Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Korat

I really want to thank the scousers for putting a gloss on last nights game. Although I said before the game I'd be happy with a draw, I still would have liked an entertaining match with a more adventurous approach from Utd but when I see LFC spitting blood about the way we played I see the psychological damage that was done and wouldn't have had us play any other way.

It seems to have hurt more than if they had been outplayed on the night and hopefully the team feels equally dispirited at how easily they were shut down. Little seeds of doubt to chip away at the confidence. A poor game but the result has turned out to be more than I hoped for.

alchemist33

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Playing tight away to the big teams and trying to nick it on the break is exactly how Mourinho has won multiple league titles. It's also how Fergie won multiple league titles. Under Fergie we rarely won the "top 4 league", but we beat everyone else.

TheDoc wrote: »

I always maintain that leagues are won not against your rivals, but against the bottom half of the league. Who drops the least points, wins. I know there is potentially loads of ways to form that argument, but it's the one I firmly believe in and use.

Van Gaal had a tremendous record against direct rivals, but the slip-ups against weaker teams kept costing us. Arsenal have a poor record against rivals, yet they stomp those beneath them.

so for me in the grand scheme of things last nights point won't really matter. What would come to haunt us is Stoke,Watford and any other nonsense result we get in the season. (Looking at you West Brom and Sunderland)

Dropping points to Liverpool or Chelsea in the current run really might not make much of a diff in the grand scheme of things. Drop points against Burnley, that is where you lose leagues.

There's bound to be some stats somewhere but i seem to remember title-winning teams who did it by hammering the minnows and being tight against the big boys, and other who took points from their rivals. If it's an actual plan to do it by the former method, I'm not convinced it'll be effective. I really think we'll need to beat some of the big teams to win. But if Jose plans to adapt through the season, cool. I don't give a damn about style and the bolloxology of "the United Way" as long as we're playing winning football.

sky88

astradave wrote: »

Ask yourself this question and be honest.. when was the last time you seen Man Utd continuously play swashbuckling football?

Honestly 2008 or 2009 maybe.

the style of play has gotten worse every since then. This has coincided with the standard in the premier league dropping.

5starpool

stankratz wrote: »

This is what he really said...



You guys are seething and sore today. You really should be directing a lot of this post-match analysis and concern inwards.

How am I being sore? I'm answering a post by an Arsenal fan who is probably happy how it went.

ericzeking

Lads there is a lot of mention of Fergie playing negatively or 'like that' in certain scenarios. And he did play negatively and to contain, he played guys to go man to man (Park or Fletcher), he played defenders in midfield (Neville or Johnson), he played 5 in midfield an awful lot away from home in Europe, he played Ronaldo down the middle when it was clear he wouldn't track back adequately. But rose tinted glasses or no rose tinted glasses he never played like last night, there were stretches when it was a flat six across the 18 yard line. That is why we offered nothing in attack, Fergie always offered something in attack, on the break no matter how much containing he was doing. Our paciest, most in form attacker, Rashford was playing as an auxillary right back and cramped up from all the tracking and defending. Fergie would have left him on the halfway line, he always threatened, always.
We had one fluffed chance, they had as dodgy looking a keeper as I've seen in a long time and we never tested him with crosses or shots. Yes, they are in form but they also don't have the ammunition we have, they don't have the most expensive player in the world, they don't have Zlatan, they don't have Rashford. They finished 8th or something last year, they aint Peps Barca.
We should have gone for them but we didn't, that is what Fergie would have done with these players, yes he would have tried to kill the game and atmosphere early and been organised but he also would have had a go. That was the beauty of the man.

crkball6

ericzeking wrote: »

Lads there is a lot of mention of Fergie playing negatively or 'like that' in certain scenarios. And he did play negatively and to contain, he played guys to go man to man (Park or Fletcher), he played defenders in midfield (Neville or Johnson), he played 5 in midfield an awful lot away from home in Europe, he played Ronaldo down the middle when it was clear he wouldn't track back adequately. But rose tinted glasses or no rose tinted glasses he never played like last night, there were stretches when it was a flat six across the 18 yard line. That is why we offered nothing in attack, Fergie always offered something in attack, on the break no matter how much containing he was doing. Our paciest, most in form attacker, Rashford was playing as an auxillary right back and cramped up from all the tracking and defending. Fergie would have left him on the halfway line, he always threatened, always.
We had one fluffed chance, they had as dodgy looking a keeper as I've seen in a long time and we never tested him with crosses or shots. Yes, they are in form but they also don't have the ammunition we have, they don't have the most expensive player in the world, they don't have Zlatan, they don't have Rashford. They finished 8th or something last year, they aint Peps Barca.
We should have gone for them but we didn't, that is what Fergie would have done with these players, yes he would have tried to kill the game and atmosphere early and been organised but he also would have had a go. That was the beauty of the man.

It's impossible to know what Fergie would have done.
Rashford had as much opportunity on the right as Rooney often had under Ferguson and early doors Rashford made some poor desicions and put in poor balls.

Pogba was pretty poor and ibra missed a sitter.

None of the above is Jose's fault and the exact same thing could have easily happened under Fergie because he setup exactly the same way. The difference in Ferguson's time he had a ton of pace. We have less pace and more muscle so each manager is using what they have to the best they can in the given circumstances.

I think you're forgetting all the times you might have cursed Fergie for formations, team selections and tactics and it's easy to forget when he brought so much silver ware. We're sitting here in judgment after 8 games of a squad that has players from 4 managers 2 who were awful.

bucketybuck

Its as if people think Jose has had 28 games as manager, instead of just 8 league games and a few in the cups.

Mantis Toboggan

ericzeking wrote: »

Lads there is a lot of mention of Fergie playing negatively or 'like that' in certain scenarios. And he did play negatively and to contain, he played guys to go man to man (Park or Fletcher), he played defenders in midfield (Neville or Johnson), he played 5 in midfield an awful lot away from home in Europe, he played Ronaldo down the middle when it was clear he wouldn't track back adequately. But rose tinted glasses or no rose tinted glasses he never played like last night, there were stretches when it was a flat six across the 18 yard line. That is why we offered nothing in attack, Fergie always offered something in attack, on the break no matter how much containing he was doing. Our paciest, most in form attacker, Rashford was playing as an auxillary right back and cramped up from all the tracking and defending. Fergie would have left him on the halfway line, he always threatened, always.
We had one fluffed chance, they had as dodgy looking a keeper as I've seen in a long time and we never tested him with crosses or shots. Yes, they are in form but they also don't have the ammunition we have, they don't have the most expensive player in the world, they don't have Zlatan, they don't have Rashford. They finished 8th or something last year, they aint Peps Barca.
We should have gone for them but we didn't, that is what Fergie would have done with these players, yes he would have tried to kill the game and atmosphere early and been organised but he also would have had a go. That was the beauty of the man.

Bang on the money

Korat

In the past our first team was supplemented by reliable if unspectacular players like May, Park, Fletcher and P. Nev who could do a job on certain teams but now there's an accumulation of shi'te players who couldn't be relied on to be fit, despite rarely playing, even less perform consistently to a high standard when called on. Rojo, Jones, Memphis for example.

Fellaini has improved to the point where he's worth keeping in the squad but I hope there's more TFMs and Rashfords coming through the ranks. Even Jose must know that in the current climate it's impossible to replace the dead wood with purchases alone.

Cantona's Collars

The heat maps suggest we weren't camped in our own box like some suggest. A lot of aimless passing by Liverpool,we did enough of that under LVG. Own the ball and do nothing. A game again on Thursday, then Sunday and another Wednesday, Jose was never going to lose last night. Imagine the hysteria had Zlatan headed that chance into the far corner rather than across the goal. We'd all be crowing about a tactical masterclass.

Cantona's Collars

Mata and Young want to know who wore these to training.....Scarlet for whoever did.

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

The heat maps suggest we weren't camped in our own box like some suggest. A lot of aimless passing by Liverpool,we did enough of that under LVG. Own the ball and do nothing. A game again on Thursday, then Sunday and another Wednesday, Jose was never going to lose last night. Imagine the hysteria had Zlatan headed that chance into the far corner rather than across the goal. We'd all be crowing about a tactical masterclass.

De Gea doesn't make those two saves and we lose 2-0 are we saying oh well, no way we could have ever coped with Liverpool so what else could be done?

Are we expecting and cool with Mourinho doing that plan at Stamford Bridge next weekend?

I don't know if I'll be overly confident or comfortable with that plan against Chelsea. But yet on the surface, isn't that what we fully expect Mourinho to do?

bangkok

ericzeking wrote: »

Lads there is a lot of mention of Fergie playing negatively or 'like that' in certain scenarios. And he did play negatively and to contain, he played guys to go man to man (Park or Fletcher), he played defenders in midfield (Neville or Johnson), he played 5 in midfield an awful lot away from home in Europe, he played Ronaldo down the middle when it was clear he wouldn't track back adequately. But rose tinted glasses or no rose tinted glasses he never played like last night, there were stretches when it was a flat six across the 18 yard line. That is why we offered nothing in attack, Fergie always offered something in attack, on the break no matter how much containing he was doing. Our paciest, most in form attacker, Rashford was playing as an auxillary right back and cramped up from all the tracking and defending. Fergie would have left him on the halfway line, he always threatened, always.
We had one fluffed chance, they had as dodgy looking a keeper as I've seen in a long time and we never tested him with crosses or shots. Yes, they are in form but they also don't have the ammunition we have, they don't have the most expensive player in the world, they don't have Zlatan, they don't have Rashford. They finished 8th or something last year, they aint Peps Barca.
We should have gone for them but we didn't, that is what Fergie would have done with these players, yes he would have tried to kill the game and atmosphere early and been organised but he also would have had a go. That was the beauty of the man.

Great post, we never threatened Liverpool at all last night, fergie would have told players to make life hell for that new goalkeeper.

sReq | uTeK

bangkok wrote: »

Great post, we never threatened Liverpool at all last night, fergie would have told players to make life hell for that new goalkeeper.

Its a good thing you have a direct line to Fergie and can relay exactly what he thought after the game.

sReq | uTeK

TheDoc wrote: »

De Gea doesn't make those two saves and we lose 2-0 are we saying oh well, no way we could have ever coped with Liverpool so what else could be done?

Are we expecting and cool with Mourinho doing that plan at Stamford Bridge next weekend?

I don't know if I'll be overly confident or comfortable with that plan against Chelsea. But yet on the surface, isn't that what we fully expect Mourinho to do?

If IBRA scores that header and we win 1-0 does everyone call it a masterful performance.......

See what I did there ?;

astrofool

Playing the most in form team away in a derby match, Jose had his tactics spot on, and there was enough chances to win, and limited Liverpool to a few shots, more clinical in front of goal and it would have been a snatch and grab. Fellaini won't be there next season, and there'll be another striker instead of Rooney, but Mourinho does seem to be building a team he can win trophies with. Don't think he will care about the possession stats.

sky88

For all the talk of Jose only being 8 games in i was expecting the team to be playing better then we have been.

City and Everton have got new managers at the same time as united and have taken to the new managers ideas and play much better then us at the minute. Tbh i think last night was the first time the players did what jose wanted for the whole game. so hopefully its the start of some progression.

bangkok

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Its a good thing you have a direct line to Fergie and can relay exactly what he thought after the game.

I'd say he thought it was awful defensive to look at.

Look at the way de gea was targeted by teams when he first arrived or the Liverpool goalie in the last few games before the United game and all the errors he was making. You are suppose to target a teams weak link, we never did once last night

bangkok

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

If IBRA scores that header and we win 1-0 does everyone call it a masterful performance.......

See what I did there ?;

If de gea doesn't make them 2 saves we lose 2 nil and everyone says it was an awful performance.......


See what I did there?

crkball6

bangkok wrote: »

You are suppose to target a teams weak link, we never did once last night

Who is to blame for this?

Rashford put in some horrific crosses.
When the keeper was put under pressure and blew it/ Ibra didn't keep himself onside.
Ibra missed the sitter from the cross from pogba,
The few times young got down the left he ran it into 3 players.

So if the idea is to beat the press and limit liverpool and the chances you get in the odffesive 3rd your players make a balls of it. Who's fault is it?

If he opened up and we got beaten 4-3 but managed to put some preasure on the goal keeper would you be happy?

Your view is too simplistic.

Fergie's last away game at Anfield

Liverpool 1 - United 2

The pace in this united and the current united team are worlds apart.
we brought on the best mid fielder in the world and then more pace with welbeck and hernandez.

Liverpool had 53% even though they were down to 10 men from the 39th minute . United played 10 men behind the ball and we won it with a late peno from RVP.

The result meant no one really cared.

Comparing Fergie to Jose in these instances is utterly pointless.

Liverpool

Starting lineup:
GoalkeeperPepe Reina
DefenderMartin Kelly
Defender/Centre backDaniel Agger
Defender/Centre backMartin Skrtel
Defender/Full backGlen Johnson
MidfielderJoe Allen
MidfielderSteven Gerrard
MidfielderJonjo Shelvey
Midfielder/ForwardRaheem Sterling
ForwardFabio Borini
ForwardLuis Suarez

United

Starting lineup:
GoalkeeperAnders Lindegaard
Defender/Right back Rafael Da Silva
DefenderJonny Evans
Defender/Centre backRio Ferdinand
Defender/Left backPatrice Evra
MidfielderMichael Carrick
MidfielderRyan Giggs
MidfielderShinji Kagawa
Midfielder Nani
MidfielderAntonio Valencia
Forward RVP

adox

Fergie could have just as easily been in charge of that performance last night. Plenty of dull "defensive" performances from him in his time.

Also don't get the Van Gaal comparison. The display was nothing like a Van Gaal performance.

The performance and result against Stoke would annoy me a lot more than last night, despite numerous chance being made against them.

sReq | uTeK

bangkok wrote: »

If de gea doesn't make them 2 saves we lose 2 nil and everyone says it was an awful performance.......


See what I did there?

No and sadly the post was lost on you too. I'm responding to an opinion with a hypothesis that was likely but not something I believe.

You're responding to a hypothesis with a hypothesis.

Take your time on this one

ElChe32

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

No and sadly the post was lost on you too. I'm responding to an opinion with a hypothesis that was likely but not something I believe.

You're responding to a hypothesis with a hypothesis.

Take your time on this one

The square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides.

No wait hang on..

Lord TSC

adox wrote: »

Also don't get the Van Gaal comparison. The display was nothing like a Van Gaal performance.

Ironically, it was Pool who had the LVG-like preformance; dominating possession but two shots on target and a 0-0 draw on home ground :P

Mantis Toboggan

I see alot of people saying Liverpool are the in form team in the league, they're in 4th position after 8 games, not exactly running away with the league title now, wonder how that is considered "in form" Liverpool are an average team and will not finish in the top 4 this season, we showed them too much respect last night by settling for the draw and not bothering to attack.

Harry Palmr

Tyson Fury wrote: »

I see alot of people saying Liverpool are the in form team in the league, they're in 4th position after 8 games, not exactly running away with the league title now, wonder how that is considered "in form" Liverpool are an average team and will not finish in the top 4 this season, we showed them too much respect last night by settling for the draw and not bothering to attack.

4th place and could have gone top last night - it's quite tight. One defeat in 8 games (the 2nd game of the season - so that 6 games without defeat in the PL and 8 in all comps) 18 PL goals scored. Top or joint top of every metric in terms of attack - possession, shots, shots on target, goals, sprints and so on. There a graphic somewhere about that sort of thing.

You showed your respect by not allowing Liverpool the space to beat you (you were also lucky with Sturridge starting - he's rubbish in Klopp's set up.)

adox

Tyson Fury wrote: »

I see alot of people saying Liverpool are the in form team in the league, they're in 4th position after 8 games, not exactly running away with the league title now, wonder how that is considered "in form" Liverpool are an average team and will not finish in the top 4 this season, we showed them too much respect last night by settling for the draw and not bothering to attack.

City haven't won in their last three outings yet are top of the league.

LiamoSail

adox wrote: »

Fergie could have just as easily been in charge of that performance last night. Plenty of dull "defensive" performances from him in his time.
.

There was, but never as clinically defensive as last night. Last night was a Mourinho performance, not a United one.

Under Ferguson, when United played defensively, their threat from the counter was always present, you always felt they were capable of going forward and getting something. Last night it seemed as if the extent to which the players were disciplined to defend nullified that threat to a large degree.

It was an effective performance, but damn it's miserable to watch

Harry Palmr

Btw Utd play Liverpool again tonight in the U23 League - I bet no busses are parked It's on TV and er other places.

Flint Fredstone

Ferguson was putting out teams that he signed or brought through every player on the pitch for the majority of his reign.

He knew his players inside out. Jose is only there a wet day. Pointless comparison

adox

LiamoSail wrote: »

There was, but never as clinically defensive as last night. Last night was a Mourinho performance, not a United one.

Under Ferguson, when United played defensively, their threat from the counter was always present, you always felt they were capable of going forward and getting something. Last night it seemed as if the extent to which the players were disciplined to defend nullified that threat to a large degree.

It was an effective performance, but damn it's miserable to watch

The thing is though, and it's a narrative that is being spun in various places, that wasn't a typical Utd performance under Mourhino so far.

It was smart tactics IMO, especially against a team that are in form and have had some very impressive results and the style of football that they play.

Sure I would have liked to see more attacking opportunities but despite that I think last nights performance was one of the most cohesive from a Utd team since Fergie left.

adox

And seriously, for those Liverpool supporters that are genuine and not having a bit of rivalry "Bantz" I'd advise you to watch some of the other Utd games under Mourhino. You will soon realise that last night was the exception rather than the norm.

Oh and I'd expect more of the same from Utd on Sunday.

LiamoSail

adox wrote: »

The thing is though, and it's a narrative that is being spun in various places, that wasn't a typical Utd performance under Mourhino so far.

It was smart tactics IMO, especially against a team that are in form and have had some very impressive results and the style of football that they play.

Sure I would have liked to see more attacking opportunities but despite that I think last nights performance was one of the most cohesive from a Utd team since Fergie left.

I didn't mean a typically Mourinho at Utd performance, I just meant a Mourinho performance in general.

It was a pragmatic approach that proved to be effective, but it was alien to what you'd expect of a United team.

adox

LiamoSail wrote: »

I didn't mean a typically Mourinho at Utd performance, I just meant a Mourinho performance in general.

It was a pragmatic approach that proved to be effective, but it was alien to what you'd expect of a United team.

You know what, although I was disappointed a bit by the lack of chances created I still found it one of the most satisfying performances since Fergie left. It's the first time that the team have looked like a team, together in their plan and execution and not sleep walking their way through a performance. There was a purpose about them.

Mourhino has had a slow enough start at Utd but last night, although not flashy, gave me great hope that foundations are being built to start a resurgence again.

Also I'd disagree that it was a performance alien to Utd but sure that's just a difference of opinion and could be argued until the cows come home.

bucketybuck

LiamoSail wrote: »

Under Ferguson, when United played defensively, their threat from the counter was always present, you always felt they were capable of going forward and getting something.

Ideally the organisation and discipline we saw last night would have been allied with a pacy counter attacking threat but the simple fact is that we don't have that capability right now. Zlatan or Rooney won't carry the ball the length of the field, Rashford was poor and shouldn't be relied upon anyway, Martial, Pogba and Depay perhaps have the capability but definitely aren't showing the form, and anybody who thinks Ashley Young was there to get goals or assists needs their head examined.

Pace and power when counter attacking, after 8 league games its an area that clearly we are lacking in. But one thing is clear, the foundation in terms of passing, movement, interplay, defensive structure and team shape, everything else is there, there is definite progress to be seen. If you want to see it of course.

jayo26

Pity they don't have tackle of the season similar to having goal of the season. Valencia tackle was defending perfection.

caviardreams

jayo26 wrote: »

Pity they don't have tackle of the season similar to having goal of the season. Valencia tackle was defending perfection.

Not bad for a right winger too

Gwan the Val.

jayo26

caviardreams wrote: »

Not bad for a right winger too

Gwan the Val.

Yep and that's not even mentioning David's save which was top drawer too and anders performance was sublime.

Did anyone notice ander going over to Pogba when he was getting up from a challenge I'm not sure what pool player it was against but ander seemed to tell pogba to get back down it was great bit of leadership and calmness.

Lithium93_

Based on Ander Herrera's performance last night, I'd say he'd make a great Captain.

PhlegmyMoses

adox wrote: »

You know what, although I was disappointed a bit by the lack of chances created I still found it one of the most satisfying performances since Fergie left. It's the first time that the team have looked like a team, together in their plan and execution and not sleep walking their way through a performance. There was a purpose about them.

Mourhino has had a slow enough start at Utd but last night, although not flashy, gave me great hope that foundations are being built to start a resurgence again.

Also I'd disagree that it was a performance alien to Utd but sure that's just a difference of opinion and could be argued until the cows come home.

This is exactly it. I haven't seen us truly execute a plan like that since Fergie. It showed that the players are listening and are capable of holding out when needed. I now know that type type of performance is in our locker when we eventually get back to the business end of the CL. Next up is taking care of the little teams. The Stoke and Leicester games showed that we can create the chances, but necessarily finish them. The only game that I have truly been disappointed by so far this season is the Watford game. We were out fought and out thought.

StringerBell

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Based on Ander Herrera's performance last night, I'd say he'd make a great Captain.

So would Jose

caviardreams

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Based on Ander Herrera's performance last night, I'd say he'd make a great Captain.

Could totally see this. Like when he was reminding Mata about the corner routine vs Leicester - seems to step up and is not afraid to be a leader. But also has the passion for it too. He can fight over it with Val when we sell Rooney this summer

Mantis Toboggan

bucketybuck wrote: »

Ideally the organisation and discipline we saw last night would have been allied with a pacy counter attacking threat but the simple fact is that we don't have that capability right now. Zlatan or Rooney won't carry the ball the length of the field, Rashford was poor and shouldn't be relied upon anyway, Martial, Pogba and Depay perhaps have the capability but definitely aren't showing the form, and anybody who thinks Ashley Young was there to get goals or assists needs their head examined.

Pace and power when counter attacking, after 8 league games its an area that clearly we are lacking in. But one thing is clear, the foundation in terms of passing, movement, interplay, defensive structure and team shape, everything else is there, there is definite progress to be seen. If you want to see it of course.

For all the money spent you're saying we don't have players with pace and power?

Zlatan is not suited to counter attacking football and should have been hauled off last night to change it up but Jose seems very reluctant to change it up top, this will be interesting going forward and zlatans performances don't improve.

Not sure how you say Rashford was poor in fact he very very good for an 18 year old who was effectively playing right back. Surely he's the man who should have been put up top.

The defensive structure and discipline was good to see but for me it was offset with our cynical fouling and time wasting.

Lithium93_

caviardreams wrote: »

Could totally see this. Like when he was reminding Mata about the corner routine vs Leicester - seems to step up and is not afraid to be a leader. But also has the passion for it too. He can fight over it with Val when we sell Rooney this summer

Hmm I'd make Ander captain, make Valencia the vice captain, But that's just me.

Kerrydude1981

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Hmm I'd make Ander captain, make Valencia the vice captain, But that's just me.

Same here Herrera is a ready made captain

There was no way as fast Lallana is that he was beating Herrera in that race for the ball last night in the second half

Mars Bar

https://twitter.com/Channel4/status/788395900162932736

markcahill1985

Lithium93_ wrote:

Hmm I'd make Ander captain, make Valencia the vice captain, But that's just me.

Valencia hasn't a word of English. Surely would rule him out

bucketybuck

Tyson Fury wrote: »

For all the money spent you're saying we don't have players with pace and power?

Go on, who was going to be the counter attacking threat for us?

By the way, the money spent is totally irrelevant so if thats your argument I won't bother reading any further.

Kerrydude1981

markcahill1985 wrote: »

Valencia hasn't a word of English. Surely would rule him out

He could just stare at fellas

Trigger

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

He could just stare at fellas

He has been smiling too much for my liking lately!