Puppy/young dog questions : food etc

volchitsa

An old faithful I know, and I have looked on previous threads but still can't quite make up my mind :

Our not-entirely-new puppy (pix to come in the next post) is now nearly 8 months old, doing well if a bit headstrong sometimes, but I'm thinking of changing her food so I'm looking for more advice from all you wise people here.

Basically she's doing fine, no health problems, but along the top of her back the fur gets rather greasy. She doesn't like baths, unfortunately, because that does sort the problem out, her fur is always beautiful after a bath!

I see people here saying that diet can make a difference, I kept her on Royal Canine just because we could get it easily via puppy classes, but I realize it's not particularly good. So I'm thinking of changing her to one of the non-cereal brands but even then, there is so much choice I can't quite work out whether there's any way of knowing in advance what will suit or whether we may have to keep ordering bags of different brands until we find one!

So here are some of my questions :
- What's the difference if the food is non-cereal or non-gluten? Is it non-cereal I'm looking for or is it the gluten that dogs react to?

- If she starts on a particular brand of puppy food now, when it comes time to change to adult (often at 12 months apparently) does that usually mean the adult equivalent will suit her too?

Looking at Zooplus I see some brands, eg Taste of the Wild with their Pacific Stream Puppy vs High Prairie Puppy, have several different puppy foods, how do you choose which to go for (apart from the obvious "size" criteria that is)?

When a brand does kibble and wet food with the same name (eg TotW again) does that mean we could give her the two kinds (dry/wet) without having to spend time (or as much time) letting her adapt?

Also I see Markus Muhle which I recognize from on here actually costs less than I'm paying at the moment for RC! It's a good bit cheaper than TotW. So are any of the non cereal ones all much the same, or is a dearer one always better?

(Thanks for reading through this, I hope it's not too long!)

volchitsa

So here are a couple of pictures from last week :

I couldn't get her in the frame properly, she wouldn't stop running!



So here's another of her standing still this time, but from the back unfortunately!

volchitsa

Looking at my OP I see it's way too long.

For anyone who can't be bothered reading it all, I'm looking for opinions on non cereal dog brands (kibble as I'll prob be ordering on internet) such as :

- taste of the Wild (and if so which one?)
- Markus Muhle
- Nutrivet (special offer at the mo)
- Acana
- Applaws

Or other, especially if there's a particular reason.
Thanks.

muddypaws

Personally, and I'll probably get slated, but I think grain free is a fad at the moment, its trendy but there is no real scientific evidence that I am aware of that dogs should avoid grains. Unless someone knows different There are so many new dog foods that have sprung up lately saying that they are grain free, most of them are made in the same factory, just with different packaging.

Knine

At 8 mths old she is also fine to go onto adult food. I don't bother feeding puppy food after about 3 or 4 months old.

In terms of brands of food it can be a case trial & error to find which suits your dog best. To be honest I seen no difference in my dogs when fed on grain free.

Beautiful dog btw.

volchitsa

Thanks for that.

So what do I want to be looking for then, if I'm not going to go through the brands in alphabetical order? A high meat content, ok, but is there anything specific to look out for (or to avoid)?
Also, if it's not about cereal what's the problem with Royal Canin then (assuming there is one and I've not picked it up wrong) and are the brands you find in the supermarkets all of a muchness?

Any particular suggestions - are the ones I mentioned likely to be better than what she's on now, given that she has no intestinal issues, it's just this strip along her spine that gets greasy looking. Maybe that's just the kind of her fur and we just have to wash her more often? (I thought it was bad to bath dogs too often.)

Chuchote

I'd look for a highly reputable brand. For instance, I changed my dog to the very cheap dog food from a supermarket chain for a few months, years ago, having brought her up on Eukanuba (half a million and your mother's gold teeth, please, cha-ching). It looked the same, it smelt the same, she laced into it as happily – but after a couple of months she started losing condition, and her normally glittering coat started looking dull, to the extent that a doggy neighbour noticed and asked what was wrong. Put her back on the Eukanuba and she immediately started to thrive again. She's now on the 'seniors' (heh!) Eukanuba, which has, I think, less protein and more oils, and is doing well on it, with sardines mashed in or milk poured on for her poor old teeth, and veterinary glucosamine added. Eukanuba do good puppy, adult and different-size specialised foods.

volchitsa

Thanks Chuchote, but to be frank, while I'm happy to spend as much as I can afford on her food, I have other family members to feed too, and I can't put her on something that costs an inordinate amount of money. So that's that as far as Eukanuba (I don't think I've even seen that one on the Zooplus site) is concerned.

Can I ask though why you put your dog on that one in the first place, and what is so special about it in terms of ingredients? Because I'm assuming that there has to be something in it to explain such a huge difference, presumably, i.e. it's not just magical! What exactly do you mean by a highly reputable brand? How would I recognize one? I thought Royal Canin was good but that appears to be just brand recognition, so I'm in a bit of a quandary here.


Basically what I'm looking for is suggestions of possible brands of similar cost to Royal Canin - or a bit more expensive if that's actually justified, but I'd like to know why I'm spending so much more first.

Also (alternatively) ideas about what ingredients and/or proportions of ingredients to look for or to avoid, and just general guidelines.

If it's not the case that cereal fillers are the disaster I had started to believe, then maybe what I should be doing is just adding one of those fish oils or something like that to her food, and not changing her food at all? Or would that be more expensive than getting the right brand that has all that in it?

Chuchote

@volchitsa, the vet suggested Eukanuba. It can be expensive, but sometimes on Amazon they have it cheap. I also used the cat version for my late and much missed cats.

If money is a huge consideration in this, though, maybe you could do what my mother used to do: combine liver-and-lights (liver and lungs from the butcher's) chopped up and cooked, with porridge. Our standard poodles used to thrive beautifully on that, though the smell was something else!

Galway K9

i will never let my dogs to eat kibble again, "Strive not survive"

www.carnivorekellys.ie i get my food from. next day delievery. pm me if you need discount code i got.

alpha13

certain grains are fine.. it is the crude grain and cereal that causes the problem.
i use eden holistic pet foods for my white shepherd.. i have been using it years now and would never go back.. i had minor issues in the early days with foods and wet/dry etc...
but i was lucky that there was a guy near me who was a pet nutritionist and he recommended one to me..barking heads fusspot.. it was better than what i had been using.. but then he came across the eden and started to bring it in both for all his dogs and to supply.. naturally i was sceptical at first until i seen the benefits on the 2 old dogs my aunt had.. so i gave it a go.. in 2 weeks i seen a MAJOR difference in her.
she was beginning to get tired after long walks alot.. but after the eden everything changed.. here coat got better she leaned up and here energy levle was far better and more consistant plus i get her checked by the vet twice a year and her weight is very consitant...
if you check out titan pet foods you can read up on it if you are interested...
it is about 70 for a 15kg bag.. BUT that lasts me 2 months... so it actually is cheaper.
i have to say i find it great food as does anyone i have given some to try with their own dogs. but it is a personal choice

alpha13

also if you check out titan petfoods and look at the eden you can see the ingredients list and the breakdown on everything..

volchitsa

Chuchote wrote: »

@volchitsa, the vet suggested Eukanuba. It can be expensive, but sometimes on Amazon they have it cheap. I also used the cat version for my late and much missed cats.

If money is a huge consideration in this, though, maybe you could do what my mother used to do: combine liver-and-lights (liver and lungs from the butcher's) chopped up and cooked, with porridge. Our standard poodles used to thrive beautifully on that, though the smell was something else!

I've looked up Eukanuba , Chuchote, and it is on Zooplus, I think I just didn't see it because I was looking for the cereal-free ones. It's actually less than I'm paying for the Royal Canin, so the cost isn't an issue. I was just going by your first post where you talked about gold teeth, so I assumed it was horrendously expensive.

I'm still left wondering if there isn't a more scientific way to go about this and error though. Surely there's something in common to the better brands that I could identify that would give me an idea of which brands are likelier to be what I want. Royal Canin do a bag for every breed, just about - is that just a marketing strategy or is there some science behind it?

volchitsa

muddypaws wrote: »

Personally, and I'll probably get slated, but I think grain free is a fad at the moment, its trendy but there is no real scientific evidence that I am aware of that dogs should avoid grains. Unless someone knows different There are so many new dog foods that have sprung up lately saying that they are grain free, most of them are made in the same factory, just with different packaging.

Muddy paws, I saw from your previous posts that you've worked for dog food sales companies in some way. Do you have any opinion about what is likely to be important in the long term, and isn't just a fad?

What I'm trying to work out is, if someone gives a name of a brand, what that brand has that makes it so good - although I realize that some dogs react differently to some brands, but still there must be some basic logic in how to go about making a good quality dog food.

So for example I see some where they make a point about 70% meat products, and others where they have 20% fruit and veg as their selling point (that might have been 20 and 20 which would mean 60% meat).

Basically what criteria would you be looking for in a good brand of dog food?
And also of course, if you care to, which brands or types do you find good in your own experience - though I gather yours are working dogs and our dog isn't, but perhaps you've come across good ones for family pets too?

Chuchote

volchitsa wrote: »

I'm still left wondering if there isn't a more scientific way to go about this and error though.

MuddyPaws will be able to answer this better than me, from inside the industry. All I know is, every cat or dog I've had throve well on Eukanuba – that's as scientific as I get!

tk123

volchitsa wrote: »

So for example I see some where they make a point about 70% meat products, and others where they have 20% fruit and veg as their selling point (that might have been 20 and 20 which would mean 60% meat).

Ignore the fruit and veg thing. I saw a video recently where based on the order of the ingredients they worked out a whole bag of dog food had less than half of a blueberry in it lol!!! :pac:

The problem you have is... Every dog is different so what suits one mightn't suit another... Some people are happy to feed lower quality foods because it suits their dog... Some people blindly feed it because the vet sells it or recommends it... Also everyone thinks what they feed is best lol so we're all biased

Hills/RC/Eukanuba/Burns etc are IMO complete junk that's overpriced for what it is but I know people who feed them and pick up peanut butter poos and take the dog to have their glands emptied every few weeks - the food cost them €60 so it must be great right?

I try to keep my dog's diets as grain/cereal free as possible because I know my girl gets dirty ears from rice. The do get some treats with cereals in but the balance is just right for her and her ears have been perfect for her last 2 check ups with no cleaning from me. I also had bad experiences with reactions to rice based dry food for my boy which disappeared when I switched to cereal free kibble until I was ready to switch him to a raw diet.

For me there was just too much guesswork involved with the dry foods available at the time and we got a bad scare with the last reaction (lots of blood and he was nearly hospitalised at the vets) so I wanted to try something else. My family had always fed meat/bones/offal to dogs years ago so a raw diet didn't seem faddy or anything new and both dogs are thriving on it. My mum used to collect meat from the abattoir for her uncles dog's when she was a little girl lol so always thought kibble was faddy when we fed it lol!
If you were thinking of feeding it maybe join some FB groups first and read the guides that have - I'd recommend UK ones too because 90% of the people on the Irish ones would be biased towards one supplier so you won't get balanced opinions.

Bunnyslippers

It does depend on how your dog reacts to any brand but the ones higher in cheap bulkers like maize etc are ones to be avoided as dogs digestive systems are just not designed to be able to break them down, meaning half of the food you're paying to feed them leaves the other end of the dog undigested, so no point in feeding it in the first place!
I always look at the meat content, the higher the better, and then at what the rest of the feed is made up of, veg, fruit, rice would be a million times better than grains as the dog can make more use of them as they are easier to break down.

Personally as I have 6 dogs and not a bottomless purse I always put pups on a really good quality high meat content food when they are growing, taste of the wild was what the last rescue pup was on and he did well on it. At around a year or so old I then put them onto the cheaper maintenance food, I get the Bluegrass dog delight nuggets, it's middle of the road and it seems to get on well with all my dogs digestive systems and they look well on it too, so it just depends on what you want to do and how your dog reacts to the food.
As well as the TOW stuff I've also used james wellbeloved and applaws I think once but my dogs didn't like it for some reason, we raised a litter of ridgies on the james wellbeloved kibble as well as goats milk many years ago and they did well on it.

I wouldn't bother with the breed specific brands as they are just a marketing gimmick, every dog is different even of the same breed so it's impossible to say one type and amount of feed will suit every dog in that breed. You should feed according to weight, lifestyle, height, neutered or not etc. and just feed by eye. Cute dog by the way!:D

muddypaws

volchitsa wrote: »

Muddy paws, I saw from your previous posts that you've worked for dog food sales companies in some way. Do you have any opinion about what is likely to be important in the long term, and isn't just a fad?

Really? Could you please quote those posts for me

Chuchote wrote: »

MuddyPaws will be able to answer this better than me, from inside the industry. All I know is, every cat or dog I've had throve well on Eukanuba – that's as scientific as I get!

I'm not 'inside the industry'. I am a self employed dog trainer. I own working dogs, and am always looking at ways to feed them nutritiously and am also bound by the number of dogs I have, so need to be aware of costs. I am also of an age where my childhood dogs lived on tinned food and mixer, along with toast in the morning, and lived very long, healthy lives. So my mind is completely open. I recently fed my dogs raw only for 6 weeks, to see how they did, and, having done that, I have now gone back to a mixture of kibble and meat because of the results I got. Funnily enough, a lot of the dogs got hotspots while on the raw, whether that is due to the food, or summer plants/crawlies I don't know. The poo did reduce, but of course kibble has filler in it, I've just had sardines on toast, I could have done without the toast, would have been healthier for me, but I needed it, couldn't just eat a tin of sardines :eek: and I wouldn't feel as full without that toast.

So I'm afraid, I think its up to individuals to find what works for their dog, they're all different, so I don't think there is one food for all dogs, they all have different needs. If you find a food that your dog does well on, stick with it is usually my advice

volchitsa

Muddypaws : Yes, I had kind of gathered that it was more as a result of your dog-related activities that you'd probably been approached by various dog food companies

(I'm in research myself so I know the way it works - I'm not accusing you of being corrupt or anything! Quite the opposite, I think people who've had a varied approach to something, maybe with contacts in the industry, have a much broader view than someone who is a salesperson for one brand, or indeed who is just a consumer and doesn't necessarily have access to all the information.)

I'm interested in the comment that kibble, with lots of filler, will give bigger dirtier poos. Dogs are carnivores, I suppose, so it's possible that the filler doesn't have the same "filling" effect for them that it does with us, isn't it? So more meat might be the way to go. I can't commit to preparing all her food, as I'm going to be away two to three days a week from about September for the next while, and my o/h would deffo not be up for that. In the long term it might be worth thinking about.

For anyone who mentioned Taste of the Wild : have I missed something or is there any reason to choose one or other of the various versions (high prairie puppy vs Pacific Stream puppy for example)? Do some dogs just prefer the taste of one, and more importantly, if you want to change from one to the other, is it the same procedure as changing brands, or does the fact that they're all TotW make it less complicated to change them over?

muddypaws

volchitsa wrote: »

Muddypaws : Yes, I had kind of gathered that it was more as a result of your dog-related activities that you'd probably been approached by various dog food companies

(I'm in research myself so I know the way it works - I'm not accusing you of being corrupt or anything! Quite the opposite, I think people who've had a varied approach to something, maybe with contacts in the industry, have a much broader view than someone who is a salesperson for one brand, or indeed who is just a consumer and doesn't necessarily have access to all the information.)

I'm interested in the comment that kibble, with lots of filler, will give bigger dirtier poos. Dogs are carnivores, I suppose, so it's possible that the filler doesn't have the same "filling" effect for them that it does with us, isn't it? So more meat might be the way to go. I can't commit to preparing all her food, as I'm going to be away two to three days a week from about September for the next while, and my o/h would deffo not be up for that. In the long term it might be worth thinking about.

For anyone who mentioned Taste of the Wild : have I missed something or is there any reason to choose one or other of the various versions (high prairie puppy vs Pacific Stream puppy for example)? Do some dogs just prefer the taste of one, and more importantly, if you want to change from one to the other, is it the same procedure as changing brands, or does the fact that they're all TotW make it less complicated to change them over?

Haha that did give me a giggle. Muddypaws in brown envelope scandal on discussion forum

tk123

[QUOTE=volchitsa;100730285
For anyone who mentioned Taste of the Wild : have I missed something or is there any reason to choose one or other of the various versions (high prairie puppy vs Pacific Stream puppy for example)? Do some dogs just prefer the taste of one, and more importantly, if you want to change from one to the other, is it the same procedure as changing brands, or does the fact that they're all TotW make it less complicated to change them over?[/QUOTE]

Really it depends on the dog. You're starting with a blank slate so if you like the ingrediants in TOTW pick one flavour and see how he gets on and then before that bag runs out you can try another flavour and mix the two together to be safe. For my dog I found I could chop and change with cereal free brands without any problems. I found TOTW quite small.

cocker5

volchitsa wrote: »

Muddypaws : Yes, I had kind of gathered that it was more as a result of your dog-related activities that you'd probably been approached by various dog food companies

(I'm in research myself so I know the way it works - I'm not accusing you of being corrupt or anything! Quite the opposite, I think people who've had a varied approach to something, maybe with contacts in the industry, have a much broader view than someone who is a salesperson for one brand, or indeed who is just a consumer and doesn't necessarily have access to all the information.)

I'm interested in the comment that kibble, with lots of filler, will give bigger dirtier poos. Dogs are carnivores, I suppose, so it's possible that the filler doesn't have the same "filling" effect for them that it does with us, isn't it? So more meat might be the way to go. I can't commit to preparing all her food, as I'm going to be away two to three days a week from about September for the next while, and my o/h would deffo not be up for that. In the long term it might be worth thinking about.

For anyone who mentioned Taste of the Wild : have I missed something or is there any reason to choose one or other of the various versions (high prairie puppy vs Pacific Stream puppy for example)? Do some dogs just prefer the taste of one, and more importantly, if you want to change from one to the other, is it the same procedure as changing brands, or does the fact that they're all TotW make it less complicated to change them over?

I Feed my guy taste of the wild... we've tried all the flavours - he was on the pacific stream for a good few years he is now on the High prairie.. no issues in switching him over on flavours whatsoever.

He's probably on TOTW over 3 years now and i find it great, he also get some salmon oil each day and some stuff for his joints, he's 11.5 years old now, in the best shape of his life, we do around 35k of walking / hiking per week. so he's very fit and healthy.

heres where i get mine...

http://www.zooplus.ie/shop/dogs/dry_dog_food/taste_of_the_wild/231920

on the same note my sister has a 2 year old cocker, she he her on burns and another grain free dog food - but the digs breath stank of fish... she moved her over to TOTW pacific stream 6 months ago and she has had no issues!

volchitsa

Talking about walking reminds me of something else I wanted to ask, about exercise this time :

she's a very high energy dog, loves running more than anything else I think, though chasing ball is a fairly close second. I completely get the point about limiting her exercise while she's still growing, but I'm wondering if it's essential for the five minute rule to be per day or whether it would be ok if she got a good bit more exercise at the weekend, say.

Along the same lines, is there likely to be a maximum limit for a single session which it might be bad for her to go beyond? (Other than physically exhausting her to the point where she's unwell obviously.)

Chuchote

You limit dogs' exercise? But surely if pups are controlling their own exercise their only limit is when they run off for a drink and flop down laughing? And then probably flake out for an hour and leap up again.

tk123

Chuchote wrote: »

You limit dogs' exercise? But surely if pups are controlling their own exercise their only limit is when they run off for a drink and flop down laughing? And then probably flake out for an hour and leap up again.

Yep hammering away at their growing joints in the process.

You should limit the exercise OP if you want to reduce the risk of joint issues in the future. Excess energy could be caused by diet too so you may find a better quality food will help calm her. You can mentally stimulate her too with puzzles/kongs/scent games/training or with chews or bones.

There's no need to run the legs off a dog like some people do and you'll be doing her and yourself a favour if you can teach her to settle down and relax without having to physically exhaust her.

Chuchote

tk123 wrote: »

Yep hammering away at their growing joints in the process.

Is there research on this with X-rays showing the difference in joints between a pup that races around a lot and one that doesn't?

tk123

Chuchote wrote: »

Is there research on this with X-rays showing the difference in joints between a pup that races around a lot and one that doesn't?

There is indeed and google is your friend.

I've been through 2 leg alignment surgeries with my dog which involved crate rest and extensive rehab afterwards due to damaged growth plates when he was a pup so would never ever take a chance with a growing pup's joints.

DBB

I think it's a little misleading to say there's no research to suggest that dogs can't digest cereals... Whilst there may not be swathes of research on dogs specifically, there is loads and loads of knowledge about the carnivorous diet.
I appreciate that there is a research paper that found that dogs can digest carbs better than wolves as a result of domestication, but to the best of my knowledge it was vegetable-based carbs, rather than cereal-based, though this research was taken by the dog food companies as proving that cereals are fine for dogs. Hmmmm.
To use our own experiences as evidence doesn't really add weight to the argument... I had several dogs growing up that were fed bread, milk, breakfast cereals, gravy etc etc as well as cheap tinned food, who lived to fine old age. But, they had skin issues, phases of horrible diarrhoea etc, none of which we'd ever have attributed to their diet at the time, but which I question now. They tolerated the cereals... But is just tolerance acceptable?
So, if we take it that dogs are carnivores with a sizeable ability to derive nutrition from veggies/omnivory, to conclude from this that they must be able to derive nutrition from cereals, and not suffer ill-effects from cereals (remembering that a sizeable proportion of us human true omnivores struggle with cereals), makes me think of the sciencey adage... absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

alpha13

swimming... easy on the joints.. and they say 10/15 mins of running in the water and swimming is the same as an hour of a good walk...
use the energy but save the joints... and the sea with the salt water is even better...

volchitsa

Chuchote wrote: »

Is there research on this with X-rays showing the difference in joints between a pup that races around a lot and one that doesn't?

She does race around in the garden, I was watching her at it only this morning, and since we don't have our entire lives organized around her (though a fair bit of it all the same!) we don't stop her doing that. She flops down, as you say, or just stops and does something else for a while. The way I understand the question (and maybe I've got this wrong!) is that you don't want to take her out places where she has to keep going to get back home, even though she would walk/run for miles if encouraged to. Playing at home is different though, it's short bursts, and anyway I can't see how to stop her doing that.

Plus she gets bored and starts sighing at us and flopping down repeatedly at our feet in despair if she's stuck in the house and we aren't paying enough attention to her. Or worse, she starts chewing things! So I think it's not feasible to prevent her from moving, it's just a question of trying not to let her push herself to her limits - which she definitely would do if allowed.

volchitsa

alpha13 wrote: »

swimming... easy on the joints.. and they say 10/15 mins of running in the water and swimming is the same as an hour of a good walk...
use the energy but save the joints... and the sea with the salt water is even better...

We can't quite get her to swim, she goes in the water but hasn't yet got enough confidence up to actually swim, she panics a bit when she feels the waves. As I said, she doesn't even like a bath. Not a water dog, I think!

cocker5

Chuchote wrote: »

Is there research on this with X-rays showing the difference in joints between a pup that races around a lot and one that doesn't?

Dont think tk123 is refering to pups who race around.. she is referring to lost of people who walk / run their pups ragged to tire them out.

My cocker is living proof of damaged joints due to excessive exercising when a pup... we used to walk / run the legs of him as he was very hyper... since he turned 7.. hes on lots of joint supplements, he had a limp for a good while and will probably need injections into his shoulders in the future.. he is fine on all his supplements but if i reduce them etc he start to limp again... he is on salmon oil, luposan pellets, tumeric paste everyday....

alpha13

volchitsa wrote: »

We can't quite get her to swim, she goes in the water but hasn't yet got enough confidence up to actually swim, she panics a bit when she feels the waves. As I said, she doesn't even like a bath. Not a water dog, I think!

my one was the same... she would only go in until she started to lose footing..was too smart and made herself afraid.... tried tons of things..even got a dog life vest to let her get confidence...
in the end what actually worked was a calm day at the beach with my friend and his 2 dogs.. we kept throwing the ball in the water for them and as she would not go in i left her to do her own thing.. when she realised we were giving them the attention and they were having fun she wanted to join in... and she did.. had fun running around with them and ever since then she goes in for a paddle or swim no problem great for her to.. especially as she is almost 10 and still very active no signs of hip joint issues or that.. fingers crossed it stay that way

Chuchote

What sent my dog into the water was hero-worship of another dog! She adored him, and wanted to do what he did, so at first she hesitated at the edge, then went in a bit, then proudly swam!

By, oh, I don't know, nine or ten, I suppose, she was getting sore, and an X-ray showed that she'd grown big bone spurs out of her spine. Going strong (fingers crossed) at 15, though she's been on a monthly anabolic steroid shot for about a year and is now getting glucosamine in her food every day.