Since when did God start controlling the outcome of boxing matches

sbsquarepants

Swanner wrote: »

This very much depends on your definition of religion..

Do you mean religion as a prescriptive set of rules for worship of a deity or do you mean any kind of worship of a deity ?

If there's no prescriptive set of rules what would classify it as a religion? They all have a list of thou shalts and thou shalt nots - it's just some people quite remarkably think they are somehow entitled to all manner of exemptions.

It's a weird one, I actually find it easier to understand the fundamentalists - "this is gods word, don't you dare question it and make sure you follow it to the letter" - they at least really "believe" what they're saying. They may well be bat shít crazy, but at least I can follow their thought processes.

It's the laissez faire types I have real trouble understanding - "I believe the divine creator of the universe left this to do list for me, but I'm actually only going to bother doing a fraction of the things he demands because, well, just because. Also I'm going to freely indulge in all manner of things he has forbidden. I mean sure he says he'll punish me for it, but I don't think he will" - now that way of thinking I just cannot comprehend.

I'd go so far as to say if you're not really, really devout, you don't really believe - you just haven't allowed your conscious mind to accept that fact. Basically you're almost certainly just in denial.

robindch

georgewickstaff wrote: »

I wish he'd intervene and UNCIVIL TEXT DELETED.

georgewickstaff has been carded for posting contra the forum charter.

robindch

Giacomo McGubbin wrote: »

It's seems the real sin Katie committed as far as some Stalinists are concerned is she dared to mention the word God.

"Stalinists"?

The Bishop Basher

sbsquarepants wrote: »

If there's no prescriptive set of rules what would classify it as a religion? They all have a list of thou shalts and thou shalt nots

Fair enough. It is of course more then possible to believe in a deity without being religious but it seems we agree that "religion" involves a group of people that subscribe to a set of rules and / or beliefs.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

It's the laissez faire types I have real trouble understanding - "I believe the divine creator of the universe left this to do list for me, but I'm actually only going to bother doing a fraction of the things he demands because, well, just because. Also I'm going to freely indulge in all manner of things he has forbidden. I mean sure he says he'll punish me for it, but I don't think he will" - now that way of thinking I just cannot comprehend.

If you mean a believer who subscribes to a religion but ignore the rules of that religion then i would agree and don't really get them either but that said, i'm not them, i don't have to reconcile those beliefs in my head and i don't have to live their lives so i don't need to understand them. Live and let live..

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'd go so far as to say if you're not really, really devout, you don't really believe - you just haven't allowed your conscious mind to accept that fact. Basically you're almost certainly just in denial.

Thats blatantly incorrect and wildly assumptive. It's exactly the same as a theist stating that there's no such thing as a real atheist which is also clearly nonsense.

FA Hayek

The more things change the more things stay the same, but some times with less traffic.

meeeeh

I didn't bother reading the whole thread (I have to pretend I'm working every so often) and I don't particularly like Taylor because of her religious views but this smells of kicking someone when they are down.

She advertises her beliefs in just about any interview she does including the one after London win. It's strikes me as little cowardly to wait until someone isn't as successful anymore and then criticize their beliefs. Apologies if someone else already made similar point.

sbsquarepants

Swanner wrote: »

Thats blatantly incorrect and wildly assumptive. It's exactly the same as a theist stating that there's no such thing as a real atheist which is also clearly nonsense.

Ah I don't mean that in an aggressive kind of way, I'm certainly no militant atheist or anything like that - I got my own kids christened for the sake of an easy life with schools and one set of religious grandparents.

But if you take it to it's logical conclusion, if you claim to be a member of a certain religion, but you're not devout - what you are really saying is that you know better than your god, you don't need to follow this rule or that rule even though your god clearly says you do.

If you think that, you clearly do not accept the omnipotence of god, you just can't have it both ways. If you believed it, you'd follow it. If you don't follow it, you can't honestly claim to believe it.

As for the type of "I'm not religious but i'm spiritual" stuff you hear a lot of these days, what does that even mean? To my mind it means "I believe in something, but I don't know what" If you don't know what it is, how can you possibly believe in it - that's just meaningless shít.

The Bishop Basher

sbsquarepants wrote: »

But if you take it to it's logical conclusion, if you claim to be a member of a certain religion, but you're not devout - what you are really saying is that you know better than your god, you don't need to follow this rule or that rule even though your god clearly says you do.

If you think that, you clearly do not accept the omnipotence of god, you just can't have it both ways. If you believed it, you'd follow it. If you don't follow it, you can't honestly claim to believe it.

That would be quite a fundamentalist approach...

As you know, most people of faith would approach it from a more middle of the road perspective. They don't get overly hung up on the nitty gritty of their religion at all. They just try and live good lives and get through as unscathed as possible. Same as all of us really.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

As for the type of "I'm not religious but i'm spiritual" stuff you hear a lot of these days, what does that even mean? To my mind it means "I believe in something, but I don't know what" If you don't know what it is, how can you possibly believe in it - that's just meaningless shít.

That's one way of looking at it.. probably not how those of spiritual persuasion view it but sure each to their own..

sbsquarepants

Swanner wrote: »

That would be quite a fundamentalist approach...

As you know, most people of faith would approach it from a more middle of the road perspective. They don't get overly hung up on the nitty gritty of their religion at all. They just try and live good lives and get through as unscathed as possible. Same as all of us really. ..

I understand, but I actually think that's because most "people of faith" as you call them, haven't really given it much thought. You tend to just accept a lot of the stuff your told as a kid, it just kind of seeps in and helps form the person you become as an adult. It can be extremely hard to get it out again!
The majority of people are not all that keen on or good at introspection. Put simply most people just don't question their "beliefs" probably because you tend to end up with uncomfortable answers, that force you to question yourself further. Some people just don't like to figure stuff out, they like to be told the answers. Plus a lot of people actually use "I believe" and "I would like" as if they're interchangeable.

It's hard to say this stuff without sounding condescending and making people all defensive, which is not my intention, but if you think of it logically, it is the truth. Therein lies the problem, uncomfortable truths tend to be ignored by an awfull lot of people. We tend to see what we want to see.

If the answer to the question "why do you believe....."? is I don't know, I just do, every one knows that's the case or any variation on that theme - then you don't really believe it - you just clearly haven't ever really thought about it much and have defaulted to some theory or other you came into contact with, most likely as a child, and labelled it "what I believe"

Swanner wrote: »

That's one way of looking at it.. probably not how those of spiritual persuasion view it but sure each to their own..

In the immortal words of John Lennon - "whatever gets you through the night, that's alright"
Who the hell am I to argue with him:D

But......just don't go claiming it's some deeply held core belief which is somehow deserving of respect if you can't even point to what exactly that belief even is, let alone offer some form of proof as to it's veracity.

NIMAN

"I thank the Lord for giving me the strength to batter the head off my opponent".

Pherekydes

He controls 100m medals, too:

I just want to give God thanks. He works miracles no matter what the outcome.
I just want to say thanks to everyone who has been supporting me. It has been a tough road and I am happy I am injury free and I can compete again.
God doesn't give us more than we can bear. We shall run and not go weary. We shall walk and not go faint. For the Lord goes before us and his joy will be our strength. I will never lose faith no matter what the circumstance is, no matter what happens. God is always by my side.
I do not have any excuse or complaint. It just wasn't to happen. And I am waiting on God. So anyway thanks for all the support and I just want to wish all my teammates all the best in the finals. Thank you!

That was posted by Yohan Blake after he was beaten by notorious two-time doper, Justin Gatlin to the silver medal. I guess God loves sinners.

jcd5971

I get this is an atheism forum, but why do so many atheists feel the need to knock anyone who shows a bit of faith?

learn_more

jcd5971 wrote: »

I get this is an atheism forum, but why do so many atheists feel the need to knock anyone who shows a bit of faith?

No idea. Very odd thing for an atheist to do.

looksee

jcd5971 wrote: »

I get this is an atheism forum, but why do so many atheists feel the need to knock anyone who shows a bit of faith?

Bit of faith in what?

Qs

jcd5971 wrote: »

I get this is an atheism forum, but why do so many atheists feel the need to knock anyone who shows a bit of faith?

Why is it considered "bashing" to ask how an athlete reconciles the idea of god intervening on their wins and losses but not on more critical matters of life, death and suffering? Or how they balance the idea of god wanting them to win with their own incredible efforts in training, etc?

Are these not genuine questions we can ask?

Pherekydes

jcd5971 wrote: »

I get this is an atheism forum, but why do so many atheists feel the need to knock anyone who shows a bit of faith?

I'm not knocking Mr Blake; I just posted his own words and a few facts alongside. Everyone then draws their own conclusions.

The Bishop Basher

Qs wrote: »

Why is it considered "bashing" to ask how an athlete reconciles the idea of god intervening on their wins and losses but not on more critical matters of life, death and suffering?

Because frankly it's no one else's business but hers.. She may or may not reconcile it in her head. Either way, who cares ? It's her belief and hers alone..

I think the issue is also in the way it's done. I have plenty of atheist friends. Not one of them would ever knock, belittle, put down or mock those of faith in the way in which it's done with increasing regularity both here and on the Christianity forum. They may disagree with others beliefs and challenge their views in a respectful way but ultimately they will just respect that difference and move on.

Likewise even with the few born again Christians i've met. I've never found them to be even remotely as judgmental, preachy or downright abusive as some atheists on here can be.

I completely understand the contempt atheists have for religion. I can even understand why the feel superior and more intelligent. I don't agree with it but i can understand it. What i don't understand is the absolute contempt atheists have for those who follow religion. You have no idea what hardships and battles those people have fought or are fighting in their lives.

Intolerance is intolerance with or without a God. Just live and let live folks. Makes for a much more pleasant experience for all..

looksee

Swanner wrote: »

Because frankly it's no one else's business but hers.. She may or may not reconcile it in her head. Either way, who cares ? It's her belief and hers alone..

I think the issue is also in the way it's done. I have plenty of atheist friends. Not one of them would ever knock, belittle, put down or mock those of faith in the way in which it's done with increasing regularity both here and on the Christianity forum. They may disagree with others beliefs and challenge their views in a respectful way but ultimately they will just respect that difference and move on.

Likewise even with the few born again Christians i've met. I've never found them to be even remotely as judgmental, preachy or downright abusive as some atheists on here can be.

I completely understand the contempt atheists have for religion. I can even understand why the feel superior and more intelligent. I don't agree with it but i can understand it. What i don't understand is the absolute contempt atheists have for those who follow religion. You have no idea what hardships and battles those people have fought or are fighting in their lives.

Intolerance is intolerance with or without a God. Just live and let live folks. Makes for a much more pleasant experience for all..

I think this is overstating the situation a bit. I have religious friends and I do not criticise their beliefs, even in a discussion I will tiptoe around the topic. I have a friend who is from Texas and buys in to all the nonsense preached there, but I keep my opinions (mostly) to myself.

However this is a discussion forum and further it is the A&A forum. Why would we not discuss these matters robustly. If you don't want to be offended, stay in the Christian forum!

robindch

Swanner wrote: »

Intolerance is intolerance with or without a God. Just live and let live folks. Makes for a much more pleasant experience for all..

Couldn't agree more - and when religious people stop interfering negatively in the lives of so many people around the world for religious reasons, I'm sure people will stop complaining about religion.

The Bishop Basher

looksee wrote: »

I think this is overstating the situation a bit. I have religious friends and I do not criticise their beliefs, even in a discussion I will tiptoe around the topic. I have a friend who is from Texas and buys in to all the nonsense preached there, but I keep my opinions (mostly) to myself.

But I was making the point in relation to this forum. I never thought for a second that people from here go round telling people in the real world that they have mental issues, that they're child abusers or that they're of lower intelligence.

It's a shame though that you feel you have to go to the other extreme and tip toe around your friends. I would never shy way from discussing these matters should they arise but only when it's done respectfully.

looksee wrote: »

However this is a discussion forum and further it is the A&A forum. Why would we not discuss these matters robustly. If you don't want to be offended, stay in the Christian forum!

I'm not in the slightest bit offended and i've no problem whatsoever with robust debate. Not sure why you'd think otherwise. I do tread carefully here as it can be an antagonistic place for anyone who doesn't conform to the group think but as the subject is of interest to me i do continue to read and post from time to time.

You suggest I stay in the christian forum as if it's where I belong but tbh I spend very little time there. In fact i spend a lot less time there then a significant cohort of atheists who advance their agenda on every single thread to the point where you could be forgiven for thinking you we're in A&A. In the end it becomes just more of the same. Only difference being there's a bunch of frustrated christians thrown in for good measure. Is what it is but it gets repetitive.

robindch wrote: »

Couldn't agree more - and when religious people stop interfering negatively in the lives of so many people around the world for religious reasons, I'm sure people will stop complaining about religion.

I think you missed my point. I have no issue with anyone complaining about religion. I have no time for religion myself so i get the complaints. What i don't get however, is how that justifies the all too common attacks and abuse directed at individuals for their personal beliefs. The personal and derogatory nature of some of those attacks is completely unjustified in my view. The silence of ALL other posters indicates consent and support. I don't care how morally superior and righteous you think you are.. Calling someone else unintelligent because they hold different beliefs is wrong. Plain and simple. These individuals are not your enemy. Religious bodies and the states that support them are. Stop going after the soft targets and direct your rage at those who deserve it.

I also think that the influence religion has on the lives of individuals is wildly overplayed on this forum. With the exception of school enrolment policies, which are being dealt with, religion will only really effect your life if you let it. As a 42 year old dad of 2 teenage children, it has zero effect on my life or that of my family. Zero. Yet for some strange reason it appears to influence every passing moment of an atheists life. Maybe it's part confirmation bias, maybe it's manifestation but honestly, the less time and energy you give it, the less it will bother you.

looksee

Swanner wrote: »

But I was making the point in relation to this forum. I never thought for a second that people from here go round telling people in the real world that they have mental issues, that they're child abusers or that they're of lower intelligence.

It's a shame though that you feel you have to go to the other extreme and tip toe around your friends. I would never shy way from discussing these matters should they arise but only when it's done respectfully.



I'm not in the slightest bit offended and i've no problem whatsoever with robust debate. Not sure why you'd think otherwise. I do tread carefully here as it can be an antagonistic place for anyone who doesn't conform to the group think but as the subject is of interest to me i do continue to read and post from time to time.

You suggest I stay in the christian forum as if it's where I belong but tbh I spend very little time there. In fact i spend a lot less time there then a significant cohort of atheists who advance their agenda on every single thread to the point where you could be forgiven for thinking you we're in A&A. In the end it becomes just more of the same. Only difference being there's a bunch of frustrated christians thrown in for good measure. Is what it is but it gets repetitive.



I think you missed my point. I have no issue with anyone complaining about religion. I have no time for religion myself so i get the complaints. What i don't get however, is how that justifies the all too common attacks and abuse directed at individuals for their personal beliefs. The personal and derogatory nature of some of those attacks is completely unjustified in my view. The silence of ALL other posters indicates consent and support. I don't care how morally superior and righteous you think you are.. Calling someone else unintelligent because they hold different beliefs is wrong. Plain and simple. These individuals are not your enemy. Religious bodies and the states that support them are. Stop going after the soft targets and direct your rage at those who deserve it.

I also think that the influence religion has on the lives of individuals is wildly overplayed on this forum. With the exception of school enrolment policies, which are being dealt with, religion will only really effect your life if you let it. As a 42 year old dad of 2 teenage children, it has zero effect on my life or that of my family. Zero. Yet for some strange reason it appears to influence every passing moment of an atheists life. Maybe it's part confirmation bias, maybe it's manifestation but honestly, the less time and energy you give it, the less it will bother you.

I don't think anyone is missing the point. The only reason we are here (in A&A) is to give us opportunity to discuss/ criticise/ explore the aspect of life that is alien to us - religion. Of course there will be some people with extreme anti religion views, just the same as there are people with extreme pro-religion views in Christianity. Both those extremes can probably be discarded in the search for rational discussion, but you are always going to have extreme views.

I tiptoe around people in real life because I was not always atheist, and understand the mind set. I came to live in a religion-based society (Ireland) 47 years ago, and have learned that facing into people's cultural beliefs on my own is a waste of time. For a quiet life I let them get on with it.

A lot of the time it has much more to do with culture than religion.

However I can express my opinions here, and do not see any reason to hold back, short of abuse and, I hope, bigotry. People are entitled to believe anything they wish, and I am entitled to not believe those things. There are newspapers, magazines, website, grand buildings, an employed (if diminishing) army of people, all promoting religious belief, which at times seeps into the lives of people who do not believe.

On the atheist side there is very little - almost no - structure. What there is is voluntary. There is little more than discussion groups such as this one. It is not structured atheism that is undermining religion, it is growing disillusionment and lack of interest and relevance.

The Bishop Basher

looksee wrote: »

A lot of the time it has much more to do with culture than religion.

I certainly agree with this. Growing up as part of religious minority (CoI) in Ireland, this was very apparent. I was told many times over the years that I couldn't be Irish and protestant Having spent years identifying as atheist I also get that view point. The RC religion is deeply ingrained in Irish culture much to it's detriment. But thankfully that's changing and witnessing my kids and their peers show such total indifference to it all gives me great hope for the future.

looksee wrote: »

However I can express my opinions here, and do not see any reason to hold back, short of abuse and, I hope, bigotry.

To be fair looksee, I may disagree with you at times but i've never found you abusive or intolerant. Hence we can discuss it rationally.

looksee wrote: »

People are entitled to believe anything they wish, and I am entitled to not believe those things. There are newspapers, magazines, website, grand buildings, an employed (if diminishing) army of people, all promoting religious belief, which at times seeps into the lives of people who do not believe.

Agreed. I just don't believe it happens to the extent that many claim it does on this forum. I grew up literally surrounded by religion. My father and both my uncles are clergymen so I still am surrounded by it. Yet it plays absolutely no part in my life whatsoever. Point being, if I can keep it out of my life, anyone can.

looksee wrote: »

On the atheist side there is very little - almost no - structure. What there is is voluntary. There is little more than discussion groups such as this one. It is not structured atheism that is undermining religion, it is growing disillusionment and lack of interest and relevance.

Again, i agree with you. But i do think atheism needs to be careful not to fall into the same pitfalls regarding intolerance to other beliefs as religion has over the years. There can be an intolerant edge to this forum at times that makes me very uncomfortable. I understand where the anger comes from but it doesn't make it right. The deafening silence from the more reasonable posters when it happens also speaks volumes. I would be every bit as uncomfortable if it was a religious intolerance and that was really all i was trying to say..

Hotblack Desiato

Swanner wrote: »

I completely understand the contempt atheists have for religion. I can even understand why the feel superior and more intelligent. I don't agree with it but i can understand it. What i don't understand is the absolute contempt atheists have for those who follow religion. You have no idea what hardships and battles those people have fought or are fighting in their lives.

Intolerance is intolerance with or without a God. Just live and let live folks. Makes for a much more pleasant experience for all..

Swanner wrote: »

I also think that the influence religion has on the lives of individuals is wildly overplayed on this forum. With the exception of school enrolment policies, which are being dealt with,

School enrolment issues are not being dealt with. Current policies will perpetuate discrimination against non-catholics for decades to come.

religion will only really effect your life if you let it. As a 42 year old dad of 2 teenage children, it has zero effect on my life or that of my family. Zero.

You have heard of the Eighth Amendment I take it?

The Bishop Basher

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

If you think the manner, tone and content of what I've posted is comparable to the superior attitude of some one who claims to be more intelligent because of their lack of belief then you've missed the point completely while illustrating it perfectly.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

School enrolment issues are not being dealt with. Current policies will perpetuate discrimination against non-catholics for decades to come.

We'll agree to disagree but they are and they will. These things take time.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You have heard of the Eighth Amendment I take it?

Ah so you're also making the mistake of assuming that everyone opposing abortion is some right wing religious nut. Good luck with that. This issue goes way beyond religion. Way way beyond.

mickoneill31

Swanner wrote: »

Because frankly it's no one else's business but hers.. She may or may not reconcile it in her head. Either way, who cares ? It's her belief and hers alone..

It's not no one's business but hers. She's making it public by praising god or saying it's god decision after she loses. It's fine for her to have faith. If she discusses her faith publicly then so can we.

Its her belief and she can believe what she wants. If she brings it to a public forum then why can't we discuss it? Nobody is trying interfere with her faith.

The Bishop Basher

mickoneill31 wrote: »

Its her belief and she can believe what she wants. If she brings it to a public forum then why can't we discuss it? Nobody is trying interfere with her faith.

Once again, I see no issue whatsoever with people discussing it. I've no idea why you think I said otherwise. Maybe you could point where you got that from what i said and we can clear up the confusion.

What I do have an issue with however is when someone is publicly put down, slagged off, belittled etc because of their personally held beliefs. She's not judging you. Why do you think it's ok to judge her ?

looksee

I have an issue with a journalist sticking a microphone in the face of someone who has just lost a match that they trained for and put all their energy and purpose into and asking them how they feel.

Hotblack Desiato

looksee wrote: »

I have an issue with a journalist sticking a microphone in the face of someone who has just lost a match that they trained for and put all their energy and purpose into and asking them how they feel.

I remember about 20 years ago RTE did the same thing to a distressed looking Sonia O'Sullivan after a race, she didn't start going on about god though - and Taylor does that constantly, win or lose. It's her right to do so but I don't have to like it or pretend I like it.

Swanner wrote: »

If you think the manner, tone and content of what I've posted is comparable to the superior attitude of some one who claims to be more intelligent because of their lack of belief then you've missed the point completely while illustrating it perfectly.

It comes across as quite superior.
Can you point out any post of mine which has made claims as to intelligence?

We'll agree to disagree but they are and they will. These things take time.

There's a difference between something taking time and something being fobbed off, and it's definitely the latter.
Religious discrimination in enrolment could be banned tomorrow, if the government desired to do so. Patronage change is not necessary to do this.

Ah so you're also making the mistake of assuming that everyone opposing abortion is some right wing religious nut. Good luck with that. This issue goes way beyond religion. Way way beyond.

So I keep hearing, but it's always the usual god botherers at the forefront of the anti-choice movement.
The real point is this though - we would never have had the 8th amendment were it not for an alliance between RCC pulpit power and US fundie cash.

mickoneill31

Swanner wrote: »

Once again, I see no issue whatsoever with people discussing it. I've no idea why you think I said otherwise. Maybe you could point where you got that from what i said and we can clear up the confusion.

What I do have an issue with however is when someone is publicly put down, slagged off, belittled etc because of their personally held beliefs. She's not judging you. Why do you think it's ok to judge her ?

Calm down there. The first paragraph that you didn't quote was a reply to you. The second paragraph isn't to do with you and didn't mention you at all. Don't take offence so easily.

Then, to use your methodology back on you can you point out where I said it was OK to judge her.

The Bishop Basher

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I remember about 20 years ago RTE did the same thing to a distressed looking Sonia O'Sullivan after a race, she didn't start going on about god though - and Taylor does that constantly, win or lose. It's her right to do so but I don't have to like it or pretend I like it.

Absolutely, although why it bothers you is beyond me. I don't care either way. I only care once people start to get personal and abusive about it as happens here from time to time.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It comes across as quite superior.
Can you point out any post of mine which has made claims as to intelligence?

I never suggested you had made those claims. My point was that they are regularly made on this forum and no one bats an eye lid. If suggesting that people act in a civil manner towards each other and respect each others beliefs or lack of makes me sound superior then so be it. We have a different view on what it means clearly. That's ok. I'll always be happy to opt for respect over abuse.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

There's a difference between something taking time and something being fobbed off, and it's definitely the latter.
Religious discrimination in enrolment could be banned tomorrow, if the government desired to do so. Patronage change is not necessary to do this.

I agree. It's not happening anywhere near quickly enough. But nothing changes quickly in Ireland. The tide has turned though. The RC church has lost much of its influence and it's only a matter of time before it gets sorted. If you have a way of making it happen tomorrow you have my full support.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

So I keep hearing, but it's always the usual god botherers at the forefront of the anti-choice movement.
The real point is this though - we would never have had the 8th amendment were it not for an alliance between RCC pulpit power and US fundie cash.

Again, agreed and it's a shame because they do the more moderate of those who oppose abortion on demand a disservice. But I'm all on for the referendum and let the people decide. I just don't believe the lines are as clear as many in here like to believe. I could be wrong but we'll find out in due course.