AMD Zen Discussion Thread

Cuddlesworth

.G. wrote: »

Ryzen 5 3600, 16GB 3200mhz ram on a MSI B450 Gaming Plus mobo, GTX 1080.



Got a copy of the full version, ran 13 passes overnight, no errors. thinking now it might be Virtual memory causing the issues. I've got an Intel build with slower DDR4 in it than his, I'm going to put my RAM in his machine and his in mine and see how it goes for a while. Defo rule it out hat way although after the memtest overnight I'm sure its not a hardware issue with the sticks.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/18051-memory/1718166-gsat-google-stressful-application-test-tiny-bootable-linux-iso.html

I've had PC's that passed memtest overnight, then failed stressapptest in minutes.

.G.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

https://www.overclock.net/forum/18051-memory/1718166-gsat-google-stressful-application-test-tiny-bootable-linux-iso.html

I've had PC's that passed memtest overnight, then failed stressapptest in minutes.

I've thrown his ram into my machine, he has mine in his. His is still crashing, mine isn't.

Going to change out the SSD and have moved the virtual memory pagefile to a different drive too. Trying a straight clone of his SSD to the new one, then a clean install if it keeps happening. If that doesn't sort it I'm at a loss.

K.O.Kiki

Just go straight to clean install tbh

Inviere

Hi folks, I'm in the beginning phase of speccing a build to replace my daily driver (7700k GTX1070), and am strongly looking at the 3700X (while keeping an eye on inevitable Zen 3 equivalent). This'll be a living room pc for gaming, emulation, and web browsing so silence is of the essence.

In that vein I want to go itx, as the atx cases are all just too big for my liking. I really like the Node 202 but the TV unit we have here just wouldn't have the ventilation for it in a horizontal position, and I really want to avoid high temps/thermal throttling. So I've more or less settled on the Define Nano S as a foundation/starting point.

I'm slightly out of the loop in terms of x570 itx boards at the moment, are there any particular stand out candidates? Do I particularly need to go X, or would I be best advised going with a B series board for my use-case? I want strong gaming performance, but the TDP of the 3700X seems quite low considering, so I'm not sure really.

TLDR - what are the best X & B series mitx AM4 boards out there at the mo?

K.O.Kiki

Ryzen 4500U benchmarks leaked

8th-gen console performance from a 15W laptop chip!

K.O.Kiki

Inviere wrote: »

Hi folks, I'm in the beginning phase of speccing a build to replace my daily driver (7700k GTX1070), and am strongly looking at the 3700X (while keeping an eye on inevitable Zen 3 equivalent). This'll be a living room pc for gaming, emulation, and web browsing so silence is of the essence.

In that vein I want to go itx, as the atx cases are all just too big for my liking. I really like the Node 202 but the TV unit we have here just wouldn't have the ventilation for it in a horizontal position, and I really want to avoid high temps/thermal throttling. So I've more or less settled on the Define Nano S as a foundation/starting point.

I'm slightly out of the loop in terms of x570 itx boards at the moment, are there any particular stand out candidates? Do I particularly need to go X, or would I be best advised going with a B series board for my use-case? I want strong gaming performance, but the TDP of the 3700X seems quite low considering, so I'm not sure really.

TLDR - what are the best X & B series mitx AM4 boards out there at the mo?

MSI B450I GAMING PLUS AC - buy it together with the CPU from a trusted vendor (e.g. from CCL)

Instead of the 29L Nano S, consider the 20L Node 304.
For 8-core there is no "3700 non-X" yet - the choice is between 3700X & 3800X :rolleyes:

z0oT

Inviere wrote: »

I'm slightly out of the loop in terms of x570 itx boards at the moment, are there any particular stand out candidates? Do I particularly need to go X, or would I be best advised going with a B series board for my use-case? I want strong gaming performance, but the TDP of the 3700X seems quite low considering, so I'm not sure really.

TLDR - what are the best X & B series mitx AM4 boards out there at the mo?

If you want to go X570, I can recommend this ITX board from Gigabyte. I have it, and apart from some bugs closer to it's launch it's been 100% for me since - I'm using it with a 3700X, a 1TB PCIe 4.0 M.2 & a 2TB PCIe 3.0 M.2 (Dual M.2 is a nice feature of it). Everything is at stock.
https://www.gigabyte.com/ie/Motherboard/X570-I-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf

That being said, unless you really want the PCIe 4.0 there's not much reason to go X570.

When it comes to cases I've used both a Nano S & Node 304. The Nano S is much easier to work with and the airflow should be better, but it had better be being bigger. One caveat is that you should really go with an SFX PSU to give your graphics card a bit more breathing room. (Picture of my system to show you what I mean)

The Node 304 gets very difficult to work in if you start putting multiple HDDs or a tower air cooler into it. If you don't want that - say just one M.2 and/or SSD it's certainly the more compact choice. It's also best used with an SFX PSU.

Slutmonkey57b

"Itx" cases that are just ATX with a few mm shaved off drive me up the wall. What's the point? You're not saving space, and it costs more!

Mr Crispy

I ended up buying an NCase M1 as I wanted both the portability and cooling versatility. Expensive, but I figure this will be the last PC case I ever buy, so I pushed the boat out a bit.

Inviere

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

MSI B450I GAMING PLUS AC

Cool, will research it a bit, thanks.

Instead of the 29L Nano S, consider the 20L Node 304.

Will check that out too, cheers.

For 8-core there is no "3700 non-X" yet - the choice is between 3700X & 3800X :rolleyes:

Sorry when I was asking if I need to go X series or not, I was referring to motherboard, ie, X470 or B450.

z0oT wrote: »

If you want to go X570, I can recommend this ITX board from Gigabyte. I have it, and apart from some bugs closer to it's launch it's been 100% for me since - I'm using it with a 3700X, a 1TB PCIe 4.0 M.2 & a 2TB PCIe 3.0 M.2 (Dual M.2 is a nice feature of it). Everything is at stock.
https://www.gigabyte.com/ie/Motherboard/X570-I-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf

That being said, unless you really want the PCIe 4.0 there's not much reason to go X570.

Interesting, I'll check that out. PCIe 4.0 isn't a requirement tbh at my level, so perhaps 470/450 might make the most sense. I do wonder though that when the inevitable 4700X comes along, would it be more advantageous to have a 570 base over a 470?

When it comes to cases I've used both a Nano S & Node 304. The Nano S is much easier to work with and the airflow should be better, but it had better be being bigger. One caveat is that you should really go with an SFX PSU to give your graphics card a bit more breathing room. (Picture of my system to show you what I mean)

The Node 304 gets very difficult to work in if you start putting multiple HDDs or a tower air cooler into it. If you don't want that - say just one M.2 and/or SSD it's certainly the more compact choice. It's also best used with an SFX PSU.

Interesting cheers, I see by the pic the GPU could end up being starved of cool air being so close to the PSU. The SF450 there gives a LOT more breathing room. Ahh, decisions decisions.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

"Itx" cases that are just ATX with a few mm shaved off drive me up the wall. What's the point? You're not saving space, and it costs more!

I've zero need for a full sized ATX board, all I ever plan on adding onto it is a GPU, which an itx board perfectly caters for. I won't be overclocking either, and will only need an m.2 socket and x2 sata drives. I do however need some proper gaming grunt (ideally I'd be looking at a 3700X or 4700X when its released, 16/32GB ram depending on pricing, and a high end gpu like a 2080 or 3080 equivalent when released. So while the parts themselves won't take up much real-estate, thermals will be a significant consideration.

I'd love a case like the Sentry 2.0 which is a proper sff case that allows for high end components, but I didn't back it under Kickstarter and retail units don't seem to be available at all any time soon. The Node 302 with these parts in it comes with thermal concerns, and the other 'console' type cases are all too big. So that puts me back looking for a floor standing, living room friendly case. The Nano S ticks all the boxes, and yes while it might be on the large side for an mitx build, it seems much more living room friendly than its ATX sized cousins. What case would you recommend for my use case?

z0oT

Inviere wrote: »

Interesting, I'll check that out. PCIe 4.0 isn't a requirement tbh at my level, so perhaps 470/450 might make the most sense. I do wonder though that when the inevitable 4700X comes along, would it be more advantageous to have a 570 base over a 470?

It is hard to know with whatever the 4700X ends up looking like. It's possible there could some weird BIOS quirks on X470/B450 boards with the 4000 series.

If you're dead set on upgrading to a 4000 series Ryzen, you're probably best to go with the X570 setup to maximize the chances of there not being issues.

This is just my own feeling though. I could be way off. We won't know until the time comes.

Inviere wrote: »

Interesting cheers, I see by the pic the GPU could end up being starved of cool air being so close to the PSU. The SF450 there gives a LOT more breathing room. Ahh, decisions decisions.

I should mention - The 5700 XT I have is a bit of a severe example for that case given it's a 2.25-2.5 slot card, it actually wouldn't fit with a standard ATX PSU anyway.

K.O.Kiki

RIP Intel HEDT

.G.

.G. wrote: »

I've thrown his ram into my machine, he has mine in his. His is still crashing, mine isn't.

Going to change out the SSD and have moved the virtual memory pagefile to a different drive too. Trying a straight clone of his SSD to the new one, then a clean install if it keeps happening. If that doesn't sort it I'm at a loss.

Different ssd installed, clean install of windows, game crashes continue, just had BSOD too. I've no clue what to do now.

savemejebus

.G. wrote: »

Different ssd installed, clean install of windows, game crashes continue, just had BSOD too. I've no clue what to do now.

Apologies if it was already asked but what is your PSU like?

.G.

savemejebus wrote: »

Apologies if it was already asked but what is your PSU like?

Its about a year old, can't remember wattage, it's 550 gold or 650 gold seasonic.

ReZonator

.G. wrote: »

I've thrown his ram into my machine, he has mine in his. His is still crashing, mine isn't.

Going to change out the SSD and have moved the virtual memory pagefile to a different drive too. Trying a straight clone of his SSD to the new one, then a clean install if it keeps happening. If that doesn't sort it I'm at a loss.

Might not help but I replaced a faulty motherboard recently, and after many headaches getting the PC back up and running I started to experience BSOD. It was a different crash almost every time, at random. I tested the memory and the disks, and it came back OK. Couldn't figure it out until I realized I had faulty SATA cables. I just swapped them out at some point in my trouble shooting, and haven't had a problem since. Never had that particular issue with the cables on my old system, though upon reflection they never quite clipped in to the SATA ports properly but still worked nevertheless for years.

.G.

Yeah was thinking of obscure things like that myself so I've rebuilt the whole thing today, it now has my ram in it, my spare ssd and harddrive, my sata cables and another fresh install of windows to boot. Will see what happens. He's still having crashes on Rainbow six seige but from looking online, he's far from alone on that score so need to wait and see if we get any BSOD. I if do I'll fire the dumps off to Microsoft and see if they can see whats up.

Cuddlesworth

.G. wrote: »

Yeah was thinking of obscure things like that myself so I've rebuilt the whole thing today, it now has my ram in it, my spare ssd and harddrive, my sata cables and another fresh install of windows to boot. Will see what happens. He's still having crashes on Rainbow six seige but from looking online, he's far from alone on that score so need to wait and see if we get any BSOD. I if do I'll fire the dumps off to Microsoft and see if they can see whats up.

Fire dumps off to microsoft? Has something changed in the last few years I'm not aware of.

.G.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Fire dumps off to microsoft? Has something changed in the last few years I'm not aware of.

You can submit the dumps on the Windows community forums and get them looked at.

wotzgoingon

AMD laptop APU's keeping up with Desktop parts in TimeSpy CPU test.

https://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/139628-amd-ryzen-7-4800hs-appears-time-spy-cpu-benchmarks/?fbclid=IwAR0-WEamIOF_ekh2jPqtBEj0a_AEfmO-qdVIaDURXeEM7czrKdOLr35tPLw

Cuddlesworth

.G. wrote: »

You can submit the dumps on the Windows community forums and get them looked at.

So people taking a pot shot at it? Because I know one person who can actually read them properly(outside of looking at the basics) and to say its a skill set is a understatement.

.G.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

So people taking a pot shot at it? Because I know one person who can actually read them properly(outside of looking at the basics) and to say its a skill set is a understatement.

When I googled my issues I came across a few pages which seemed to have Microsoft people responding to them, maybe I wasn't paying proper attention.

I don't see the issue though, people here have tried to help, the people there will too. I'll take any help I can get to be honest. I can't debug them properly I'm open anyone who apparently can, not sure what else anyone is supposed to do for help with debugs apart from learn to do it themselves!

Haven't had a BSOD yet since i did what I did they other day though. Still many crashes with Ubisoft games in the main, so I'll be hitting their tech dept first.

.G.

Jinxed it. BSOD tonight page fault in non paged area. Only hardware I haven't changed in the machine is the cpu, mobo and 550w PSU.

Might try an older bios version.

Cuddlesworth

Stress test the cpu, watch the temps at the same time.

.G.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Stress test the cpu, watch the temps at the same time.

Thanks. With prime95 or something else?

I might put my gpu and psu in it for a while too, that will mean only the mobo and cpu left from the original build. It's not a great case for airflow though and my gpu is a 2080ti. His gaming temps are all fine in it with his 1080.

H3llR4iser

.G. wrote: »

Thanks. With prime95 or something else?

I might put my gpu and psu in it for a while too, that will mean only the mobo and cpu left from the original build. It's not a great case for airflow though and my gpu is a 2080ti. His gaming temps are all fine in it with his 1080.

Your case is a mystery at this point. I would recommend - but that's probably been said already - to run a stress test with the bare minimum components to get the system running and work up from there. TBH, everything seems to be pointing towards a defective mainboard - or even the CPU, but I'd look at the mobo first.



Any chance you could test the CPU on a different board?



Prime95 or OCCT would be good candidates, AIDA64 too.

.G.

Yeah I'm thinking mobo too or maybe just a sh!tty version of BIOS. MSI don't seem to be paying much attention to the gaming plus as regards BIOS updates. I've no way of testing the cpu on a different board without buying one but I may just have to do that to rule one or the other out. He has game crashes daily but BSOD not as often, once yesterday and today but not for a few days before that so I'd need the board for a few weeks to be sure of things.

smacl

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

So people taking a pot shot at it? Because I know one person who can actually read them properly(outside of looking at the basics) and to say its a skill set is a understatement.

To be fair, you can get quite a bit from the basics. Opening the debug file in a debugger will often give you a stack trace to the faulting module. If you've had a few BSODs and they all fault in the same module and the same address, there's a fair chance it is a driver issue. I've had this very recently with the latest version of Acronis where their security offering BSODs when I plug in my Garmin. I use VS2017 for debugging but WinDgb will also do the trick nicely. Once you know the faulting module and can figure a matching .DLL, EXE or similar executable you can check properties, or just uninstall and see if it fixes the issue. More often then not, you won't have the symbols to do a more detailed analysis though you can get many of them from the MS symbol server site. If you check a number of BSOD dump files and they're all happening at different locations, it is more likely an intermittent hardware issue.

If you do get a dump file pointing to a driver or kernel code, it can be really useful to the developer in pinpoint an issue and they'll thank you for passing it on. Not sure what MS does with dump files that indicate 3rd party code issues but not much at a guess.

.G.

smacl wrote: »

To be fair, you can get quite a bit from the basics. Opening the debug file in a debugger will often give you a stack trace to the faulting module. If you've had a few BSODs and they all fault in the same module and the same address, there's a fair chance it is a driver issue. I've had this very recently with the latest version of Acronis where their security offering BSODs when I plug in my Garmin. I use VS2017 for debugging but WinDgb will also do the trick nicely. Once you know the faulting module and can figure a matching .DLL, EXE or similar executable you can check properties, or just uninstall and see if it fixes the issue. More often then not, you won't have the symbols to do a more detailed analysis though you can get many of them from the MS symbol server site. If you check a number of BSOD dump files and they're all happening at different locations, it is more likely an intermittent hardware issue.

If you do get a dump file pointing to a driver or kernel code, it can be really useful to the developer in pinpoint an issue and they'll thank you for passing it on. Not sure what MS does with dump files that indicate 3rd party code issues but not much at a guess.

I've used Whocrashed to debug the last two BSODs and both are pointing at a Windows kernal error but the program can't be certain if it's caused by a third party driver or not and if so which one! It's certain it's a software issue though. Just had another BSOD but weirdly the dump file is missing.

I've ubisoft tech support trying to help at the moment but they haven't asked for dump files.

We're probably way off topic here as I suppose it's not really a AMD zen issue so if mods want to move all this to its own thread feel free!

Cuddlesworth

smacl wrote: »

To be fair, you can get quite a bit from the basics. Opening the debug file in a debugger will often give you a stack trace to the faulting module. If you've had a few BSODs and they all fault in the same module and the same address, there's a fair chance it is a driver issue. I've had this very recently with the latest version of Acronis where their security offering BSODs when I plug in my Garmin. I use VS2017 for debugging but WinDgb will also do the trick nicely. Once you know the faulting module and can figure a matching .DLL, EXE or similar executable you can check properties, or just uninstall and see if it fixes the issue. More often then not, you won't have the symbols to do a more detailed analysis though you can get many of them from the MS symbol server site. If you check a number of BSOD dump files and they're all happening at different locations, it is more likely an intermittent hardware issue.

If you do get a dump file pointing to a driver or kernel code, it can be really useful to the developer in pinpoint an issue and they'll thank you for passing it on. Not sure what MS does with dump files that indicate 3rd party code issues but not much at a guess.

I was just curious what level went into it on community forums. I thought I could read them well(a long time ago) but the only option was to teach yourself.