Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Billy86

Coat22 wrote: »

Its not so long ago since he was described as the "best young defender in Europe" on this thread LOL

He's 23 and has shown no sign of progressing for the last 4 seasons. Granted the poor bloke has been injured a lot but that's the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately.

I think we should grab whatever we can for him now. Wenger would probably adopt him to keep that other great prospect Danny Wellbeck company.

I'd agree. Now the world isn't going to collapse in on itself if we have Jones as our 4th/5th choice CB for the season (especially since I would only put the 38 league games as crucial; the others would be nice to do well in but I would prefer to use for experimenting and blooding young players), but the guy really isn't a very good CB. Rather than 23, he actually turns 25 during the season and has shown as good as no signs at progressing his game in the time he has been here. Smalling by comparison had shown us prior to last year that he could be a good CB (I think it was his first season with us particularly, he was class... could have been his second), but Jones just... doesn't have it. Not at the top level anyway, though I'm sure he'll have a strong upper/mid table career ahead of him.

Nalz

zerks wrote: »

United's transfer spending since the start of the EPL.

is that saying we paid 7.3m for Roy Keane in 93/94?

Pro. F

Coat22 wrote: »

Its not so long ago since he was described as the "best young defender in Europe" on this thread LOL

He's 23 and has shown no sign of progressing for the last 4 seasons. Granted the poor bloke has been injured a lot but that's the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately.

I think we should grab whatever we can for him now. Wenger would probably adopt him to keep that other great prospect Danny Wellbeck company.

You thought Smalling wasn't going to develop into anything and should have been sold at the same age too.

Of course Jones hasn't progressed, he'd barely played. He is still young for a CB, so if he can get over his injuries and get some regular football (say at a loan club) he has a good chance of developing into a quality CB.

Billy86

Nalz wrote: »

is that saying we paid 7.3m for Roy Keane in 93/94?

And who did we buy in 2000/01 for 10mn?

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/manchester-united/english-football-teams/manchester-united-transfers

Billy86

Pro. F wrote: »

You thought Smalling wasn't going to develop into anything and should have been sold at the same age too.

Of course Jones hasn't progressed, he'd barely played. He is still young for a CB, so if he can get over his injuries and get some regular football (say at a loan club) he has a good chance of developing into a quality CB.

He's averaged 28.5 games per season with us, 141 over 5 years, I wouldn't call that barely playing. Smalling by comparison had 153 over his first five years with us.

Coat22

Pro. F wrote: »

Coat22 wrote: »

Its not so long ago since he was described as the "best young defender in Europe" on this thread LOL

He's 23 and has shown no sign of progressing for the last 4 seasons. Granted the poor bloke has been injured a lot but that's the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately.

I think we should grab whatever we can for him now. Wenger would probably adopt him to keep that other great prospect Danny Wellbeck company.

You thought Smalling wasn't going to develop into anything and should have been sold at the same age too.

Of course Jones hasn't progressed, he'd barely played. He is still young for a CB, so if he can get over his injuries and get some regular football (say at a loan club) he has a good chance of developing into a quality CB.

....and I still think Smalling is hugely overrated and not half as good as he's made out to be (although in fairness he has come on in the last 18 months) - be interesting to see how many PL games he gets this year esp if Fonte is brought in also.

As Billy said, he may develop a great career as a mid level defender, but I'm afraid Jose seems to have the same opinion on the CBs he's inherited as I've had for years - good but not good enough

Michael D Not Higgins

Billy86 wrote: »

And who did we buy in 2000/01 for 10mn?

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/manchester-united/english-football-teams/manchester-united-transfers

Some of the numbers appear to be from here http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/alletransfers/verein/985

The prices are all over the place. They have Carrick down for 23 million despite him going for 14 million to 18 million according to press releases of the time.

Edit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/m/man_utd/5233892.stm I long for the days when 14 million was a 'premium'.

TheDoc

There comes a point also where a players reliability relating to injuries, becomes a big part of the problem. We all know deep down why Anderson was kept around, there was clear ability there and flashes of what he could do.

But even though injuries are not the players fault, there comes a point where surely you need to cut lose.

Son Of A Vidic

Coat22 wrote: »

Its not so long ago since he was described as the "best young defender in Europe" on this thread LOL

He's 23 and has shown no sign of progressing for the last 4 seasons. Granted the poor bloke has been injured a lot but that's the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately.

I think we should grab whatever we can for him now. Wenger would probably adopt him to keep that other great prospect Danny Wellbeck company.

Even ignoring his lack of progress, his fragility to injuries over the last five seasons means we really have to move him on. If we can get rid of him and Rojo in the next few weeks, then I'll be a very happy camper.

Pro. F

Billy86 wrote: »

He's averaged 28.5 games per season with us, 141 over 5 years, I wouldn't call that barely playing. Smalling by comparison had 153 over his first five years with us.

I would, especially when you look at the minutes too. For a player trying to develop they need a lot more football than that and a lot more consistency in selections. Ie starting regularly in a settled back-four. Jones hasn't had that.

Smalling also had an extremely rough time of it trying to get his career going over his first five years at the club. He was written off by many, just as Jones is being now.

Pro. F

Coat22 wrote: »

....and I still think Smalling is hugely overrated and not half as good as he's made out to be (although in fairness he has come on in the last 18 months) - be interesting to see how many PL games he gets this year esp if Fonte is brought in also.

As Billy said, he may develop a great career as a mid level defender, but I'm afraid Jose seems to have the same opinion on the CBs he's inherited as I've had for years - good but not good enough

Oh you're still holding thst opinion on Smalling. Cool. We'll bring it up again in a while so.

Jayop

Even the figures for the last 3 years are all wrong on that going by the numbers that are being reported generally.

Since the start of the 2013/14 season.

Fellani 27,500,000
Mata 37,100,000
Herrara 29,000,000
Shaw 27,000,000
Periera 0
Rojo 16,000,000
Di Maria 59,700,000
Blind 13,800,000
Valdes 0
Depay 25,000,000
Darmien 12,700,000
Schweinsteiger 14,400,000
Schneiderlin 25,000,000
Romero 0
Martial 36,000,000
Poole 100,000
Bailly 30,000,000
Ibramovich 0
Mkhitaryan 26,000,000
Pogba 89,000,000

£468,300,000

The figure in that report above is 511,492,000

They've just added 43 million on for the sake of it.

Lithium93_

Another signing made for the Academy team.

https://twitter.com/ManUtdStuff/status/767754498949451776?lang=en

Giggsy11

Coat22 wrote: »

....and I still think Smalling is hugely overrated and not half as good as he's made out to be (although in fairness he has come on in the last 18 months) - be interesting to see how many PL games he gets this year esp if Fonte is brought in also.

As Billy said, he may develop a great career as a mid level defender, but I'm afraid Jose seems to have the same opinion on the CBs he's inherited as I've had for years - good but not good enough

Smalling is not just a mid level defender, he is top class defender. It's just that ManUtd fans have very short memory. Smalling is not in first team as he was suspended for first game and Blind-Bailly played really well, so it's unfair to break that pair.

Coat22

Pro. F wrote: »

Coat22 wrote: »

....and I still think Smalling is hugely overrated and not half as good as he's made out to be (although in fairness he has come on in the last 18 months) - be interesting to see how many PL games he gets this year esp if Fonte is brought in also.

As Billy said, he may develop a great career as a mid level defender, but I'm afraid Jose seems to have the same opinion on the CBs he's inherited as I've had for years - good but not good enough

Oh you're still holding thst opinion on Smalling. Cool. We'll bring it up again in a while so.

Please please do - especially as according to this mornings papers he's eying the exit door "to keep his England career alive"

Coat22

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Coat22 wrote: »

....and I still think Smalling is hugely overrated and not half as good as he's made out to be (although in fairness he has come on in the last 18 months) - be interesting to see how many PL games he gets this year esp if Fonte is brought in also.

As Billy said, he may develop a great career as a mid level defender, but I'm afraid Jose seems to have the same opinion on the CBs he's inherited as I've had for years - good but not good enough

Smalling is not just a mid level defender, he is top class defender. It's just that ManUtd fans have very short memory. Smalling is not in first team as he was suspended for first game and Blind-Bailly played really well, so it's unfair to break that pair.

Smalling was very mediocre for his first 3 or 4 seasons at United and most on here would have happily sold him after the first half of the 14/15 season.

He has progressed hugely since but he's still not at the level Mourinhio expects of his CBs. We all know he was suspended for the first PL game but to suggest he wasn't included last Friday as "it wouldn't be fair" is fantasy stuff - do you really think Jose worries about "fair"?

Barring injury to Bailly he is currently a squad CB.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

There comes a point also where a players reliability relating to injuries, becomes a big part of the problem. We all know deep down why Anderson was kept around, there was clear ability there and flashes of what he could do.

But even though injuries are not the players fault, there comes a point where surely you need to cut lose.

That's reasonable. But it's quite different to what you started out on the topic today with.

Adamocovic

Was upsetting reading back over the thread about the comments and speculation of Phil.

I love the lad. Don't need to say anything more about his injuries but love his passion and old school style at times.

Smalling and Fellaini have both proven people wrong, it's your time now Phil!

Bradz213

Adamocovic wrote: »

Was upsetting reading back over the thread about the comments and speculation of Phil.

I love the lad. Don't need to say anything more about his injuries but love his passion and old school style at times.

Smalling and Fellaini have both proven people wrong, it's your time now Phil!

But that is half them problem. He needs to adapt his game to have any chance of staying fit. He's made of glass so can't be crashing into everyone

Pro. F

Coat22 wrote: »

Smalling was very mediocre for his first 3 or 4 seasons at United and most on here would have happily sold him after the first half of the 14/15 season.

He has progressed hugely since but he's still not at the level Mourinhio expects of his CBs. We all know he was suspended for the first PL game but to suggest he wasn't included last Friday as "it wouldn't be fair" is fantasy stuff - do you really think Jose worries about "fair"?

Barring injury to Bailly he is currently a squad CB.

I don't know if "most" wanted him sold. But there were certainly plenty who were able to see the quality there. You could learn from that episode.

Adamocovic

Coat22 wrote: »

Please please do - especially as according to this mornings papers he's eying the exit door "to keep his England career alive"

Same papers who have linked us with Sneijder every season? :pac:

I wouldn't take everything the papers publish as fact, especially since a quick google search is only really showing me the Sun and Daily Mail as papers running the Smalling leaving story :P

brinty

Jayop wrote:

Even the figures for the last 3 years are all wrong on that going by the numbers that are being reported generally.

Wasn't Bastian only £6m in the end
No point paying any attention to it

bucketybuck

Coat22 wrote: »

most on here would have happily sold him after the first half of the 14/15 season.

That simply isn't true.

brinty

Are all you feckers back from Manchester??
I'm still in hospital,jayo26 that was a poor #prayforbrinty campaign you ran
Cookie was thinking if you and what you said about Zlatan getting a hat trick after the penalry,great laugh

Coat22

Pro. F wrote: »

Coat22 wrote: »

Smalling was very mediocre for his first 3 or 4 seasons at United and most on here would have happily sold him after the first half of the 14/15 season.

He has progressed hugely since but he's still not at the level Mourinhio expects of his CBs. We all know he was suspended for the first PL game but to suggest he wasn't included last Friday as "it wouldn't be fair" is fantasy stuff - do you really think Jose worries about "fair"?

Barring injury to Bailly he is currently a squad CB.

I don't know if "most" wanted him sold. But there were certainly plenty who were able to see the quality there. You could learn from that episode.

Fair enough - "most" is probably not fair.

A lot on here have a hard time biting the bullet on players who are clearly not going to make it at United. 2 years ago it was Wellbeck, last year Wilson and neither have done anything but prove the doubters right since.

Smalling impressed in a team set up to defend with effectively a back 6 playing possession football - I'm not convinced he'll be JMs first choice CB this season but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Jones will turn into Vidic also and Wilson will bag 20 goals at Derby but I doubt it on all counts.

bucketybuck

Everybody is right about Jones by the way. He is indeed a talented defender who with an extended run of games would probably develop into a top class player. And it is indeed too late for him at United, we've waited too long and need to look beyond him. Both things are true.

brinty

Coat22 wrote:

Smalling impressed in a team set up to defend with effectively a back 6 playing possession football - I'm not convinced he'll be JMs first choice CB this season but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Jones will turn into Vidic also and Wilson will bag 20 goals at Derby but I doubt it on all counts.

Coat I'll back you up here
Smalling isn't fit to lace the boots of the great Centre backs we've had, he's a pale imitation who will never be well regarded in Europe or to be in a team aiming to win anything in europe
That's what Jose will aim for next season so far me I fail to see him fitting into Jose's long-term planning

RasTa

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Another signing made for the Academy team.

https://twitter.com/ManUtdStuff/status/767754498949451776?lang=en

He signed back in July

Adamocovic

Obviously I'm biased and want Jones to stay because I'm a big fan of his, but I do understand people wanted to let him go. I hope he gets fit and goes on to become a key member of whatever team he is at, be it ours or elsewhere.

No matter what happens we'll always have this gem.

Jayop

brinty wrote: »

Coat I'll back you up here
Smalling isn't fit to lace the boots of the great Centre backs we've had, he's a pale imitation who will never be well regarded in Europe or to be in a team aiming to win anything in europe
That's what Jose will aim for next season so far me I fail to see him fitting into Jose's long-term planning

I think you're being incredibly harsh on Smalling. He was excellent last season and as really rose to the challenge of being a leader at the back. I think he needs to be partnered with a more dominant player than Blind to get the best out of him and we were exposed a lot last season due to the full backs being poor too. With a settled back four he could go on to great things.

Naturally he's not going to be mentioned in the same breath as some of our great CB's just yet, he needs several very good seasons under his belt to get that kind of praise.

secman

Getting rid of Jones is a win win situation, we drop a wad on our wage bill and our medical expenses take a nose dive...... and absolutely no impact on jersey sales.

Another take on it we will never miss what we never had

Adamocovic

secman wrote: »

Getting rid of Jones is a win win situation, we drop a wad on our wage bill and our medical expenses take a nose dive...... and absolutely no impact on jersey sales.

Speak for yourself!

beno619

TheDoc wrote: »

Er...yeah I do.

There is a pretty big difference between Phil Jones, achiever of nothing, and Bastian Schweinsteiger, achiever of everything. I've come to accept the logic of removing Schweinsteiger from plans going forward, now that I realise Carrick's contract offer is a token gesture for time served, and that he won't be near the first team for any meaningful games.

There's a big difference between Phil Jones, who's contributed to recent success under Fergie and puts his body on the line for the cause and Schweinsteiger who has done sweet **** all.

Giggsy11

Coat22 wrote: »

Smalling was very mediocre for his first 3 or 4 seasons at United and most on here would have happily sold him after the first half of the 14/15 season.

He has progressed hugely since but he's still not at the level Mourinhio expects of his CBs. We all know he was suspended for the first PL game but to suggest he wasn't included last Friday as "it wouldn't be fair" is fantasy stuff - do you really think Jose worries about "fair"?

Barring injury to Bailly he is currently a squad CB.

Smalling was never mediocre. He was always good defender but with injury problems.

Adamocovic

Personally don't understand how or why people would want Smalling out or think he isn't good enough.

A while ago a lot were giving out wanting him out of the team saying he hadn't proven himself yet and he was injury prone, too old to wait etc. Then he goes on has the best season of his career and wins player of the year for us, but still that isn't enough for some people it would seem.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Smalling does this year and I highly doubt Mourinho wants him out.

ericzeking

Smalling had potential but only came good with an extended run in the team at CB. Jones has never had such a run. I would be slow to discard him, he has lots of potential.

People are so quick to discard players. 'Buy all the players'....

We have a manager now who has shown he can improve guys in a short period, I'd like to see what he can do with Jones, Jones has all the tools.

I wouldn't have thought he'd be anywhere near a top earner either.

Adamocovic

ericzeking wrote: »

Smalling had potential but only came good with an extended run in the team at CB. Jones has never had such a run. I would be slow to discard him, he has lots of potential.

People are so quick to discard players. 'Buy all the players'....

We have a manager now who has shown he can improve guys in a short period, I'd like to see what he can do with Jones, Jones has all the tools.

I wouldn't have thought he'd be anywhere near a top earner either.

Jones currently has a year left in his contract. He also gets paid less than Bailly, Darmian, Smalling, Shaw, Blind, Valencia and Rojo. Thats only the other defenders and not taking into account any other position (note he gets paid the same as Romero) So as you said he isn't near the top earners.

Jayop

The problem for Jones is his place in the pecking order. As a general rule it's a position that doesn't see much rotation or even substitutions being made barring injury. Sadly for Jones now he's at the very best 4th choice behind Bailly, Blind & Smalling. Blind never seems to get injured so he's going nowhere. I don't think Bailly has any history of being injury prone and Smalling has hopefully left that behind him.

Realistically how many games will he get this season in 4th place? he had 37 apps in all comps over the last 2 seasons. Last season he had 13 apps with only 7 starts. Smalling and Blind had 55 starts each.

jayo26

brinty wrote: »

Are all you feckers back from Manchester??
I'm still in hospital,jayo26 that was a poor #prayforbrinty campaign you ran
Cookie was thinking if you and what you said about Zlatan getting a hat trick after the penalry,great laugh

Well at least I tried pal and to be honest I was having too much Craic to give a sh1t about ya anyway got back from Manchester alright tho ha the car had a good spin.

secman

Adamocovic wrote: »

Speak for yourself!

Okay 2 jerseys down for new kit

bucketybuck

ericzeking wrote: »

People are so quick to discard players. 'Buy all the players'....

Quick? The lad has had five seasons, just how long are we supposed to wait?

I don't care if he stays as 4th or 5th place defender, but there is absolutely no way he should be considered as anything more than that, because we simply cannot rely on him to be available when needed.

Billy86

Pro. F wrote: »

I would, especially when you look at the minutes too. For a player trying to develop they need a lot more football than that and a lot more consistency in selections. Ie starting regularly in a settled back-four. Jones hasn't had that.

Smalling also had an extremely rough time of it trying to get his career going over his first five years at the club. He was written off by many, just as Jones is being now.

I took a check on the minutes though, and he has played 5,805 of 13,680 - 42.43% . You cannot call playing in close to half our league minutes 'barely' getting any playing time, especially when so much of the time missed has been through injuries that it is fair to assume are going to continue at this stage. Especially when he has had 22 European games despite us missing a season, and 13 FA/league cup games on top of that (not bothered looking up the minutes since Squawka doesn't cover them and it takes longer to calculate the teams total minutes than 38x90x[years] ).

I wanted Smalling to be given another shot because I had seen him play very well previously, and it looked more of a mental/confidence problem with him than with Jones where the problem is more to do with concentration, positioning, and him leaving his brain in the locker room far, far too often. When he was young I was ok enough with this as people expect CBs to be too tuned in too early these days; often times it takes time to slowly work those things out and develop them. But the problem there is, he is every bit as lacking in those areas as he was as a teenager. There has been as close to zero progress in his area of by far biggest weakness, and it's been so long that there is little-to-no cause to believe he ever will develop it.

He seems a good guy, and I'm not saying he's a bad player. Again, the world wouldn't end by any means were he fighting with TFM for the CB spot behind Smalling/Bailly/Blind, especially as we really only have 38 'must win' games this season and could should be treating the other three competitions as far lesser priorities. But he's not going to ever be a starter here, or good enough to be in heavy rotation, and once the right option comes around (be it an experienced guy on the cheap or a young up-and-comer for bigger money) we should look to offload.

Don't get me wrong though, he's no Rojo!

Adamocovic

Jayop wrote: »

The problem for Jones is his place in the pecking order. As a general rule it's a position that doesn't see much rotation or even substitutions being made barring injury. Sadly for Jones now he's at the very best 4th choice behind Bailly, Blind & Smalling. Blind never seems to get injured so he's going nowhere. I don't think Bailly has any history of being injury prone and Smalling has hopefully left that behind him.

Realistically how many games will he get this season in 4th place? he had 37 apps in all comps over the last 2 seasons. Last season he had 13 apps with only 7 starts. Smalling and Blind had 55 starts each.

I don't think anyone is arguing with the fact he has it up against him and with injuries he hasn't been a regular.

It is just a case that if he was to leave people would understand it but fans who are also big fans of Jones will be disappointed he is going.

Now at 24 he has the talent and time, most don't dispute that the big thing has always be with him needing a consistent spell fit in order to hold a place down and his decision making in games which normally causes him to get injured.

He is down the pecking order with us but if Mourinho likes what he is seeing from him, thinks he can work with him and decides to hold on to him he surely should get chances in the cup or Europe to try stake his claim.

Anyway we'll have to wait and see what happens. With Fergie rating him highly Mourinho might be swayed to see how he gets on. Be interesting to see how it unfolds.

Adamocovic

Billy86 wrote: »

I took a check on the minutes though, and he has played 5,805 of 13,680 - 42.43% . You cannot call playing in close to half our league minutes 'barely' getting any playing time, especially when so much of the time missed has been through injuries that it is fair to assume are going to continue at this stage. Especially when he has had 22 European games despite us missing a season, and 13 FA/league cup games on top of that (not bothered looking up the minutes since Squawka doesn't cover them and it takes longer to calculate the teams total minutes than 38x90x[years] ).

Well ProF was referring to Jones getting consistent play in the squad, as he referred to it "starting regularly as part of a settled back-four". I'll take your word for the minutes stats but I wouldn't call 42.3% minutes as those of one who has been starting regularly.

As you said injuries have hampered him, he has missed around 84 games in one way or another from injuries since he signed for us, baffling I know.

Jones has always had the talent, as many have already said the problem however is whenever he has gotten himself into the position of starter he's failed to have a continued stretch due to his injuries.

Now maybe Jones will always be hampered by getting injured but I would hope that he works his game around and looks after himself, be it for our benefit or another teams.

adox

I honestly don't understand certain posters opinion on Smalling. He's been Utds best centre back for at least the last two seasons and one of, if not, the best centre back in England. He's an England regular. The lad is class.

He is still Utds best CB. That may change in time with thmy development with Bailly but even if it does the defence should be built around those two.

I expect Jose to have Smalling as first choice CB sooner rather than later.

sky88

adox wrote: »

I honestly don't understand certain posters opinion on Smalling. He's been Utds best centre back for at least the last two seasons and one of, if not, the best centre back in England. He's an England regular. The lad is class.

He is still Utds best CB. That may change in time with thmy development with Bailly but even if it does the defence should be built around those two.

I expect Jose to have Smalling as first choice CB sooner rather than later.

I feel at times smalling is a great player like the first half of season but in the second half of the season he just kept getting steadily worse and worse and became brainless at times.

bucketybuck

adox wrote: »

I honestly don't understand certain posters opinion on Smalling. He's been Utds best centre back for at least the last two seasons and one of, if not, the best centre back in England. He's an England regular. The lad is class.

I'd like to hear who they think would be better than Smalling, especially considering the dearth of good defenders these days.

adox

bucketybuck wrote: »

I'd like to hear who they think would be better than Smalling, especially considering the dearth of good defenders these days.

The thing is, I get the Fellaini debate. I think people who don't rate him are completely wrong but can understand why they don't rate him. The same with the Rooney debate. The same with the Blind debate.

The Smalling one I can't get my head around. It's like saying lets get rid of De Gea and get a different goalie in.

adox

sky88 wrote: »

I feel at times smalling is a great player like the first half of season but in the second half of the season he just kept getting steadily worse and worse and became brainless at times.

But that's not true. He didn't have a season of two halves. His form tailed off towards the latter part of the season. He was brilliant up to that.

He was also playing in a back four where his CD partner was a midfielder, the right back was a winger and ththe left back was any random player that Van Gaal threw in.

Maximus Alexander

adox wrote: »

It's like saying lets get rid of De Gea and get a different goalie in.

Well now that you mention it, he is a callow youth who is only a minute away from his next calamitous error.