Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

Korat

intellectual dosser wrote: »

What I'd allow for Rooney is that he showed a bit of grit and determination when City were rampant in the first half, and I think players responded it helped stem that onslaught. Stats wont show that.

The result of the game shows his huffing and puffing had no inspirational effect as capatin.

Wayne Rooney fans will see what they want to see but maybe they're happy with Utd being a cup team as long as their boy is leading them out.
..much like many LFC fans were blinded by badge kisser Gerrard.

bangkok

crkball6 wrote: »

Most people completely misunderstand the skill that's involved to take an effective corner. You could stick me on corners for united and I could hit a united player at about 80% success. That's the easy part.

What's very very difficult is to put the ball in with enough pace, high enough to beat the man on the post but not so high it misses everyone while far out enough that's difficult for the keeper not to claim it.

This is really, really hard. There's a reason corner success rate is so low it makes you wonder why people get so excited about a corner. 10/11 men behind a ball perfectly set to defend it.

I think it would be unusual for Jose to allow Rooney take them if there was someone on the team consistently better at taking them.

Beckham was the best dead ball specialist i have ever seen. Class

Pro. F

Korat wrote: »

The result of the game shows his huffing and puffing had no inspirational effect as capatin.

Wayne Rooney fans will see what they want to see but maybe they're happy with Utd being a cup team as long as their boy is leading them out.
..much like many LFC fans were blinded by badge kisser Gerrard.

Or maybe they just disagree with your opinion. Couldn't possibly be that I suppose.

intellectual dosser

Korat wrote: »

intellectual dosser wrote: »

What I'd allow for Rooney is that he showed a bit of grit and determination when City were rampant in the first half, and I think players responded it helped stem that onslaught. Stats wont show that.

The result of the game shows his huffing and puffing had no inspirational effect as capatin.

Wayne Rooney fans will see what they want to see but maybe they're happy with Utd being a cup team as long as their boy is leading them out.
..much like many LFC fans were blinded by badge kisser Gerrard.

Nice assumption.

I've never been a big Wayne Rooney fan, but I know we were 2-0 down and he started showing the kind of attitude you'd expect from a player in a derby. 30 minutes later than it should have been, but its clear that United showed a lot more grit in the final hour of the game and I think that was from leading by Rooney's example. We'd have been worse off without him on Saturday.

Cantona's Collars

MANCHESTER UNITED have hired scout Roy Beukenkamp from PSV Eindhoven, according to reports.

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/544933/Man-United-Transfer-News-Jose-Mourinho-Done-Deal-Gossip-Rumours-latest-Premier-League

The club is really on a mission to revamp their scouting system.

Korat

Pro. F wrote: »

Or maybe they just disagree with your opinion. Couldn't possibly be that I suppose.

Seems to me that some people would rather keep changing manager and every other player than admit Rooney is the problem.

Cantona's Collars

crkball6 wrote: »

Most people completely misunderstand the skill that's involved to take an effective corner. You could stick me on corners for united and I could hit a united player at about 80% success. That's the easy part.

What's very very difficult is to put the ball in with enough pace, high enough to beat the man on the post but not so high it misses everyone while far out enough that's difficult for the keeper not to claim it.

This is really, really hard. There's a reason corner success rate is so low it makes you wonder why people get so excited about a corner. 10/11 men behind a ball perfectly set to defend it.

I think it would be unusual for Jose to allow Rooney take them if there was someone on the team consistently better at taking them.

I think it is unusual for Jose to keep Rooney on corner taking duty,his biggest fan (LVG) took that away from him.By the law of averages,he should have at least picked out one team mate from all the corners he took.The new rules about grabbing and pulling in the box should make corners more of a threat especially now that we have bigger players who are excellent in the air.
At the very least he could vary his methods from trying to whip it in which hits the nearest defender.The running joke before was that we need not have bothered taking corners as we were never a threat from them but now with Zlatan,Pogba etc. towering in the box we have some chance of scoring,if only the guy taking the corners would actually aim for them.

Pro. F

Korat wrote: »

Seems to me that some people would rather keep changing manager and every other player than admit Rooney is the problem.

Seems to me that you are trying to discredit the people you disagree with by making things up.

Polo_Mint

PL 2015-2016 - Bournemouth v Man U - 2 -1
PL 2016-2017 - Bournemouth v Man U - 1 -3

PL 2015-2016 - Man U v Southampton - 0 -1
PL 2016-2017 - Man U v Southampton - 2 -0

PL 2016-2017 - Hull v Man U - 0 -1

PL 2015-2016 - Man U v Man C - 0 -0
PL 2016-2017 - Man U v Man C - 1 -2

Leroy42

If corners are so difficult, and based on the outcome of Rooney's corners then lets assume this, then why persist on trying to hit them into the box?

Why not take a short corner to force the defence to move out, of simply treat the corner like a free kick and look to maintain the ball.

It seems crazy to simply continue to try something, it continually fails and then we have fans on here telling us how hard it really is so we shouldn't be surprised.

Is Rooney's terrible corners any worse than Coutinho's continuous 30 yards Row Z shots?

Leroy42

KdB showed the type of player that Mu need. Can any fan really say that Rooney is anywhere close (on current form) to KdB?

You can argue the stats etc of Rooney all day but KdB showed exactly what he should be achieving.

Polo_Mint

Leroy42 wrote: »

KdB showed the type of player that Mu need. Can any fan really say that Rooney is anywhere close (on current form) to KdB?

You can argue the stats etc of Rooney all day but KdB showed exactly what he should be achieving.

Its never gonna matter

Love him or Hate him, He will always be in the starting 11 unless injured.

bangkok

Leroy42 wrote: »

KdB showed the type of player that Mu need. Can any fan really say that Rooney is anywhere close (on current form) to KdB?

You can argue the stats etc of Rooney all day but KdB showed exactly what he should be achieving.

kevin de bruynes "current form" of 6 games 1 goal??

v3ttel

Leroy42 wrote: »

KdB showed the type of player that Mu need. Can any fan really say that Rooney is anywhere close (on current form) to KdB?

Does he have to be close to him? A different player, playing for a different team, playing in a different style and in a different position?

I'm neither one side or other on the Rooney debate, but come on. There is some amount of dross being posted. KdB might be flavour of the month because he had a good game on Saturday, but don't forget that he was very poor during the Euros and was poor away from home for large parts of last season.

deaddonkey15

Korat wrote: »

The result of the game shows his huffing and puffing had no inspirational effect as capatin.

How about the fact that we were on course for an absolute hammering and ended up unlucky not to get a 2-2 draw? Does he not get credit as captain for helping to turn that around? He was involved in practically everything United did from an attacking point of view on Saturday. He risked serious injury challenging Bravo for that ball which should have resulted in a red and penalty which would have hugely swung the game in United's favour, perhaps if Bailly showed the same hunger we wouldn't have conceded the first? Perhaps if Mkhitaryan followed his captain's instructions and pressed Kolarov, we wouldn't have conceded the first either? He created 2 brilliant chances at the end of the first half which would have sent us in level at half time had Ibrahimovich managed to convert just 1 of them. He didn't hide from the ball like Pogba, or actively prevent United from trying to play like Mkhitaryan and Lingard.

To be honest if those United players need Rooney to give them inspiration to not get hammered by City at home in Old Trafford then they shouldn't be next or near the club.

TheDoc

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Looking forward to watching the team on Thursday.

Would like to see Schneiderlin, Herrera and Pogba in midfield, with maybe Martial, Rashford and Mkhitaryan as the front three (thought Mkhitaryan did himself no favours at the weekend.... rubbish!)
Also hoping to see Fosu-Mensah get a start. Would imagine Smalling will come in too.

Probably be tough for Mourinho to experiment much with an on paper tough away game, but would love to see that 4-3-3 from the start.

Had concerns about 4-2-3-1 with Pogba and thus far can't say I'm anyway changing my feelings that the team would be better served in a 4-3-3.

unfortuantely that means removing Rooney which likely won't be happening anytime soon. I watched a recording of the match after the fact, and the contrast between Silva/De Bruyne and Rooney was palpable, and basically just put perfectly into context the issues I have with Rooney.

TheDoc

Manutd_4life wrote: »

Memphis needs to start imo. He hasn't even been on the bench in recent weeks. He needs games for his confidence. I still believe he can make something of himself at the club.

With the standard of our wide players thus far, I hope he really takes this opportunity and gives Mourinho a selection headache.

Mhyki is clearly taking some time to adjust but surely will find his feet and become a staple of our team on the right flank.

Memphis only really fits into the left channel, and considering the sluggish start Martial has made, everything is set for him to setup up and start starting. He just needs to take the opportunities he's given this month.

deaddonkey15

Leroy42 wrote: »

KdB showed the type of player that Mu need. Can any fan really say that Rooney is anywhere close (on current form) to KdB?

You can argue the stats etc of Rooney all day but KdB showed exactly what he should be achieving.

De Bruyne was given the freedom of Old Trafford by Pogba and Fellaini and was part of a very strong and cohesive side that utterly dominated United in the opening half. He was aided by having wingers alongside him that could control the ball and had some decent ideas on what to do with it. Rooney had to perform in the exact opposite of these conditions. Unfair to compare their performances on the day.

Cantona's Collars

Manchester United’s revenue for 2015/16 was £515.3 million – second only to Spanish titans Barcelona – and in turn becoming the first English club to break the £500 million mark.

The financial results take into account the 2016 fiscal fourth quarter and twelve months running up to 30 June 2016.

“Our record Fiscal 2016 financial performance reflects the continued underlying strength of the business and the Club is on target to achieve record revenues in 2017, even without a contribution from the Champions League,” chief executive Ed Woodward said.

“This strong financial performance has enabled us to invest in our squad, team management and facilities to position us to challenge for, and win, trophies in the coming years.”

Their 14 sponsorship deals – six of them being global ones – also helped the club, with Manchester United revealing they are now targeting revenue between £530 million and £540 million for 2017.

Manchester United also reveal their commercial, broadcast and matchday revenue were up by £71.4 million, £32.7 million and £16 million respectively.

Read more at http://www.squawka.com/news/manchester-united-become-the-first-premier-league-club-to-earn-over-half-1bn-in-a-year/770127#K8ZOS5Kk7BOm8vXK.99


Remember all the naysayers telling us the club was going to be ruined and opposition fans rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of us going bust? Well that never happened and we are richer than ever even in the sugardaddy world of football we have now.

TheDoc

v3ttel wrote: »

Does he have to be close to him? A different player, playing for a different team, playing in a different style and in a different position?

I'm neither one side or other on the Rooney debate, but come on. There is some amount of dross being posted. KdB might be flavour of the month because he had a good game on Saturday, but don't forget that he was very poor during the Euros and was poor away from home for large parts of last season.

De Bruyne has been fantastic for City, fantastic.

I don't believe it's about comparing player for player, De Bruyne is far superior for this current iteration of Rooney.

Where it grates for people like me, is that , that level of dynamism and creativity is what we should expect from our #10 if we play with one. Or considering the money we are spending, that is an area to be possibly addressed next season if things don't drastically improve.

And if I'm honest, we simply have not had a good history with playing 10's in the modern sense. Sure we had a deeper striker, but that was always part of a 4-4-2.

If you look at it, we have had some pretty good 10's in recent memory, and none have worked out and made the position their own. That's why I'm somewhat hesitant about the current formation. Something is just screaming at me 4-3-3 is right.

TheDoc

zerks wrote: »

Read more at http://www.squawka.com/news/manchester-united-become-the-first-premier-league-club-to-earn-over-half-1bn-in-a-year/770127#K8ZOS5Kk7BOm8vXK.99


Remember all the naysayers telling us the club was going to be ruined and opposition fans rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of us going bust? Well that never happened and we are richer than ever even in the sugardaddy world of football we have now.

What's more important is hopefully going forward we are going to put that to proper use, and throw that power around a bit.

For too long it was just talk of being a top club and being one of the wealthiest. Needs to result in building strong squads and winning trophies.

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

Read more at http://www.squawka.com/news/manchester-united-become-the-first-premier-league-club-to-earn-over-half-1bn-in-a-year/770127#K8ZOS5Kk7BOm8vXK.99

Remember all the naysayers telling us the club was going to be ruined and opposition fans rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of us going bust? Well that never happened and we are richer than ever even in the sugardaddy world of football we have now.

The fact that the risk taken worked out in the end does not mean that it was okay to that that risk.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

With the standard of our wide players thus far, I hope he really takes this opportunity and gives Mourinho a selection headache.

Mhyki is clearly taking some time to adjust but surely will find his feet and become a staple of our team on the right flank.

Memphis only really fits into the left channel, and considering the sluggish start Martial has made, everything is set for him to setup up and start starting. He just needs to take the opportunities he's given this month.

to be honest i cannot see memphis with us after next season, he just doesnt have the right mental attitude to play with a club of our size

Pro. F

I love that the criticism of Rooney has now transformed into saying that our number 10 should be playing like De Bruyne did on Saturday. Never mind that United as a whole played terribly and so De Bruyne had every advantage to have such a good game. Never mind that De Bruyne doesn't play that well every week. And never mind that most of City's midfield and forwards played better than United's. Now that one game from De Bruyne is supposedly the standard that United need at number 10.

So many of the Rooney critics are so flakey. It is just a constantly changing mix of wildly different reasoning; always changing arguments that are extremely rarely defended or ever even referred to again once they prove to be false. It's like arguing with climate change deniers.

Korat

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Unfair to compare their performances on the day.

So which of Rooney's performances would you consider it fair to compare with?

When he had a great game against Barnsley 5 years ago?

bangkok

Korat wrote: »

So which of Rooney's performances would you consider it fair to compare with?

When he had a great game against Barnsley 5 years ago?

compare it to de bruynes previous game v sunderland where he was extremely poor or did you not see that game??

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

I love that the criticism of Rooney has now transformed into saying that our number 10 should be playing like De Bruyne did on Saturday. Never mind that that United as a whole played terribly and so De Bruyne had every advantage to have such a a good game. Never mind that De Bruyne doesn't play that well every week. And never mind that most of City's midfield and forwards played better than United. Now that one game from De Bruyne is supposedly the standard that United need at number 10.

So many of the Rooney critics are so flakey. It is just a constantly changing mix of wildly different reasoning; always changing arguments that are extremely rarely defended or ever even referred to again once they prove to be false. It's like arguing with climate change deniers.

It's wildly different because we are trying to find a way to get across to the defenders. Because I'd imagine it's just so blatantly obvious to us.

It's not just one game, I could pick many a 10 from around Europe as an example, to which a team of our size should expect, compared to what we are getting.

And De Bruyne has been brilliant since he arrived at City, along with his previous season with Wolfsburg. This isn't a flash in the pan player, this is a top player. A player we should have been in for in all honesty.

I'd also say that in my mind, none of the reasoning I have for been critical of Rooney have been "proved wrong". Not even close.

I also think your getting a bit big for your boots belittling the detractors. Climate change is an obvious, scientifically proven thing. There is simply no room for opinion or beliefs, as it's facts, it's science and that is the end of it.

It's clear with Rooney there is two camps, and neither are really budging. I know after the derby, watching it granted after it had taken place, I was going apoplectic about Rooney in the first 30 minutes at how he was playing, never mind Lingard.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

compare it to de bruynes previous game v sunderland where he was extremely poor or did you not see that game??

Or you could maybe stop missing the point entirely.

The comparison isn't on one match that happened on Saturday. De Bruyne has been incredible since he arrived at City and the season before.

In stark contrast to what Rooney has been doing the last two seasons.

The comparison is apt, in relation to the returns and performances City are getting from a player who takes up similar positions to Rooney.

PhlegmyMoses

Pro. F wrote: »

I love that the criticism of Rooney has now transformed into saying that our number 10 should be playing like De Bruyne did on Saturday. Never mind that United as a whole played terribly and so De Bruyne had every advantage to have such a a good game. Never mind that De Bruyne doesn't play that well every week. And never mind that most of City's midfield and forwards played better than United. Now that one game from De Bruyne is supposedly the standard that United need at number 10.

So many of the Rooney critics are so flakey. It is just a constantly changing mix of wildly different reasoning; always changing arguments that are extremely rarely defended or ever even referred to again once they prove to be false. It's like arguing with climate change deniers.

Tbf, De Bruyne was better than Rooney last year. Whatever about people forming that opinion because of Saturday, you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who would honestly, with no bias, prefer Rooney over De Bruyne. It's a bad example for you to use, because they are inherently right, no matter how they came to believe that.

Been trying to stay away from the Rooney debates because I pretty much know what every poster who engages in it will say at this stage. That being said, anybody making Rooney a scapegoat for Saturday didn't watch the game I was watching. Whilst he was nothing special, he gave a 7/10 performance compared to the horrendous displays from the likes of Lingard, Mkhitaryan, and our defence as a whole. I still feel we should be looking to phase out Rooney as a nailed on starter in the next couple of transfer windows, but he was not the problem in the Derby.

Nalz

Polo_Mint wrote: »

PL 2015-2016 - Man U v Man C - 0 -0
PL 2016-2017 - Man U v Man C - 1 -2

The contrast in performances of KDB in those two games are staggering.

He was awful in the 0-0 draw last year. Like really really bad.

adox

De Bruyne seems a very stange choice of player to compare Rooney to, to make your point that Rooney is crap.

"Hes not as good as one of the best players in the world in his position.." doesnt seem a logical argument to prove that you think Rooney is crap.

Not aimed at anyone in particular(well everyone that is bringing up De Bruyne to show how poor Rooney is).

Korat

bangkok wrote: »

Korat wrote: »

So which of Rooney's performances would you consider it fair to compare with?

When he had a great game against Barnsley 5 years ago?

compare it to de bruynes previous game v sunderland where he was extremely poor or did you not see that game??

Err... if De Bruyne is ****e then isn't it even worse that he was so much better than Rooney on Saturday?

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

It's wildly different because we are trying to find a way to get across to the defenders. Because I'd imagine it's just so blatantly obvious to us.

No, the arguments keep changing because they don't hold up to any scrutiny.

TheDoc wrote: »

It's not just one game, I could pick many a 10 from around Europe as an example, to which a team of our size should expect, compared to what we are getting.

Go for it.

TheDoc wrote: »

And De Bruyne has been brilliant since he arrived at City, along with his previous season with Wolfsburg. This isn't a flash in the pan player, this is a top player. A player we should have been in for in all honesty.

I agree that De Bryune is an excellent player. But don't even pretend that you have been watching him (at City or at Wolfsburg). You and I know well that you haven't.

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd also say that in my mind, none of the reasoning I have for been critical of Rooney have been "proved wrong". Not even close.

I also think your getting a bit big for your boots belittling the detractors. Climate change is an obvious, scientifically proven thing. There is simply no room for opinion or beliefs, as it's facts, it's science and that is the end of it.

It's clear with Rooney there is two camps, and neither are really budging. I know after the derby, watching it granted after it had taken place, I was going apoplectic about Rooney in the first 30 minutes at how he was playing, never mind Lingard.

It's like arguing with climate deniers because each of their claims are so poorly supported and then quickly abandoned.

Here are some of these claims:
- Not enough touches in the box
- Not enough shots
- Inaccurate passing
- Dispossed too frequently
- Not enough forward passing
- Not enough goals
- Not enough assists
- Not enough chances created

And when any of these things proves to be false, then they just move on to something else.

mewe

Pro. F wrote:

It's like arguing with climate change deniers.

Hey tis in the hishtory books. Sure hadn't we Noah's Ark before. Tis God's will, this so called climate change!

Leroy42

adox wrote: »

De Bruyne seems a very stange choice of player to compare Rooney to, to make your point that Rooney is crap.

"Hes not as good as one of the best players in the world in his position.." doesnt seem a logical argument to prove that you think Rooney is crap.

Not aimed at anyone in particular(well everyone that is bringing up De Bruyne to show how poor Rooney is).

I never said Rooney is crap, that is you taking it to an extreme and then arguing that the extreme is crazy.

It not's about the game on Saturday, the result cannot be laid at Rooney's door. But it is about asking what type of team we think MU are? Are we happy with just about enough, might do something right from time to time, or are we looking for World Class.

You can get away with all right in certain positions, Blind, Fellaini etc are good enough to do a job. Every team has a few of them. But your No 10/playmaker/striker? That is no position in which to have a weak link.

And I am not using Saturdays performance by KdB as any judgement on him, but moreso to lay out the clear discrepancy between a player on form and someone such as Rooney. You can blame MU all you like, but in all honesty when was the last game that Rooney made as big an impact as KdB did on Saturday?

I don't care if kdB replicates it every week (I hope he doesn't) but that is the sort of performance we should be demanding from our players. We get a good pass here and there, a few goals every so often and then we end up arguing whether Rooney's passing stats are good enough. This from a WC (at least in terms of wages and standing in the game) player is all we get. As long as that is the level that MU supporters are prepared to accept than forget CL titles for the foreseeable future.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

De Bruyne seems a very stange choice of player to compare Rooney to, to make your point that Rooney is crap.

"Hes not as good as one of the best players in the world in his position.." doesnt seem a logical argument to prove that you think Rooney is crap.

Not aimed at anyone in particular(well everyone that is bringing up De Bruyne to show how poor Rooney is).

So we shouldn't expect top quality in our team?

I don't think it's that far left field to outline some comparisons for other teams to see what they are getting from similar positions. Saturday was just quick to retort because to me it felt a blatant contrast with how Silva and De Bruyne were operating in those areas, compared to Rooney.

Like am I supposed to accept below par, just because it's Wayne Rooney we are talking about?

Flint Fredstone

Rooney just isn't creative enough for a number 10. You just have to look around at the other teams that will be in and around the top 4 positions and they all have technically superior players in that role, including ourselves.

I just don't associate Rooney with close control, short and quick passing or through balls on the deck, in behind the defence. Both his assists have come from the byline where you would expect the winger to be. He should play up top or not at all.

Pro. F

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Tbf, De Bruyne was better than Rooney last year. Whatever about people forming that opinion because of Saturday, you'd be hard pressed to find somebody who would honestly, with no bias, prefer Rooney over De Bruyne. It's a bad example for you to use, because they are inherently right, no matter how they came to believe that.

Yes he was. Last year. We had LVG last year. The whole attack suffered. Things have been better for us this year and it's still early days. I say lets give our players a proper chance under the new manager before wishing we had their City counterparts instead. And that opinion goes the same for all our players. And honestly, all of our midfielders and forwards are in the same boat.

Flint Fredstone

He wouldn't get a game as a number 10 for City, Chelsea, Arsenal or Spurs.

sReq | uTeK

I'm far from Rooneys biggest fan and believe we have better options elsewhere but, anyone posting pass accuracy as a stick to beat him with needs to cop on. He's a bloody 10, he should be trying passes that are above and beyond simple, he should have a far lower average pass completion rate than those around him. If he didn't THEN id be asking questions.

Flint Fredstone

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

I'm far from Rooneys biggest fan and believe we have better options elsewhere but, anyone posting pass accuracy as a stick to beat him with needs to cop on. He's a bloody 10, he should be trying passes that are above and beyond simple, he should have a far lower average pass completion rate than those around him. If he didn't THEN id be asking questions.

Like the previous 3 games where he had a really high pass completion rate?

bucketybuck

adox wrote: »

De Bruyne seems a very stange choice of player to compare Rooney to, to make your point that Rooney is crap.

"Hes not as good as one of the best players in the world in his position.." doesnt seem a logical argument to prove that you think Rooney is crap.

But its not about Rooney being "crap", its about many people wanting us to have one of the best players in the world in that position.

Hardly an outrageous desire for a club of our status and what De Bruyne's performance did was remind us what that even looks like, in a way that we haven't seen from Rooney in a long long time.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

No, the arguments keep changing because they don't hold up to any scrutiny.

If by scrutiny you mean the stats that are providing, then maybe that is debunking some other posters points, but I don't feel anyone has come close to making me change my opinion in the slightest.

Go for it.

Some of these may not start on a teamsheet as a ten, but in attacking passages will operate as a 10.

This isn't even including some of the players who operate in 4-3-3's so technically arn't 10's, so the likes of Messi, Neymar, Muller, Robben, Gotze, Isco who can all play at 10 arn't even below.

Christian Eriksson
Luka Modric
Hamsik
Ozil
Pjanic
Silva
De Bruyne
Iniesta
Payet
Fabregas (when he plays, and plays at 10)

I agree that De Bryune is an excellent player. But don't even pretend that you have been watching him (at City or at Wolfsburg). You and I know well that you haven't.

I don't need to have watched him week in week out to know the level he has been at since Wolfsburg. It was pretty hard to not notice.

And I'd happily like to know your insights into my football viewing....

It's like arguing with climate deniers because each of their claims are so poorly supported and then quickly abandoned.

Here are some of these claims:
- Not enough touches in the box
- Not enough shots
- Inaccurate passing
- Dispossed too frequently
- Not enough forward passing
- Not enough goals
- Not enough assists
- Not enough chances created

And when any of these things proves to be false, then they just move on to something else.

Maybe that the problem with my peers. They are going into the nitty gritty details that can be easily debunked, or perceived to be debunked.

Where as you just use your eyes, strength in your believes and judgement, and you just know regardless of any stat or figure, Rooney has been below par, and what started as a worrying dip last year has turned into a total regression.

Stats would indicate Manchester City won more points when they played Mangala then without, but I don't need to go through statistic burning to know he was ****ing rubbish.

adox

TheDoc wrote: »

So we shouldn't expect top quality in our team?

I don't think it's that far left field to outline some comparisons for other teams to see what they are getting from similar positions. Saturday was just quick to retort because to me it felt a blatant contrast with how Silva and De Bruyne were operating in those areas, compared to Rooney.

Like am I supposed to accept below par, just because it's Wayne Rooney we are talking about?

But thats not the argument. People have been calling for Rooney to be dropped because they dont think he is good enough any more but then used De Bruyne as an example of why he isnt good enough, which seemed weird to me.

adox

Leroy42 wrote: »

I never said Rooney is crap, that is you taking it to an extreme and then arguing that the extreme is crazy.

It not's about the game on Saturday, the result cannot be laid at Rooney's door. But it is about asking what type of team we think MU are? Are we happy with just about enough, might do something right from time to time, or are we looking for World Class.

You can get away with all right in certain positions, Blind, Fellaini etc are good enough to do a job. Every team has a few of them. But your No 10/playmaker/striker? That is no position in which to have a weak link.

And I am not using Saturdays performance by KdB as any judgement on him, but moreso to lay out the clear discrepancy between a player on form and someone such as Rooney. You can blame MU all you like, but in all honesty when was the last game that Rooney made as big an impact as KdB did on Saturday?

I don't care if kdB replicates it every week (I hope he doesn't) but that is the sort of performance we should be demanding from our players. We get a good pass here and there, a few goals every so often and then we end up arguing whether Rooney's passing stats are good enough. This from a WC (at least in terms of wages and standing in the game) player is all we get. As long as that is the level that MU supporters are prepared to accept than forget CL titles for the foreseeable future.

Ok we are getting in to semantics. I used the word crap. Insert whatever youre argument is instead: not good enough any more, shouldnt be starting any more, is past it etc.

Ive replied to Doc about the point I was trying to make with regard to mentioning De Bruyne.

sReq | uTeK

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Like the previous 3 games where he had a really high pass completion rate?

Like i said, I'm far from his biggest fan and believe he should be dropped. He shouldn't have a high pass rate, so yea, drop him

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes he was. Last year. We had LVG last year. The whole attack suffered. Things have been better for us this year and it's still early days. I say lets give our players a proper chance under the new manager before wishing we had their City counterparts instead. And that opinion goes the same for all our players. And honestly, all of our midfielders and forwards are in the same boat.

That is perfectly reasonable and a fair thing to state. Obviously it's football discussion, logic and patience is going to wear thing at different rates for different people.

I'm perfectly aligned with your post there, bar Rooney. I thought he was muck last year, muck in the summer, ropey in pre-season, and I'm not seeing any indication he can recapture form, and justifiably keep other players out of the team much longer.

I've just come to my conclusion, quicker then you have. It might be with less evidence or logic from your or others point of views, but its coming from my belief and confidence in that assessment, as all opinions are.

This is likely going to be a big talking point for the thread this season, even going by other United forums, its a clearly divisive issue everywhere. But that point alone should indicate how clearly there is an issue there. Maybe it's in the middle and not on the extremes, but I think it's something that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Rooney just isn't creative enough for a number 10. You just have to look around at the other teams that will be in and around the top 4 positions and they all have technically superior players in that role, including ourselves.

I just don't associate Rooney with close control, short and quick passing or through balls on the deck, in behind the defence. Both his assists have come from the byline where you would expect the winger to be. He should play up top or not at all.

There is nothing wrong or weird about a number 10 (of even the highest quality) setting up goals from wide. Watch KDB, Ozil, Griezmann, or whoever. You will see 10s trying to create from wide all the time. Your idea that creativity at 10 is all about through balls and staying central is just completely wrong.

Rooney also has the positive of being a good goal scorer and a hard worker. Both qualities that become important when our CF likes to drop deep and create and doesn't run very much.

deaddonkey15

Pro. F wrote: »

It's like arguing with climate deniers because each of their claims are so poorly supported and then quickly abandoned.

Here are some of these claims:
- Not enough touches in the box
- Not enough shots
- Inaccurate passing
- Dispossed too frequently
- Not enough forward passing
- Not enough goals
- Not enough assists
- Not enough chances created

And when any of these things proves to be false, then they just move on to something else.

Don't forget slowing down the attack, and failing to show leadership and inspiration to his fellow highly paid, international, and highly decorated and experienced teammates.

Anyway,

De Bruyne this season: 1 goal 2 assists in 5 appearances for City
Rooney this season: 1 goal 2 assists in 5 appearances for United

adox

bucketybuck wrote: »

But its not about Rooney being "crap", its about many people wanting us to have one of the best players in the world in that position.

Hardly an outrageous desire for a club of our status and what De Bruyne's performance did was remind us what that even looks like, in a way that we haven't seen from Rooney in a long long time.

Again you are missing the point or maybe I didnt make my point clear.
Surely it would be better to compare Rooney to a competent no10 as a pointer to why he isnt good enough for the team rather than bringing up one of the best in that position at the moment?