Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Lukekul

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

As a captain and forward he's delivered either a goal or assist in every league game this season (the only player in the squad to do so) which has helped us to 3 wins and joint top of the table. He also created the goal that won us the FA cup back in May out of nothing. He was the only player busting his boll*cks to get back and clear a ball off the line in the cup semi final against Everton. He got a goal and 2 assists in the last league game against Bournemouth last season to keep our slim chances of top 4 alive. So in actual fact, in United's recent competitive games he's been delivering QUITE CLOSE to what he should be, and arguably more than any other United player.

Edit: He also assisted Mata's winner against Norwich the week before the Bournemouth game to keep the pressure on City. Name for me one United player that has played a bigger role in United's recent competitive wins.

eh?

TheDoc

Nalz wrote: »

Hear hear. I thought Rooney did very well vs Hull, not by his standards though. Every day a 7 or 7.5/10 performance. I've seen people call him class because of various things he did well like his work rate, doing the simple things etc etc. It's not enough and hasn't been for a while.

Like sorry but I'm judging him on the standards he was has set himself at points, and what media and pundits would have you believe(not that I really ever have).

I'm judging him by the standards of his £300k+ a week contract making him one of the top five paid players in the world (before this transfer window).

I'll be judging him now on the basis of what the club and Mourinho have set out as their stall. Time to become a real European superpower, time to become a monster club, not just talking about it, actually doing it. Do what Ferguson failed to do, and make our club up there with Bayern, Real and Barcalona.

And I totally accept Rooney has contributed with goals and assists thus far. But my concern is relating to the general attacking quartet in the team. It's early days so there will be time to tinker and tweak. But already Rooney's general play seems to be carrying over from last year, and I don't believe his return thus far should overshadow his general performances.

If he continues with his assists and goals, then yeah, I'll need to relook at my stance and viewpoint. If we get to Christmas and he is still in the team, just shy of double figures for goals and assists, maybe thats what I need to accept from Rooney.

Or maybe the pressure is finally telling on him. Maybe he finally knows his arse is on the line. And maybe his game is about to peak. He has been better game on game thus far, but still frustrating. And if that continues brilliant.

deaddonkey15

Lukekul wrote: »

eh?

My mistake, got mixed up. The Mata equaliser.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't care about either of those points. All I care about is how United can play their best in order to win things.

Neither do I directly, but we should care. They greatly influence a large majority of fan thinking, impression and opinion. I know we like to think we are individual thinkers and arn't led by the herders, but we are in the minority.

Shouldn't be forgotten that he is the #1 culprit for most of the leaks to belittle van Gaal during his reign. Rooney is extremely cosey with plenty of the press pack, and he and his agent look after number 1, him.

It will become a very big deal and potentially divisive and disruptive should he need to be dropped.

Himself and Ibra have been our two best attacking players so far. It is ridiculous to be talking of dropping Rooney when he's just had such a good game. Drop Martial and/or Mata, by all means.

If Rooney's form from last season, the Euros and portions of his current play continue, it will not be justified keeping him in this new look United team.

If he continues this little blurt of form with goals and assists I'll probably retake my stance. But we all know Rooney fires in patches, maybe hes just getting it in early this year.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Neither do I directly, but we should care. They greatly influence a large majority of fan thinking, impression and opinion. I know we like to think we are individual thinkers and arn't led by the herders, but we are in the minority.

I don't care what the majority of fans think either. By far the most important thing is picking the best players and tactics so that we can win things. Your logic for dropping Rooney because the press say he is better than he is and that might lead fans astray in their assessment is utterly ridiculous.

And you clearly do care what the press think. You talk about about what the press think and say that it is important all the time.

TheDoc wrote: »

Shouldn't be forgotten that he is the #1 culprit for most of the leaks to belittle van Gaal during his reign. Rooney is extremely cosey with plenty of the press pack, and he and his agent look after number 1, him.

It will become a very big deal and potentially divisive and disruptive should he need to be dropped.

He was dropped by LVG about half way through last season and there were no problems. If his leaking to the press is a concern then he shouldn't be at the club. Picking him or dropping him won't fix that, so it is irrelevant to the conversation of whether he or Mkhitaryan should start at #10.

TheDoc wrote: »

If Rooney's form from last season, the Euros and portions of his current play continue, it will not be justified keeping him in this new look United team.

If he continues this little blurt of form with goals and assists I'll probably retake my stance. But we all know Rooney fires in patches, maybe hes just getting it in early this year.

Rooney was quite good for the majority of the Euros, until he completely gassed after the first half against Iceland. He also finished last season well and has started this season well. If Rooney plays like he did under LVG then he will need to be dropped, but that is true for the majority of players at the club.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Like sorry but I'm judging him on the standards he was has set himself at points, and what media and pundits would have you believe(not that I really ever have).

I'm judging him by the standards of his £300k+ a week contract making him one of the top five paid players in the world (before this transfer window).

I'll be judging him now on the basis of what the club and Mourinho have set out as their stall. Time to become a real European superpower, time to become a monster club, not just talking about it, actually doing it. Do what Ferguson failed to do, and make our club up there with Bayern, Real and Barcalona.

And I totally accept Rooney has contributed with goals and assists thus far. But my concern is relating to the general attacking quartet in the team. It's early days so there will be time to tinker and tweak. But already Rooney's general play seems to be carrying over from last year, and I don't believe his return thus far should overshadow his general performances.

If he continues with his assists and goals, then yeah, I'll need to relook at my stance and viewpoint. If we get to Christmas and he is still in the team, just shy of double figures for goals and assists, maybe thats what I need to accept from Rooney.

Or maybe the pressure is finally telling on him. Maybe he finally knows his arse is on the line. And maybe his game is about to peak. He has been better game on game thus far, but still frustrating. And if that continues brilliant.

Presumebly you will be applying this logic to your thinking on Ibra as well. I look forward to you talking about him being dropped in the near future.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't care what the majority of fans think either. By far the most important thing is picking the best players and tactics so that we can win things. Your logic for dropping Rooney because the press say he is better than he is and that might lead fans astray in their assessment is utterly ridiculous.

That is not my logic for dropping him. Read my posts properly instead of looking for a quick win.

I'm outlining it as a potential pitfall if it is allowed manifest.

My logic for Rooney to be dropped is his horrendous form. But I'm not calling for him to be dropped now. I've happily tempered my view with his game on game improvement. What I havn't changed is my expectation he is going to be a liability in this season and NEED to be dropped. I don't believe he will recpature any form befitting one of the highest paid players in the world, or part of an attack for a club reshaping for success.

And you clearly do care what the press think. You talk about about what the press think and say that it is important all the time.

I keep informed of what they are saying and writting. I enjoy some podcasts which are journalist centric, and I enjoy various pre-match and post-match analysis. I happily form my own opinions, but I'm acutely aware that large parts of our fanbase are influenced by these outlets. Especially large parts of our home crowd believe it or not. And considering that is what is deemed as the "speaking for all" metric, I think it's important to see what is influencing our stands to take the opinions they have.

He was dropped by LVG about half way through last season and there were no problems. If his leaking to the press is a concern then he shouldn't be at the club. Picking him or dropping him won't fix that, so it is irrelevant to the conversation of whether he or Mkhitaryan should start at #10.

Probably a different conversation. But he is the #1 suspect for all the leaks, not Giggs like was thought at the time. And if I'm not mistaken around that time he got some flak and dropped, some **** started appearing in some of the papers.

I think where it becomes relevant is if (and I should say it's if, I just very much see a point where Rooneys form is proper dirt and needs to be dropped) there are calls for him to be dropped, or Mourinho does drop him, Rooney can become a problem person in the dressing room.

Rooney was quite good for the majority of the Euros, until he completely gassed after the first half against Iceland. He also finished last season well and has started this season well. If Rooney plays like he did under LVG then he will need to be dropped, but that is true for the majority of players at the club.

I guess that is just a flat difference of opinion. Maybe I should be adapting my expectations of Rooney, but in the majority I find him extremely underwhelming, frustrating, hindering and someone who is very much working of pure reputation at this stage.

If he continues his assists and goals throughout the campaign then all well and good, but I'm highly doubtful it will actually happen.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Presumebly you will be applying this logic to your thinking on Ibra as well. I look forward to you talking about him being dropped in the near future.

I'll happily judge all our squad on that basis. That is the message the club are clearly sending out, so I'm happy to hold them on it. This isn't a year of transition or adaption, this isn't a club looking to build on youth or supplement our squad with academy graduates.

This is the quint essential Jose Mourinho template and model, and as such I've happily adjusted my expectations and thinking to critique and judge the club and its players to that standard.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

Presumebly you will be applying this logic to your thinking on Ibra as well. I look forward to you talking about him being dropped in the near future.

It's weird, but I almost expected less from Ibra so far. I had a feeling that he'd do combined 15 goals and assists for the season at best, but more likely he'd struggle with the pace a bit given his age and be used sparingly by Mourinho at the right times. He has pleasantly surprised me so far.

deaddonkey15

TheDoc wrote: »

Probably a different conversation. But he is the #1 suspect for all the leaks, not Giggs like was thought at the time. And if I'm not mistaken around that time he got some flak and dropped, some **** started appearing in some of the papers.

Any evidence of this?

secman

Has Aguero been charged by F. A. Yet ?

TheDoc

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's weird, but I almost expected less from Ibra so far. I had a feeling that he'd do combined 15 goals and assists for the season at best, but more likely he'd struggle with the pace a bit given his age and be used sparingly by Mourinho at the right times. He has pleasantly surprised me so far.

This isn't aimed at you personally, but kinda filters into my points above about whilst I don't care about media opinions directly, I care indirectly how it influences.

So while I'm not, and want to be clear, not insinuating you had that worry from being directly influenced by the "media" I don't think it's surprising that it was the main talking point throughout the summer relating to him.

Papers, podcasts, TV, this forum, other forums. How is Ibrahimovic going to handle the premier league at his age, with no pace.

And yet when you watch him play last season in particular, never mind the last few years, you see a player who is powerful in the air, predatory like in the box, ultimate ball control and very much influences play around him. The perfect spearhead for a 4-2-3-1. And rarely to never relying on, or even having, pace.

Again not indicating the OP here as being influenced by the media, but I know people and friends who really are. They will recycle anything they read at the back of a paper. And the above was definitely one of those kinda of things I kept hearing about Zlatan.

And I guess it explains whilst I don't care persay about the media in terms of forming my own opinion, I've always been fascinated how it shapes the general football opinion in terraces and forums etc. etc.

RasTa

Am I the only person who think Aguero missed with the elbow?

https://twitter.com/FutballVines/status/769938915134496768

TheDoc

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Any evidence of this?

Of course not, that's why I said suspect. He has been named in numerous pieces and blogs are the prime suspect, and there has been some little hints on the likes of Sunday Supplement by Steve Bates (close to Rooney camp) and also on Football Weekly. Andy Mitten also dropped a hint on an OffTheBall piece that he had a strong suspicion about the player who did it.

There is just as a compelling case for it being Giggs also.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. I personally don't like it though, and never have. And in my own personal opinion I've always had a sneaky feeling it was him, and do believe it was.

But no, I cannot provide you evidence.

jaykay74

RasTa wrote: »

Am I the only person who think Aguero missed with the elbow?

If he missed why did Reid then go off almost directly? I think from reading he was hit in the adams apple and had problems talking/breathing. The intent is clear obviously so don't think a citing requires a solid physical obvious connection from the elbow but then again its the FA, who knows!

deaddonkey15

TheDoc wrote: »

Of course not, that's why I said suspect. He has been named in numerous pieces and blogs are the prime suspect, and there has been some little hints on the likes of Sunday Supplement by Steve Bates (close to Rooney camp) and also on Football Weekly. Andy Mitten also dropped a hint on an OffTheBall piece that he had a strong suspicion about the player who did it.

There is just as a compelling case for it being Giggs also.

In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter. I personally don't like it though, and never have. And in my own personal opinion I've always had a sneaky feeling it was him, and do believe it was.

But no, I cannot provide you evidence.

So just rumours and hearsay then. Brilliant.

Flint Fredstone

RasTa wrote: »

Am I the only person who think Aguero missed with the elbow?

https://twitter.com/FutballVines/status/769938915134496768

Missed with the elbow but caught him in the throat with his fist. He clearly intended to elbow him in the face though.

GSPfan

I'd rather Rooney was on the bench to be honest but I agree with Pro F and deaddonkey in their defense of the criticism of Rooney. The criticism at the moment is unfair and I think thats all they are trying to defend. It won't be long before Rooney stops scoring and assisting and that may trigger fair criticism and a stint on the bench but until then I can't see why he'd be taken out of the team.

To be honest Id rather see Martial taken out of the team for Rashford and maybe Mkhitaryan for Mata. Martial has been bad so far. Mata just doesn't work on the right side for me. Comes inside way too much.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

That is not my logic for dropping him. Read my posts properly instead of looking for a quick win.

I'm outlining it as a potential pitfall if it is allowed manifest.

I read and responded to all the points you raised. This particular criticism of Rooney is a ridiculous one. It's not even a criticism of him. If it's not relevant to the conversation of whether he should start or not, then why are you bringing it up?

TheDoc wrote: »

I keep informed of what they are saying and writting. I enjoy some podcasts which are journalist centric, and I enjoy various pre-match and post-match analysis. I happily form my own opinions, but I'm acutely aware that large parts of our fanbase are influenced by these outlets. Especially large parts of our home crowd believe it or not. And considering that is what is deemed as the "speaking for all" metric, I think it's important to see what is influencing our stands to take the opinions they have.

If you like to investigate how popular opinion is influenced by the press then good for you, but it is irrelevant to a discussion on which players are, or aren't, playing well and who should be starting.

TheDoc wrote: »

Probably a different conversation. But he is the #1 suspect for all the leaks, not Giggs like was thought at the time. And if I'm not mistaken around that time he got some flak and dropped, some **** started appearing in some of the papers.

I think where it becomes relevant is if (and I should say it's if, I just very much see a point where Rooneys form is proper dirt and needs to be dropped) there are calls for him to be dropped, or Mourinho does drop him, Rooney can become a problem person in the dressing room.

Exactly, again it is not relevant to this conversation. If at some point Jose drops Rooney and then he causes problems in the press then it will be something worth discussing.

TheDoc wrote: »

My logic for Rooney to be dropped is his horrendous form. But I'm not calling for him to be dropped now. I've happily tempered my view with his game on game improvement. What I havn't changed is my expectation he is going to be a liability in this season and NEED to be dropped. I don't believe he will recpature any form befitting one of the highest paid players in the world, or part of an attack for a club reshaping for success.
...
I guess that is just a flat difference of opinion. Maybe I should be adapting my expectations of Rooney, but in the majority I find him extremely underwhelming, frustrating, hindering and someone who is very much working of pure reputation at this stage.

If he continues his assists and goals throughout the campaign then all well and good, but I'm highly doubtful it will actually happen.

Rooney's horrendous form came under LVG who did a hurrendously bad job and when the whole team's form was hurrendous. You don't think Rooney has been playing well, and it's only his goals and assists that have been good, you are wrong. And if his non-penalty goals+assist rate eases off (it will) then that won't necessarily mean he is playing poorly either.

deaddonkey15

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

So just rumours and hearsay then. Brilliant.

You might want to have a read of thread title again. Mr hyperbole

dr.kenneth noisewater

New coach signed from Spurs
http://www.espnfc.com/tottenham-hotspur/story/2939822/tottenham-u18-boss-kieran-mckenna-joins-man-united-sources

TheDoc

GSPfan wrote: »

I'd rather Rooney was on the bench to be honest but I agree with Pro F and deaddonkey in their defense of the criticism of Rooney. The criticism at the moment is unfair and I think thats all they are trying to defend. It won't be long before Rooney stops scoring and assisting and that may trigger fair criticism and a stint on the bench but until then I can't see why he'd be taken out of the team.

To be honest Id rather see Martial taken out of the team for Rashford and maybe Mkhitaryan for Mata. Martial has been bad so far. Mata just doesn't work on the right side for me. Comes inside way too much.

Martial is definitly looking the first casualty for dropping out. Has had a poor start with very little impact .

I think Mata is next. Not through him being poor , but Myhki looking so good.

With the options now players really arnt going to get away with 2+ sub standard performancs

Cantona's Collars

Deleted User wrote: »

You might want to have a read of thread title again. Mr hyperbole

Not the first time those stories appeared about Rooney and his agent.

zerks

zerks wrote: »

Not the first time those stories appeared about Rooney and his agent.

A long list of **** he has done at the club..

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

I'll happily judge all our squad on that basis. That is the message the club are clearly sending out, so I'm happy to hold them on it. This isn't a year of transition or adaption, this isn't a club looking to build on youth or supplement our squad with academy graduates.

This is the quint essential Jose Mourinho template and model, and as such I've happily adjusted my expectations and thinking to critique and judge the club and its players to that standard.

By this logic if we had brought in Ozil, Griezman, Mahrez, Vardy or Kane, paid them top dollar and they went on to reproduce similar seasons to last (in terms of non penalty goals+assists), then that wouldn't be good enough. Because that is not up to what the very best players (Suarez, Neymar, Messi and Bale) produce and that is how they are being paid and what the club is, or should be, aiming to achieve.

Thankfully, this is not how the club or Mourinho are likely to be thinking (it is clearly not the quintessential Jose model) and you have probably just built up unrealistic expectations on the back of a few press announcements or something.

Maximus Alexander

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's weird, but I almost expected less from Ibra so far. I had a feeling that he'd do combined 15 goals and assists for the season at best, but more likely he'd struggle with the pace a bit given his age and be used sparingly by Mourinho at the right times. He has pleasantly surprised me so far.

I thought he'd do even less. I believe I said 7 or 8 PL goals. Proving me wrong so far; long may it continue.

Adamocovic

zerks wrote: »

Not the first time those stories appeared about Rooney and his agent.

I don't want to get into a Rooney debate but this here is something I've touched on before.

I think those stories actually affect how some fans judge Rooney on the pitch. If something off field has soured an opinion of someone then it is hard to judge them fairly and unbiased on the pitch.

It's not just for Rooney, it's the same for a lot of players. If something is heard or happens that makes you not like a player you can at times harshly judge them, I've done it myself for other players and know people who do it for players of different clubs.

*runs back into hiding*

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

It's weird, but I almost expected less from Ibra so far. I had a feeling that he'd do combined 15 goals and assists for the season at best, but more likely he'd struggle with the pace a bit given his age and be used sparingly by Mourinho at the right times. He has pleasantly surprised me so far.

I would say that he is struggling with the pace, his movement off the ball is poor and he lacks pace, so the rest of the team has to be adjusted for that. But that is okay because it can be worked around and his strength, creativity and goal threat can make up for it.

I have no idea how many goals he'll get. He is a walking (literally sometimes) anomaly of a player.

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

No, Zerks was criticising Rooney for his passing after the Bournmouth game.



I agree we need more dribblers (and pace) in the team. I just disagree with the idea that that has to be at #10, rather than on the wing or at CF. Like based on the performances so far this season, Rooney's place should be no more under threat from Mkhitaryan than Ibra's should be from Rashford.

I think you're missing the majority of posters points. It doesn't have to be the 10 that draws out players and dribbles past them...BUT.....if you have a player on the bench that can do that and is "IMO" as strong as Rooney in every other element surely utilising that player gives you an edge.

I also disagree of your assessment that Rooney is a greater threat inside the box. Last season Micky scored 11 goals and assisted 16 times compared to Rooneys 8 goals and 6 assists.

KombuchaMshroom

Pro. F wrote: »

I would say that he is struggling with the pace, his movement off the ball is poor and he lacks pace, so the rest of the team has to be adjusted for that. But that is okay because it can be worked around and his strength, creativity and goal threat can make up for it.

I have no idea how many goals he'll get. He is a walking (literally sometimes) anomaly of a player.

Come off it!!

He's lasted the full 90 in every game so far, scored the late winner against Leicester, skint the full back in the last few minutes against bournemouth and tried to look for Rooney when he should have shot, and was still looking dangerous right to the end when we were chasing the game on Saturday, not really signs of someone struggling with the pace. Adapting to it a small bit maybe, he said himself it was tougher than he had realised it would be, but struggling is not a word you use to describe his start.

As for his movement off the ball being poor, he wouldn't be getting on the end of so many crosses or linking up the play as well as he is if this was the case (the pass to Mata at the weekend where Mata just strayed offside.. my god :eek:).

Not getting involved in this tiresome Rooney debate, but you don't need to drag one player down to try and raise another up, because that's clearly all you are doing with that comment.

Vertigo100

I love the smell of condescension in the morning.

Adamocovic

RasTa wrote: »

Am I the only person who think Aguero missed with the elbow?

He didn't connect cleanly with the actual elbow, but he had clenched his fist and swung the elbow back with frustration and it looked like his arm caught Reid in the throat more so.

The fact that he even threw the elbow out like that is going to get people calling for action. It really depends what is in the referees report.

If he gets a 3 match ban he can only blame himself.

DM_7

Kirby wrote: »

There are plenty of 10's who are that type of player though...and who can take the ball and drive at the opposition to create openings. Mhikitaryan is one such player. Thats the point being made. There are alternatives to Rooney in that position that can do what he does....and also more.

Can you name some? I stuggle to think of many that could slot in and perform the role Jose has asked.

Can't include wide players who move inside. Mkhitaryan is a wide players who moves inside.

When thinking of alternatives its important to consider if the player would fit the role Jose wants or not (getting past Ibra, moving the ball to wide positions and getting in the box, defending from the front etc).

The Rooney debate has raged on and but the actual role Jose has him playing is forgotten at times. I laughed a lot when Carragher suggested Rooney just played the way he wanted and it had nothing to do with Jose.

Cookiemunster

secman wrote: »

Has Aguero been charged by F. A. Yet ?

It's a bank holiday in the UK. Don't expect to hear anything until tomorrow.

Pro. F

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

I think you're missing the majority of posters points. It doesn't have to be the 10 that draws out players and dribbles past them...BUT.....if you have a player on the bench that can do that and is "IMO" as strong as Rooney in every other element surely utilising that player gives you an edge.

I did address that point directly a few times. As I said, I don't agree that Mkhitaryan is as strong as Rooney at every other element like is being said. Imo Rooney brings some important qualities that Miki doesn't, especially when will need to compliment Ibra's play.

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

I also disagree of your assessment that Rooney is a greater threat inside the box. Last season Micky scored 11 goals and assisted 16 times compared to Rooneys 8 goals and 6 assists.

The Bundisliga is much easier to score in and Miki was playing in a well functioning team, unlike what Rooney was playing in. Mkhitaryan is quality, but in terms of off the ball movement to get on the end of chances in the box I'd have Rooney ahead of him. Rooney makes clever CF type movements without thinking, Mkhitaryan hasn't yet played like that.

deaddonkey15

Why is everyone so keen to see Rooney dropped in favour of Mkhitaryan? Surely the obvious change would be to drop Mata who offers little and is not a right winger, and instead play Mkhitaryan who actually is a right winger?

Cantona's Collars

Draxler is off to PSG.One to scratch off the list of dream team players we want.Anyhow,The Star is bigging up their claim of United going all out for Bale next Summer.

Stuart Mathieson is saying Jose wants to keep Rojo,odd one that considering virtually every fan wants him out.

Billy86

Are we still on the 'talk down other players to make Rooney look better' schtick? There's what, three days left in the window? Can't that bullsh*t distract us from this bullsh*t, even if only for a while? We've got 9 whole "glorious" months of time to talk about if Rooney is better than Messi or worse than Bendtner.

RobertKK

Mino Raiola said Pogba was very disappointed when France lost the final and that it was this and not Real Madrid who did want him that delayed his signing.
That he needed time out after the final to get over his disappointment at the Euros.
He also said Unuted are a much stronger team with Pogba, while Real Madrid are not.
Raiola says he did not speak to him about his future during the Euros and it was only when he met Pogba in Miami that things got moving as Pogba told him what he wanted, that Manchester is his home.

It is just great that he is back and we all look forward to games, it was like a chore under Van Gaal, you watched because you were a fan of the team, but honestly, a lot of the time it would make one sleepy watching United the last year in particular.
I do think Di Maria brought excitement, before that burglary happened.
United feels like United again, the excitement is back, the expectation of good football is back and real excitement about a lot of the players is back.
It will be make the dark days of the coming winter brighter.
The last time I felt this excited about United, we had Ronaldo in our team. We have special players again in our team, and we will win the CL in the next few years again.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

By this logic if we had brought in Ozil, Griezman, Mahrez, Vardy or Kane, paid them top dollar and they went on to reproduce similar seasons to last (in terms of non penalty goals+assists), then that wouldn't be good enough. Because that is not up to what the very best players (Suarez, Neymar, Messi and Bale) produce and that is how they are being paid and what the club is, or should be, aiming to achieve.

Are you mental? Of course that would be good enough.

Everyone of those players had stand out, outstanding returns for their clubs.

If Ibrahimovic replicates his last season, brilliant, good enough.
If Pogba replicates his last season, brilliant, good enough.
If Mhkyi replicates his last season, brilliant, good enough.
If Rooney replicates his last season, poor, not good enough.

Of those three new signings, have been brought in, justifiably been rewarded, on the back of last seasons performances, and our expectations should be the same or better, apart from mitigating circumstances.

Thankfully, this is not how the club or Mourinho are likely to be thinking (it is clearly not the quintessential Jose model) and you have probably just built up unrealistic expectations on the back of a few press announcements or something.

It really is the Jose model. He doesn't build teams for the longterm, he doesn't integrate youth, he doesn't throw a net over an entire club. He buys quality, builds a strong first team squad, and is competitive. In most cases, the rule rather then exception, he picks a title up in his first two seasons.

So I've not picked up any unrealistic expectations. The club has been extremely clear in where we are going. And I said this before his appointment, early on we will know what type of directive Mourinho has been given. And it's abundantly clear, that directive is to bring back the glory, ASAP.

Sorry have you expectations different to mine, from reading between the lines or something? It really isn't for misinterpretation imo.

TheDoc

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

So just rumours and hearsay then. Brilliant.

Yeah, just that. But wouldn't be the first time something like that transpires to be true.

I think it's relevant in the wider context of this debate, in my opinion, as his powers continue to wane, he may becoming more toxic in that regard defending his keep.

There has been an inability from Moyes, Van Gaal and Hodgson to drop Rooney when required,and I believe that is fully due to media and fan pressure.

While clearly not a direct piece of the debate considering it's mostly based on speculation (but thats not to say you can't have pretty accurate speculation) I feel it is something worth mentioning in the wider context.

If the indication is when he's not happy he is disruptive and in some cases actively dividing dressing rooms, that will obviously be a talking point in any debate about his place in the team.

Pro. F

KombuchaMshroom wrote: »

Come off it!!

He's lasted the full 90 in every game so far, scored the late winner against Leicester, skint the full back in the last few minutes against bournemouth and tried to look for Rooney when he should have shot, and was still looking dangerous right to the end when we were chasing the game on Saturday, not really signs of someone struggling with the pace. Adapting to it a small bit maybe, he said himself it was tougher than he had realised it would be, but struggling is not a word you use to describe his start.

As for his movement off the ball being poor, he wouldn't be getting on the end of so many crosses or linking up the play as well as he is if this was the case (the pass to Mata at the weekend where Mata just strayed offside.. my god :eek:).

Not getting involved in this tiresome Rooney debate, but you don't need to drag one player down to try and raise another up, because that's clearly all you are doing with that comment.

It's not so hard to last the full 90 when he runs so relatively little.

The fullback he skinned had lunged in with a desperate tackle when the pair of them were in acres of space, Ibra skipped over it and ran on. That was very good, but did not require any impressive pace.

I did not use "struggling" to describe his start in the league. I used it describe his pace. Most players, even the best, have something they're weak at. Pace and movement are Ibra's. This shouldn't be controversial.

Ibra isn't getting on the end of that many crosses, nor is he creating very many chances or completing many passes. Not that these are problems, that's (quantity) not what he's there for. But if you are going to hold them up as evidence for him having good off the ball movement, then they don't work.

TheDoc

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Why is everyone so keen to see Rooney dropped in favour of Mkhitaryan? Surely the obvious change would be to drop Mata who offers little and is not a right winger, and instead play Mkhitaryan who actually is a right winger?

I think there is possibly some lost in translation. I know with me anyway, I'm not calling for him to be immediately dropped. I just felt start of season he is going to be a selection problem, and his general play thus far makes me believe that will still be the case.

Looking towards the derby, I'd pick him if I was manager. Martial is surely making way for Rashford, and Mkhitaryan will likely come in for Mata.

I'm sure the general point is, that Rooney needs to really kick into life, or with the options we have, could well find himself dropped.

And where maybe people like me come into it, is the fear there will be a big coffufle when the time comes for him to be dropped. Too many managers apart from Fergie have bottled that call.

And in the wider context of the thread, I don't think it's unreasonable to see this coming up so often. He has been a brilliant player for the club over a long period, is a controversial figure among fans, and is clearly on the downward spiral. Any talisman for a club nearing the end, becomes a debatable and divisive figure.

The LFC thread probably had it with Gerard, the CFC thread is likely having it with Terry and Lampard before, and the City thread is probably having it about Toure and Hart.

Korat

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

New coach signed from Spurs

Never heard of him before but it's always good to get another Irishman at the club.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/academy-hotseat-kieran-mckenna-190903/

He likes Roy Keane anyway, might be a Utd fan.

deaddonkey15

TheDoc wrote: »

I think there is possibly some lost in translation. I know with me anyway, I'm not calling for him to be immediately dropped. I just felt start of season he is going to be a selection problem, and his general play thus far makes me believe that will still be the case.

Looking towards the derby, I'd pick him if I was manager. Martial is surely making way for Rashford, and Mkhitaryan will likely come in for Mata.

I'm sure the general point is, that Rooney needs to really kick into life, or with the options we have, could well find himself dropped.

And where maybe people like me come into it, is the fear there will be a big coffufle when the time comes for him to be dropped. Too many managers apart from Fergie have bottled that call.

And in the wider context of the thread, I don't think it's unreasonable to see this coming up so often. He has been a brilliant player for the club over a long period, is a controversial figure among fans, and is clearly on the downward spiral. Any talisman for a club nearing the end, becomes a debatable and divisive figure.

The LFC thread probably had it with Gerard, the CFC thread is likely having it with Terry and Lampard before, and the City thread is probably having it about Toure and Hart.

Good post, and good points. There's no doubt he's declining, and that he doesn't have the ability of the likes of de Bruyne or Ozil. However so far this season, and for the back end of last season he's contributing goals that are winning United matches.That's what it's all about at the end of the day. Whilst this continues to happen I reckon it's logical to keep him in the team. Some people here think I'm delusional for having that opinion but I reckon it's reasonable enough. Other's have called for him to be dropped as we have "better options" on the bench, but again, I think most would agree there are at least 2 other players in the starting XI that should be dropped before him based on current form.

TheDoc

And separately where Rooney specifically interests me, is that I had my opinion changed of him and his play ahead of last season, from this exact thread. As I've held the opinion he should have gone when Fergie left (SAF was doing Moyes and the club a favour both were too stupid to cop) it's easy for me to slide back into that "Rooney crap" camp.

Plus the fact I'm not hot on him as a character, which as mentioned before can cause bias, consciously or not.

But I havn't been adverse to having my opinions changed, or conceeding ground before with players or managers or tactics etc. So I don't think it's exactly a bad thing to be discussed.


Plus it's not like we are running out of space on the internet, so what is stuff keeps cropping up in circles

Polo_Mint

This thread has gone too Analytical for me

Im like..........

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Are you mental? Of course that would be good enough.

Everyone of those players had stand out, outstanding returns for their clubs.

If Ibrahimovic replicates his last season, brilliant, good enough.
If Pogba replicates his last season, brilliant, good enough.
If Mhkyi replicates his last season, brilliant, good enough.
If Rooney replicates his last season, poor, not good enough.

Of those three new signings, have been brought in, justifiably been rewarded, on the back of last seasons performances, and our expectations should be the same or better, apart from mitigating circumstances.

Calm down. None of those are the players I mentioned. I specifically referred to Ozil, Vardy, Griezman, Kane and Mahrez. If they were brought in, paid top dollar and reproduced their previous seasons' returns (in assists and non-penalty goals), by the logic you are using to justify Rooney potentially being dropped, that would not be good enough because they wouldn't be getting returns like the top paid players in the world "should" (according to you) be getting - like Ronaldo, Bale, Suarez, Neymar and Messi.

Remember, you have been saying that Rooney is justifying his wages so long as he keeps up his current goals and assists. That current rate is well above what Vardy, Mahrez, Ozil, Kane and Griezman got last year. It is a ridiculous rate to demand of any player.

TheDoc wrote: »

It really is the Jose model. He doesn't build teams for the longterm, he doesn't integrate youth, he doesn't throw a net over an entire club. He buys quality, builds a strong first team squad, and is competitive. In most cases, the rule rather then exception, he picks a title up in his first two seasons.

So I've not picked up any unrealistic expectations. The club has been extremely clear in where we are going. And I said this before his appointment, early on we will know what type of directive Mourinho has been given. And it's abundantly clear, that directive is to bring back the glory, ASAP.

Sorry have you expectations different to mine, from reading between the lines or something? It really isn't for misinterpretation imo.

The unrealistic expectations you have is that our big money players should all be getting goal and assist returns like the best players in the world, simply because we are paying big wages. That is not how Jose has built his success. He has always built realistic teams, with a balance between goals and other qualities in the attacking players.

TheDoc

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Good post, and good points. There's no doubt he's declining, and that he doesn't have the ability of the likes of de Bruyne or Ozil. However so far this season, and for the back end of last season he's contributing goals that are winning United matches.That's what it's all about at the end of the day. Whilst this continues to happen I reckon it's logical to keep him in the team. Some people here think I'm delusional for having that opinion but I reckon it's reasonable enough. Other's have called for him to be dropped as we have "better options" on the bench, but again, I think most would agree there are at least 2 other players in the starting XI that should be dropped before him based on current form.

Yeah, I think everyone can concede that calling for Rooney to be dropped now, might be a bit hasty. It's early days, and he has contributed to the "money stats" (goals + assists)

The options for #10, while there is definitly plenty of people that can do it, I'd say the only REAL competition there for Rooney is Mata.

However, as the season progress' who knows what we might see. Should Martial recapture form, and say even Memphis, with Rashford continuing his influence, it wouldn't be inconceivable to see Zlatan slide into #10, with Martial or Rashford playing up front.

Mourinho mentioned this after the Hull game when most of the early questioning was about Rashford. He said that when in games of high possession and dominance, a really viable option is Zlatan at 10 with Rashford playing ahead.

Again probably the Rooney bias, but while he didn't mention Rooney in the segment once and therefore extreme to actually take any meaning, I thought it was noticeable that he DIDN'T mention Rooney. Granted that's probably extreme and reading between lines that arn't anything at all.

Cantona's Collars

Ravel Morrison's time in Italy is up and he is looking for a club in England.A waste of serious talent.Fergie had him tipped for the absolute top if he only had his head screwed on,alas the passing of time hasn't seen that happen.