Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

DM_7

Pro. F wrote: »

It would be impossible for a player who is awful at tacklng to be a good centre-back. That's the point.

Obviously a Rio Ferdinand would be much better to have as he was excellant all round. Blind still had a good season last time out, some games didn't suit but many others saw him perform to a high standard.

There are many games that, if United get to the level they want to, where a player like Blind will be better than a Vidic (for example). Where United will be managing the game and need a player who reads the game and can step out of defence with the ball. A player better at dealing with a counter attack.

If United dominate midfield, control the game then Blind's attributes can be more effective/useful than Smalling.

If your playing West Ham, like the example provided earlier then you wouldn't want Blind defending set pieces against Andy Carroll. You may rely on another player to mark him or pick another CB.

The idea that a CB must play most games is another thing that could well be changing in football and see more rotation depending on the opponents, needs of a game.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Rio was an excellent tackler and made tackles plenty often enough.

Rarely tackled though as his positioning was so good

GSPfan

As United fans should we not be arguing the levels of shhiteness of our rivals players instead of constantly criticising our own.

jayo26

GSPfan wrote: »

As United fans should we not be arguing the levels of ****eness of our rivals players instead of constantly criticising our own.

Nope because then we're called obsessed

GSPfan

jayo26 wrote: »

Nope because then we're called obsessed

I guess.

Just think its so weird to slaughter your own teams players so much.

Insect Overlord

GSPfan wrote: »

I guess.

Just think its so weird to slaughter your own teams players so much.

That's what happens when boredom sets in between games, I guess. Is the Europa League draw tomorrow?

Adamocovic

GSPfan wrote: »

I guess.

Just think its so weird to slaughter your own teams players so much.

I'm not sure if id call it slaughtering.

Every fan wants what's best for the club. If they see a player as a weakness or someone they think is not helping the club or even making it worse then of course that fan we'll speak up with their concerns.

In every team sport around the world it's fairly common for the fans to be the biggest critics of their team.

During breaks with nothing else to talk about these debates will continue to happen.

Liam McPoyle

GSPfan wrote: »

I guess.

Just think its so weird to slaughter your own teams players so much.

Read any of the superthreads though, its not a United fan only phenomenon.

Its par for the course.

They are the players we watch most so when they don't meet our expectations its going to be talked about.

bmcc10

An File wrote: »

That's what happens when boredom sets in between games, I guess. Is the Europa League draw tomorrow?

Ye hopefully United draw Dundalk easy travelling and a good pay day for Dundalk

GSPfan

Look I understand criticism but using stats and in depth analysis with comparisons and well thought out arguments seems a bit more than just saying "Memphis needs to get the finger out".

Fellaini gets slaughtered by at least one guy in here. Rooney gets slaughtered by a dozen people. Memphis gets slaughtered when he plays. Blind and Smalling take a good battering the second they don't do everything perfectly.

Anyway I don't want to kick off a debate on it but it just seems odd to me that we (no one in particular) can be so harsh about so many players and enjoy watching United at all.

bangkok

GSPfan wrote: »

As United fans should we not be arguing the levels of shhiteness of our rivals players instead of constantly criticising our own.

Great idea, bring the whole group together as well....

I'll start.... Alberto Moreno Liverpool, one of the worst left backs in their history

Jack wilshere, still living off that 1 game v Barcelona and he's a tosser

Jordan Henderson worst captain in liverpools history

Theo Walcott

Adam lallana

DM_7

GSPfan wrote: »

As United fans should we not be arguing the levels of shhiteness of our rivals players instead of constantly criticising our own.

Its a thread about Manchester United, not players of other clubs.

dr.bollocko

bangkok wrote: »

Great idea, bring the whole group together as well....

I'll start.... Alberto Moreno Liverpool, one of the worst left backs in their history

Jack wilshere, still living off that 1 game v Barcelona and he's a tosser

Jordan Henderson worst captain in liverpools history

Theo Walcott

Adam lallana

Costa seems like a nice bloke tho.

StringerBell

bangkok wrote: »

Rarely tackled though as his positioning was so good

Rarely had to go to ground I feel you mean, Rio made plenty of tackles he just very rarely had to lunge in due to his good positional sense and pace.

He read it better then Vidic who has the highlight reel defensive blocks, tackles clearances, Rio was rarely in a position where he needed to make the last ditch tackle.

He tackled plenty though.

GSPfan

DM_7 wrote: »

Its a thread about Manchester United, not players of other clubs.

Blind is much better than any Liverpool Centre Half. I wouldn't swap him for anyone in their back 4.

See its easy and also on topic.

bangkok

GSPfan wrote: »

Look I understand criticism but using stats and in depth analysis with comparisons and well thought out arguments seems a bit more than just saying "Memphis needs to get the finger out".

Fellaini gets slaughtered by at least one guy in here. Rooney gets slaughtered by a dozen people. Memphis gets slaughtered when he plays. Blind and Smalling take a good battering the second they don't do everything perfectly.

Anyway I don't want to kick off a debate on it but it just seems odd to me that we (no one in particular) can be so harsh about so many players and enjoy watching United at all.

You forgot pogba's first touch last weekend was shocking

dubmick

enjoyed the class of 92 tonight. Lads were not in it as much as last season. Suppose the Nevilles were in Spain. Yet to hear Nicky Butt say one thing in it.

Blatter

Interesting that one of the more reliable journalists around and chief football writer for the Telegraph, Sam Wallace has written that Depay is available for transfer if the money is right -

Memphis Depay is also available, although it would take a big fee for him to move, close to the £26 million it cost United to sign him from PSV Eindhoven. There are no offers for Depay that have tempted United to sell although they would be prepared to do business for the right money.

He also says that Mata will stay although the player recognises that he won't be an automatic first choice. Darmian and Jones also told that they'll be staying.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/08/25/juan-mata-will-stay-at-manchester-united---but-still-wont-get-mu/

DM_7

GSPfan wrote: »

Blind is much better than any Liverpool Centre Half. I wouldn't swap him for anyone in their back 4.

See its easy and also on topic.

United need to reach a higher level than where United were last season.

Why bring Liverpool into it unless they had something United should be aiming for?

Rayne Wooney

Even if we had a major attacking injury crises I wouldn't expect Depay to perform much better when called upon than a player plucked from the under 21s.

You can see why they'd sell him, cant be a good example for the younger players with Depay on 100k a week

Whatsisname

Having trouble moving on players because of their wages seems to be growing problem for us, but why are we offering them so much to join? it's not like many players we buy are moving down a level to play for United?

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

Well relative to Blind, most in the league, probably world are awful then. If you look at Smalling he gave away almost twice as many fouls as Blind and had a much lower amount of tackles won per game in the league going off Squawka. Now I believe Smalling had a very good season last season but Blind was very good too at the very least. Imperious some games.

Fwiw I think he was pretty bad in Europe last season but the whole team were cat for most of that.

Not being as good as one of the best in a certain skill (tackling win % in this case, you are claiming) does not make most of the league awful at that skill.

However, being dead last by a very long way compared to the rest of the league - as Blind was with percentage of aerial duels won - is a strong indication that the player is awful at that particular thing. The vast majority of the league's first choice CB's (except for 3 players; one being Blind and the others being Mbemba and Coloccini) were comfortably above 50% of aerial duels won. Blind was at 38.64% (Mbemba 47.06%, Coloccini 49.23%).

It should also be noted that aerial duels won is a straight forward metric whereas tackles won is not. Tackles are only considered to be won if the ball goes to a teammate straight after. So if a defender tackles a striker about to shoot right in front of goal and the ball is cleared 40 yards up the pitch, but to an opposition player or out of bounds, that would not count as a tackle won, even though it probably was an excellent tackle. Aerial duels won % is just a question of whether the player won a contested header or not.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Sean Walsh once played an entire Munster final for Kerry and was said to have played a blinder despite it later being realised that he had not touched the ball in the entire match. Food for thought.

Also, pun intended.

There's nothing novel about the idea that appreciating a player's quality requires understanding all the subtleties of the role they're playing. The only question is who has the better understanding of the role and player in question.

brinty

So I guess blind was the subject of debate for today.

can I suggest Valencia for tomorrow,good going forward but god help us if he is pinned back, badly positonally, gets caught out of position and not great defending attacks, gets turned inside out by tricky front men...

Now get your facts figures and stats at that one....

Insect Overlord

A safer question!

I want to start putting up a few posters. Already mentioned getting a squad one when the transfer window closes. What else is essential? Cantona? Best/Law/Charlton? Champions League '99?

Pro. F

DM_7 wrote: »

Obviously a Rio Ferdinand would be much better to have as he was excellant all round. Blind still had a good season last time out, some games didn't suit but many others saw him perform to a high standard.

There are many games that, if United get to the level they want to, where a player like Blind will be better than a Vidic (for example). Where United will be managing the game and need a player who reads the game and can step out of defence with the ball. A player better at dealing with a counter attack.

If United dominate midfield, control the game then Blind's attributes can be more effective/useful than Smalling.

If your playing West Ham, like the example provided earlier then you wouldn't want Blind defending set pieces against Andy Carroll. You may rely on another player to mark him or pick another CB.

The idea that a CB must play most games is another thing that could well be changing in football and see more rotation depending on the opponents, needs of a game.

I think it's reasonable to say that Blind might be very good for a team that are going to completely dominate possession, keep the ball up the other end of the pitch and limit the opposition to isolated counter attacks. His lack of pace might be an issue, or maybe he could make up for that with his reading of the game.

But I don't think that United are going to be able to be successful playing that way. I don't think that United have enough possession players and I don't think they'll ever be as fit as the likes of Barca and Chile (because, eh, "sports science" lets call it).

I agree with your idea that maybe Blind could be used in certain games, or maybe at certain times in games, when we know we're going to be pinning the opposition back a lot, and so building from the back and snuffing out counters would be his job.

jayo26

An File wrote: »

A safer question!

I want to start putting up a few posters. Already mentioned getting a squad one when the transfer window closes. What else is essential? Cantona? Best/Law/Charlton? Champions League '99?

You won't go too far wrong with a nice Rachel Riley poster.

jharr100

jayo26 wrote: »

You won't go too far wrong with a nice Rachel Riley poster.

Or Hayley....

Cantona's Collars

An File wrote: »

A safer question!

I want to start putting up a few posters. Already mentioned getting a squad one when the transfer window closes. What else is essential? Cantona? Best/Law/Charlton? Champions League '99?

The_Kew_Tour

An File wrote: »

A safer question!

I want to start putting up a few posters. Already mentioned getting a squad one when the transfer window closes. What else is essential? Cantona? Best/Law/Charlton? Champions League '99?

07/08 team or better the 08/09 as they have nice big trophies with them

Plus if you like Darts Tevez head is good practise.

The only Picture I have on my wall in my parents house is the 93/94 team season photo in black shirts. Up there 22 years now.

adox

Fair play to the lads and lassies for debating the strengths and weaknesses of particular players I say. Certainly makes for interesting reading from my perspective.

I never really understand where posters are coming from when trying to "shut it down". It would be a pretty boring place if this thread consisted solely of "arent we great" "Rachel Riley" "choo choo" comments.

If there was ever a time in the clubs recent history where the team, tactics, players, manager etc needed to be scrutinized, its now after the last 3 years.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Not being as good as one of the best in a certain skill (tackling win % in this case, you are claiming) does not make most of the league awful at that skill.

However, being dead last by a very long way compared to the rest of the league - as Blind was with percentage of aerial duels won - is a strong indication that the player is awful at that particular thing. The vast majority of the league's first choice CB's (except for 3 players; one being Blind and the others being Mbemba and Coloccini) were comfortably above 50% of aerial duels won. Blind was at 38.64% (Mbemba 47.06%, Coloccini 49.23%).

It should also be noted that aerial duels won is a straight forward metric whereas tackles won is not. Tackles are only considered to be won if the ball goes to a teammate straight after. So if a defender tackles a striker about to shoot right in front of goal and the ball is cleared 40 yards up the pitch, but to an opposition player or out of bounds, that would not count as a tackle won, even though it probably was an excellent tackle. Aerial duels won % is just a question of whether the player won a contested header or not.

Is there a numeric/integer recording of how many aerial attempts he made, along with the rest of the CB's in the league?

Other wise percentages being presented like this are pointless.

Watching Blind he is a clearly intelligent player. There is frequent and common situations where he stands off, or lets a striker take the first ball and then he knicks the second one.

I would be surprised if we saw the numerical value of aerial duels attempted, if Blind was anywhere near as high as the rest. And obviously that is going to skew a percentage. I'd imagine Chris Smalling for example, has a very large numerical aerial battles contested.

Blind is small(ish) and doesn't have a great leap, sure, really no debate or issue there. But he makes up for that in various other ways. His reading of the game and interceptions are top notch.

I'd be surprised if his interceptions and clearances don't reflect favourably on him comparative to others, based on his positional play.

But in just general, viewing of our team, I'm not sure why anyone would want rid of Blind. He was a really good partnership with Smalling last season, and already we are seeing a partnership with Bailly. Mourinho has praised Blind publicly a few times now. It might well be transpiring Blind is becoming the linchpin of our defence. And as long as he has some height and pace around him (which he does) I'm not overly concerned with him in our team at all.

Cantona's Collars

I watched Blind up close marking Lukaku,a player that has destroyed us in the past and he marked him out of the game. The one chance Lukaku got was when he moved over to Smallings side and got through. Guess who read the situation and blocked the shot,yes Blind. Watching how he reads the game in real life is an eye opener,he is class at it.The game is more nuanced than how many headers a player wins.
Teams don't really play get it wide,cross it in football anymore so CBs who can read runs and cut off through balls tend to be more important.

Cantona's Collars

Looks like the Fonte deal is a no no.

jayo26

zerks wrote: »

Looks like the Fonte deal is a no no.

Never wanted him anyway

brinty

zerks wrote: »

Looks like the Fonte deal is a no no.

OMG, Zerks gets in with Breaking news, well done sir

Unearthly

New champions league rules where the 4 top leagues, England, Spain, Italy, and Germany guaranteed 4 group stage spots. No more playoffs. From 2018 onwards

Lord TSC

Here's the pots for the Europa League draw today (I am right this time, I think :P). We cannot draw Southampton from Pot 3. Otherwise, one from each pot.

Unearthly

Unearthly wrote: »

New champions league rules where the 4 top leagues, England, Spain, Italy, and Germany guaranteed 4 group stage spots. No more playoffs. From 2018 onwards

Meh very unfair IMO

TheDoctor

God, some of the trips for those pot 4 teams.

Azerbaijan isn't in Europe!!

brinty

Lord TSC wrote:

Here's the pots for the Europa League draw today (I am right this time, I think ). We cannot draw Southampton from Pot 3. Otherwise, one from each pot.

The only thing under in that Charybdis our coefficient is in the crapper
We could do worse than winning this and boasting it ahead of next year

Liam O

Pro. F wrote: »

Not being as good as one of the best in a certain skill (tackling win % in this case, you are claiming) does not make most of the league awful at that skill.

However, being dead last by a very long way compared to the rest of the league - as Blind was with percentage of aerial duels won - is a strong indication that the player is awful at that particular thing. The vast majority of the league's first choice CB's (except for 3 players; one being Blind and the others being Mbemba and Coloccini) were comfortably above 50% of aerial duels won. Blind was at 38.64% (Mbemba 47.06%, Coloccini 49.23%).

It should also be noted that aerial duels won is a straight forward metric whereas tackles won is not. Tackles are only considered to be won if the ball goes to a teammate straight after. So if a defender tackles a striker about to shoot right in front of goal and the ball is cleared 40 yards up the pitch, but to an opposition player or out of bounds, that would not count as a tackle won, even though it probably was an excellent tackle. Aerial duels won % is just a question of whether the player won a contested header or not.

So what if Blind steps back, lets the player try to control it or flick it on and nips in, deals with it and finds a United player? Is that better than a contested header won that could go anywhere?

I picked tackles won as it's the closest thing to aerial duels. It's 2 players going for the same ball. Blind waits for players to make a mistake and show their hand. He's not a proactive defender bar when he has the ball at his feet. Having 2 balls to the wall CBs who get drawn out and go for everything like Smalling and Bailly can be problematic.

The fact that Mbemba and Collocini, one an experienced PL defender and the other an absolute unit are winning less than half of their duels it indicates that there's a problem with these stats. What about when a cross comes in and they are in position to head away and the attacker doesn't bother to jump? Surely that's a plus for them in the air but wouldn't be incorporated in those stats?

jamesbere

TheDoctor wrote: »

God, some of the trips for those pot 4 teams.

Azerbaijan isn't in Europe!!

Neither is England

jayo26

jamesbere wrote: »

Neither is England

dubmick

if we avoid Roma and Celta Vigo we will have a piss easy group. In fairness they are not even that great.

TheDoctor

Our second team should beat all the teams in pots 3/4 without any issue.

paulbok

Unearthly wrote: »

New champions league rules where the 4 top leagues, England, Spain, Italy, and Germany guaranteed 4 group stage spots. No more playoffs. From 2018 onwards

Contract extension for Wenger so.

The_Kew_Tour

Sparta Prague
Rapid wien
Astana

that is my prediction

TheDoctor

Saint-Etienne
Gent
Dundalk


Three nice short trips

Mitch Connor

I'm actually really looking forward to the EL - in the same way I look forward to the League Cup games. I want United to win, and the team we put out to play a proper game (we have all seen teams half ass to a loss) - but I also want fringe/younger players to get priority - Rashford, Fosu-Mensah should be starting all games in those competitions. Tuanzebe some involvement too. Actually don't think there are any other young players remaining at the club that I would be calling for to get game time. Callum Gribbon would be next up, but I think this season it too early for that. I would say he will push up to the U23 team this year. Ro'shaun Williams another that gets mentions around the club as far as I know.

EL and League Cup also liely to provide a chance for the players that haven't made the side in the first few games to rotate in and have a chance. Rashford, Memphis, Schneidlerlin, Herrera, Jones, Smalling - maybe Darmian - must all be gagging for the extra games to come in. They need to remain in the competitions as long as possible for game time.