Convicted rapist in the pub

Charizard

intheclouds wrote: »

Perhaps you misunderstand - his family have disowned him - they have not forgiven him. I still live locally and he has siblings who still live locally.

I never said he shouldnt be allowed to have new friends, simply that I would assume they dont know his past.

Would you willingly befriend a convicted rapist?

Thats all irrelevant, maybe he hopes someday his family will forgive him
I judge people on knowing them, I cant possibly answer that but I would never assume anything about anyones friends

B0jangles

He's a convicted violent rapist, he deserves no benefit of the doubt; personally I'd warn any woman I saw him chatting up.

If he's totally reformed and the woman you warn back off and leaves, well boo hoo, he didn't get to pick that woman up. If he's still an unrepentant rapist you've probably just saved a woman from being viciously assaulted. The two scenarios are not remotely comparable in the severity of the outcomes.

Charizard

B0jangles wrote: »

He's a convicted violent rapist, he deserves no benefit of the doubt; personally I'd warn any woman I saw him chatting up.

If he's totally reformed and the woman you warn back off and leaves, well boo hoo, he didn't get to pick that woman up. If he's still an unrepentant rapist you've probably just saved a woman from being viciously assaulted. The two scenarios are not remotely comparable in the severity of the outcomes.

You see thats the thing, you have no problem ruining his life even if he has changed, thats just a horrible attitude. I personally would report someone who did something like that to me for harassment as I feel its unjust

eviltwin

Charizard wrote: »

You see thats the thing, you have no problem ruining his life even if he has changed, thats just a horrible attitude. I personally would report someone who did something like that to me for harassment as I feel its unjust

How is warning a woman off ruining his life?

robyntmorton

eviltwin wrote: »

How is warning a woman off ruining his life?

This exactly! There is a massive difference between having a quiet word in someone's ear, to let them know the situation, and let them make their own choice, or walking into the middle of the pub and yelling "THIS MAN'S A RAPIST!"

One could be construed as ruining the man's life, the other couldn't, and you should be able to tell the difference.

JustTheOne

Has the woman he raped been able to get on with her life?

I doubt it.

Charizard

eviltwin wrote: »

How is warning a woman off ruining his life?

Because you are going out of your way to affect his life, how on earth dont you see this

Charizard

robyntmorton wrote: »

This exactly! There is a massive difference between having a quiet word in someone's ear, to let them know the situation, and let them make their own choice, or walking into the middle of the pub and yelling "THIS MAN'S A RAPIST!"

One could be construed as ruining the man's life, the other couldn't, and you should be able to tell the difference.

Actually both have a similar outcome in that you feel uncomfortable to see this man talking to a woman so you feel you need to affect a situation which in all fairness is nothing to do with you

Charizard

JustTheOne wrote: »

Has the woman he raped been able to get on with her life?

I doubt it.

That isnt relevant to this situation. Hes served his sentence a sentence handed down to him by the law of the land. Its not him who decides his punishment.
Are you honestly saying people dont move on after this terrible crime, because thats 100% not true

eviltwin

Charizard wrote: »

Because you are going out of your way to affect his life, how on earth dont you see this

Affecting his life how exactly? It's one woman in one pub on one night. I'm sure he will be grand which is more than you can say for his victim. I wonder if she's able to just get on with her sex life.

Chaos Black

I'd be concerned about the possibility of someone, or a group, taking vigilante action. A quiet word in someone's ear, may quickly spread around and escalate in a bar.

Don't think it's any of the OP's business. He served his time and might be a different person now (been rehabilitated whilst inside for example). He might also still be a scumbag rapist and therefore as "odd" and "creepy" as the OP remembered. Surely then this creepiness would put off most women?

If the OP wants to steer clear of him then it's her prerogative. You can't go around taking the law into your own hands and spreading information on him. That's going too far and also putting yourself at risk. Hopefully his period of incarceration will have taught him a lesson and dissuade him from doing such a thing again or rehabilitated him like I said.

There's a system there for all of us to abide by. You've got to hope it works well enough to protect potential victims. Subverting it by spreading gossip makes you a vigilante does it not? You can't be like him and do whatever you feel like. You're not God. You're not going to be able to stop all rapes ever happening unfortunately. What about all the other men there you don't know who might have some sort of conviction for sexual offences?

Shouldn't you be more concerned with enjoying your evening in the pub? You're free to leave if the guy's presence makes you uncomfortable. Or is there something more personal regarding you and this guy or men in general? Be careful of vengeance and wrath.

intheclouds

Deleted User wrote: »

Shouldn't you be more concerned with enjoying your evening in the pub? You're free to leave if the guy's presence makes you uncomfortable. Or is there something more personal regarding you and this guy or men in general? Be careful of vengeance and wrath.

This is a bit simplistic. I was in a group in the pub, a planned event with friends I only see once or twice a year. I would have had to tell them all what was going on if I wanted us to leave.

Or are you suggesting I should have left alone? Why? I havent done anything wrong.

Its interesting the posters who seem to feel that discussing how I felt about the situation equates to vengeance and wrath - at what point did I display any vengeful or wrathful behaviour? I didnt. Discussing it here anonymously is as much as has happened.

Im not really sure what you are trying to imply with your comment about something more personal between me and this guy or men in general? Are you trying to ask if I was his victim is it? I wasnt. I know him from school, he committed a terrible rape after we finished school and was convicted for it.

I dont really know what you mean by the comment about men in general? Are you trying to suggest that I am having an overreaction to seeing a convicted rapist in the pub so therefore it must be me who has a problem with men or something? Youll have to clarify.

intheclouds

Charizard wrote: »

You see thats the thing, you have no problem ruining his life even if he has changed, thats just a horrible attitude. I personally would report someone who did something like that to me for harassment as I feel its unjust

Interesting.

Would you not think he has ruined his own life (and someone elses) by committing a violent crime. His name and face were all over the newspapers. That responsibility lies squarely at his door.

I cant see how his life would be ruined by people speaking about what is already in the public domain?

intheclouds

Charizard wrote: »

Because you are going out of your way to affect his life, how on earth dont you see this

How? By talking about it here anonymously?

I doubt Ive even given enough detail here for it to be google-able.

meeeeh

Some here are deluding themselves that one starts with a clean slate when they come from prison. They are still someone who raped, killed, robbed or whatever else. While the debt to society was paid the trust was not rebuilt. The crimes don't get erased and telling about it to someone else isn't vigilante behavior it's at worst gossip. And can anyone seriously claim that if a woman close to them (mother, sister, daughter, friend) would start dating someone who violently raped before their response would be 'ah yeah he served his sentence, give him his chance'. Yeah right. It's easy to do some armchair moralising about things that will not affect you.

Charizard

eviltwin wrote: »

Affecting his life how exactly? It's one woman in one pub on one night. I'm sure he will be grand which is more than you can say for his victim. I wonder if she's able to just get on with her sex life.

But sure it could be you one night, the nosey neighbour the next night, the town gossip the next night, the priest the next night etc etc.
How is victim is coping is irrelevant, he has served his time, why are you ignoring this fact

Charizard

intheclouds wrote: »

This is a bit simplistic. I was in a group in the pub, a planned event with friends I only see once or twice a year. I would have had to tell them all what was going on if I wanted us to leave.

Or are you suggesting I should have left alone? Why? I havent done anything wrong.

Its interesting the posters who seem to feel that discussing how I felt about the situation equates to vengeance and wrath - at what point did I display any vengeful or wrathful behaviour? I didnt. Discussing it here anonymously is as much as has happened.

Im not really sure what you are trying to imply with your comment about something more personal between me and this guy or men in general? Are you trying to ask if I was his victim is it? I wasnt. I know him from school, he committed a terrible rape after we finished school and was convicted for it.

I dont really know what you mean by the comment about men in general? Are you trying to suggest that I am having an overreaction to seeing a convicted rapist in the pub so therefore it must be me who has a problem with men or something? Youll have to clarify.

Neither had he done anything wrong, he was having a drink with his friend

Charizard

intheclouds wrote: »

Interesting.

Would you not think he has ruined his own life (and someone elses) by committing a violent crime. His name and face were all over the newspapers. That responsibility lies squarely at his door.

I cant see how his life would be ruined by people speaking about what is already in the public domain?

Because he has put it behind him, something they do in jail through help. No I dont believe hes ruined his life

Charizard

intheclouds wrote: »

How? By talking about it here anonymously?

I doubt Ive even given enough detail here for it to be google-able.

Because you agree that if hes talking to a woman,she should be told.
I think you came on here so everyone would agree with you that youre right, when in this situation youre very very wrong

Charizard

meeeeh wrote: »

Some here are deluding themselves that one starts with a clean slate when they come from prison. They are still someone who raped, killed, robbed or whatever else. While the debt to society was paid the trust was not rebuilt. The crimes don't get erased and telling about it to someone else isn't vigilante behavior it's at worst gossip. And can anyone seriously claim that if a woman close to them (mother, sister, daughter, friend) would start dating someone who violently raped before their response would be 'ah yeah he served his sentence, give him his chance'. Yeah right. It's easy to do some armchair moralising about things that will not affect you.

So you believe people dont deserve a second chance its gossip and harassment telling people stuff. If I was in his shoes and heard someone was talking about me, Id go straight to the guards and file a charge against them. It would teach people from being such busy bodies

runawaybishop

Charizard wrote: »

Because you agree that if hes talking to a woman,she should be told.
I think you came on here so everyone would agree with you that youre right, when in this situation youre very very wrong

Right, no one would want to know they were being chatted up by a convicted rapist. Don't care if he's served his time, I would have no issue whatsoever telling anyone what he did.

intheclouds

Charizard wrote: »

Neither had he done anything wrong, he was having a drink with his friend

I don't disagree but you seem to be missing the context, I suggest you reread the thread.

Charizard wrote: »

Because he has put it behind him, something they do in jail through help. No I dont believe hes ruined his life

You think someone who commits a violent rape hasn't ruined their own life? Woah. Ok. If I committed such a crime my own life would be ruined by the guilt alone. And that's not even considering the impact it would have on future ability to find a job, make friends, have a relationship. Because most people would not want to be associated with a convicted rapist. If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself.

Charizard wrote: »

Because you agree that if hes talking to a woman,she should be told.
I think you came on here so everyone would agree with you that youre right, when in this situation youre very very wrong

Well you are entitled to think what you like. Just as I am. I never asked anyone to agree with me, and it's refreshing (although creepy) to find someone so vehemently defending a violent rapist.

intheclouds

Charizard wrote: »

So you believe people dont deserve a second chance its gossip and harassment telling people stuff. If I was in his shoes and heard someone was talking about me, Id go straight to the guards and file a charge against them. It would teach people from being such busy bodies

Laughable.

What charge? It's public knowledge, has been printed in every newspaper in the land. Criminal convictions are a matter of public record. He should have thought of what people might say before he did it.

I know what the Guard would tell you.

meeeeh

Charizard wrote: »

So you believe people dont deserve a second chance its gossip and harassment telling people stuff. If I was in his shoes and heard someone was talking about me, Id go straight to the guards and file a charge against them. It would teach people from being such busy bodies

People have to earn the second chance. Nobody just gets the second chance. If you think that's how things in life work out you will be unpleasantly surprised. Anyway guards would laugh at you if you came with that to them. People talking truth, that really is a crime...

Charizard

Charizard wrote: »

Because you agree that if hes talking to a woman,she should be told.
I think you came on here so everyone would agree with you that youre right, when in this situation youre very very wrong

Is she?

If you have a sister, or mother, or daughter, or friend, and they bring home a new boyfriend that you know is convicted of a vicious sexual assault, would you consider it none of your business and console yourself that he served his time?

How would you feel if your loved one was raped and beaten by someone you knew had a history of it but didn't warn them of?

It's not anti-man to want to protect other women from the same fate. It's ironic that if you had a friend who had a new girlfriend you knew was a serial cheater, you'd probably not think twice about warning him.

Personally, I agree with you. If someone has served their sentence and paid their debt to society, then it's time to move on. Conversely, I also agree with most of the posters here, and if I saw a girl getting chatted up by a man convicted of violent rape, I would consider it my civic duty to warn her. She can then make an informed decision if she wants to take the risk or not.

That's why the OP started the thread, it's a subject that gives rise to very conflicting feelings and one takes the risk on one hand of intruding on a new beginning for a convict, or of putting an innocent person at risk of life-changing violence. Most people, like myself, would be inclined to err on the side of caution and let the girl know the facts and leave her to decide for herself.

I'd feel the same way about having a person convicted of crimes against the elderly being hired to do work in my Grandmothers house, for example. It would be her decision to make, but she should have all the facts.

Shout it from the rooftops, no. A quiet word in her ear, yes.

eviltwin

Charizard wrote: »

But sure it could be you one night, the nosey neighbour the next night, the town gossip the next night, the priest the next night etc etc.
How is victim is coping is irrelevant, he has served his time, why are you ignoring this fact

So what? You think I give a sh*t about a rapist and his feelings? Why are you so keen to defend him. Would you be so glib if the unsuspecting woman was your sister or daughter?

Charizard

Charizard wrote: »

So you believe people dont deserve a second chance its gossip and harassment telling people stuff. If I was in his shoes and heard someone was talking about me, Id go straight to the guards and file a charge against them. It would teach people from being such busy bodies

I'd love to see the guards face when you complain that a woman warned another woman that the man she was chatting to abducted, violently assaulted, and raped another woman.

You have an extraordinary amount of sympathy for the rapist. I'm impressed with the way you have no trouble chastising posters for "gossip", but have no problem with convicted rapists being out and about in the same area they committed their crime, and complain about them being out to ruin a rapist life because he deserves a second chance, without a single word of understanding for the innocent victim who's life was altered forever by his criminal actions.

Chaos Black

Just to circle back to my point, I'd warn someone that I know, but quietly telling strangers in a city centre bar on a weekend could quickly get out of hand. I don't think you can really quietly tell strangers that a convicted rapist is in a bar, word will spread and it isn't beyond imagination that said convicted rapist will get his head kicked in, or worse, the wrong person who just happens to be standing next to him or is his mate gets puts into hospital. I think it is a fairly conceivable scenario and it is naive to think all you are doing is having a "quiet word".

Now I don't think it is illegal, as you are just stating facts about someone. You may even quietly think said convicted rapist deserves a beating.

I wouldn't want to see anyone beaten up, but I wouldn't refrain from telling people his history.

The history is public knowledge, I didn't make it so - he did by his criminal actions and it's up to him to modify his behaviour to minimise the possible consequences of it, and that includes dealing with people knowing what he was convicted of.

Charizard

Candie wrote: »

I wouldn't want to see anyone beaten up, but I wouldn't refrain from telling people his history.

The history is public knowledge, I didn't make it so - he did by his criminal actions and it's up to him to modify his behaviour to minimise the possible consequences of it, and that includes dealing with people knowing what he was convicted of.

How is it your business, because well in fairness, it isnt at all. Like Ive mentioned its a witch hunt mentality

Charizard

eviltwin wrote: »

So what? You think I give a sh*t about a rapist and his feelings? Why are you so keen to defend him. Would you be so glib if the unsuspecting woman was your sister or daughter?

I will defend anyone who is getting attacked for doing nothing wrong, just like I would defend you if someone was attacking you, verbal or other wise

Charizard

Charizard wrote: »

How is it your business, because well in fairness, it isnt at all. Like Ive mentioned its a witch hunt mentality

As much of a witch hunt as telling people not to hire a convicted fraudster to do their accounting, or warning people that their new babysitter is a convicted pedophile.

You're confusing giving people a second chance with allowing them to avoid all the consequences of their actions.

intheclouds

Charizard wrote: »

I will defend anyone who is getting attacked for doing nothing wrong, just like I would defend you if someone was attacking you, verbal or other wise

Doing nothing wrong?

What if his victim had come into the pub? She could have, it's a busy city centre pub.

The fact that alcohol was involved the night he committed his crime, that doesn't ring any alarm bells?

Why are you so keen to defend a convicted rapist?

intheclouds

Charizard wrote: »

How is it your business, because well in fairness, it isnt at all. Like Ive mentioned its a witch hunt mentality

It might even be seen as a civic duty to warn others of possible danger.

runawaybishop

Charizard wrote: »

How is it your business, because well in fairness, it isnt at all. Like Ive mentioned its a witch hunt mentality

Of course it's their business, a rapist is talking to someone in a similar scenario to the original crime. It's public info, the public he is chatting up in a bar have a right to know and I would feel obligated to tell someone in case he turned around and raped someone again.

runawaybishop

intheclouds wrote: »

What if his victim had come into the pub? She could have, it's a busy city centre pub.

What if his victim saw him in penny's? I don't think he should be banned from going out in public.

eviltwin

Charizard wrote: »

I will defend anyone who is getting attacked for doing nothing wrong, just like I would defend you if someone was attacking you, verbal or other wise

Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. I wouldn't have a paedophile mind my child or hire a thief to work in my home if I could help it and I'd appreciate the heads up. The girl in this case is free to make her own decisions, for all we know she might not care but at least it's an informed choice.

intheclouds

runawaybishop wrote: »

What if his victim saw him in penny's? I don't think he should be banned from going out in public.

I don't imagine he'd be drinking alcohol in Penny's though. Alcohol fuelled the original crime. In a city centre pub.

runawaybishop

intheclouds wrote: »

I don't imagine he'd be drinking alcohol in Penny's though. Alcohol fuelled the original crime. In a city centre pub.

Don't think I'd begrude anyone a drink. Alcohol doesn't make you into a rapist tbh, just lowers inhibitions. It's the chatting up young ones I'd have an issue with, not the pint.

intheclouds

runawaybishop wrote: »

Don't think I'd begrude anyone a drink. Alcohol doesn't make you into a rapist tbh, just lowers inhibitions. It's the chatting up young ones I'd have an issue with, not the pint.

Well the original crime came about from him observing then following a girl from a pub. He was drinking. He hadn't been chatting her up. During the crime he objectified her (well obviously, it was a rape). So in terms of behaviour the drinking triggered more alarms for me.

Personally if I committed a terrible crime after drinking, I'd never drink again. Or if I did it would be in a very controlled situation and not in a situation that mirrored the original crime.

runawaybishop

intheclouds wrote: »

Well the original crime came about from him observing then following a girl from a pub. He was drinking. He hadn't been chatting her up. During the crime he objectified her (well obviously, it was a rape). So in terms of behaviour the drinking triggered more alarms for me.

Personally if I committed a terrible crime after drinking, I'd never drink again. Or if I did it would be in a very controlled situation and not in a situation that mirrored the original crime.

Oh I agree alright, he should be whiter than white from now on. I wouldn't have issue with him minding his own business having a drink though. That said I don't know the specifics.

Chaos Black

Candie wrote: »

I wouldn't want to see anyone beaten up, but I wouldn't refrain from telling people his history.

The history is public knowledge, I didn't make it so - he did by his criminal actions and it's up to him to modify his behaviour to minimise the possible consequences of it, and that includes dealing with people knowing what he was convicted of.

I don't disagree about any right of privacy to publicly free information on behalf of the convicted person, but what you want and what can potentially/likely happen are two different things. Of course it will depend on the bar and clientele, but I think anyone who shares that kind of information in such a setting, has to be aware, their actions, no matter how well intentioned, is endangering others (Rapist/men in his proximity) or even themselves (convicted, violent rapist might not take to public humiliation well). If you feel comfortable with the consequences, okay, but I think it is an important consideration. A simple re-phrase to "should I quietly tell others in the bar, hopefully someone teaches him a lesson", does not sound outlandish afterall.

Now it would not be your responsibility if someone or a group decided to break the law and take violent action, but you may feel different, especially if someone innocent gets caught up in the melee.

I get the argument, that not sharing the information is possibly endangering the women he converses with, hence why I say that I would tell someone that I know.

intheclouds

Agree Chaos Black.

I don't think vigilantism or indeed, being the keeper of someone, is the answer either.

The whole situation and some of the subsequent discussion here, has really unsettled me.

meeeeh

Chaos Black wrote: »

I don't disagree about any right of privacy to publicly free information on behalf of the convicted person, but what you want and what can potentially/likely happen are two different things. Of course it will depend on the bar and clientele, but I think anyone who shares that kind of information in such a setting, has to be aware, their actions, no matter how well intentioned, is endangering others (Rapist/men in his proximity) or even themselves (convicted, violent rapist might not take to public humiliation well). If you feel comfortable with the consequences, okay, but I think it is an important consideration. A simple re-phrase to "should I quietly tell others in the bar, hopefully someone teaches him a lesson", does not sound outlandish afterall.

Now it would not be your responsibility if someone or a group decided to break the law and take violent action, but you may feel different, especially if someone innocent gets caught up in the melee.

I get the argument, that not sharing the information is possibly endangering the women he converses with, hence why I say that I would tell someone that I know.

I'm mostly mind my own business person so I wouldn't overly warn people that I don't know. Exception might be someone who is very drunk , then I might warn friends to keep an eye on her.

That being said, I don't like your reasoning. We are not responsible for actions of other adults and most men I like and respect wouldn't rush into a fight. I actually despise the macho attitude of just wanting to get into fight at any opportunity. At no point would I feel guilty for actions of morons because they overheard something I said.

Chaos Black

Chaos Black wrote: »

I don't disagree about any right of privacy to publicly free information on behalf of the convicted person, but what you want and what can potentially/likely happen are two different things. Of course it will depend on the bar and clientele, but I think anyone who shares that kind of information in such a setting, has to be aware, their actions, no matter how well intentioned, is endangering others (Rapist/men in his proximity) or even themselves (convicted, violent rapist might not take to public humiliation well). If you feel comfortable with the consequences, okay, but I think it is an important consideration. A simple re-phrase to "should I quietly tell others in the bar, hopefully someone teaches him a lesson", does not sound outlandish afterall.

Now it would not be your responsibility if someone or a group decided to break the law and take violent action, but you may feel different, especially if someone innocent gets caught up in the melee.

I get the argument, that not sharing the information is possibly endangering the women he converses with, hence why I say that I would tell someone that I know.

I hope you're not implying that I'd be comfortable with somebody being hurt because I warned a girl of someone's rape conviction, I do not support vigilantism and would not be acting in the hope someone teaches the rapist a lesson.

In the kind of circumstances described by the OP, all anyone can do is use their best judgement and gauge the situation as best they can, but the only people who are responsible for their actions are the people who act.

That includes anyone who wants to start a fight for whatever reason, and people who have to face the social consequences of criminal convictions for violent crime.

Charizard

intheclouds wrote: »

It might even be seen as a civic duty to warn others of possible danger.

It isnt, its busy body nonsense

Charizard

intheclouds wrote: »

Doing nothing wrong?

What if his victim had come into the pub? She could have, it's a busy city centre pub.

The fact that alcohol was involved the night he committed his crime, that doesn't ring any alarm bells?

Why are you so keen to defend a convicted rapist?

Christ read what your saying. I already said I defend anyone getting attacked for doing nothing harm. Nothing described rings alarm bells

Charizard

runawaybishop wrote: »

Of course it's their business, a rapist is talking to someone in a similar scenario to the original crime. It's public info, the public he is chatting up in a bar have a right to know and I would feel obligated to tell someone in case he turned around and raped someone again.

Of course its there business :rolleyes: it really isnt unless off course your batman

Charizard

eviltwin wrote: »

Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that. I wouldn't have a paedophile mind my child or hire a thief to work in my home if I could help it and I'd appreciate the heads up. The girl in this case is free to make her own decisions, for all we know she might not care but at least it's an informed choice.

These are wildly different scenarios, your outraged about a man out drinking in a bar perhaps talking to women