Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Flint Fredstone

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Both in the one game, 2nd "assist" was hardly intentional and the first was a simple pass to Ibrahimovich. Offered nothing against Hull and missed a very good chance against Southampton, set up by Rooney of all people. Rooney has contributed in every game so far.

Yep. Just showing how stats can be misleading.

bangkok

M!Ck^ wrote: »

The more competitive the youth setup is the more likely that someone like Rashford makes the step up to the next level
So no I don't agree that stripping back the youth team further has any positive effect or will increase the likely-hood of blooding younger talent into the senior setup

Class players will thrive in any team and will make their way to the very top no matter how bad a youth setup is or how poor of a team they are in. It's actually probably easier to find better players in poor teams as that's where a players character and temperament really come to the fore

Jayop

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Martial. 3 games, 2 assists but he's clearly been sh*te.

Gimme a break.

Martial's "assists" were a shot he made a balls of shot and a 5 yard pass to Zlatan on the half way line.

That the latter was even considered an assist is a joke. If the keeper rolls the ball to a player on the edge of his own box, that player then proceeds to take the ball around everyone the length of the pitch and score, the keeper gets the assist? Nonsense.

in the league Rooney has scored one and had two actual proper assists. Not an assist where he made a balls of something and it fell to someone to score.


Anyway, everyone agree's Martial has been poor, however he's not getting slaughtered after every game.

Flint Fredstone

Jayop wrote: »

Gimme a break.

Martial's "assists" were a shot he made a balls of shot and a 5 yard pass to Zlatan on the half way line.

That the latter was even considered an assist is a joke. If the keeper rolls the ball to a player on the edge of his own box, that player then proceeds to take the ball around everyone the length of the pitch and score, the keeper gets the assist? Nonsense.

in the league Rooney has scored one and had two actual proper assists. Not an assist where he made a balls of something and it fell to someone to score.


Anyway, everyone agree's Martial has been poor, however he's not getting slaughtered after every game.

Yeah, read my follow up post.

Trigger

Think I put up an interview with Joyce after a game recently where he questioned a number of the players temperaments and mentalities.. basically saying that they think they have made it and that. it was pretty damning on the players. Maybe the downturn in results isn't just because some players are being sold

deaddonkey15

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Yep. Just showing how stats can be misleading.

Indeed. Hopefully Martial is looking to his captain to learn how to spread his influence around in a number of games.

Adamocovic

astradave wrote: »

Think I put up an interview with Joyce after a game recently where he questioned a number of the players temperaments and mentalities.. basically saying that they think they have made it and that. it was pretty damning on the players. Maybe the downturn in results isn't just because some players are being sold

Yeah I remember that video you posted. Was very concerning, about some players thinking since they were playing with United they had made it already or something along that lines.

I imagine some young lads have ego problems the minute they join a team like ours youth system.

Hopefully things will look up.

Jayop

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Yeah, read my follow up post.

They can be, because in Martial's case the good stats are clearly false positives, however in Rooney's case each assist and his goals was from his own good play.

They're not like for like comparisons. Martial has done nothing in all the games and his assists are a joke. Rooney has been poor in one game, OK in one and good in another and his 2 assists and goal were good play.

Rooney's contributions have won United points. Simple as that.

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

Class players will thrive in any team and will make their way to the very top no matter how bad a youth setup is or how poor of a team they are in. It's actually probably easier to find better players in poor teams as that's where a players character and temperament really come to the fore

I don't think your understanding my point about player development
Not everyone is born a Ronaldo

Flint Fredstone

Jayop wrote: »

They can be, because in Martial's case the good stats are clearly false positives, however in Rooney's case each assist and his goals was from his own good play.

They're not like for like comparisons. Martial has done nothing in all the games and his assists are a joke. Rooney has been poor in one game, OK in one and good in another and his 2 assists and goal were good play.

Rooney's contributions have won United points. Simple as that.

I think Rooney was poor in 2 and ok in 1. It's all a matter of opinion. Bangkok was solely using stats as a measure of how good Rooney is doing as a number 10.

Trigger

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I don't think your understanding my point about player development
Not everyone is born a Ronaldo

Except for Ronaldo and Ronaldo MK2

Jayop

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

I think Rooney was poor in 2 and ok in 1. It's all a matter of opinion.

I get that, but the point I'm making is that the point you were making about stats being rubbish was in this case a rubbish point.

Jayop

Jayop wrote: »

They can be, because in Martial's case the good stats are clearly false positives, however in Rooney's case each assist and his goals was from his own good play.

They're not like for like comparisons. Martial has done nothing in all the games and his assists are a joke. Rooney has been poor in one game, OK in one and good in another and his 2 assists and goal were good play.

Rooney's contributions have won United points. Simple as that.

Flint pointing out Matials 2 assists has a point he isnt playing well but if someone wants to argue Rooney is dont point out goals and assists as it proves nothing especially when its only 3 games

deaddonkey15

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

I think Rooney was poor in 2 and ok in 1. It's all a matter of opinion. Bangkok was solely using stats as a measure of how good Rooney is doing as a number 10.

At the end of the day, he's scoring or assisting goals in every game and United are winning and joint top of the table. He's doing what he's supposed to be doing.

Flint Fredstone

Jayop wrote: »

I get that, but the point I'm making is that the point you were making about stats being rubbish was in this case a rubbish point.

I was using an extreme example. The reason I used Martial as the example was because of the 2 "assists" and his general poor form.

I edited my other post to say that Bangkok was using stats on their own to justify Rooney at 10. My point was all about exposing the folly of that.

Adamocovic

Trigger

Jayop wrote: »

They can be, because in Martial's case the good stats are clearly false positives, however in Rooney's case each assist and his goals was from his own good play.

They're not like for like comparisons. Martial has done nothing in all the games and his assists are a joke. Rooney has been poor in one game, OK in one and good in another and his 2 assists and goal were good play.

Rooney's contributions have won United points. Simple as that.

Not getting into the whole Rooney debate as I'm sick of it at this stage, but one could argue that Martials assist for Rooneys header was not nothing. His finish was off but it was good play to get himself into that position to have the opportunity to shoot and be on the end of the cross. To write it off as as a false positive is clearly false

RobertKK

Niall Quinn says United added gold dust to their team.

Adamocovic

RobertKK wrote: »

Niall Quinn says United added gold dust to their team.

Odd signing by Ed

GSPfan

Isn't the point here lads that if you want to drop one player from the team due to stats + how he has actually performed then Martial is first? Then Mata, then Rooney.

If we can all agree on that based on the first 3 games then this whole Rooney war goes away for a while until a time the others improve or Rooney gets worse.

bangkok

Ozil had 18 assists last season. How many of those were from corners or free kicks? Do they not count as assists either as he was just crossing a ball into a crowded penalty area??

v3ttel

Adamocovic wrote: »

Odd signing by Ed

Theatre of Shattered Dreams.

Trigger

GSPfan wrote: »

Isn't the point here lads that if you want to drop one player from the team due to stats + how he has actually performed then Martial is first? Then Mata, then Rooney.

If we can all agree on that based on the first 3 games then this whole Rooney war goes away for a while until a time the others improve or Rooney gets worse.

Well if you read back on the thread that was the general thoughts of the thread as a whole, Martial and Mata for Rashford and Mhki is what was being suggested.

adox

A sample

deaddonkey15 wrote:

not supposed to talk about those games on here, it doesn't suit the anti-Rooney agenda at all. He's our worst player by far, get over it.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

Poor pass out wide to Mata by Ibrahimovich on the break there but that's ok because he isn't Rooney.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

Dont worry, it will be Rooney's fault if that happens.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

the first half Ibrahimovich played a weak pass to Fellaini and gave the ball away just outside our own box. Shaw miscontrolled a cross into the box and almost cost us a goal. It's all about Rooney's woeful touches and passes though.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

Too much common sense in this post and a far too accurate assessment of today's game for this thread. In future, just write "f*** off Rooney", sit back, and watch the thanks come in.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

slow movement around him, no lack of vision, first touch was fine the vast majority of the time, didn't float any balls out wide - a few low ones yes when required but not the usual Hollywood ones people like criticise him for. Imagine a player spreading a ball out wide at a club like Manchester United where attacks traditionally come from the wings. Mental! You forgot to mention he scored, but that doesn't suit the agenda does it?

deaddonkey15 wrote:

Thanks for your post. You hit the nail on the head and I appreciate that. It's unfortunate that sensible and reasoned posts such as this aren't more common here.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

I said before, Rooney simply can't win with the "fans" in here.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

I was waiting to see the next nonsense post in here that quickly dismissed his match winning contribution in favour of over exaggerating a poor touch he did earlier in the game.
Seriously though, I don't have BT Sport and my internet has been crap all day so I couldn't stream the game. I relied on live updates on the SkySports website, and from what I read both there and here it seemed Rooney's assist was quite good. Not that I'm surprised.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

got any clips or gifs of Rashford's goal? I didn't actually see it.

deaddonkey15 wrote:

Great that Rashford got the goal though. Was getting concerned at his lack of playing time so it's brilliant that he not only got on, but actually scored the winner from an excellent Rooney assist. Plenty of great attacking options in this side, exciting times

deaddonkey15

GSPfan wrote: »

Isn't the point here lads that if you want to drop one player from the team due to stats + how he has actually performed then Martial is first? Then Mata, then Rooney.

If we can all agree on that based on the first 3 games then this whole Rooney war goes away for a while until a time the others improve or Rooney gets worse.

That's pretty much my point since the start of the season. I'm not against Rooney being dropped, I just don't think it's necessary whilst he's delivering goals and others aren't. I'd drop Mata first though as I think an in form Martial has far more to offer.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Isn't the point here lads that if you want to drop one player from the team due to stats + how he has actually performed then Martial is first? Then Mata, then Rooney.

If we can all agree on that based on the first 3 games then this whole Rooney war goes away for a while until a time the others improve or Rooney gets worse.

Except it'd be stupid to decide if a player should be dropped or not based on his stats alone over a 3 game sample size

bangkok

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I don't think your understanding my point about player development
Not everyone is born a Ronaldo

No but players don't make the top unless they are class at their age level. The likes of David beckham, Giggs,Scholes were no ronaldos at youth level but they all had the desire, temperament and character along with savage work rate to make it to the very top

Headshot

Thank you that made my night

Manutd_4life

I guess he's gonna be lurking around with us for the next couple of months at least.

https://twitter.com/WayneRooney/status/771089929443110916

bangkok

Manutd_4life wrote: »

I guess he's gonna be lurking around with us for the next couple of months at least.

https://twitter.com/WayneRooney/status/771089929443110916

Still a class player and are great bit of experience around the club if needed. A legend of the game

GSPfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except it'd be stupid to decide if a player should be dropped or not based on his stats alone over a 3 game sample size

Yeah thats why i said stats + how he has actually performed. Dropping a player after 3 games is allowed in my opinion. Martial would be benched if I had a vote. He looks off the pace. Rashford is now better than him for me.

bangkok

bangkok wrote: »

No but players don't make the top unless they are class at their age level. The likes of David beckham, Giggs,Scholes were no ronaldos at youth level but they all had the desire, temperament and character along with savage work rate to make it to the very top

And where does that come from? Competition for places? Bursting to get noticed? Work rate? That happens in a competitive youth setup. Only then can the senior manager takes the risk in selection if said talent heads to the top of the pack.
Maybe they have been sold because they are not good enough who knows? But selling them when the team is already weakened is just something I don't agree with.
When I think about it more I'd be more concerned about the setup as a whole, it's up to youth management and training team to train, encourage and influence the young players to get the best out of them and help them develop.

Flint Fredstone

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

At the end of the day, he's scoring or assisting goals in every game and United are winning and joint top of the table. He's doing what he's supposed to be doing.

But maybe we could be winning by more and easier with Mkhitaryan there for example. I just think his all round game isn't enough. He's not the best number 10 at the club. He should be fighting it out with Ibra as the front man and Mkhitaryan and Mata should be fighting it out for 10.

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Yeah thats why i said stats + how he has actually performed. Dropping a player after 3 games is allowed in my opinion. Martial would be benched if I had a vote. He looks off the pace. Rashford is now better than him for me.

I believe he will be benched. Only to take the pressure off him. He's still so young!

GSPfan

GSPfan wrote: »

Yeah thats why i said stats + how he has actually performed. Dropping a player after 3 games is allowed in my opinion. Martial would be benched if I had a vote. He looks off the pace. Rashford is now better than him for me.

Stats over 3 games are pointless if you are going to drop them after bad performances do, you dont need stats to aid the decision surely.

Ya I agree I'd like to see Rashford have a chance..

Jayop

Deleted User wrote: »

Flint pointing out Matials 2 assists has a point he isnt playing well but if someone wants to argue Rooney is dont point out goals and assists as it proves nothing especially when its only 3 games

If the stats are nonsense as in Martial's case they are then your point doesn't apply. Had Martial stank the place up for three games generally but still had provided 2 good moments to create goals then you would have a point.

bangkok wrote: »

Ozil had 18 assists last season. How many of those were from corners or free kicks? Do they not count as assists either as he was just crossing a ball into a crowded penalty area??

What are you even talking about? Of course they count because they involved him doing something that has a bit of skill. Martial's 5 yard pass on the halfway line shouldn't count because it's quite simply not an assist. His fluffed shot should count because as bad as it was it still created the opening for the goal.

GSPfan

astradave wrote: »

Well if you read back on the thread that was the general thoughts of the thread as a whole, Martial and Mata for Rashford and Mhki is what was being suggested.

Nah that was only recently. Before the third game and even before half time in the first game the only real name on the lips was Rooney. Its changed recently as Martial has been obviously awful.

If you ask me for proof I'll say no.

deaddonkey15

adox wrote: »

A sample

Well first of all thanks for at last making the effort to back up what you said about me although I don't really know why you quoted some of the things you did. It would be more helpful if you outlined under each of the quotes what your problem with it was as some of them, such as the ones with Rashford at the end seem quite inoffensive to me.

I don't see any posts which are examples of excessive praise for Rooney and therefore examples of me being on the opposite end of the over the top Rooney criticism. I don't see any examples of me "going out my way to keep the Rooney thing going" since the Rooney thing is practically always going in here and I merely say my bit like everyone else. I don't see any examples of me making a mountain out of a mole hill which you also accuse me of. If anything, apart from a few admittedly "snarky" posts, they generally fall under the umbrella of context and perspective which is what I've always said about my Rooney posts. Bear in mind also that these posts, for the most part at least, are not made in isolation as it would appear that way in how you've presented them but that's unavoidable to be honest.

Still though, at least you replied with what I asked for, hopefully others will take a leaf out of your book in future.

Flint Fredstone

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Well first of all thanks for at last making the effort to back up what you said about me although I don't really know why you quoted some of the things you did. It would be more helpful if you outlined under each of the quotes what your problem with it was as some of them, such as the ones with Rashford at the end seem quite inoffensive to me.

I don't see any posts which are examples of excessive praise for Rooney and therefore examples of me being on the opposite end of the over the top Rooney criticism. I don't see any examples of me "going out my way to keep the Rooney thing going" since the Rooney thing is practically always going in here and I merely say my bit like everyone else. I don't see any examples of me making a mountain out of a mole hill which you also accuse me of. If anything, apart from a few admittedly "snarky" posts, they generally fall under the umbrella of context and perspective which is what I've always said about my Rooney posts. Bear in mind also that these posts, for the most part at least, are not made in isolation as it would appear that way in how you've presented them but that's unavoidable to be honest.

Still though, at least you replied with what I asked for, hopefully others will take a leaf out of your book in future.

People are free to make a point without having to forensically comb through whatever it is you request.

I hope miki is OK......

deaddonkey15

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

But maybe we could be winning by more and easier with Mkhitaryan there for example. I just think his all round game isn't enough. He's not the best number 10 at the club. He should be fighting it out with Ibra as the front man and Mkhitaryan and Mata should be fighting it out for 10.

A fair point, and it's likely that Mkhitaryan would do well if he came in at number 10. I just don't see the logic in dropping him whilst he is actively contributing to United winning matches. He has been positively influencing United's results consistently since the back end of last season. If Mkhitaryan is to come in, I think it's logical that he replaces someone that isn't positively influencing results as much as Rooney namely Mata and Martial. I would so0ner drop Mata because a) he isn't a natural right winger whereas Mkhitaryan does have the ability to play there and b) as I said already tonight I think Martial has more to offer when on form. He's got pace, and the ability to beat a man and he can finish.

Trigger

M!Ck^ wrote: »

I hope miki is OK......

Seemed fine walking off the pitch and was supposedly taken off as a precaution as the have a qualifier coming up

Nalz

Wayne Rooney

deaddonkey15

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

People are free to make a point without having to forensically comb through whatever it is you request.

True. However I think when people start making accusations against other posters I think the decent thing to do is provide some sort of proof.

astradave

astradave wrote: »

Seemed fine walking off the pitch and was supposedly taken off as a precaution as the have a qualifier coming up

Rather he didn't play for the fear of him making it worse

jayo26

Nalz wrote: »

Wayne Rooney

NANI was crap.

Adamocovic

Nalz wrote: »

Wayne Rooney

brinty

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

People are free to make a point without having to forensically comb through whatever it is you request.

Oh my brother...... TESTIFY.....

jayo26

jayo26 wrote: »

NANI was crap.

Berbatov

brinty

jayo26 wrote: »

NANI was crap.

Anderson was fat....