Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Leroy42

Smalling won't make it long term. He had a good, what, half a season. That was playing in an ultra defensive team and still DDG was our best player as he kept us in so many games.

Smalling is a mid tier level CB, nothing more. I would rate him at the same level of O'Shea. Nothing wrong with him, he can do a job, but not the guy to build a defence around.

He doesn't have the leadership qualities of Vidic or the skills of Rio. For a top team you need great CB's not just adequate

Billy86

Rio was a better defensive leader and organiser than Vidic, though?

Leroy42

Billy86 wrote: »

Rio was a better defensive leader and organiser than Vidic, though?

I think Vidic was the better leader, but between the two of them they were very good.

The point I was making was that Smalling is neither of these two, whether it be leader or organiser

StringerBell

Rio Ferdinand is possibly the greatest centre half to ever play for the club, and I do not say that lightly.

StringerBell

Billy86 wrote: »

Rio was a better defensive leader and organiser than Vidic, though?

I think the only area I would put Vidic ahead of Rio was his willingness to put his head where most wouldn't put their foot! A super player, blood and guts defender which is always popular. Rio was a different class though imo

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think Vidic was the better leader, but between the two of them they were very good.

The point I was making was that Smalling is neither of these two, whether it be leader or organiser

Rio was more Maldini than John Terry if you get my drift in terms of leadership, but the amount of (edit, typo) pointing, clicking and directing players where to go when we had the best defense the club has ever seen was incredible. Visit was more a leader in the "follow me to war" sense and was very good at it, but Rio is one of the best organisers of a backing I've ever seen... and all the while they had one of the calmest, most experienced goalkeepers ever behind them. I genuinely believe that trio has a shout as one of the absolute best cb/cb/gk combos in the history of the game - not just Man Utd, not just England, but the entire history of the sport at club and international level. We knew we were blessed at the time, but the extent has only really shown since.

I think Smalling is good enough to be a starter for us, but probably not enough to be 'the' guy in the back pine if you get my drift. Next season or two will be very interesting for him.

adox

Smalling and Bailly has all the makings of a great partnership.

There is no way on this earth that Smalling is only a mid table defender and is streets ahead of O Shea.

Leroy42

adox wrote: »

Smalling and Bailly has all the makings of a great partnership.

There is no way on this earth that Smalling is only a mid table defender and is streets ahead of O Shea.

Based on? Apart from a good 1st half last year, when he was playing in a basically 10 man defence, he had poor 2nd half, certainly no better than average.

Based on his time at the club, the 1st half of last year should be seen as an outlier rather than the norm. Blind, a CM, is keeping him out of the team.

Bailly looks like the real deal (based on a very small sample size) and will certainly help Smalling, but he would be the lessor of the two.

RobertKK

Smalling does be guilty of excessive holding when there is a corner or a free, and it will end up being costly.
It is something that is being cracked down on.

sky88

StringerBell wrote: »

I think the only area I would put Vidic ahead of Rio was his willingness to put his head where most wouldn't put their foot! A super player, blood and guts defender which is always popular. Rio was a different class though imo

I think rio needed that kind of defender to let him flourish. he always looked better with vidic and then terry for england.

Billy86

sky88 wrote: »

I think rio needed that kind of defender to let him flourish. he always looked better with vidic and then terry for england.

Yep, those two types tend to play great off each other - Vidic always looked far better with Ferdinand beside him also, and Terry with Carvalho. Give and take, but those were three excellent combos due to how good all the players were, how assured and good leaders they all were, and how well their skillsets meshed with each other (Rio/Vidic, Rio/Terry, Terry/Carvalho).

Pro. F

Leroy42 wrote: »

Based on? Apart from a good 1st half last year, when he was playing in a basically 10 man defence, he had poor 2nd half, certainly no better than average.

Based on his time at the club, the 1st half of last year should be seen as an outlier rather than the norm. Blind, a CM, is keeping him out of the team.

Bailly looks like the real deal (based on a very small sample size) and will certainly help Smalling, but he would be the lessor of the two.

Blind is not keeping Smalling out of the team and since Smalling has come in he has been at least as good as Bailly.

Unless he his injuries take off again Smalling will have a great career at the top level. He is an excellent CB.

Leroy42

Pro. F wrote: »

Blind is not keeping Smalling out of the team and since Smalling has come in he has been at least as good as Bailly.

Unless he his injuries take off again Smalling will have a great career at the top level. He is an excellent CB.

You could be right, but I haven't seen it.

No doubt he was very good for the 1st half of last year, but his 2nd half of the season and Euros was nothing special. Getting sent out against CP was just another example of him being caught out when MU went into attacking mode rather than 10 men behind the ball. Now getting sent off on its own doesn't mean you are poor, but it just another example of his poor 2nd half of the season.

I think he isn't a great reader of the game, can be out muscled quite easily, seems to be caught out a number of times on corners and free kicks leading to him pulling and holding alot to try to cover. He doesn't have great passing ability to bring the ball from the back.

Again, he is not useless, I just think he is mid table level. Certainly not Champions or Champions League level.

Currently he is the best we have, given that Bailly is only just in, but I would see him very quickly move down the order next season.

TheDoc

secman wrote: »

Herrera for example, when he got chances he is totally grabbing it with all he has, making it difficult to be left out of the team. His attitude is just superb, I just wish that Memphis would show the same attitude, how else is he going to be a success at OT.

Herrera has had plenty of games where he hasn't impressed and plenty of chances he has squandered. He just gets more leeway from fans then Memphis, which at this point is obvious.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

The article I took the quotes from didn't have that bit you added.

It was from the independent where I read it, you can't check it yourself

Pretty much every publication had that last piece, as some papers mistook the context of loaded gun meaning Memphis is fuming at his support role, whereas others took the quotes meaning exactly what they are. Someone annoyed with his time at United, but ready to put it right.

TheDoc

Leroy42 wrote: »

Smalling won't make it long term. He had a good, what, half a season. That was playing in an ultra defensive team and still DDG was our best player as he kept us in so many games.

Smalling is a mid tier level CB, nothing more. I would rate him at the same level of O'Shea. Nothing wrong with him, he can do a job, but not the guy to build a defence around.

He doesn't have the leadership qualities of Vidic or the skills of Rio. For a top team you need great CB's not just adequate

That is absolutely ludicrous.

Leroy42

TheDoc wrote: »

That is absolutely ludicrous.

People keep saying that but apart from the 1st half of last season, there is no basis apart from hope/expectation. I would argue that the team was so defensively minded last year that any half decent CB was going to thrive.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

Pretty much every publication had that last piece, as some papers mistook the context of loaded gun meaning Memphis is fuming at his support role, whereas others took the quotes meaning exactly what they are. Someone annoyed with his time at United, but ready to put it right.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/manchester-united-transfer-news-memphis-depay-leave-old-trafford-exit-a7345626.html

Nothing about it in that article and that's where I got the quote from.

Anyway, I don't think he has the right mentality to ever succeed at United.will never be in the team ahead of any of our current wingers

bucketybuck

Leroy42 wrote: »

People keep saying that but apart from the 1st half of last season, there is no basis apart from hope/expectation. I would argue that the team was so defensively minded last year that any half decent CB was going to thrive.

If Smalling is some mid table defender, who should we be replacing him with? Who is better?

Lord TSC

Leroy42 wrote: »

People keep saying that but apart from the 1st half of last season, there is no basis apart from hope/expectation. I would argue that the team was so defensively minded last year that any half decent CB was going to thrive.

I agree with the sentiment written here, but disagree he is "mid table"; that's hyperbole. I think, on his day, he is very good. But I don't think he is world class and the reason I listed him earlier in my players I think will leave sooner or later is I believe Jose will want to get as many world class players in as possible, and Smalling won't cut that bill long term.

v3ttel

Leroy42 wrote: »

Getting sent out against CP was just another example of him being caught out when MU went into attacking mode rather than 10 men behind the ball.

All players make mistakes. I have a very vivid memory of Rio Ferdinand trying to scoop the ball over Bellamys head in the 90th minute of a Manchester derby which nearly cost United a win. Does this mean he was a bad defender? No. De Gea is one of the world's best and made one at the weekend. Highlighting one mistake against Palace does not validate your opinion on Smalling.

I have no idea where you are getting this ten men behind the ball stuff from. It seems as if you are confusing a lack of attacking intent, with packing men behind the ball.

Smalling was outstanding last season. De Gea, Smalling and Martial were our only 3 players that performed very well.

It's really strange that I've seen Smalling called "average" and seen that Martial "won't last long" here in recent weeks. It makes me wonder how someone could form these opinions based on ~50 games which were full of evidence to the contrary.

Giggsy11

Leroy42 wrote: »

You could be right, but I haven't seen it.

No doubt he was very good for the 1st half of last year, but his 2nd half of the season and Euros was nothing special. Getting sent out against CP was just another example of him being caught out when MU went into attacking mode rather than 10 men behind the ball. Now getting sent off on its own doesn't mean you are poor, but it just another example of his poor 2nd half of the season.

I think he isn't a great reader of the game, can be out muscled quite easily, seems to be caught out a number of times on corners and free kicks leading to him pulling and holding alot to try to cover. He doesn't have great passing ability to bring the ball from the back.

Again, he is not useless, I just think he is mid table level. Certainly not Champions or Champions League level.

Currently he is the best we have, given that Bailly is only just in, but I would see him very quickly move down the order next season.

That's clearly wrong. Van Gaal teams never played with 10 men behind the ball.

KombuchaMshroom

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/manchester-united-transfer-news-memphis-depay-leave-old-trafford-exit-a7345626.html

Nothing about it in that article and that's where I got the quote from.

Anyway, I don't think he has the right mentality to ever succeed at United.will never be in the team ahead of any of our current wingers

You brand this around a lot, but what is this actually based on?

As Jose said himself not too long ago: "I watched him many times at PSV, and having that player in mind, I want to keep him. Especially as I see a good boy, a good professional. You can see him driving a nice car and think his mind is not on football but that is not the case. I don’t care what people think, I believe in him. He is frustrated with what happened last season when he lost all his confidence but he will be back."

2 key issues highlighted there.
A) That this whole mentality issue with Memphis is media hear say and nonsense. If the manager is happy with his level of professionalism then that's all that matters.
Memphis clearly had his confidence knocked last year, and needs to get it back.

Getting this confidence back and hopefully upping his performances as a result is the key to whether or not he ultimately makes it at United, not this unsubstantiated attitude problem of his.

Pro. F

Leroy42 wrote: »

You could be right, but I haven't seen it.

No doubt he was very good for the 1st half of last year, but his 2nd half of the season and Euros was nothing special. Getting sent out against CP was just another example of him being caught out when MU went into attacking mode rather than 10 men behind the ball. Now getting sent off on its own doesn't mean you are poor, but it just another example of his poor 2nd half of the season.

One example of getting sent off. Plenty of great CBs have been sent off a few times in their careers. I don't agree that he had a poor second half to last season either.

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think he isn't a great reader of the game, can be out muscled quite easily, seems to be caught out a number of times on corners and free kicks leading to him pulling and holding alot to try to cover. He doesn't have great passing ability to bring the ball from the back.

I agree he doesn't have great passing ability, but that isn't the end of the world. Bailly has the same issues with passing too. It can improve in time.

I agree that he has got in trouble on set pieces a few times, but I don't think it has happened enough to point to it as a serious flaw.

His strength in the air, pace and reading of the game are all top notch imo and that's what will carry him along in a career at the top of the game.

DM_7

Herrera has had plenty of games where he hasn't impressed and plenty of chances he has squandered. He just gets more leeway from fans then Memphis, which at this point is obvious.

He has impressed on many occasions in a United shirt, unlike Memphis. Ander does have an obvious desire to succeed, good attitude and work rate even when his form is off or he bounces in and out of the team. Herrera is a comparison that will make Memphis look bad tbh.

The real comparison is Ashley Young who keeps getting ahead of Memphis. What are Young's strengths now his days of potential are behind him, what makes him a good squad option? Application, desire to contribute, ability to play well when appearing sparingly.

Memphis may not have those things or he may, the real difference is experience and its a big problem for him. Its really disappointing that he didn't play all the cup games this season. Young had a lot of football played by the time he joined United, Memphis can't match that.

He is also behind Rashford and Martial who the club need to give chances to for differant reasons (youth team/English/potential and Transfer Fee/build on last year etc). It looks like he joined United too soon.

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

Herrera has had plenty of games where he hasn't impressed and plenty of chances he has squandered. He just gets more leeway from fans then Memphis, which at this point is obvious.

That's a bit disingenuous.

Herrera was poor last season, but had a very solid first season to back him up.

Memphis has had what about 3 good games against dross in the Europa ?

Herrera just like Martial will get more leeway based on actually having produced thus far in thier United careers.

Flint Fredstone

Memphis has been an absolute letdown. No 2 ways about it.
He can still turn things around but it's not looking likely.

bangkok

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

You brand this around a lot, but what is this actually based on?

As Jose said himself not too long ago: "I watched him many times at PSV, and having that player in mind, I want to keep him. Especially as I see a good boy, a good professional. You can see him driving a nice car and think his mind is not on football but that is not the case. I don’t care what people think, I believe in him. He is frustrated with what happened last season when he lost all his confidence but he will be back."

2 key issues highlighted there.
A) That this whole mentality issue with Memphis is media hear say and nonsense. If the manager is happy with his level of professionalism then that's all that matters.
Memphis clearly had his confidence knocked last year, and needs to get it back.

Getting this confidence back and hopefully upping his performances as a result is the key to whether or not he ultimately makes it at United, not this unsubstantiated attitude problem of his.

Mourinho can say what he likes, he is not going to get confidence back by sitting in the stand or on the bench.

Last season being told to play for u21 and not turn up in flash car... He turns up in a rolls Royce going against club wishes.

General attitude on the pitch when he did play as well. Awful.

Lord TSC

Cause Ronaldo and Messi drive auld bangers? :rolleyes:

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

Cause Ronaldo and Messi drive auld bangers? :rolleyes:

The club didn't want him turning up to a game where some of the players earn around 400 pound a week flashing the cash when he himself is struggling in the first team. He went against management orders

DM_7

Yeah the car stuff is bollox.

The chap is loaded and probably took 5 minutes to decide he would buy/lease a Rolls. It means nothing for his on field play.

secman

DM_7 wrote: »

Yeah the car stuff is bollix.

Same can be be said about his attitude and form thus far.... with the prefix: a load of .....

DM_7

secman wrote: »

Same can be be said about his attitude and form thus far.... with the prefix: a load of .....

Form yes.

Attitude questions are a lot of assumptions though.

secman

DM_7 wrote: »

Form yes.

Attitude questions are a lot of assumptions though.

Have you genuinely seen him bust his bollix in any match ?
I would love to have him playing with a swagger, scoring and creating goals for fun, just can't see it happening.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

I'd have young in well before Memphis. Think Young is massively underrated

edgecutter

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I'd have young in well before Memphis. Think Young is massively underrated

He is getting older and Memphis needs time to gel. It is hard having a few minutes here and there. He has the ability to turn it around.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

edgecutter wrote: »

He is getting older and Memphis needs time to gel. It is hard having a few minutes here and there. He has the ability to turn it around.

Does he though, everytime I watch him he passes if whenever there is a player in front of him. Couldn't take on a gate.

Leroy42

edgecutter wrote: »

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I'd have young in well before Memphis. Think Young is massively underrated

He is getting older and Memphis needs time to gel. It is hard having a few minutes here and there. He has the ability to turn it around.

You make it sound like the players just turn up on the day and can only gel by playing matches.

Nonesense. International teams can do it with just a few days together. Obviously the almost telepathic understanding might not be there but the ability to go past your marker, make a decent cross, adhere to the system. This is all done on the training ground.

You should be turning up ready to play not looking to find your feet. He has had a year, get on with it

Billy86

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Does he though, everytime I watch him he passes if whenever there is a player in front of him. Couldn't take on a gate.

How often have you seen him not playing for LVG though? Because what you described is what LVG absolutely insisted upon before anything and everything else.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Billy86 wrote: »

How often have you seen him not playing for LVG though? Because what you described is what LVG absolutely insisted upon before anything and everything else.

Fair enough but Ashley Young did a great job there and kept him out of the team with ease. Young is smart, has great control, doesn't lose the ball. Depay has none of that, he also runs about 4 yards when he gets on the pitch which pisses most people off.

Rayne Wooney

At this stage Depay is going to have to make the most out of the little cameos he gets because there's no way he's getting 3 or 4 games in a row to "gel" with the team or whatever.

He'll be gone by this time next year imo, as long as there isn't a manager change!

Call Me Jimmy

The worrying thing about Depay is he hasn't at all showed any sort of footballing intelligence. There were a handful of games where things came off well technically for him, but other than that, extremely poor.

I would have to have seen his previous season at PSV to judge if he has a future at a big club, but from his time at united it doesn't look good.

TheDoc

Leroy42 wrote: »

People keep saying that but apart from the 1st half of last season, there is no basis apart from hope/expectation. I would argue that the team was so defensively minded last year that any half decent CB was going to thrive.

The comparison between John O Shea and Chris Smalling is what I find ludicrous.

One was blessed to be a squad player way above his station, the other has clearly developed into a good defender.

Smalling would start for any of our rivals.

TheDoc

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I'd have young in well before Memphis. Think Young is massively underrated

Young is the absolute personification of how Ferguson made a ****ing meal of our European dominance.

I don't dislike the man, but he should be nowhere near our club and it's amazing hes stayed aslong as he has.

bucketybuck

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Young is smart, has great control, doesn't lose the ball.

And doesn't score goals. Since 2012 Ashley Young has something like 5 goals total for Manchester United, and approx 11 assists. He's a fine squad player but he has never offered enough of an attacking threat to warrant regular selection.

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

Smalling would start for any of our rivals.

I'm still waiting to hear who we should be replacing him with?

Whats the point in comparing him with Ferdinand and Vidic, why not compare him with his peers in the game today? Do people not realise that both these sentences can be true at the same time:

- Smalling is not as good as Ferdinand was
- Smalling is one of the best defenders in the PL today

Smalling might not be as good as Ferdinand but he is still better than pretty much anybody at any of our rivals, he is still better than pretty much anybody we would spend milions trying to replace him with.

Not as good as Ferdinand? Nobody out there is as good as Ferdinand! Why do you think a club like Chelsea spent actual money on Luiz and still need to keep Terry around...

brinty

bucketybuck wrote:

Whats the point in comparing him with Ferdinand and Vidic, why not compare him with his peers in the game today?

God the Smalling debate

Let's start a separate thread for that too...

OK so his peers
City - kompany is twice the player
Arsenal - I'd take koscielny over him
Spurs - vertonghen and alderwierheld

In Europe
Bonucci,Barzagli and chiellini
Varane,Ramos and pique
Hummels

There's a list of his peers who Chris Smalling is not in the same category as..

Hell Javier Mascherano is on a par with him and he's a midfielder

bucketybuck

brinty wrote: »

God the Smalling debate

Let's start a separate thread for that too...

:rolleyes:

OK so his peers
City - kompany is twice the player
Arsenal - I'd take koscielny over him
Spurs - vertonghen and alderwierheld

In Europe
Bonucci,Barzagli and chiellini
Varane,Ramos and pique
Hummels

There's a list of his peers who Chris Smalling is not in the same category as..

Hell Javier Mascherano is on a par with him and he's a midfielder

Kompany? Even if he wasn't a huge injury concern exactly how would we get him to replace Smalling?
Kosielny? Meh, I'd take him over Jones but he's much of a muchness against Smalling. And again, how exactly would we get him?
The Spurs defenders? I like them both, grand lads. But they aren't Vidic and Ferdinand either.

And then the usual list of European defenders you always hear about, except that I wouldn't swap Smalling for any of them. Pique, Ramos and Hummels especially.

Somebody said we should get rid of the not good enough Chris Smalling, I asked who we would be replacing him with, and you have given me a list of players who we could never get and most of whom aren't much better than him anyway. I continue to think we should just keep Chris Smalling.

StringerBell

It saddens me how unappreciated Mike Smalling is, the man showed his potential in his very first season at the club too it seems easy to forget at this stage, he had his ropey moments but it was clear from the start he could be very, very good. The only thing that held him back was injury and once he was free of that he has been very solid. He has areas to improve on, but he is a damn good centre half and still has room to get better.

brinty

bucketybuck wrote:

Somebody said we should get rid of the not good enough Chris Smalling, I asked who we would be replacing him with, and you have given me a list of players who we could never get and most of whom aren't much better than him anyway. I continue to think we should just keep Chris Smalling.

You asked to compare him to his peers
There's a list of them all if whom are better

I never said any were or are attainable, but Chelsea willing to spend crazy on Bonucci ... I'd match them and let the chips fall.... but then your argument becomes we'd be wasting money and overpaying for him.. am I right??