Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

sReq | uTeK

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Don't forget slowing down the attack, and failing to show leadership and inspiration to his fellow highly paid, international, and highly decorated and experienced teammates.

Anyway,

De Bruyne this season: 1 goal 2 assists in 5 appearances for City
Rooney this season: 1 goal 2 assists in 5 appearances for United

Who would you have in your team

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

But thats not the argument. People have been calling for Rooney to be dropped because they dont think he is good enough any more but then used De Bruyne as an example of why he isnt good enough, which seemed weird to me.

Why is that weird though?

It's an example of what a fully functioning and firing player, comfortable and able to operate in that area of the pitch, can do.

I don't see why it's such a confusing thing.

If I'm not mistaken you have reservations/issues with Blind at CB. Do you now see other teams CB's and go "jesus if only he was in our defence".

I'm now confused why this is confusing...this is a big part of football fandom, the things happening much better in other teams, that you wish you had

adox

TheDoc wrote: »

Why is that weird though?

It's an example of what a fully functioning and firing player, comfortable and able to operate in that area of the pitch, can do.

I don't see why it's such a confusing thing.

If I'm not mistaken you have reservations/issues with Blind at CB. Do you now see other teams CB's and go "jesus if only he was in our defence".

I'm now confused why this is confusing...this is a big part of football fandom, the things happening much better in other teams, that you wish you had

Yeah you are right about me with Blind and I do think that. But I dont mention one of the best CBs in the world`s performance as a reason why I dont think Blind is good enough for that position.

So my(long winded at this stage) point is, if you think a player isnt good enough for a starting place in the team it seems very odd to me to pick a player who is one of the best in the world in that position as part of your argument for why you think that player isnt good enough.

bucketybuck

adox wrote: »

Again you are missing the point or maybe I didnt make my point clear.
Surely it would be better to compare Rooney to a competent no10 as a pointer to why he isnt good enough for the team rather than bringing up one of the best in that position at the moment?

Rooney is a competent number 10, I think thats where you have mischaracterised the argument. Few people truly believe Rooney is crap, he isn't crap, he does a job and is certainly competent.

But we can do better, a lot better.

deaddonkey15

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Who would you have in your team

De Bruyne. He's a better player. That doesn't mean that Rooney is poor and not good enough though. I'd have de Bruyne at 10 ahead of Mkhitaryan and Mata too. There's a few other City players I'd have in the current United team to be honest.

adox

bucketybuck wrote: »

Rooney is a competent number 10, I think thats where you have mischaracterised the argument. Few people truly believe Rooney is crap, he isn't crap, he does a job and is certainly competent.

But we can do better, a lot better.

Look I just typed the word crap without thinking. Ive explained to Leroy and again I think we are getting into semantics with words like competent. Replace it with very good if you want.

Hopefully I`ve explained myself with my last post to Doc.

Rayne Wooney

Rooney had 1 shot from 40 yards and spent more time in and just outside our half than he did in attacking positions. He had 7 touches all game within 30 yards of City's goal

Its a shocking waste of his talents, he's one of the most dangerous players in the league in and around the box but he seems to think he can do some kind of Pirlo job for us now.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Again you are missing the point or maybe I didnt make my point clear.
Surely it would be better to compare Rooney to a competent no10 as a pointer to why he isnt good enough for the team rather than bringing up one of the best in that position at the moment?

OK I get what you mean now.

As in comparing Lingard to Ronaldo, or Mata to Messi.

I gave a list there to responding to Pro.F that should contain players that arn't edge cases in being best in the world on form.

On the flipside though, many would have you believe Rooney is world class, or was at some point. Many will push he is still this massive force and quality player. And he is still like the 5-6th highest paid player in the world.

so where exactly am I supposed to put my expectations of Rooney in the grand scheme of things?

Flint Fredstone

TheDoc wrote: »

so where exactly am I supposed to put my expectations of Rooney in the grand scheme of things?

Low, very low apparently.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Some of these may not start on a teamsheet as a ten, but in attacking passages will operate as a 10.

This isn't even including some of the players who operate in 4-3-3's so technically arn't 10's, so the likes of Messi, Neymar, Muller, Robben, Gotze, Isco who can all play at 10 arn't even below.

Christian Eriksson
Luka Modric
Hamsik
Ozil
Pjanic
Silva
De Bruyne
Iniesta
Payet
Fabregas (when he plays, and plays at 10)

Rooney, so far under Jose, is creating chances, getting shots and scoring goals at a rate at least as good as any of those would in this team.

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't need to have watched him week in week out to know the level he has been at since Wolfsburg. It was pretty hard to not notice.

And I'd happily like to know your insights into my football viewing....

Any time I have checked about your claims of having watched players they have turned out to be false. I don't believe you have watched De Bruyne more than a handful of times.

TheDoc wrote: »

Maybe that the problem with my peers. They are going into the nitty gritty details that can be easily debunked, or perceived to be debunked.

Where as you just use your eyes, strength in your believes and judgement, and you just know regardless of any stat or figure, Rooney has been below par, and what started as a worrying dip last year has turned into a total regression.

Stats would indicate Manchester City won more points when they played Mangala then without, but I don't need to go through statistic burning to know he was ****ing rubbish.

Small sample, non-contextualised correlation to victory stats are rubbish yes. That doesn't mean that all stats are useless. Some things are very easy to prove and disprove with stats and that helps us to progress conversations past the basic falsehoods that would be flying around otherwise.

From using my eyes Rooney has been playing well so far this season and has been one of our better players in the front four. The partnership with Ibra, while lacking pace, has been showing signs of being complimentary. His work-rate, passing and off the ball movement has been a vital part of our attack.

Son Of A Vidic

Jaysus, Rooney this and Rooney that. Every time I see it in this thread I just go.....

adox

TheDoc wrote: »

OK I get what you mean now.

As in comparing Lingard to Ronaldo, or Mata to Messi.

Yes.

TheDoc wrote: »

so where exactly am I supposed to put my expectations of Rooney in the grand scheme of things?

Put your expectations wherever you want, as high or as low as you feel. My point is that people who are arguing for him to be dropped obviosuly dont think he is good enough but then are bringing in De Bruyne as a comparison, which as Ive said seemed odd to me.

We could make that argument for the whole team with the exception of De Gea.

Those that want Rooney dropped do so because they dont think he is good enough and think we have better options. It is werid to me that they would then bring into the argument one of the best no 10s in the game at the moment as part of their argument why they think Rooney isnt good enough - was my one and only point with that original post.

TheDoc

adox wrote: »

Yeah you are right about me with Blind and I do think that. But I dont mention one of the best CBs in the world`s performance as a reason why I dont think Blind is good enough for that position.

So my(long winded at this stage) point is, if you think a player isnt good enough for a starting place in the team it seems very odd to me to pick a player who is one of the best in the world in that position as part of your argument for why you think that player isnt good enough.

Yeah that's fair enough. I guess when I was watching it, it was more wishing Rooney could do that.

But there is plenty of other examples that might be more relative, that I'd feel could do a better job, never mind players in our own team.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney, so far under Jose, is creating chances, getting shots and scoring goals at a rate at least as good as any of those would in this team.

And that's fine and fair enough. Issues with Rooney, for me anyway, are his general play. That if he was sharper and just better we could be creating more, scoring more, doing more.

I'll be surprised with a) Rooney staying at 10 for the entire season and b)him being regarded as one of the best 10's in the league. I'll be happily wrong, but really can't see any outcome bar one for Rooney this season.

Any time I have checked about your claims of having watched players they have turned out to be false. I don't believe you have watched De Bruyne more than a handful of times.

Happy to go into this in more detail, don't appreciate being called a liar.

The_Kew_Tour

Sorry in advance as I know it's been asked before so I'm kinda half ducking when asking question

What's good sites to check for player stats on matches? And over season?

I use a few but sometimes few seem be bit different numbers.

So again sorry in advance if it's come up

RasTa

Just watched the MOTD highlights for the first time as was working the weekend so missed it all.

Jesus Bravo was bad, don't think Pogba was mentioned once during the highlights but it wasn't as bad as expecting. Surprised Zlatan missed that chance at the end of the first half.

Zlatan got in the way of what would have been another boy wonder goal for Rashford
My heart sank when it was ruled offside (correctly so)
Been hard to post in here the last couple of days. Still gutted!

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

And that's fine and fair enough. Issues with Rooney, for me anyway, are his general play. That if he was sharper and just better we could be creating more, scoring more, doing more.

I'll be surprised with a) Rooney staying at 10 for the entire season and b)him being regarded as one of the best 10's in the league. I'll be happily wrong, but really can't see any outcome bar one for Rooney this season.

No matter what happens he won't be widely regarded as one of the best 10s in the league. Most people don't give him any credit for any good he does, so he could have a great season and they would still just talk about his age or what trophy United failed to win or some other thing that is irrelevant to how well, or not, he played.

TheDoc wrote: »

Happy to go into this in more detail, don't appreciate being called a liar.

We could start with Memphis. I would rather not bother, because it requires work that is boring.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

We could start with Memphis. I would rather not bother, because it requires work that is boring.

Then maybe you could kindly **** off with the slander if your not going to bother your hole.

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

Rooney is a competent number 10, I think thats where you have mischaracterised the argument. Few people truly believe Rooney is crap, he isn't crap, he does a job and is certainly competent.

But we can do better, a lot better.

Can we? The only other real options at 10 in the squad are Mata and Mkhitaryan. Mata is by no means "a lot better" than Rooney, he has plenty of faults of his own. Mkhitaryan's performance on Sunday was probably worse than any Rooney display I've seen.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Rooney had 1 shot from 40 yards and spent more time in and just outside our half than he did in attacking positions. He had 7 touches all game within 30 yards of City's goal

Its a shocking waste of his talents, he's one of the most dangerous players in the league in and around the box but he seems to think he can do some kind of Pirlo job for us now.

Simply not true. United couldn't get the ball in the first half and City spent most of it camped in United's half of the field, Rooney will naturally be deeper as will the whole team. His inputs in "attacking positions" at the end of the first half should have resulted in at least 1 goal. He spent most of the second half on the right wing and was in plenty of attacking positions, not least of which the Bravo incident which should have been a penalty.

deaddonkey15

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Can we? The only other real options at 10 in the squad are Mata and Mkhitaryan. Mata is by no means "a lot better" than Rooney, he has plenty of faults of his own. Mkhitaryan's performance on Sunday was probably worse than any Rooney display I've seen.



Simply not true. United couldn't get the ball in the first half and City spent most of it camped in United's half of the field, Rooney will naturally be deeper as will the whole team. His inputs in "attacking positions" at the end of the first half should have resulted in at least 1 goal. He spent most of the second half on the right wing and was in plenty of attacking positions, not least of which the Bravo incident which should have been a penalty.

Pogba #10

deaddonkey15

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Pogba #10

I see him as more box to box, but hopefully if he does play 10 he'll make more of an effort to get involved and not hide like he did on Saturday.

Julez

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Zlatan got in the way of what would have been another boy wonder goal for Rashford
My heart sank when it was ruled offside (correctly so)
Been hard to post in here the last couple of days. Still gutted!

To be fair, I think it was heading straight at the goalkeeper before Zlatan deflected it.

PhlegmyMoses

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I see him as more box to box, but hopefully if he does play 10 he'll make more of an effort to get involved and not hide like he did on Saturday.

He didnt hide ffs.

Your Airbag

I used to be a big defender of Rooney until very recently, I would often scoff at those wanting rid of him saying he is still our best player.

My opinion has evolved on that, his decline is obvious there for all to see but he still has enough talent to warrant a first team place but I'm not sure as a regular starter. Having Moyes and LVG as his coach combined with Rooneys age may have aided his decline so I'm prepared to cut him some slack for a while longer. It would be interesting to see him left out for a few games and Rashford get regular time and see how the team progresses and what setup Jose goes for without Rooney.

That said, Rooney was good on Saturday and if you look at his stats so far this season after four games he has 86% passing accuracy and has created 10 chances. He created two chances on Saturday. His avg pass length is 20m which is impressive with that accuracy. ON the surface that's good from Rooney.

Then there are areas like his first touch that are not measured which can be shocking at times, sometimes he gifts the ball away from what are or should be simple passes. Its almost getting to the Nani situation where he can frustrate and frustrate but has enough quality to change a game.

Both sides have justifications in this debate.

Ignoring any sort of decline is wrong though, its been there to see in many games and some of it has been glaringly poor from Rooney.

deaddonkey15

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He didnt hide ffs.

What did he do then?

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Then maybe you could kindly **** off with the slander if your not going to bother your hole.

You know what, I'm not going to pursue this. I've shown it at the time and you have admitted it, but there's nothing to be gained by posting that again now.

PhlegmyMoses

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

What did he do then?

Before I explain why he didn't hide, how about you explain how he hid. It's a particularly lazy statement that gets trotted out but is never actually true.

deaddonkey15

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Before I explain why he didn't hide, how about you explain how he hid. It's a particularly lazy statement that gets trotted out but is never actually true.

Rarely tried to influence the game or get involved, I don't recall seeing much of him in City's box, had pretty much no control of the game whatsoever, couldn't keep de Bruyne quiet, outplayed by Fernandinho, pretty much anonymous for most of the game. The only positives I really recall from him were: his shot that almost dropped into the top left corner, an impressive dribble from deep that eventually came to nothing, and walking through Sterling with the ball, all early on in the first half.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney, so far under Jose, is creating chances, getting shots and scoring goals at a rate at least as good as any of those would in this team.

Pro. F wrote: »

Small sample,

.

Charizard

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Zlatan got in the way of what would have been another boy wonder goal for Rashford
My heart sank when it was ruled offside (correctly so)
Been hard to post in here the last couple of days. Still gutted!

Didnt Zlatan deflect it though, dont think it would have been a goal if that was the case

Flint Fredstone

Pogba wasn't nearly as bad as people are making out. City seemed to be under instruction to bring him down if he tried to run at them. He was involved in a lot of the good on show from United.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM_ir5V7IG4

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

.

Four games isn't too small a sample to be useful for the behaviour being discussed.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Four games isn't too small a sample to be useful for the behaviour being discussed.

Its way to small to be considered any way accurate especially when talking about goal and assists

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney, so far under Jose, is creating chances, getting shots and scoring goals at a rate at least as good as any of those would in this team.

Not true, so far he has a goal. He has yet to hit the plurals.

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

He didnt hide ffs.

Thank Christ someone has said this
Pogba had a decent game IMO
Would be interesting to see his stats

Pro. F

Deleted User wrote: »

Its way to small to be considered any way accurate especially when talking about goal and assists

But I'm not just talking about them. I'm looking at the underlying numbers like passes, chances created, shots and shot locations. It's too small to be conclusive, but enough to be a useful indication. And I am not judging Rooney, and those other players, purely on numbers. For example, I know well from watching them play that Rooney's off the ball movement is better for getting on the end of chances in the box than the majority of the other players Doc listed.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Not true, so far he has a goal. He has yet to hit the plurals.

Funny.

Charizard

Really dont know why United didnt just release Bastian from his contract, they have wrote of his contract already, makes no sense not doing it before September

sReq | uTeK

I thought Pogba was good, but I do feel he's been asked to do too much of a defensive role, I really would love to see him between the 10 and the middle and have rashford/martial/micky either side and Rooney up front with Ibra.

to me we just look a little unbalanced.

deaddonkey15

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Pogba wasn't nearly as bad as people are making out. City seemed to be under instruction to bring him down if he tried to run at them. He was involved in a lot of the good on show from United.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM_ir5V7IG4

When this is said in defence of Rooney, it's not good enough.

Ozil lost the ball 18 times against Southampton at the weekend. #perspective

bangkok

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/article/2/10575382/manchester-united-write-off-163-67m-on-bastian-schweinsteiger

Flint Fredstone

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

When this is said in defence of Rooney, it's not good enough.

Ozil lost the ball 18 times against Southampton at the weekend. #perspective

I'm not talking about Rooney. Would you stop crying about him and dragging him into every other player discussion.

Oh and Rooney shouldn't be talked about in the same breath as Özil in that position.

Pro. F

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

Oh and Rooney shouldn't be talked about in the same breath as Özil in that position.

Yes he should, because number 10 isn't just about creative passing.

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes he should, because number 10 isn't just about creative passing.

Even I think you're clutching now

Pro. F

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Even I think you're clutching now

Some people have decided that number 10 is all about creative passing and through balls. But it simply isn't. Goal scoring is hugely important too. In Mourinho's teams workrate and movement are also very important.

Ozil reperesnts - maybe to an extreme - one type of 10. But that isn't the only type of 10 that can be good.

Rossi IRL

Jaysus this Rooney talk is anoying.

Can we not just all agree that he is past it and for the team to be successful long term he needs to be dropped.

If only it was that simple.....

Charizard

Charizard wrote: »

Didnt Zlatan deflect it though, dont think it would have been a goal if that was the case

You are probably correct, but for a moment I thought the young lad had done it again!

bangkok

against watford i would love to see this team

---

de gea

---

Valencia

---

Bailly----Smalling

---

Shaw

---

Carrick or Schneiderlain

---

Mkhitarayan----Herrera

---

Pogba

---

Martial

---

Ibrahimovic

---

RasTa

Well Rooney won't be starting on Thursday so there is that.