Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

deaddonkey15

edgecutter wrote: »

We are chasing the game so of course he will get more of the ball. 4-2-3-1 is set up to accommodate him, when 4-3-3 worked a lot better for us in the second half and that formation should mean no room for Rooney.

If you want to see what a good No.10 is look at De Brunye today and compare what Rooney has offered us for the last 3 years.

So when Rooney does something positive, it doesn't count if it's in a period where United are chasing the game? 4-2-3-1 is set up to accommodate everyone on the team, not just Rooney. We played well at 4-3-3 today and Rooney was still on the pitch, so why should that formation mean the end of him? Who would replace him anyway? Mkhitaryan? Lingard? Not on today's trainwreck of a performance anyway.

Yeah I'll look at de Bruyne today to see a good 10. I'll look at Fernandinho too to see a good CM, not Pogba. I'll look at Nolito and Sterling and Silva to see good wingers, not Mkhitaryan or Martial or Lingard. I'll look at Iheanacho to see a good striker, not Ibrahimovich. I'll look at Stones and Otamendi to see a good centre half partnership.

Mantis Toboggan

Hope Jose isn't going to be afraid to take abra off, he was very poor today especially in the second half. He didn't look fit, Rashford was too far from goal and should have been put up top.

Manutd_4life

Jose thinks we should have had 2 penalties!

The first one is a clear red and penalty.

Second one, I don't think so

user2011

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

But neither of the goals were Valencia's fault?

Weren't his fault, the pressure felt on the rest of defense by him being targeted would open up gaps else were.

First one yes, i blame miki for not pressuring the long ball option up field but pressure creates doubt else where

adox

That Bravo challenge looks worse everytime. Awful decision.

Second one wasn't a peno.

Lord TSC

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Ibra is a complete passenger and his inability to press is inviting serious pressure onto the team. No doubt about his skills and ability to score but Pep got rid of him sharpish when he took over at Barcelona and it's clear why. Can Utd really afford to carry him each PL game?

He may have had a bad game, but he's still 4 goals in 4 games. I wish we had more "passengers" like that :pac:

Cantona's Collars

Very honest from Jose,he brought in 3 players for their individual qualities and they didn't perform,"their fault but mostly my fault,'cos I'm the manager".

Souness said the Bravo challenge was even a red card back in his day.

deaddonkey15

edgecutter wrote: »

Ibra is a new signing that has score 4 goals already this season. Like any new signing people will cut him some slack for his performance. That said I was disappointed with him, but he is nearly 35.

I'm all for cutting slack for a poor performance. But Ibrahimovich is a top class and experienced striker, and I can't cut slack of a piss poor uncomposed shot whilst the opposition keeper is off his line

FutureGuy

adox wrote: »

That Bravo challenge looks worse everytime. Awful decision.

Second one wasn't a peno.

If that was an outfield player, it was a free kick and a card every day of the week.

Rayne Wooney

That game wasn't close at all, City clearly ahead.

Take the result and learn from it, City had one designated midfielder on the pitch and we didn't exploit it.

Lord TSC

Were the rules not changed that it can't be a penalty AND a red? Mind, we didn't get either, but if the decision had gone our way and we got the peno, wouldn't it just have been a yellow?

adox

user2011 wrote: »

Weren't his fault, the pressure felt on the rest of defense by him being targeted would open up gaps else were.

First one yes, i blame miki for not pressuring the long ball option up field but pressure creates doubt else where

Just on this one with Miki. I don't actually blame him for that. Despite Rooney urging him to press the ball with the crowd going mad, the tactics had obviously been to drop off and let City have the ball at the back. They were nearly on their own goal line at the time.

He was useless today but I think too much is being made out of this.

Pro. F

user2011 wrote: »

Weren't his fault, the pressure felt on the rest of defense by him being targeted would open up gaps else were.

First one yes, i blame miki for not pressuring the long ball option up field but pressure creates doubt else where

Valencia wasn't being targeted. No more than the entire defence was.

Edit: Also, no way for the front players to close down every option for a long pass. The press was only an isolated effort from the front lads, which would have been a choice from Jose. The CBs were in a position to deal with the long pass (ie deep) but Bailly made a disaster of it and then Blind got caught out.

Notorious

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

He gave more to the team today than anyone else bar perhaps Rashford.

We must've been watching a different game so.

He showed glimpses of the player he used to be, and he put in some good crosses to the box. He could've easily had two yellows today, but the referee ignored his fouls until he tackled Bravo.

I don't think anyone could argue with Rooney being benched for the next game. Try a different selection up front and see how that works for us.

chupacabra

Manutd_4life wrote: »

Jose thinks we should have had 2 penalties!

The first one is a clear red and penalty.

Second one, I don't think so

I agree, that handball would have been very harsh. No doubt on the first one tho. Spineless from the ref

adox

Lord TSC wrote: »

Were the rules not changed that it can't be a penalty AND a red? Mind, we didn't get either, but if the decision had gone our way and we got the peno, wouldn't it just have been a yellow?

No I think that was for a professional foul. Like pulling a player back or tripping him in the box.

I'd be calling for a red, not because it was stopping a goal scoring opportunity but because the challenge was a red card challenge no matter where on the pitch it happened.

Flint Fredstone

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Ibra is a complete passenger and his inability to press is inviting serious pressure onto the team. No doubt about his skills and ability to score but Pep got rid of him sharpish when he took over at Barcelona and it's clear why. Can Utd really afford to carry him each PL game?

Speaking of players who were gotten rid of sharpish, Mourinho got rid of KDB at Chelsea but paid £100m for Pogba who was totally ill disciplined (in terms of positioning) and totally outclassed by KDB.

Some big question marks about whether Mourinho is the manager he once was or the manager who got fired from Chelsea last year. I know it's too early to tell but he lost today on all fronts i.e. tactics, team selection and the quality of the players he signed. The only one who looks to be justifying his place is Bailly. The other three are very questionable as is his continued persistence with Rooney.

Je suis Yawn... encore.

Cantona's Collars

Lord TSC wrote: »

Were the rules not changed that it can't be a penalty AND a red? Mind, we didn't get either, but if the decision had gone our way and we got the peno, wouldn't it just have been a yellow?

It depends on how serious the challenge is,if you drag somebody back in the area or trip them as last man back it is no longer a red but is a pen,if you do what Bravo did,it is a red and a pen.

Lord TSC

Notorious wrote: »

I don't think anyone could argue with Rooney being benched for the next game. Try a different selection up front and see how that works for us.

I'd be expecting 90% of the players who played today to be "benched" for the next game; Europa League should be the chance for the likes of Rashford to start, Mata in at #10, and I'd have Martial and Mkhitaryan out wide to try to give them a confidence booster (could see Memphis in for one of them though). Herrera and Schnderlin starting in midfield. TFM, Smalling starting in defence too.

deaddonkey15

Lord TSC wrote: »

Were the rules not changed that it can't be a penalty AND a red? Mind, we didn't get either, but if the decision had gone our way and we got the peno, wouldn't it just have been a yellow?

For last man back "tackles" I think. The Bravo tackle in isolation was a red card offense so I think it should have been both.

Notorious wrote: »

We must've been watching a different game so.

Must have. What other United player was more involved in anything positive United did than Rooney?

Cantona's Collars

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Je suis Yawn... encore.

Fucking Zlatan!! All he does is score goals.:)

Notorious

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'd be expecting 90% of the players who played today to be "benched" for the next game; Europa League...

I should've said PL game :pac:

deaddonkey15 wrote:

Must have. What other United player was more involved in anything positive United did than Rooney?

Herrera

Flint Fredstone

Thought it was a decent game myself. We just started really poorly.
City were just so much sharper in every position in the first half.

Flint Fredstone

zerks wrote: »

Fucking Zlatan!! All he does is score goals.:)

I know like, who needs that sh*t???

Pro. F

Notorious wrote: »

We must've been watching a different game so.

He showed glimpses of the player he used to be, and he put in some good crosses to the box. He could've easily had two yellows today, but the referee ignored his fouls until he tackled Bravo.

I don't think anyone could argue with Rooney being benched for the next game. Try a different selection up front and see how that works for us.

How do you know he would have made the tackle on Bravo if he'd been on a yellow? He made a few aggressive tackles and got a yellow card - big ****in deal. But as usual a totally new framework of understanding the game is invented in order to criticise Rooney.

RobertKK

I would not worry about today.
We lost, but the positive is the turn around after going 2-0 down. United were unlucky not to get at least one penalty, and we didn't take our chances, though one could argue the same with the chances City were unfortunate with like de Bruyne's in the 2nd half.

It is questionable if this stage if Bravo is better or worse for our biggest rival. He should have been sent off today.

Lord TSC

RobertKK wrote: »

It is questionable if this stage if Bravo is better or worse for our biggest rival. He should have been sent off today.

I'd be fairly confident, based on today, he'll cost them points, especially when they start facing teams with more aggressive hoofball tactics...

Notorious

Pro. F wrote: »

How do you know he would have made the tackle on Bravo if he'd been on a yellow?

Naturally you'd expect him to not have made a foul like that if he was on a yellow. Regardless, it was a pointless foul. Not sure what your point is here.

Chris_Bradley

Well beaten overall, only for the City's keeper we would have looked well spent.

Lord TSC

Looking at the next few games, we've got a fairly easy run up till Liverpool in mid-october (and I say them cause thats always a weird game where form goes out the window).
Feyenoord (a), Watford(a), Northampton(a), Leicester (h), Zorya Luhansk(h), Stoke(h), Liverpool(a).

Chelsea on the 23rd October is the next "Top 4" game, so to speak.

Pro. F

Notorious wrote: »

Naturally you'd expect him to not have made a foul like that if he was on a yellow. Regardless, it was a pointless foul. Not sure what your point is here.

That your claim that he could have easily got two yellows is wrong. Any other player and nothing would be said about it. Some aggressive tackles, up until he got carded - it's a complete none-issue.

Manutd_4life

Not too bothered tbh with today's result. Still very early in the season and Jose is still experimenting with the squad.

The next couple of weeks are packed with games so we should see a lot of different players. As long as we keep improving and don't repeat mistakes like we did so many times last season, we should be fine

Son Of A Vidic

Only have ourselves to blame for the loss. Slow, tentative and sluggish for the entire first half. Much better in the second half and If you think back to last year, I feel a LVG team could have lost that game 4-0 against this same City side. City probably deserve to edge it by virtue of how poor we were in the first half. But that said, Mark Clattenberg had the biggest influence on the game and the final result, when he denied us a blatant penalty. If a player goes through an opponent with studs up anywhere else on the pitch, then that's a blatant sending off. But today, for reasons known only to Clattenberg, he thought that tackle was perfectly acceptable in the penalty area. Anyway, I though ye might be interested, here's a picture of Clattenberg reffing a week 3 PL game........





...................:pac:

deaddonkey15

Notorious wrote: »

I should've said PL game :pac:



Herrera

Really, in less than 45 mins? Still, if only Herrera offered more than Rooney today then he mustn't have done too bad.

Today I saw Rooney send in the ball that led to our goal. He crossed in for Ibrahimovich's header late in the first half which he arguably should have scored. He crossed in for Lingard which drew Bravo out of the goal to set up a sitter for Ibrahimovich - which he should have scored. He took a throw from de Gea in the first half, turned and immediately set Mkhitaryan free for a counter attack in acres of space. He forced Bravo into the tackle which should have resulted in a penalty and a red. He almost got on the end of two good chances in the 2nd half, one with his head and one at his feet. He cleared at least one cross in to the United box that I recall. In general, he always showed for the ball and put many balls into the box - more so than any other United player I reckon. One of those balls, should possibly have been a penalty too.

What were Herrera's inputs?

Cantona's Collars

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What were Herrera's inputs?

Notorious

Pro. F wrote: »

That your claim that he could have easily got two yellows is wrong. Any other player and nothing would be said about it. Some aggressive tackles, up until he got carded - it's a complete none-issue.

I was just making a point that he threw in a lot of bad tackles and that could be seen as a liability. It's not a massive issue. Fellani was given a yellow so easily (and harshly IMO).

I'd criticise any player who had a poor performance. Rooney hasn't been great this season. I don't understand the refusal to accept criticism of him. I'm not saying he's the reason we lost today, or that he's the weakest link in the team. But I do think we should be trying a different combination up front.

Pro. F

Lingard had a nightmare today, no doubt about it. But that is not reperesntative of his ability, just like you could say about the whole team in that first 40 minutes.

Pogba is a puzzling one. He did some great stuff, mostly dribbling and tackling, but he gave the ball away too easily. He does not look like a CM for a a two man partnership, but today is only one game tbf.

tastyt

United had 39percent possession, were wide open in midfield where kdb , fernandinho and silva made hay and still you have people who go on about fellaini " bossing " it. Seems all he has to do is keep possession and people give him a free pass.

Would have been a couple of more in it had aguero played and bravo not **** himself

edgecutter

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

So when Rooney does something positive, it doesn't count if it's in a period where United are chasing the game? 4-2-3-1 is set up to accommodate everyone on the team, not just Rooney. We played well at 4-3-3 today and Rooney was still on the pitch, so why should that formation mean the end of him? Who would replace him anyway? Mkhitaryan? Lingard? Not on today's trainwreck of a performance anyway.

Yeah I'll look at de Bruyne today to see a good 10. I'll look at Fernandinho too to see a good CM, not Pogba. I'll look at Nolito and Sterling and Silva to see good wingers, not Mkhitaryan or Martial or Lingard. I'll look at Iheanacho to see a good striker, not Ibrahimovich. I'll look at Stones and Otamendi to see a good centre half partnership.

A lot of United players didn't play well today, but they have it in them to play better and match a lot of what City's players done today.

Rooney hasn't performed well for a long time. Yes there have been glimpses, but he isn't a patch on De Brunye as a No.10. Now it looks like we are going to shoe horn on to the wings in games just so he plays.

Any criticism of Rooney and we get the same response "He wasn't as bad as..." or "he was better than last week" it is becoming painful to listen too.

Pro. F

Notorious wrote: »

I was just making a point that he threw in a lot of bad tackles and that could be seen as a liability. It's not a massive issue. Fellani was given a yellow so easily (and harshly IMO).

I'd criticise any player who had a poor performance. Rooney hasn't been great this season. I don't understand the refusal to accept criticism of him. I'm not saying he's the reason we lost today, or that he's the weakest link in the team. But I do think we should be trying a different combination up front.

But he didn't throw in a lot of bad tackles. It was a derby, he was aggressive. He got one yellow and you're pretending like that is an issue. It wasn't.

Peist2007

tastyt wrote: »

United had 39percent possession, were wide open in midfield where kdb , fernandinho and silva made hay and still you have people who go on about fellaini " bossing " it. Seems all he has to do is keep possession and people give him a free pass.

Would have been a couple of more in it had aguero played and bravo not **** himself

Fellaini was fighting a battle with a passenger beside him. Hence why Herrera had to come on.

Cantona's Collars

I was amazed at how many 50/50 tackles we lost in the first half,when you have a midget like Silva out-tackling you then something is wrong.We lacked aggression in the first half and City could play any way they wanted.
In the second half we bucked up our ideas and the whole pass,pass,move tempo of their game crumbled as they hoofed the ball away,cynically fouled and tried to catch us on the counter.
It is only the 4th game of the season and we had players off form and travelling back over thousands of miles within a day or so of the game.One defeat to City won't determine the outcome of the league.I'm disappointed yes,but after the shte we had to put up with under LVG even this defeat was better to look at than watching a lot of the wins we had under him.

Polo_Mint

Mkhitaryan embarrassed himself on the pitch today followed closely by Lingard

Pyjamarama

Pogba is being played too deep. But Fellani can't really man that space on his own so Pogba has to do it. Put someone like Matic there and you'd see the best of Pogba. I reckon thats the position that United will most likely address in January. I thought Morgan would get a look in but that doesn't look likely and tbf its not like he's taken his chance when they've come up.

City were scary in the first half, no team in the league could live with them when they play like that. If Aguero is out there they'd prob have got a few more. United infi better in the second half but city were shook up by the Bravo error (tho was it a Stones error really...). We'll never know if united would have come out like that if they were 2-0 but Jose made EXCELLENT changes, showing his class and it made a huge difference. Peps response was also excellent and Fernando helped a ton.

Thought Shaw was magnificent and uniteds best player by a mile. Best fullback in the league hands down.

City look a team built to dominate the opposition, United right now look like a team that will live off moments of magic from their superstars, but they have the superstars to do that effectively for now and in time Jose will have them ever better drilled and the solidity will come. Its gonna be super close this year. As someone looking in from the outside i'm excited.

adox

Pro. F wrote: »

Lingard had a nightmare today, no doubt about it. But that is not reperesntative of his ability, just like you could say about the whole team in that first 40 minutes.

Pogba is a puzzling one. He did some great stuff, mostly dribbling and tackling, but he gave the ball away too easily. He does not look like a CM for a a two man partnership, but today is only one game tbf.

That's my issue with our midfield choices. Pogba, who looks a certain starter doesn't seem to suit a two man midfield. Herrera, who a lot of fans are calling to start all the time doesn't either. Both would be better suited to a midfield three, yet Jose plays two.

You can "get away with it" in lesser games perhaps but not at today's level.

edgecutter

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Mkhitaryan embarrassed himself on the pitch today followed closely by Lingard

It was a shame that he was poor. However, I probably would have left him on especially for his pace on the right wing. He could have been a lot more dangerous in the second half with the change to 4-3-3.

adox

tastyt wrote: »

United had 39percent possession, were wide open in midfield where kdb , fernandinho and silva made hay and still you have people who go on about fellaini " bossing " it. Seems all he has to do is keep possession and people give him a free pass.

Would have been a couple of more in it had aguero played and bravo not **** himself

If Bailly and Blind hadn't ****ed up City would have only scored one.
If Clattenberg had been competent Utd would have had a peno, perhaps a second goal and City would have been down to 10 men and lost 2-1.


If my Aunt had balls...

adox

That's the first 90 minutes I've seen City play under Pep and I'm amazed how quickly he has them looking like a Pep team.

Further ahead than Jose at stamping his style on his team.

Pro. F

adox wrote: »

That's my issue with our midfield choices. Pogba, who looks a certain starter doesn't seem to suit a two man midfield. Herrera, who a lot of fans are calling to start all the time doesn't either. Both would be better suited to a midfield three, yet Jose plays two.

You can "get away with it" in lesser games perhaps but not at today's level.

I think Herrera can do that midfield job myself. But then Pogba would need to be pushed forward or wider, and that was not what Jose bought him for. Hopefully Jose manages to find whatever the balance it is that works.

Lord TSC

Pro. F wrote: »

I think Herrera can do that midfield job myself. But then Pogba would need to be pushed forward or wider, and that was not what Jose bought him for. Hopefully Jose manages to find whatever the balance it is that works.

I'm wondering if you could do a midfield three of.

Striker
Winger

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Winger
Pogba - Herrera
Fellaini