Received rent increase letter, can't afford it

snowgal

Hi there. My OH and I have been renting a house for just short of 6 years now. A few months ago the landlord came around to say hello (check the house I guess) and then on Friday we got a letter saying that the rent is going up by €200 in October. In reality we were expecting an increase of some kind as there has been none since we moved in and with the rent prices in the area going up hugely it was only a matter of time. The thing is I dont think we can afford the 200 rise. Obviously we dont want to move but its looking likely. I just wondered is there any point in trying to negotiate at all and if not does that mean we'd have to be out by the 1st October? We have had no problems at all with them. We've only seen them twice in the 6 years that we've been there.

54and56

snowgal wrote: »

Hi there. My OH and I have been renting a house for just short of 6 years now. A few months ago the landlord came around to say hello (check the house I guess) and then on Friday we got a letter saying that the rent is going up by €200 in October. In reality we were expecting an increase of some kind as there has been none since we moved in and with the rent prices in the area going up hugely it was only a matter of time. The thing is I dont think we can afford the 200 rise. Obviously we dont want to move but its looking likely. I just wondered is there any point in trying to negotiate at all and if not does that mean we'd have to be out by the 1st October? We have had no problems at all with them. We've only seen them twice in the 6 years that we've been there.

Not sure about the date you'd have to be out if you don't accept the proposed rent increase but you're clearly a good low maintenance type tenant so the Landlord won't want to lose you. Check out rental prices of equivalent houses in your area and see if the €200 rise is in line with the market or not. Either way if I was in your shoes I'd revert to the landlord in a calm and respectful manner stating that whilst you are happy to continue being his tenants you really can't afford the proposed increase and request that it be reduced to €100 and set at that for the next three years (if you intend staying on that long) so you both have some certainty.

If you are good tenants and respond reasonably it's probable that a landlord who hasn't been intrusive or trouble in any way over a six year period will respond sympathetically.

Best of luck.

Ms Doubtfire1

There are various rules the LL needs to adhere to when increasing the rent.
Info here:

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/dealing-with-problems-during-your-tenancy/how-to-deal-with-rent-increases/

snowgal

Thanks to you both for this. After looking at that I think they will need to give us more notice as the letter was dated 28 July but the increase is for Oct 1st. Also I dont know if it means anything to them but when I check the RTB average rent for our area and house type it is what we are currently paying. I dont want to start any of this kind of thing yet as I say we get on fine, we dont hassle them and they dont hassle us! We'll write a letter asking them to review it/compromise...We would pay an extra €100. I know that if we were to leave they'd have to re freshen the house, get things repaired etc so Im hoping they dont want to do that....

handlemaster

Again LL s should note no matter how long you give below market rent the tenant will not appreciate it when you put the price up to market rate. Tenants never see the benefit they have had.

Sad Professor

handlemaster wrote: »

Again LL s should note no matter how long you give below market rent the tenant will not appreciate it when you put the price up to market rate. Tenants never see the benefit they have had.

Sure but that goes both ways with landlords not always appreciating good tenants who pay for repairs etc out of their own pocket, often out of fear that if they ask the landlord they'll increase the rent. Big rent increases that come after several years of no change aren't going to be appreciated by low income tenants anymore than big decreases will be appreciated by small landlords who are relying on that income. But that's the nature of our under regulated and unstable rental market. Ideally rent increases would be more predictable to the benefit of both tenant and landlord who would be able to plan their lives/investments around it.

Gatling

How much less rent compared to other properties in the area currently are you paying

handlemaster

Sad Professor wrote: »

Sure but that goes both ways with landlords not always appreciating good tenants who pay for repairs etc out of their own pocket, often out of fear that if they ask the landlord they'll increase the rent. Big rent increases that come after several years of no change aren't going to be appreciated by low income tenants anymore than big decreases will be appreciated by small landlords who are relying on that income. But that's the nature of our under regulated and unstable rental market. Ideally rent increases would be more predictable to the benefit of both tenant and landlord who would be able to plan their lives/investments around it.

Whats a good tenant ? How much should the LL give to tenants on average to keep them 'happy'. Thats what it is giving... lost income. There are charities out there if that what a tenant is looking for..

the_syco

snowgal wrote: »

when I check the RTB average rent for our area and house type it is what we are currently paying

Could you move in that case? If so, bring the info to the landlord, and check why is he increasing the rent.

_Kaiser_

handlemaster wrote: »

Whats a good tenant ? How much should the LL give to tenants on average to keep them 'happy'. Thats what it is giving... lost income. There are charities out there if that what a tenant is looking for..

That's not very helpful, but not surprising on this forum either.

I dunno... LL's (rightly) complain about tenants who wreck the place, cause complaints from neighbours, or who don't pay rent, or who skip out before the lease is up, and then you have situations like the OP who from the sounds of it is exactly what LL's say they want - reliable, long term (ie: that income you're talking about is stable and predictable), and who never bother their LL for anything - and yet they still can't win and should be fine with having their rent randomly hiked with the minimum required notice (if even that).

It's not the tenant's fault that the LL didn't gradually increase the rent in the intervening years, but to ask them for a few hundred more out of the blue is a bit rich - because ultimately a tenancy is NOT like a regular "business" no matter how much some might pretend it is... your "investment" is that person's home, and while you as a LL may feel you've "lost" income (but you haven't - you're still getting exactly what you agreed to), that person will lose their home and the disruption that comes with it.

If you want big returns on your investment you should play the stocks or something, not gamble with people's homes.

Of course what SHOULD happen is annual meetings to discuss the state of play and negotiate any increases at that point, coupled with a long term lease agreement that provides security for both sides AND heavy penalities if either breach it without legitimate cause... but as I always say on this forum, this is Ireland where renting is for "losers" or something to put up with on the glorious road to ownership so it's no wonder that as SP notes above the whole sector is unstable and under-regulated.

April 73

Check daft for current rents in your area. The RTB levels aren't an accurate reflection of current rents.

The_Conductor

What April has said is very true- the RTB rates are complete and utter bullshít- you need to look at DAFT or similar to find what the actual rates are.

If you've been there for 6 years- and haven't had an increase in that time- I'm sorry- much as none of us like having to pay extra for things- the increase was long overdue.

What I'd suggest- and indeed encourage you to do- is contact the landlord. Acknowledge the letter he has sent you. Advise him- that while you'd love to remain his tenants, that you have an excellent relationship with him, and you think he can see you have been good tenants thus far- unfortunately the 200 a month extra is a bridge you're simply not in a position to cross- would he consider meeting you half way.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in negotiating with him- but for crying out loud- make sure what you agree on is sustainable and is a level you are willing to pay for the foreseeable.

Wholly aside from what the going rate is locally- the bigger issue is a complete and utter lack of supply. I've a colleague who recently let a property in Lucan- he got over 70 queries the evening he put the add up on DAFT (and left his phone turned off the following day- even after he yanked the add- and hadn't had any viewings..........)

Supply is a massive issue- even if there are properties in the vicinity- in your price range- there is absolutely no reason to believe that you'll get one of them- landlords are snowed under in prospective tenants. It really is worth your while trying to make a case and finding a middle ground with your current landlord- if you're able to come to a mutually agreeable compromise.

Talk to your landlord ASAP.

handlemaster

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's not very helpful, but not surprising on this forum either.

I dunno... LL's (rightly) complain about tenants who wreck the place, cause complaints from neighbours, or who don't pay rent, or who skip out before the lease is up, and then you have situations like the OP who from the sounds of it is exactly what LL's say they want - reliable, long term (ie: that income you're talking about is stable and predictable), and who never bother their LL for anything - and yet they still can't win and should be fine with having their rent randomly hiked with the minimum required notice (if even that).

It's not the tenant's fault that the LL didn't gradually increase the rent in the intervening years, but to ask them for a few hundred more out of the blue is a bit rich - because ultimately a tenancy is NOT like a regular "business" no matter how much some might pretend it is... your "investment" is that person's home, and while you as a LL may feel you've "lost" income (but you haven't - you're still getting exactly what you agreed to), that person will lose their home and the disruption that comes with it.

If you want big returns on your investment you should play the stocks or something, not gamble with people's homes.

Of course what SHOULD happen is annual meetings to discuss the state of play and negotiate any increases at that point, coupled with a long term lease agreement that provides security for both sides AND heavy penalities if either breach it without legitimate cause... but as I always say on this forum, this is Ireland where renting is for "losers" or something to put up with on the glorious road to ownership so it's no wonder that as SP notes above the whole sector is unstable and under-regulated.

Rent is hardly out of the blue . The OP has enjoyed as they say 6 years of low rent. The LL has done more than his share of supporting a low income tenant. The property belongs to the LL as it was when the OP originally rented first day. The LL is entitled to do with it as he wishes.

It is an investment for the LL and he /she has been very nice to this tenant. Step up and fork out for the OP if you so wish.

Garrett81

If this increase isn't included in your original tenancy agreement, he cannot raise your rent period. . Especially if has only provided this info verbally. Get on to Threshold they have an info call centre based in cork, and will confirm this.

athtrasna

Garrett81 wrote: »

If this increase isn't included in your original tenancy agreement, he cannot raise your rent period. . Especially if has only provided this info verbally. Get on to Threshold they have an info call centre based in cork, and will confirm this.

Absolutely not true. Please check your facts.

Grolschevik

handlemaster wrote:

The OP has enjoyed as they say 6 years of low rent. The LL has done more than his share of supporting a low income tenant.

I don't think we can unequivocally say that the rent was "low" for six years. At most we can say that it was lowER than that which the landlord wishes now to charge, and we can only assume that that reflects market rates.

Nor can we really make any assumptions about "supporting low income tenants". Who knows what the income and outgoings might be?

_Kaiser_

handlemaster wrote: »

Rent is hardly out of the blue . The OP has enjoyed as they say 6 years of low rent. The LL has done more than his share of supporting a low income tenant. The property belongs to the LL as it was when the OP originally rented first day. The LL is entitled to do with it as he wishes.

It is an investment for the LL and he /she has been very nice to this tenant. Step up and fork out for the OP if you so wish.

And what about a LL who has had pretty much nothing to do except spend the money they received every month for the past 6 years? What was that worth?

The LL has been "supporting" no-one.. The OP has being paying the rent that was agreed. The LL was happy with that amount until now so that point is just ridiculous.

Yes the LL can do as they wish, but they may find that the €200 they want may cost them a lot more in the long run if the OP does leave

snowgal

Thanks all. Just a few things. When we began renting we were paying well over the rent prices in the area at the time but we really liked the house so we went for it. That is why there has been no increase and not because it was 'below market rent' or that were low income rent. Up until last year I would say we were still paying over the average. The only reason they are increasing the rent now is because they can as the demand in this area far exceeds supply. There is only one place for rent on daft and it is priced at what they are asking us to increase to. I understand of course that if they're going to get more money elsewhere they're going to ask! It's just annoying as we are good tenants and there's not much we can do as that's what's happened in this country. I'm going to reply anyway and see what they say. Hopefully they'll negotiate with us

quadrifoglio verde

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And what about a LL who has had pretty much nothing to do except spend the money they received every month for the past 6 years? What was that worth?

The LL has been "supporting" no-one.. The OP has being paying the rent that was agreed. The LL was happy with that amount until now so that point is just ridiculous.

Yes the LL can do as they wish, but they may find that the €200 they want may cost you a lot more in the long run if the OP does leave

Perhaps if the op decides to move, the landlord will charge 400 per month extra over the ops current rate.
Perhaps he's done his research, seen that he can get more per month and thought, I like my tenants, I won't increase it by 400, I'll only increase it by 200. 6 years ago, my parents struggled to get 900 for an apartment in managing. Today they're getting 1500.
That rate went up to 1100 in 2014, as they liked the tenants but when they left in 2015, that's what they got offered
They offered it to me for 1300 :rolleyes:

Sad Professor

snowgal wrote: »

Thanks all. Just a few things. When we began renting we were paying well over the rent prices in the area at the time but we really liked the house so we went for it. That is why there has been no increase and not because it was 'below market rent' or that were low income rent. Up until last year I would say we were still paying over the average. The only reason they are increasing the rent now is because they can as the demand in this area far exceeds supply. There is only one place for rent on daft and it is priced at what they are asking us to increase to. I understand of course that if they're going to get more money elsewhere they're going to ask! It's just annoying as we are good tenants and there's not much we can do as that's what's happened in this country. I'm going to reply anyway and see what they say. Hopefully they'll negotiate with us

If you believe the proposed rent increase is above the market rate you can open a dispute with the RTB. Under recent changes to the Residential Tenancies Act, the landord must justify any proposed rent increase with reference to 3 similar properties in the area which have recently been advertised. Your landlord should have done this in his letter to you, which from the sounds of it he didn't.

But as others have said, you should try speaking to the landlord first.

jimmycrackcorm

_Kaiser_ wrote:

Yes the LL can do as they wish, but they may find that the €200 they want may cost them a lot more in the long run if the OP does leave

The LL might also find that he can rent to good tenants and get an extra 2400 pa which would be very good in the long run.

<mod snip: let's avoid generalisations please>

GGTrek

"If you believe the proposed rent increase is above the market rate you can open a dispute with the RTB."
As a landlord may I suggest you to try to avoid at all costs the RTB route for rent increase dispute, that is so easily suggested in this forum. You are effectively declaring war/suing your landlord. Not very convenient for a good business relationship. It is going to cause so much hassle to your landlord that he will kick you out at the first opportunity no matter the money even if he wins the dispute. Remember that you have only two years left on your lease and he might want to check on you more often to verify lease breaks.

handlemaster

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

And what about a LL who has had pretty much nothing to do except spend the money they received every month for the past 6 years? What was that worth?

The LL has been "supporting" no-one.. The OP has being paying the rent that was agreed. The LL was happy with that amount until now so that point is just ridiculous.

Yes the LL can do as they wish, but they may find that the €200 they want may cost them a lot more in the long run if the OP does leave

The LL has charged under the market rent its supporting the tenant. In your logic the LL could ask revenue for reduced taxes as he is a good business man paying his taxes. He could also ask the bank for reduced interest rate as he is a good customer and pays his interest.

Ms Doubtfire1

<snip> Op, 2 things: Do dispute the increase-it's your right and if LL is charging above the market, he's in the wrong. secondly, you are 6 years in the property, which brings you 2 years into your second cycle of part4. he's going to have a hell of a time cancelling the lease on you if you don't accept the rent increase. Try to keep it amical, but don't support any greed.

_Kaiser_

handlemaster wrote: »

The LL has charged under the market rent its supporting the tenant. In your logic the LL could ask revenue for reduced taxes as he is a good business man paying his taxes. He could also ask the bank for reduced interest rate as he is a good customer and pays his interest.

I think you need to reread the OP's subsequent posts.

They were paying over the odds to start with (but did so because they liked the house) and it's only recently that the rents of other houses in the area have come up to the same price - although the OP mentions that there's only one other property listed at the new proposed rent.

So again, the LL has lost nothing, been subsidising no one, and been doing no one a favour as you're suggesting - If anything the OP has been the one subsiding and looking after them.

Ms Doubtfire1

GGTrek wrote: »

"If you believe the proposed rent increase is above the market rate you can open a dispute with the RTB."
As a landlord may I suggest you to try to avoid at all costs the RTB route for rent increase dispute, that is so easily suggested in this forum. You are effectively declaring war/suing your landlord. Not very convenient for a good business relationship. It is going to cause so much hassle to your landlord that he will kick you out at the first opportunity no matter the money even if he wins the dispute. Remember that you have only two years left on your lease and he might want to check on you more often to verify lease breaks.

I have to add: this really really annoys me. It sounds close to bullying and I would NEVER accept that from a LL.

intheclouds

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

I have to add: this really really annoys me. It sounds close to bullying and I would NEVER accept that from a LL.

You would never accept that a LL legally terminates a lease?

While I appreciate the OPs position, if there hasnt been a rent increase in 6 years then it is hard to understand why this is such a stretch. Once the increase is in place the LL cant increase again for another 2 years.

There is absolutely nothing stopping the OP from shopping around and finding somewhere with a rent that they find more palatable.

Ms Doubtfire1

intheclouds wrote: »

You would never accept that a LL legally terminates a lease?

While I appreciate the OPs position, if there hasnt been a rent increase in 6 years then it is hard to understand why this is such a stretch. Once the increase is in place the LL cant increase again for another 2 years.

There is absolutely nothing stopping the OP from shopping around and finding somewhere with a rent that they find more palatable.

if a LL terminates lease legally,grand. If a LL shows up constantly and starts making a ruckus because a tenant executes his or her rights, not acceptable.If LL changes his/her behavior due to a denied increase of the rent (or disputed) he'd have a hell of a problem with me. Tenant has paid well over market rate the past 4 years, raising the rent again to 200 over market rate without the appropiate - as per threshold:
As per may 06.2016:
landlord is seeking to reviewing the rent:

They must provide you with at least three comparable rents of similar properties in your area which have been advertised in the previous four weeks to your review
The written review must also advise you that if you wish to dispute the review you can refer a case to the RTB.


is simply unacceptable.That is the law. Any behavior outside the law like this is not acceptable.Given the fact that the tenants have been good tenants, just not willing to be milked, i'm sure they won't have a problem if LL comes in legally allowed intervals to check on the property

The op has already stated its a high demand area and only one property has come up for rent recently. How is a LL supposed to come up with 3 in the last few weeks. I would having one would be enough if it came down to it.

As an aside am in the only one who thinks 100 euro each a month while not a small increase shouldn't be an unaffordable one for a couple renting? I'd worry about how you would afford a big unexpected expense if 100 euro extra a month puts you in such a tight situation, maybe the rent is already out of your budget? I'm not saying it's not a pain in the ass having to pay more rent by the way but a LL is entitled to maximise his income from a rental property.

intheclouds

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

Tenant has paid well over market rate the past 4 years, raising the rent again to 200 over market rate.....

You must be reading a different thread than me:

snowgal wrote: »

When we began renting we were paying well over the rent prices in the area at the time but we really liked the house so we went for it.....Up until last year I would say we were still paying over the average.....There is only one place for rent on daft and it is priced at what they are asking us to increase to.

According to the OP it was over the average until last year (bit subjective tbh and if what is currently advertised matches the increase that the LL is asking for then probably incorrect).

Now the LL is trying to bring it in line with current rate - which will be out of date in a matter of months given the current rental market - and the LL wont be able to raise it for 2 years.

Personally speaking I would end the lease in 2 years also if there was this level of kickback over one rent increase in 8 years.

steddyeddy

Axl Substantial Shower wrote: »

The op has already stated its a high demand area and only one property has come up for rent recently. How is a LL supposed to come up with 3 in the last few weeks. I would having one would be enough if it came down to it.

As an aside am in the only one who thinks 100 euro each a month while annoying is not an increase that should be unaffordable. I'd worry about how you would afford a big unexpected expense if 100 euro extra a month puts you in such a tight situation, maybe the rent is already out of your budget? I'm not saying it's not a pain in the ass having to pay more rent by the way.

100 a month extra is 1200 a year which is a big deal.