Waterford Mayor on Drug Dealers.

starshine1234

Heroin is not easier to get than alcohol. Perhaps for a very small cohort of people but certainly not for the majority.

Prohibition does stop a very small number of people who don't want to break laws.

Many people are frightened of heroin and wouldn't use it.

But if it was fully legal and easy to get then I feel many more would try it than do currently. Drugs are good fun and so people may become addicted even if they didn't intend to.



If the drugs under legalisation are tightly controlled then the criminals can step in and sell to everybody.
The whole point of legalisation would be to make the drugs available outside of the criminal network. Make it too onerous to get drugs and you will have failed.

Suryavarman

Anybody that wants to get drugs can get them. The only people that have difficulty getting drugs are the ones that have no interest in taking them.

Also, LOL at thinking cocaine is the most dangerous drug or that ecstasy is a substitute for cocaine.

starshine1234

That simply isn't true.

I'd purchase drugs if I knew any drug dealers. I don't.


What drug is more dangerous than cocaine?
Tobacco is it?

Stop making silly teasing statements and actually make a point. What drug is more dangerous from a medical point of view than cocaine?

starshine1234

Cocaine is the most dangerous of the 'normal' drugs.

I am talking about correct use and not considering the ease of overdosing.

I am not talking about drugs like Krokodil or other new drugs.

Between alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, heroin, weed, E, GHB, mushrooms the most dangerous are alcohol, tobacco and cocaine.

Suryavarman

starshine1234 wrote: »

That simply isn't true.

I'd purchase drugs if I knew any drug dealers. I don't.


What drug is more dangerous than cocaine?
Tobacco is it?

Stop making silly teasing statements and actually make a point. What drug is more dangerous from a medical point of view than cocaine?

Alcohol, crystal meth, crack and heroin are all more harmful than cocaine.

robtri

Suryavarman wrote: »

Alcohol, crystal meth, crack and heroin are all more harmful than cocaine.

interesting graph......

why don't you explain what the red and the blue bars means....

and then explain how you can say earlier that drugs only harm the user.....

starshine1234

But some of the drugs are legal!

And they are harming other people the most!

Alcohol and tobacco!

Alcohol causes immense harm for society. Huge amounts of crime are caused by alcohol. If those alcohol users used E instead crime rates would drop hugely. So would hospital admissions.


Legalised E and cannabis would result in huge public safety benefits. Why doesn't it happen?

I hate our government for their small minded fear of everything. No leadership at all, in Ireland or in Europe really. Our societies are falling apart and yet safe drugs aren't legalised.

Pathetic.

Enda Kenny is a sad pathetic loser.


Heroin is only dangerous for others as it is illegal. Users themselves pose no risk.


If all drugs were legal that graph would be different.

Suryavarman

robtri wrote: »

interesting graph......

why don't you explain what the red and the blue bars means....

and then explain how you can say earlier that drugs only harm the user.....

The red bar refers to crime, economic costs of reduced productivity, environmental damage and loss of relationships.

The only category that makes up the harm to others that can legitimately be considered to be harmful to others and caused by drug use is the environmental damage. Environmental damage only occurs as criminalisation incentivises high intensity farming. The rest of the categories are only as a result of drug abuse and drug criminalisation not drug use.

griffdaddy

griffdaddy wrote: »

.......In fact, do you know the mark up the pharmaceutical companies make on legal drugs?..........

Augeo wrote: »

I work in bio pharma and worked in API previously.
Your question is more or less impossible to answer..........

Suryavarman wrote: »

What exactly is it about working in bio pharma that makes you an expert on the economics of the illicit drugs trade?

Working in the industry was in relation to the mark up on legal drugs not the economics of the illicit drugs trade.

Impossible to answer as patents and generics etc make the variation in markup absolutely huge, several 100% in cases.

robtri

Suryavarman wrote: »

The red bar refers to crime, economic costs of reduced productivity, environmental damage and loss of relationships.

The only category that makes up the harm to others that can legitimately be considered to be harmful to others and caused by drug use is the environmental damage. Environmental damage only occurs as criminalisation incentivises high intensity farming. The rest of the categories are only as a result of drug abuse and drug criminalisation not drug use.

they are tied together ... hence why they are on the chart...
red is damage to others and blue is damage to user....

so if we legalised drugs, you would have no problems then with your kids(if you have any) using meth?? sure they not harming anyone

Johnboy1951

Why do people bring in 'what about the kids' into such discussions?
It is illegal for kids to use alcohol; it would equally be the case with any other legalised, controlled and regulated drug.
What one parent sees as acceptable is not necessarily true for others and is irrelevant in this discussion.

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

Working in the industry was in relation to the mark up on legal drugs not the economics of the illicit drugs trade.

Impossible to answer as patents and generics etc make the variation in markup absolutely huge, several 100% in cases.

You said that drugs would be more expensive if they were legal (they most certainly wouldn't).

robtri wrote: »

they are tied together ... hence why they are on the chart...
red is damage to others and blue is damage to user....

so if we legalised drugs, you would have no problems then with your kids(if you have any) using meth?? sure they not harming anyone

If I had adult children and they wanted to use drugs then I wouldn't have any issue with that no.

robtri

Suryavarman wrote: »

If I had adult children and they wanted to use drugs then I wouldn't have any issue with that no.

well that says it all for me... no arguing with that, a parent who is ok with there kids(i do mean adult kids) using Meth (for example) ....

robtri

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Why do people bring in 'what about the kids' into such discussions?
It is illegal for kids to use alcohol; it would equally be the case with any other legalised, controlled and regulated drug.
What one parent sees as acceptable is not necessarily true for others and is irrelevant in this discussion.

when i say kids I mean kids of a legal age...

Suryavarman

robtri wrote: »

well that says it all for me... no arguing with that, a parent who is ok with there kids(i do mean adult kids) using Meth (for example) ....

Why should I have an issue with my adult son or daughter using meth?

Johnboy1951

robtri wrote: »

when i say kids I mean kids of a legal age...

Ah! So adults!
I expect my adult children to comply with the law of the land, or to be accepting of the consequences if they do not.

My 'job' of influencing them is finished. What they decide is now their choice and my feelings or opinion are mine alone unless asked for.

A_Sober_Paddy

Deaths of Marijuana are zero
Alcohol and Fags kill more than all illegal drugs combined...

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

You said that drugs would be more expensive if they were legal (they most certainly wouldn't). ........

How do you know?
What do you base that on?

Legally sold drugs would need to be made in GMP facilities, packaged, labelled, HPRA approved etc etc.

For a controlled drug to be regulated it would have to be supplied with dosage and safe use instructions, all of which would need to have supporting studies done.

At the moment most controlled drugs need prescription, folks in here are suggesting class A drugs such as cocaine & heroin along with the "harmless" drugs like cannabis & E should be controlled and legalised for recreational use to use in the comfort of their home, harming no one but themselves and some claim they won't even harm themselves.

I can see no way that a small country like ourselves could legalise & control drugs and have them for sale at any way competitive prices compared to current street prices.

We'll never know anyway, thankfully :cool:

A_Sober_Paddy

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Deaths of Marijuana are zero.....

Depression, Paranoia/Anxiety (brought on by marijuana use) never resulted in a death, never, zero deaths?

You know this how?

Smondie

Augeo wrote: »

Suryavarman wrote: »

You said that drugs would be more expensive if they were legal (they most certainly wouldn't). ........

How do you know?
What do you base that on?

Legally sold drugs would need to be made in GMP facilities, packaged, labelled, HPRA approved etc etc.

For a controlled drug to be regulated it would have to be supplied with dosage and safe use instructions, all of which would need to have supporting studies done.

At the moment most controlled drugs need prescription, folks in here are suggesting class A drugs such as cocaine & heroin along with the "harmless" drugs like cannabis & E should be controlled and legalised for recreational use to use in the comfort of their home, harming no one but themselves and some claim they won't even harm themselves.

I can see no way that a small country like ourselves could legalise & control drugs and have them for sale at any way competitive prices compared to current street prices.

We'll never know anyway, thankfully :cool:

The only packaging the weed in Amsterdam comes in is a clear plastic bag, no labels, no gmp facilities. just a dealer and his weighing scales, filling bags


Also interesting to note is that Dutch youth use less weed than thier Irish counterparts.

A_Sober_Paddy

Augeo wrote: »

Depression, Paranoia/Anxiety (brought on by marijuana use) never resulted in a death, never, zero deaths?

You know this how?

it was stated in a channel 4 show about drugs, listing the top 20 deadiliest drug and the effects...think it was called drugs live...

Also in the US prescription drugs killed more in 2009 that illegal drugs, from the movie prescription thugs...

I don't like drugs, but taking the criminality out of them will make the world a safer place...

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

How do you know?
What do you base that on?

Legally sold drugs would need to be made in GMP facilities, packaged, labelled, HPRA approved etc etc.

For a controlled drug to be regulated it would have to be supplied with dosage and safe use instructions, all of which would need to have supporting studies done.

At the moment most controlled drugs need prescription, folks in here are suggesting class A drugs such as cocaine & heroin along with the "harmless" drugs like cannabis & E should be controlled and legalised for recreational use to use in the comfort of their home, harming no one but themselves and some claim they won't even harm themselves.

I can see no way that a small country like ourselves could legalise & control drugs and have them for sale at any way competitive prices compared to current street prices.

We'll never know anyway, thankfully :cool:

A basic knowledge of the economics of the drug industry would show that drugs would be enough to know that you are wrong.

Anywhere that has legalised cannabis has seen a fall in prices even including very high taxes.

Do you really think that a gram of cocaine, that wholesales for around $1 per gram in South America, would really cost more than €100 per gram in Ireland if it was legal? Bear in mind that by the time it reaches the user in Ireland that cocaine has been cut up. What you're claiming is that legalising cocaine would roughly increase its cost 200 fold. A preposterous claim.

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

Depression, Paranoia/Anxiety (brought on by marijuana use) never resulted in a death, never, zero deaths?

You know this how?

Cannabis doesn't cause those issues. It worsens them in people already suffering from them but it doesn't cause them.

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

........ legalising cocaine.......preposterous .......

correct :pac:

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

Cannabis doesn't cause those issues. It worsens them in people already suffering from them but it doesn't cause them.

So worsening these issues has never resulted in death, strong smell of horsesh1t off that theory.

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

A basic knowledge of the economics of the drug industry would show that drugs would be enough to know that you are wrong. .......

Again, you must consider Ireland in isolation as a country attempting to legalise class A drugs, you aren't doing this, you are rabbiting on about countries where cannabis is legalised. Not analgous.

I also don't think you have a basic knowledge of the economics of the drugs industry, you have one or two pieces of info and are attempting to piece them together, unsuccessfully.

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

Again, you must consider Ireland in isolation as a country attempting to legalise class A drugs, you aren't doing this, you are rabbiting on about countries where cannabis is legalised. Not analgous.

I also don't think you have a basic knowledge of the economics of the drugs industry, you have one or two pieces of info and are attempting to piece them together, unsuccessfully.

Cannabis is a drug. It has been legalised by Governments in isolation. It has gotten cheaper as a result.

Class A drugs are also drugs. If they are legalised then they will become cheaper, not more expensive.

Maybe instead of coming across like an ignoramus you could provide a credible source that backs up your nonsense idea that currently illegal drugs will become more expensive when they are legalised even though every currently legal drug is cheaper than their black market counterparts, apart from heavily taxed cigarettes.

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

Cannabis is a drug. It has been legalised by Governments in isolation. It has gotten cheaper as a result.

Class A drugs are also drugs. If they are legalised then they will become cheaper, not more expensive.

Maybe instead of coming across like an ignoramus you could provide a credible source that backs up your nonsense idea that currently illegal drugs will become more expensive when they are legalised even though every currently legal drug is cheaper than their black market counterparts, apart from heavily taxed cigarettes.

Oh, someone's getting p1ssy :pac:

Read it again Fred, the answers are there, I said you must consider "Ireland in isolation", you are not, you are bladdering (still) on about other countries not analgous to ourselves population wise etc

You are still bladdering on about cannabis too, you're latest claim that class A drugs are also drugs is profound stuff.

Augeo wrote: »

Again, you must consider Ireland in isolation as a country attempting to legalise class A drugs, you aren't doing this, you are rabbiting on about countries where cannabis is legalised. Not analgous.

I also don't think you have a basic knowledge of the economics of the drugs industry, you have one or two pieces of info and are attempting to piece them together, unsuccessfully.

Essentially your point is, some countries legalised cannabis and it got cheaper, therefor if Ireland legalises cocaine and other class A drugs they will be cheaper too.

I have detailed why I think that is not the case, read it again if you want

You're rivalling this gem now imo

Suryavarman wrote: »

The only person hurt by drug use is the drug user.

with

Suryavarman wrote: »

every currently legal drug is cheaper than their black market counterparts

2forjoy

some commumities are in desperation because of drugs

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

Oh, someone's getting p1ssy :pac:

Read it again Fred, the answers are there, I said you must consider "Ireland in isolation", you are not, you are bladdering (still) on about other countries not analgous to ourselves population wise etc

You are still bladdering on about cannabis too, you're latest claim that class A drugs are also drugs is profound stuff.






Essentially your point is, some countries legalised cannabis and it got cheaper, therefor if Ireland legalises cocaine and other class A drugs they will be cheaper too.

I have detailed why I think that is not the case, read it again if you want

You're rivalling this gem now imo


with

You haven't backed up your point one bit. Every shred of evidence out there suggests that when you legalise something it gets cheaper.

Smondie

robtri wrote: »

Suryavarman wrote: »

The red bar refers to crime, economic costs of reduced productivity, environmental damage and loss of relationships.

The only category that makes up the harm to others that can legitimately be considered to be harmful to others and caused by drug use is the environmental damage. Environmental damage only occurs as criminalisation incentivises high intensity farming. The rest of the categories are only as a result of drug abuse and drug criminalisation not drug use.

they are tied together ... hence why they are on the chart...
red is damage to others and blue is damage to user....

so if we legalised drugs, you would have no problems then with your kids(if you have any) using meth?? sure they not harming anyone

If your children were using meth would you prefer it they bought it off Jimmy the scumbag or from a regulated dispensary?

Smondie

Smondie wrote: »

The only packaging the weed in Amsterdam comes in is a clear plastic bag, no labels, no gmp facilities. just a dealer and his weighing scales, filling bags...........

And you reckon Ireland should do similar with cocaine and heroin?

Suryavarman

Suryavarman wrote: »

You haven't backed up your point one bit. Every shred of evidence out there suggests that when you legalise something it gets cheaper.

One needs to consider

CLASS A drugs being legalised in IRELAND

You are not doing so, your shreds of evidense are not applicable to the case we are discussing.

It requires an element of thinking, think about it

I understand you are struggling since you believe this

Suryavarman wrote: »

every currently legal drug is cheaper than their black market counterparts

Smondie

Augeo wrote: »

Smondie wrote: »

The only packaging the weed in Amsterdam comes in is a clear plastic bag, no labels, no gmp facilities. just a dealer and his weighing scales, filling bags...........

And you reckon Ireland should do similar with cocaine and heroin?

No I already said earlier on the thread we have pharmaceutical companies that already produce opiates and stimulants. I'm sure they'd love the buisness.

Smondie

Smondie wrote: »

No I already said earlier on the thread we have pharmaceutical companies that already produce opiates and stimulants. I'm sure they'd love the buisness.

So we can disregard your dealer, scales etc point you made frivolously so.

Smondie

Augeo wrote: »

[

So we can disregard your dealer, scales etc point you made frivolously so.

No, not for cannibas you can't which you included in your post about gmp, labelling etc post.

Augeo wrote: »

Legally sold drugs would need to be made in GMP facilities, packaged, labelled, HPRA approved etc etc.

For a controlled drug to be regulated it would have to be supplied with dosage and safe use instructions, all of which would need to have supporting studies done.

StupidLikeAFox

2forjoy wrote: »

some commumities are in desperation because of drugs

Just on this point, yes this is 100% correct. Nobody is disputing this. If drugs were legalised in the morning it wouldn't change that either.

However, why are drugs currently illegal? It's obviously an attempt to prevent the harmful consequences associated with drugs. As a strategy this is just not working. The garda are too stretched, you are never going to have a garda on every corner and even if you did, there would still be drug use and drug abuse happening. The casual drug users are grand, unless they are unlucky enough to get some bad stuff. The addicts are in bad way, because they either try to avail of stretched services, are driven to crime to feed their habit, and are thrown in jail. The only ones winning are the the drug dealers, who are earning a fortune. Throw one in jail and there are 10 more lining up to take over.

For whatever reason, people are always going to do drugs. It's a fact. They are never going to be wiped out. It's about time that we took control of the issue. It's a huge industry and is currently controlled by the likes of Christy Kinahan, who doesn't give a **** about anybody or anything only himself. We need to take control of the industry and put it in the hands of somebody (I. E. health services) whose goals are actually to reduce crime, reduce harm to the end users and improve society overall.

Johnboy1951

We need to take control of the industry and put it in the hands of somebody (I. E. health services) whose goals are actually to reduce crime, reduce harm to the end users and improve society overall.

I am leaning to the view that it should be put into the hands of a state entity who must run it as a business, entitled to licence outlets and charge a licence fee; negotiate with suppliers and import the product either in wholesale form or in retail form and set the retail price from the licenced outlets.
They would also of course be responsible for product testing to the highest standards and carefully monitor and test all the licenced outlets to ensure no 'unofficial' product was being sold, with harsh penalties for those who did. That company would be operated as a business with the goal of ensuring profits at the end of the year.
Those profits could then be allocated to various agencies and community groups ......... HSE to compensate for the cost of health care for users; addict treatment centres to help get addicts clean ..... etc etc. Once this gets established, laws governing selling and buying, outside of the official channels could be hardened and made most severe.

Suryavarman

Augeo wrote: »

One needs to consider

CLASS A drugs being legalised in IRELAND

You are not doing so, your shreds of evidense are not applicable to the case we are discussing.

It requires an element of thinking, think about it

I understand you are struggling since you believe this

Can you elaborate on why you think that makes a difference?

kleefarr

robtri wrote: »

any family that has had to deal with drug issues and the effects they have had will tell you.... legalising them will not make these issues go away nor the crime that is involved with users getting money to support their habits..

Depends on your point of view I suppose.
Regulated drug control has to be better than non regulated.

http://tdpf.org.uk/campaign/anyones-child

Whatsisname

Suryavarman wrote: »

Cannabis doesn't cause those issues. It worsens them in people already suffering from them but it doesn't cause them.

Not for everyone it doesn't. Helps alot of people with anxiety and depression.

Johnboy1951

Just watched an interesting programme on RTÉ on the subject ..... most advocating a comprehensive change in policy.

StringerBell

From reading the last few pages it seems this thread is titled wrong

Cabaal

StringerBell wrote: »

From reading the last few pages it seems this thread is titled wrong

You're not wrong, I'm failing to see the relevance to Waterford really.

The discussion has turned into a general discussion about government drug policy

starshine1234

Was it revealed which family member of a senior garda was involved in drug dealing?

StringerBell

Course not.

giles lynchwood

google "portugal leaglise drugs" .I rest my case.
LYNCHWOOD

kleefarr

giles lynchwood wrote: »

google "portugal leaglise drugs" .I rest my case.
LYNCHWOOD

Here is some info...

Portugal Drugs

Not legalised, but decriminalised.