Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Adamocovic

adox wrote: »

The thing is, I get the Fellaini debate. I think people who don't rate him ar completely wrong but can understand why they don't rate him. The same with the Rooney debate. The same with th Blind debate.

The Smalling one I can't get my head around. It's like saying lets get rid of De Gea and get a different goalie in.

My problem with the Smalling debate is the fact that despite doing what people criticised him for not doing he is still not wanted by many.

It's not so long ago people wanted Smalling out. At the time he had been inconsistent and failing to nail the spot down. Arguments were made against his ability to perform consistently for the season and to become a regular starter. At the time these arguments were valid but obviously a large amount of us wanted him to stay due to his potential.

Then he comes out has the best season of his career, wins player of the year for the club, doing exactly what he was criticised for not doing, by cementing a spot in the team and performing consistently, but still people are not happy and want him out. It makes no sense to me whatsoever either.

jaykay74

Hope it works out for CBJ, he showed flashes of what he can do last season but I guess chances would be limited this year.

Jayop

Adamocovic wrote: »

I don't think anyone is arguing with the fact he has it up against him and with injuries he hasn't been a regular.

It is just a case that if he was to leave people would understand it but fans who are also big fans of Jones will be disappointed he is going.

Now at 24 he has the talent and time, most don't dispute that the big thing has always be with him needing a consistent spell fit in order to hold a place down and his decision making in games which normally causes him to get injured.

He is down the pecking order with us but if Mourinho likes what he is seeing from him, thinks he can work with him and decides to hold on to him he surely should get chances in the cup or Europe to try stake his claim.

Anyway we'll have to wait and see what happens. With Fergie rating him highly Mourinho might be swayed to see how he gets on. Be interesting to see how it unfolds.

Yeah totally. If he happens to be fit when the games come around that Jose might try him in then he needs to impress this time.

Trigger

Oh Arsenal :pac:

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/767787875257741312

brinty

Giggsy11 wrote:

Phil Jones was never mediocre. He was always good defender but with injury problems.

Fyp

brinty

jayo26 wrote:

Well at least I tried pal and to be honest I was having too much Craic to give a sh1t about ya anyway got back from Manchester alright tho ha the car had a good spin.

Good to hear old friend
Hope ms jayo26 enjoyed it just as much
Loved you clip for the penalty

brinty

adox wrote:

I honestly don't understand certain posters opinion on Smalling. He's been Utds best centre back for at least the last two seasons and one of, if not, the best centre back in England. He's an England regular. The lad is class.

An England regular
Says it all
Who put them out of the Euro's???

Lithium93_

astradave wrote: »

Oh Arsenal :pac:

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/767787875257741312

Oh that won't go over well in the Arsenal thread....

jaykay74

astradave wrote: »

Oh Arsenal :pac:

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/767787875257741312

25m :eek:

what did we sell him for ? less than 10m surely

ShaneU

astradave wrote: »

Oh Arsenal :pac:

https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/767787875257741312

Football has officially gone mad

Billy86

Adamocovic wrote: »

Well ProF was referring to Jones getting consistent play in the squad, as he referred to it "starting regularly as part of a settled back-four". I'll take your word for the minutes stats but I wouldn't call 42.3% minutes as those of one who has been starting regularly.

As you said injuries have hampered him, he has missed around 84 games in one way or another from injuries since he signed for us, baffling I know.

Jones has always had the talent, as many have already said the problem however is whenever he has gotten himself into the position of starter he's failed to have a continued stretch due to his injuries.

Now maybe Jones will always be hampered by getting injured but I would hope that he works his game around and looks after himself, be it for our benefit or another teams.

I wasn't saying it was starting regularly, but 42.3% of minutes is a lot closer to 'regular' minutes than 'barely played' at all. It's not as if he was being brought on in the 85th minute of half his games - he only has 21 (at a glance) sub appearances from those 140 total games. And quite worryingly, in the 120-odd starts, he has had to come off in the first half a total of 9 times.

To give quick comparisons, Herrera played in 50.2% of our league minutes the last two seasons, Young in 40.5%, Fellaini in 39.0%, Welbeck in his last two seasons had 40.5%. There has been nothing from him to justify as much, never mind more than, the amount of playing time these guys have had.

Personally I don't think Jones has the talent, to be honest. He had the potential years ago, but he has failed to hit it and while I'm OK with him fighting with TFM for the fourth spot as all that matters is the league, I don't see him getting there at this stage. His weaknesses have barely improved (if even at all) since he was 19. I do agree that he hopefully gets past the injuries though, seems a pretty normal and reasonably likable kind of guy - the type of person you're almost happy to know makes 50k a week (the cnut! :mad: ), and he could do very well for an Everton level of team for quite a while. I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, but I just don't see any kind of future for him at Old Trafford.

Debil

Did Ferguson ever give Jones a run of games as CB when he was fit?

Jayop

Debil wrote: »

Did Ferguson ever give Jones a run of games as CB when he was fit?

he played 39 times one season and 41 times another. Now I know that doesn't take into account position and he was shoved around a lot, but surely in those two seasons he got a decent amount of games in at Cb.

jayo26

brinty wrote: »

Good to hear old friend
Hope ms jayo26 enjoyed it just as much
Loved you clip for the penalty

Thanks pal she did indeed.

brinty

astradave wrote:

Oh Arsenal

Hope we've a sell on clause in his sale

Pro. F

Billy86 wrote: »

I took a check on the minutes though, and he has played 5,805 of 13,680 - 42.43% . You cannot call playing in close to half our league minutes 'barely' getting any playing time, especially when so much of the time missed has been through injuries that it is fair to assume are going to continue at this stage. Especially when he has had 22 European games despite us missing a season, and 13 FA/league cup games on top of that (not bothered looking up the minutes since Squawka doesn't cover them and it takes longer to calculate the teams total minutes than 38x90x[years] ).

I wanted Smalling to be given another shot because I had seen him play very well previously, and it looked more of a mental/confidence problem with him than with Jones where the problem is more to do with concentration, positioning, and him leaving his brain in the locker room far, far too often. When he was young I was ok enough with this as people expect CBs to be too tuned in too early these days; often times it takes time to slowly work those things out and develop them. But the problem there is, he is every bit as lacking in those areas as he was as a teenager. There has been as close to zero progress in his area of by far biggest weakness, and it's been so long that there is little-to-no cause to believe he ever will develop it.

He seems a good guy, and I'm not saying he's a bad player. Again, the world wouldn't end by any means were he fighting with TFM for the CB spot behind Smalling/Bailly/Blind, especially as we really only have 38 'must win' games this season and could should be treating the other three competitions as far lesser priorities. But he's not going to ever be a starter here, or good enough to be in heavy rotation, and once the right option comes around (be it an experienced guy on the cheap or a young up-and-comer for bigger money) we should look to offload.

Don't get me wrong though, he's no Rojo!

42% of league minutes over four seasons is shag all for a young CB to develop. You can dispute the term "barely played," but the exact term is not important. He has played infrequently enough that you wouldn't expect his game to have shown much improvement. Give him a season of regular football (probably out on loan, and it's only going to happen if he can put his injuries behind him) and then judge him.

You say that you thought Smalling had a mental/confidence problem, but then describe Jones's problems as "concentration, positioning, and him leaving his brain in the locker room" - things which all exactly the type of things affected by the mental/confidence aspects of the game. I don't agree with you on Jones's positioning being a problem by the way, it's quite good when he's playing CB.

Debil

Jayop wrote: »

he played 39 times one season and 41 times another. Now I know that doesn't take into account position and he was shoved around a lot, but surely in those two seasons he got a decent amount of games in at Cb.

I don't know how many games he played there to be honest, but no CB at his age should have been pushed around as much as he was. It definitely impacted his development.

The CBs that people admire always played in their position when they were breaking through. This was a huge error by Ferguson in my opinion.

Liam McPoyle

Just copped that we are late kick off on Saturday. I'm in a lecture til about half 4 and thought I was gonna miss it.

Noice!

Pro. F

Billy86 wrote: »

To give quick comparisons, Herrera played in 50.2% of our league minutes the last two seasons, Young in 40.5%, Fellaini in 39.0%, Welbeck in his last two seasons had 40.5%. There has been nothing from him to justify as much, never mind more than, the amount of playing time these guys have had.

You are confusing what he needs in order to develop and what he has justified being given at United. I'm not saying he should have been given that game time, I'm saying he needs it before we can properly judge his quality. Obviously his injuries are going to prevent that if they keep going at the same rate, but if not, then a loan spell where he'd be a regular starter would be appropriate before we decide he isn't good enough for United. People thinking they've seen enough of him already to decide he doesn't have the required quality are wrong about how CBs develop.

Billy86

Pro. F wrote: »

42% of league minutes over four seasons is shag all for a young CB to develop. You can dispute the term "barely played," but the exact term is not important. He has played infrequently enough that you wouldn't expect his game to have shown much improvement. Give him a season of regular football (probably out on loan, and it's only going to happen if he can put his injuries behind him) and then judge him.

You say that you thought Smalling had a mental/confidence problem, but then describe Jones's problems as "concentration, positioning, and him leaving his brain in the locker room" - things which all exactly the type of things affected by the mental/confidence aspects of the game. I don't agree with you on Jones's positioning being a problem by the way, it's quite good when he's playing CB.

The exact term is very important. There is a huge difference between saying someone 'barely played' and saying someone 'did not play the majority of our overall minutes'. At that standard, we would need to have been starting him in 25+ league games every year... which would have been to our detriment. And that's the problem. Jones did nothing to merit getting any more than 42% of our minutes, and he really hasn't even merited that 42%.

Yes, Smalling showed the awareness and ability before, and he has shown it since again - his issue looked to be mental, in that he didn't look as high on confidence. Jones issue is not confidence related, it is related to understanding the game in front of him and how it is developing, as well as what opposing players are doing or about to do. He is simply not good at that, and is not really any better now at 24 than he was at 19. And that's the major issue.

He has not been good enough and has not really shown any signs of improving despite getting as much playing time as many of our other prominent squaddies. The solution is not now, and never was, to shoe horn him into the team even more at the detriment of everyone else more deserving, on the off chance that maybe he might be good at some point. He'll do OK for 4th/5th for the year, and barring some highly unexpected and immediate turnaround, will be gone next summer. That's my take on it, anyway.

EDIT: On the second post just above, hadn't seen that one. I wouldn't mind loaning him either, but in the same breath I would prefer having him fighting with TFM for the 4th CB spot over Rojo, who I'd almost be happy to see gone on a free tomorrow.

Pro. F

Jayop wrote: »

he played 39 times one season and 41 times another. Now I know that doesn't take into account position and he was shoved around a lot, but surely in those two seasons he got a decent amount of games in at Cb.

Nope. You can check here. Not that many games at CB and not that much consistency of starts and teammates in the CB games he did get.

Obviously his injuries are a huge factor, but I think it's pretty clear that a young CB playing as a regular starter for a smaller club has a better chance of developing than one who has been signed for a big club and so finds himself in and out of the team.

bucketybuck

Debil wrote: »

This was a huge error by Ferguson in my opinion.

And a regular one in fairness, the likes of Wes Brown, O'Shea, Silvestre all suffered the same problem of not reaching their full CB potential due to playing out of position very frequently. You could argue that for them it was a fair trade but it did have an effect.

Its not all Fergies fault though, he is gone 3 years now so Jones can't blame him too much for his current status.

jayo26

I don't see why the argument is about jones the biggest factor over his quality is his fitness it don't matter of he played 30 or 40 games when he was 20 or 22 they were bonus years as such no one expects a center back to be top notch at 20 or 21 if they are not they can still turn into a top class center back.

He needs to play 40 games now to show his quality and either sink or swim that's why I think it's best for United to loan him instead of selling him for a few million on the off chance he can stay fit.

Pro. F

Billy86 wrote: »

The exact term is very important. There is a huge difference between saying someone 'barely played' and saying someone 'did not play the majority of our overall minutes'. At that standard, we would need to have been starting him in 25+ league games every year... which would have been to our detriment. And that's the problem. Jones did nothing to merit getting any more than 42% of our minutes, and he really hasn't even merited that 42%.

Yes, Smalling showed the awareness and ability before, and he has shown it since again - his issue looked to be mental, in that he didn't look as high on confidence. Jones issue is not confidence related, it is related to understanding the game in front of him and how it is developing, as well as what opposing players are doing or about to do. He is simply not good at that, and is not really any better now at 24 than he was at 19. And that's the major issue.

He has not been good enough and has not really shown any signs of improving despite getting as much playing time as many of our other prominent squaddies. The solution is not now, and never was, to shoe horn him into the team even more at the detriment of everyone else more deserving, on the off chance that maybe he might be good at some point. He'll do OK for 4th/5th for the year, and barring some highly unexpected and immediate turnaround, will be gone next summer. That's my take on it, anyway.

EDIT: On the second post just above, hadn't seen that one. I wouldn't mind loaning him either, but in the same breath I would prefer having him fighting with TFM for the 4th CB spot over Rojo, who I'd almost be happy to see gone on a free tomorrow.

I am very doubtful of the reliability of differentiating between a young CB low on confidence (form) and one lacking in footballing intelligence, when they are playing as infrequently as Jones. Especially, in this case, since Jones's CB positioning has been good.

With regard to the bolded, I'm not trying to predict what will happen. I'm only posting what I think would be best to do.

FutureGuy

Dear Jose,
Love the transfers and really like what you're doing with the loan moves.

Love Futureguy

Pro. F

Coat22 wrote: »

Fair enough - "most" is probably not fair.

A lot on here have a hard time biting the bullet on players who are clearly not going to make it at United. 2 years ago it was Wellbeck, last year Wilson and neither have done anything but prove the doubters right since.

Smalling impressed in a team set up to defend with effectively a back 6 playing possession football - I'm not convinced he'll be JMs first choice CB this season but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Jones will turn into Vidic also and Wilson will bag 20 goals at Derby but I doubt it on all counts.

I'm pretty sure the doubters were saying that none of our rivals would have Welbeck in their squads. Then we sold him to a rival who went on to finish above us in the league for two seasons while he was an important squad player for them.

I've no strong opinion on Wilson, but I don't remember there being much debate about him being loaned out.

Smalling has turned out to be class. You will eventually see that.

jayo26

FutureGuy wrote: »

Dear Jose,
Love the transfers and really like what you're doing with the loan moves.

Love Futureguy

You have actually been made redundant now with jose at the club

Lord TSC

Blackett has joined Reading on a permanent deal.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Football-News/2016/Aug/Tyler-Blackett-joins-Reading-from-Manchester-United.aspx?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=post&utm_campaign=ManUtd

Debil

bucketybuck wrote: »

And a regular one in fairness, the likes of Wes Brown, O'Shea, Silvestre all suffered the same problem of not reaching their full CB potential due to playing out of position very frequently. You could argue that for them it was a fair trade but it did have an effect.

Its not all Fergies fault though, he is gone 3 years now so Jones can't blame him too much for his current status.

Those players certainly didn't have the potential that Jones did though. Ferguson believed he could be a great. He believed he had a Duncan Edwards on his hands, and he still didn't play him there.

bangkok

Wilson, borthwick Jackson, varela, Blackett, McNair, januzaj,love, Powell, Valdes all gone from squad now either on loan or sold. Good business

brinty

jayo26 wrote:

You have actually been made redundant now with jose at the club

FutureGuy will never be made redundant

adox

brinty wrote: »

An England regular
Says it all
Who put them out of the Euro's???

Wow what a rebuttal!

"An England regular, says it all"

You really do post some nonsense on the odd occasion one of your posts is actually discussing football on this thread.

bangkok

Don't say we have moved onto smalling now?!

There is no debate there, he is one of the best centre halves in Europe

Sand

bangkok wrote: »

Wilson, borthwick Jackson, varela, Blackett, McNair, januzaj,love, Powell, Valdes all gone from squad now either on loan or sold. Good business

With the exception of CBJ (maybe), none of those were recognised squad players. They were youth players trying and mainly failing to get into the squad and vast majority were not playing from Feb 2016 onwards - Wilson, Blackett and Powell didn't play in 2016 at all. They were loaned out or sold for buttons.

bucketybuck

Debil wrote: »

Those players certainly didn't have the potential that Jones did though. Ferguson believed he could be a great. He believed he had a Duncan Edwards on his hands, and he still didn't play him there.

Phil Jones dreams of having the potential that Wes Brown had.

Cookie_Dough

brinty wrote: »

Are all you feckers back from Manchester??
I'm still in hospital,jayo26 that was a poor #prayforbrinty campaign you ran
Cookie was thinking if you and what you said about Zlatan getting a hat trick after the penalry,great laugh

I'm back too. Had a great weekend. It was a pity he didn't get the hattrick in the end The atmosphere in the stadium was great as was the game. Sorry to hear you're still in hospital :eek: at least you might get a bit of extra time off work. #prayforbrinty

VW 1

bangkok wrote:

There is no debate there, he is one of the best centre halves in Europe

I believe there is a debate. It is currently ongoing.

I support the Jones loan move if it happens. He needs firstly to stay fit and secondly to get minutes. He won't get the minutes required at United to develop to his potential. His ceiling is quite high but he is not likely to get anywhere near it based on the past 3 seasons.


Either way, if he is loaned, does well and stays fit we may get decent fee or a squad player.

If he is loaned, is rubbish, we get the measly return on him we are used to getting for selling players.

brinty

adox wrote:

Wow what a rebuttal!

Don't like my posts you know what to do

This is the worst English team in years so being a regular in its failure is no measure of success ..

I think Smalling while great early last season showed his true colours when it mattered
Own goal v Everton in fA cup semi
Sent of in the final
Own goal v Bournemouth in last league game

Stam,johnsen,dolly and Daisy, Vida and Rio never made consistent errors after four/five years at the club like Smalling did

That's my opinion on him

brinty

bangkok wrote:

There is no debate there, he is one of the best centre halves in Europe

Agh Bangkok come off it he's not even in the top 20

Three Italian's
Hummels
Pique
Ramos
Varane


That's not even trying

Liam McPoyle

brinty wrote: »

Agh Bangkok come off it he's not even in the top 20

Three Italian's
Hummels
Pique
Ramos
Varane


That's not even trying

While I don't consider him world class, he is in the top 5 center halves currently playing in the PL IMO. Having said that, the standard isn't that great.

I'd place him in the top 20 in Europe.

Robson99

Debil wrote: »

Those players certainly didn't have the potential that Jones did though. Ferguson believed he could be a great. He believed he had a Duncan Edwards on his hands, and he still didn't play him there.

Wesley Brown was better than all of them IMO. Top class centre half

bucketybuck

I do think that there is potential there in Jones and normally I would say that the loan move would be the best option for us.

But right now, with the lack of good defenders around and the flood of money pouring into the game I think United should be looking to sell, because I think if Woodward has anything about him he should be getting a hefty fee for Jones, regardless of the last few seasons.

My biggest disappointment with the Wellbeck deal wasn't that he was sold, but that we got such a crap fee for him. A young English international striker with a good work ethic, a good scoring record and loads of potential? £16m was a bull**** fee for him and I would expect the club to drive a far better deal for Jones if selling.

There are lots of clubs out there with money to spend who would see Phil Jones as an investment worth making. £47m for Stones! £25m for Jonny Evans! In this market if Woodward can't sell the potential in a 24 year old England international that Alex Ferguson once described as a club legend in the making then he can't sell anything.

Even with the injury record there are managers and clubs that will see it as a gamble worth taking, and if we are talking £25m+ for a squad defender then that makes it an easy decision in my mind.

beno619

brinty wrote: »

Agh Bangkok come off it he's not even in the top 20

Three Italian's
Hummels
Pique
Ramos
Varane


That's not even trying

Smalling is a better defender than Hummels & Pique.

They are better footballers but I'd take a proper defender everyday of the week.

Billy86

Robson99 wrote: »

Wesley Brown was better than all of them IMO. Top class centre half

I think Smalling is now at the level Brown was once he got it together, only he plays more like Rio and Brown plays more like Vidic! I was a bit unhappy when we got Vidic in to replace Brown but it turned out to be worth it... still, Brown was playing well that year and if Vidic never happened he would have been a very good partner for Rio.

Kind of how I feel about Smalling. He's good, but not great. Last year he was very good, though some factors like how we played worked to his advantage. He'll be grand, but if a significant upgrade or someone who looks to have the potential to surpass him in 2-3 years comes available, we should go for it.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

I do think that there is potential there in Jones and normally I would say that the loan move would be the best option for us.

But right now, with the lack of good defenders around and the flood of money pouring into the game I think United should be looking to sell, because I think if Woodward has anything about him he should be getting a hefty fee for Jones, regardless of the last few seasons.

My biggest disappointment with the Wellbeck deal wasn't that he was sold, but that we got such a crap fee for him. A young English international striker with a good work ethic, a good scoring record and loads of potential? £16m was a bull**** fee for him and I would expect the club to drive a far better deal for Jones if selling.

There are lots of clubs out there with money to spend who would see Phil Jones as an investment worth making. £47m for Stones! £25m for Jonny Evans! In this market if Woodward can't sell the potential in a 24 year old England international that Alex Ferguson once described as a club legend in the making then he can't sell anything.

Even with the injury record there are managers and clubs that will see it as a gamble worth taking, and if we are talking £25m+ for a squad defender then that makes it an easy decision in my mind.

Surely since we've sold him it's ended up a better deal for us than it has for Arsenal? He scored 8 goals in his first season and 5 in the next, playing a part in only 15 matches last season. I wouldn't take him back for £10m, would you??

Crimson King

Any indication on how much Blackett was sold for?

Robson99

Billy86 wrote: »

I think Smalling is now at the level Brown was once he got it together, only he plays more like Rio and Brown plays more like Vidic! I was a bit unhappy when we got Vidic in to replace Brown but it turned out to be worth it... still, Brown was playing well that year and if Vidic never happened he would have been a very good partner for Rio.

Kind of how I feel about Smalling. He's good, but not great. Last year he was very good, though some factors like how we played worked to his advantage. He'll be grand, but if a significant upgrade or someone who looks to have the potential to surpass him in 2-3 years comes available, we should go for it.

I like Smalling but just dont think he is anywhere near good enough on the ball to be likened to Rio

adox

brinty wrote: »

Don't like my posts you know what to do

This is the worst English team in years so being a regular in its failure is no measure of success ..

I think Smalling while great early last season showed his true colours when it mattered
Own goal v Everton in fA cup semi
Sent of in the final
Own goal v Bournemouth in last league game

Stam,johnsen,dolly and Daisy, Vida and Rio never made consistent errors after four/five years at the club like Smalling did

That's my opinion on him

I didn't use it solely as a measure of his success. In fact you used it as justification for your dismissing of him as a good CB with your lazy "says it all" comment.

Also on the above, you say he was great early season. he was great for most of the season. Saying he was great early season is just being disingenuous.

Also using two own goals as measures of a player showing his "true colours" is laughable.

Show me a player that hasn't made mistakes. Saying Smalling has made "consistent errors" especially in the last two seasons is just misleading and wrong.

One last thing. The "don't like my post you know what to do" line. Like seriously?

Billy86

Robson99 wrote: »

I like Smalling but just dont think he is anywhere near good enough on the ball to be likened to Rio

Talking in terms of style of play, not ability. Rio for me is the best CB Man Utd has ever had, and probably the world's best (not named Nesta) of the last 15-odd years.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely since we've sold him it's ended up a better deal for us than it has for Arsenal? He scored 8 goals in his first season and 5 in the next, playing a part in only 15 matches last season. I wouldn't take him back for £10m, would you??

With all due respect, what he has done since is irrelevant to the point made.