's not what his fine says (assuming what he has quoted previously is correct). There are two offences; he's not guilty of one and he's not being fined for the other. He's being fined for an offence which doesn't exist.
At least that's how it appears to me.

Del2005

sundodger5 wrote: »

I would go to court showing tax was paid on the date just waiting on the disc to arrive.
Be surprised if it wasn't dismissed to be honest.
Reminds me of years ago when you had to bring in the old disc to the tax office when getting your tax renewed. We had a smart traffic warden who would wait until people went into the office and then doing them for non display of tax.
Crazy set up but thrown out in court.

How much is it going to cost the OP, in holiday time and travel expenses, to fight a €60 fine which they are guilty off? They where fined for an expired tax disc/non display of valid disc and since they didn't have a valid tax disc on display there's not much grounds for appeal.

savagethegoat

coylemj wrote: »

Not laying down the law on anyone, just trying to counter the reckless and ill-informed advice that he should not pay it which will lead to this ..



OP parked a car in a public place with no valid tax disc on the windscreen more than 10 days after the grace period, he has no basis for an appeal and should pay the fine or he will end up getting stiffed for a couple of hundred like the poster above.

There is no grace period.

bazz26

Just go into the Traffic fines desk in the County Council office and show them proof that the car is taxed and it will most likely be struck out. Yes I know not displaying a current valid tax disc is not the same offense as not having tax but guess what, this is Ireland where there are some silly laws in place where common sense doesn't really come into it until you go through the appeal process.

Ignoring it doesn't mean it will just go away, it will just snowball into a court summons/appearance where you end up spending half or all the day waiting for your case to come up before the judge. The courts in this country are congested enough as it is with pointless summons and cases so why waste your own and a judges time.

sundodger5

How much is it going to cost the OP, in holiday time and travel expenses, to fight a €60 fine which they are guilty off? They where fined for an expired tax disc/non display of valid disc and since they didn't have a valid tax disc on display there's not much grounds for appeal.

Technically you are correct, however judges usually use common sense and will deal with it in a common sense way.

Buffman

TiltedBrain wrote: »

I had actually paid for the tax online that morning thou, I've requested a receipt from the tax office now.

Can I appeal?

Ye, once you get proof of payment detailing that you had paid before being fined you should appeal it and it will be cancelled.

Here's the procedure if it was a Garda that had fined you, as you're dealing with Cork County Council you'll have to contact them. (I always save the online payment confirmation onto the computer if paying online for exactly this reason)

Cancellation requests fall into two categories. Category A covers mainly procedural issues. Category B relate to cancellations based on exceptional circumstances e.g. .
Category A
Cancellation requests falling within this category include –

1. Where there is a detection issue / material error in relation to the alleged offence as outlined on the FCN e.g. incorrect speed limit.
2. Seat Belt Exemption – Where the recipient is exempt from the wearing of a seat belt e.g. is the holder of a Medical Certificate of Exemption from Compulsory Safety Belt/Child Restraint System Wearing
3. Where the recipient of the FCN has a statutory exemption in relation to the offence alleged on the FCN.
4. In relation to an FCN for non-display of motor tax or insurance disc, motor tax had been taken out or applied for, or in the case of the non display of an insurance disc motor insurance was in place, at the time of the alleged offence.
5. Where the FCN was issued to the registered owner for an offence allegedly committed while the vehicle was stolen
6. Where there is an issue with the vehicle registered owner details e.g. vehicle had been sold or scrapped
7. If the recipient of the FCN is, on the date of the alleged offence, under 18 years of age, he / she is admitted to a diversion programme as provided for in Part 4 of the Children Act 2001.

Sam Kade

TiltedBrain wrote: »

What does that matter?

It matters a lot if it's out a long time.

jca

sundodger5 wrote: »

I would go to court showing tax was paid on the date just waiting on the disc to arrive.
Be surprised if it wasn't dismissed to be honest.
Reminds me of years ago when you had to bring in the old disc to the tax office when getting your tax renewed. We had a smart traffic warden who would wait until people went into the office and then doing them for non display of tax.
Crazy set up but thrown out in court.

Complete rubbish. I've never heard of bringing the old tax disc to renew your tax, unless you're talking about the early 70s and earlier. I do remember the list required prior to online/postal renewal. Tax book, renewal notice, insurance cert (not disc when discs arrived) and of course the required fee. Bring a flask and sandwiches in preparation for the long wait.

jca

Sam Kade wrote: »

It matters a lot if it's out a long time.

It doesn't matter a jot, the car is taxed.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Sam Kade wrote: »

It matters a lot if it's out a long time.

Who's to say my car wasn't up in the bedroom for the period it was untaxed?

coylemj

jca wrote: »

Complete rubbish. I've never heard of bringing the old tax disc to renew your tax, unless you're talking about the early 70s and earlier. I do remember the list required prior to online/postal renewal. Tax book, renewal notice, insurance cert (not disc when discs arrived) and of course the required fee. Bring a flask and sandwiches in preparation for the long wait.

+1 you never needed to bring the old disc into the motor tax office to get a renewal. If you did, it would also have been required to send it off to your county council with a renewal done by post which would have left you with no disc for several days.

And if people got stung by traffic wardens for no tax when they parked outside the tax office, it was because their tax disc had expired which is why they were there in the first place. It was not because they had to bring the old disc in with them.

savagethegoat

shouldn't need it spelt out, but it would be looked at more favourably if the tax was just out than if it had been out for months.

SteelyDanJalapeno

My tax wasn't out at all was fully paid for

SteelyDanJalapeno

How do they now have a database to check this ****

route66

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kade
How long was the tax disc expired?

TiltedBrain wrote: »

What does that matter?

Really, that long?

SteelyDanJalapeno

route66 wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Kade
How long was the tax disc expired?



Really, that long?

6 weeks, I don't see the relevance to the thread thou, I've paid any arrears I owe and the car was taxed for a year when I received a ticket.

Del2005

TiltedBrain wrote: »

How do they now have a database to check this ****

They do have a database linked to ANPR. But the OP wasn't fined for no tax they where fined for non display of a valid tax disc.

LoLth

TiltedBrain wrote: »

6 weeks, I don't see the relevance to the thread thou, I've paid any arrears I owe and the car was taxed for a year when I received a ticket.

As already suggested, bring your proof of payment to the council / Gardai and explain the situation. You know it was taxed at the time of the ticket but the person giving the ticket had no way of knowing that.

as long as you have a proof of payment in the form of the receipt or confirmation that shows your payment made before the time printed on your ticket you'll be fine.

I always thought you had three days to bring your up-to-date tax disk to the local garda station to show that you had bought it but it was in the mail at the time of check or stop.

Damien360

TiltedBrain wrote: »

My tax wasn't out at all was fully paid for

The offence is for non-display of valid tax disc. If it wasn't displayed, despite being in date or you were displaying the old one then you haven't a leg to stand on in court. The wardens usually take pictures of offences as proof.

bazz26

TiltedBrain wrote: »

6 weeks, I don't see the relevance to the thread thou, I've paid any arrears I owe and the car was taxed for a year when I received a ticket.

Unless I am reading all this wrong.

You were not ticketed for not having tax. You were ticketed for not displaying a valid tax disc on your vehicle. They are two different offenses. The person issuing the ticket may not have the ability to check there and then if your car was actually taxed or not, they could only go on the tax disc displayed in the window which I presume was the old expired disc.

Anyway as I said earlier, go into your local county council office and show them that the car was taxed and they will most likely strike out the ticket.

2012paddy2012

BrownFinger wrote: »

Its a fine from a private company ,
no need to pay it

Such a stupid comment. Do you really think a private company pays employees to issue fines for traffic breaches and the people that employ that private company cannot prosecute unpaid fines? This case council would be complaint and employee would be witness called to give evidence and photographic evidence if applicable

Alan_007_

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=13233

Not sure if it's mentioned in this page, but there's a form that you can download and fill out to appeal the fine.

It says a bit about how you can appeal the fine for non display if the tax is actually paid for, down towards the bottom of the page.