Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

J. Marston

[QUOTE=zerks;101084616https://twitter.com/FCAfkicken/status/777547035746578432[/QUOTE]

Ignoring all the shít passing, the clip on 52 seconds shows just how old and lackadaisical he is.

Giggsy11

Rooney is not the only player who is playing poorly but dropping him will be the biggest step in right direction. He is playing as a 10 and we are playing midfield 2, because of this the midfield is unbalanced and whole game we look like a broken pieces.

Dropping Rooney and bringing a proper midfielder brings balance to the midfield. Player like Carrick who can pass and control the tempo, Herrera who plays box to box and Pogba who can create and score goals, also make attacking runs when Zlatan drops deep.

One of the biggest problem in our team is whole team is static which means the options for the player in possession is very limited and it's easy to defend. No matter whether the ball is played or not, players should be making runs to drag defenders out of place which is not happening, our players are ball watching and a step late for every second ball.

Also lack of off the ball movement from wingers is a big concern, tbh the movement is atrocious. Whoever is the player they expect the ball to be played to their feet when they should be making runs into the box.

3 managers since Fergie and our general play has not improved.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

We're using Pogba as a holding midfielder ffs.

I wouldn't agree with that at all. Pogba has played box-to-box in every game, including today.

IamtheWalrus

I don't like Jose singling out players. Fergie didn't.

limnam

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I don't like Jose singling out players. Fergie didn't.

Nonsense.

On Nani losing the ball

Ferguson said: 'We gave the ball away for the third goal having been in complete control of the match at that point.

'All we needed to do was see the game out with good possession.

'Nani is experienced but he's a player who wants to beat men and I often discourage him from that.

'In that situation, if we'd kept the ball at the corner flag, the game's over.

SlickRic

José is making it more difficult than it should be with the Rooney nonsense.

Drop him. Bring in Schneiderlin or Herrera. Free Pogba up from the nonsense of him being in a midfield 2. See what he can do in a system and position that resembles that which helped turn him into an £89m player.

It's honestly like Mourinho, like Deschamps in the summer, has never seen the lad play. He's never been particularly disciplined. But he's physically gifted, can get incredible shots off, and can beat a man. He's not a DM. He's not able to control game. So stop asking him to.

Just give him midfield protection and let him go.

tinpib

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I don't like Jose singling out players. Fergie didn't.

Did he do that today? I missed it if he did.

IamtheWalrus

tinpib wrote: »

Did he do that today? I missed it if he did.

I was referring to the previous game, don't know about today.

IamtheWalrus

limnam wrote: »

Nonsense.

On Nani losing the ball

Ferguson said: 'We gave the ball away for the third goal having been in complete control of the match at that point.

'All we needed to do was see the game out with good possession.

'Nani is experienced but he's a player who wants to beat men and I often discourage him from that.

'In that situation, if we'd kept the ball at the corner flag, the game's over.

Poor form from Fergie but this most be the exception, rather than the rule? Fergie was the type to take the heat off players in public and lambast them in private.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that at all. Pogba has played box-to-box in every game, including today.

If someone could post up pogba's touch map from the second half from squawka I think you'll find he sat in a zone about 15 yards either side of the halfway line.

DARK-KNIGHT

I more than anyone would love to see rooney change and rip up the league. It is never gonna happen Wayne is now a passenger and is so far from the standard we need it's just crazy now. If Jose doesn't drop him he needs to grow a pair imo

54and56

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I don't like Jose singling out players. Fergie didn't.

Jose is the polar opposite of Fergie.

- Fergie was a leader, Jose throws his players and staff under the bus to save himself.

- Fergie thought Pogba had too high an opinion of his own abilities, Jose paid £89m to bring Pogba back.

- Fergie took responsibility for results, Jose blames the refs for poor results.

- Fergie built genuine team spirit, Jose is divisive and isolates players who are out of favour.

chupacabra

Tactically nothing has changed since van Gaal.

Trigger

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Jose is the polar opposite of Fergie.

- Fergie was a leader, Jose throws his players and staff under the bus to save himself.

- Fergie thought Pogba had to high an opinion of his own abilities, Jose paid £89m to being Pogba back.

- Fergie took responsibility for results, Jose blames the refs for poor results.

- Fergie built genuine team spirit, Jose is divisive and isolates players who are out of favour.

You really have some chip on your shoulder there..

You have become very concerned about United under Jose, you would never think that you were a Liverpool fan

Pro. F

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

- Fergie took responsibility for results, Jose blames the refs for poor results.

Fergie was the best, no doubt, but come on now. Fergie blamed refs when results went against him with the best of them.

limnam

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Jose is the polar opposite of Fergie.

- Fergie was a leader, Jose throws his players and staff under the bus to save himself.

- Fergie thought Pogba had to high an opinion of his own abilities, Jose paid £89m to being Pogba back.

- Fergie took responsibility for results, Jose blames the refs for poor results.

- Fergie built genuine team spirit, Jose is divisive and isolates players who are out of favour.

Is this thread a wind up.

Ferguson on atkinson after been beaten by chelsea

"You hope you get a really strong referee in games like this," he said. "It was a major game for both clubs and you want a fair referee, you know ... You want a strong referee, anyway, and we didn't get that."

"Exactly, exactly. I don't know why he's got the game. I must say that, when I saw who was refereeing it, I feared the worst."

Jose has "led" every team he's managed to silverware. You can't do this without team spirit.

Ferguson/United couldn't keep pogba and let one of the best players in the world in his position leave for nothing.

Stop reading twitter and listening to talk sport or at least stop been so bloody gullible

Trigger

limnam wrote: »

Is this thread a wind up.

Ferguson on atkinson after been beaten by chelsea

"You hope you get a really strong referee in games like this," he said. "It was a major game for both clubs and you want a fair referee, you know ... You want a strong referee, anyway, and we didn't get that."

"Exactly, exactly. I don't know why he's got the game. I must say that, when I saw who was refereeing it, I feared the worst."

Jose has "led" every team he's managed to silverware. You can't do this without team spirit.

Ferguson/United couldn't keep pogba and let one of the best players in the world in his position leave for nothing.

Stop reading twitter and listening to talk sport or at least stop been so bloody gullible

He is a Liverpool fan suddenly concerned about United ever since they appointed Jose, so it most certainly is a wind up.

adox

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Jose is the polar opposite of Fergie.

- Fergie was a leader, Jose throws his players and staff under the bus to save himself.

- Fergie thought Pogba had to high an opinion of his own abilities, Jose paid £89m to being Pogba back.

- Fergie took responsibility for results, Jose blames the refs for poor results.

- Fergie built genuine team spirit, Jose is divisive and isolates players who are out of favour.

Ah you can't be serious? The two are a lot more alike than you think.

It's all a bit pantomime painting Jose as this evil villain and Fergie as this saintly figure. They are both ruthless people in a ruthless business.

Jose didn't win the trophies he did without creating team spirit. Most of his ex players only speak highly of him.

Fergie was infamous for blaming the refs for results but the narrative spun on that was he was deflecting blame away from his players. Jose does it and he's wrong.

I'm as frustrated as anyone about the way things are going. This last week has been awful and the problems are huge but there's no need to lose the run of ourselves here.

Edit: ah ok Liverpool fan. You can ignore my last paragraph and I'll now ignore your post.

Trigger

Seems most of the British media are criticising Rooney on the back pages tomorrow, could be the beginning of the end for him.

54and56

astradave wrote: »

You really have some chip on your shoulder there..

You have become very concerned about United under Jose, you would never think that you were a Liverpool fan

Is this a discussion thread or a fan boy only thread?

I enjoy discussing football, full stop.

By all means disagree with or criticise the points I make, they are genuinely held.

Criticizing a poster because he supports another team is just silly.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

If someone could post up pogba's touch map from the second half from squawka I think you'll find he sat in a zone about 15 yards either side of the halfway line.

Here it is:



That doesn't look like a holding midfielder to me (it could be if we had had the opposition pinned back defending their own goal the whole time, but that wasn't the case). You have to also consider that that only shows his touches and tackles and so on, it doesn't show any runs he made when the ball didn't go to him.

Backstreet Moyes

Valencia winger at rb
Rasford striker at lw
Martial striker at rw
Rooney striker at cm
Pogba a box to box beast sitting on Smalling's lap

Why are the problems so obvious to everyone except any United manager.

54and56

astradave wrote: »

He is a Liverpool fan suddenly concerned about United ever since they appointed Jose, so it most certainly is a wind up.

Not "concerned" but I do hold the view that Jose is a panic appointment by United who is going to continue the form which got him sacked from Chelsea last season and will result in him getting sacked again before the end of this season.

Given this is the United discussion thread is it not the correct place to discuss this hypothesis particularly in light of recent results and Jose reverting to type already ie blaming everyone but himself?

Backstreet Moyes

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Not "concerned" but I do hold the view that Jose is a panic appointment by United who is going to continue the form which got him sacked from Chelsea last season and will result in him getting sacked again before the end of this season.

Given this is the United discussion thread is it not the correct place to discuss this hypothesis particularly in light of recent results and Jose reverting to type already ie blaming everyone but himself?

After Moyes and LVG appointing one of the most successful managers of all time is a panic.

A manager who won the league two seasons ago.

A Liverpool fan who has probably never witnessed a league victory is warning us about a panic appointment of one of the best managers of all time I dunno really what to say.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

Here it is:



That doesn't look like a holding midfielder to me (it could be if we had had the opposition pinned back defending their own goal the whole time, but that wasn't the case). You have to also consider that that only shows his touches and tackles and so on, it doesn't show any runs he made when the ball didn't go to him.

It's identical to Fellaini's and where I'd expect my two holding players in a 4231 to be considering we had 60% possession. Pogba was playing with a little bit more leeway than Fellaini. The problem is Rooney's is the same as Pogba's and for Pogba to be stuck playing deeper Rooney needs to be a lot further forward influencing the attack, not trying to play a deeper role when it adds nothing to the team. It's all confuzzled to be honest.

A 433 with Ibra Rashford/Mata and Martial with Mkhitaryan, Pogba and Fellaini in the 3 behind is what I'd like to see. KDB and Silva have been doing it for City very well with Fernandinho/Gundogan in behind and it's surely in our best interests to try something new given things don't seem to be getting any better. I'm not saying Rooney is the only problem, but he is the constant in the attack for the last 3 seasons and I think we would be a more cohesive team with his playing time limited.

StringerBell

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Not "concerned" but I do hold the view that Jose is a panic appointment by United who is going to continue the form which got him sacked from Chelsea last season and will result in him getting sacked again before the end of this season.

Given this is the United discussion thread is it not the correct place to discuss this hypothesis particularly in light of recent results and Jose reverting to type already ie blaming everyone but himself?

Jose has always been the same though, so why would it make a difference whether he is blaming others for failings or not? He did it while winning all those trophies too.

I didn't even want the guy hired, but find that kind of stuff an odd stick to beat him with when using it as evidence of anything other then Jose being Jose.

The only game that bothered me was the one today, the lack of fight in the team is something troubling, that is something I would lay at his door, why does he not have them primed at kick off? Why does he not have them well drilled defensively?

It may be a case of it taking time to get over the last couple of years, himself and Van Gaal would certainly have different methods and maybe it is taking time to get things worked out, but it isn't much of an excuse really. It is not good enough right now and that's his job to fix.

Can he do it? Of course he can, he is one of the best managers of all time already, he knows how to win, the team is still gelling also, new additions in key areas of the time take a bit of time, I would bet that when it is a new spine basically it takes a little longer.

There are mitigating circumstances, there is no reason to panic and write everybody off yet or decide the manager is going to be sacked. If things don't improve he will obviously be out on his ear, but I think he has earned the benefit of the doubt. Bad results happen, teams hit slumps, taken in isolation a defeat to City is no big deal really, the second string getting beat in Europe when a lot of them have very little playing time is not a big deal, the manner of the defeat today is the only one that really bothers me.

The man needs time to work it out. Making outlandish statements writing him and the team off are obviously going to be met with derision. The season has only just begun.

Cantona's Collars

astradave wrote: »

Seems most of the British media are criticising Rooney on the back pages tomorrow, could be the beginning of the end for him.

He must have forgotten to bring his journo mates to Wings this month.;)

Flint Fredstone

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Is this a discussion thread or a fan boy only thread?

I enjoy discussing football, full stop.

By all means disagree with or criticise the points I make, they are genuinely held.

Criticizing a poster because he supports another team is just silly.

If it walks like a duck and all that...
Your contributions to this thread don't go unnoticed, so don't be expecting to be taken seriously when the mood takes you.

Discodog

astradave wrote: »

Seems most of the British media are criticising Rooney on the back pages tomorrow, could be the beginning of the end for him.

It was Valencia's turn today.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/1803271/married-man-united-star-antonio-valencia-set-up-secret-hotel-tryst-with-busty-nurse-he-wooed-on-instagram-just-hours-after-team-lost-660m-match/

sReq | uTeK

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Jose is the polar opposite of Fergie.

- Fergie was a leader, Jose throws his players and staff under the bus to save himself.

- Fergie thought Pogba had too high an opinion of his own abilities, Jose paid £89m to bring Pogba back.

- Fergie took responsibility for results, Jose blames the refs for poor results.

- Fergie built genuine team spirit, Jose is divisive and isolates players who are out of favour.

Beckham.
Stam.
Keane.
Heinze
I could go on

How's Benteke doing at palace...

My point you ask. They all ****ing do it. They're not going to play players to appease you or I
They're going to play players that they feel best for their system.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It's identical to Fellaini's and where I'd expect my two holding players in a 4231 to be considering we had 60% possession. Pogba was playing with a little bit more leeway than Fellaini. The problem is Rooney's is the same as Pogba's and for Pogba to be stuck playing deeper Rooney needs to be a lot further forward influencing the attack, not trying to play a deeper role when it adds nothing to the team. It's all confuzzled to be honest.

Fellaini's is not identical to Pogba's. Fellaini had a lot more involvement deeper and more involvement in general, which is what you would expect from the deeper player:


And Pogba's isn't the same as Rooney's either. Rooney had more involvement further up and less involvement in general, which is what you would expect from the more advance player:


We might have had 60% possession, but Watford were not pinned back, so if Pogba was playing as a holding midfielder he wouldn't have had so much activity inside their half of the pitch.

(Note: all the images are still for the second half, as per your original post about Pogba)

MD1990

Pogba's best position has always been as a box to box CM playing in the inside left in a 3 man midfield or a diamond. How Fellaini is starting is bizarre.

Pro. F

MD1990 wrote: »

How Fellaini is starting is bizarre.

He's been one of our best players this season, so not bizarre at all.

sReq | uTeK

Fellaini has been the best midfielder consistently this season. Sadly however he needs to be dropped. As does Rooney. With Fellaini gone you could playing either Carrick/Morgan and Herrera. Significantly more mobile and far better at controlling and dictating games. This frees pogba up to do what he does best. Terrify defenders not nullify teams.

Stick micky/rashford/martial on either side of him and Ibra up top and you have a.far better balanced. Side. Rotate Martial for IBRA if needs be and alternate wingers.

Keep Rooney away from the team he's completely toxic.

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

He's been one of our best players this season, so not bizarre at all.

I agree, but it's bizzare of you want to get the best out of the team. See post above for reasons why.

StringerBell

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

I agree, but it's bizzare of you want to get the best out of the team. See post above for reasons why.

No reason the midfield cannot have Fellaini, Pogba and Herrera/Carrick/Schneiderlin etc in it too

Fellaini performs a different role to the others. One none of them can perform any better then him in fact.

Someone else mentioned that the English media seem to be putting the focus on Rooney with some of tomorrow's articles, here's a link to a list of the articles for anyone interested. I found it on reddit...

Manchester Evening News: Wayne Rooney looks finished.


The Peoples Person: Wayne Rooney produces woeful Man United display against Watford.


The Guardian: Manchester United’s midfield left in a mess by Wayne Rooney’s deeper role.


The Guardian: Wayne Rooney’s years at top take their toll on Manchester United captain.


Independent: Wayne Rooney's presence is stifling Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Paul Pogba.


Telegraph say "this was a desperately poor, alarming performance from the United captain."

There's a lot more from the Metro, Daily Star, and Express, but I cannot link them, since they are banned.

Rayne Wooney

Pro. F wrote: »

Fellaini's is not identical to Pogba's. Fellaini had a lot more involvement deeper and more involvement in general, which is what you would expect from the deeper player:


And Pogba's isn't the same as Rooney's either. Rooney had more involvement further up and less involvement in general, which is what you would expect from the more advance player:


We might have had 60% possession, but Watford were not pinned back, so if Pogba was playing as a holding midfielder he wouldn't have had so much activity inside their half of the pitch.

(Note: all the images are still for the second half, as per your original post about Pogba)

It was less than box to box but more than a holding midfielder, it was in between. Not what he did at Juve, to accommodate Rooney slightly ahead of him to the detriment of the team imo.

Our first choice starting 11 were beaten well by Watford today, what do you believe needs to change to get us scoring goals?

Rayne Wooney

Those articles are like something we have seen when the papers have been briefed by the club about a transfer, kind of strange.

Pro. F

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

It was less than box to box but more than a holding midfielder, it was in between. Not what he did at Juve, to accommodate Rooney slightly ahead of him to the detriment of the team imo.

Yes, it isn't the role he played at Juve, that's clear. But it is also not a holding CM role. And it's not close to one either.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Our first choice starting 11 were beaten well by Watford today, what do you believe needs to change to get us scoring goals?

Scoring goals isn't the only problem. We conceded three today, one against some Dutch minnows on Thursday and two last week.

I believe Jose needs to settle the back four down - they have been poor in possession and weak under high balls. He needs to get the whole team defence better organised too. I think Jose needs to find two wide midfielders that can put in decent displays (Rashford might be one; Young, Lingard and Miki will probably all get chances again soon, maybe Memphis too). I think he has to get the whole team more comfortable with simple passing - we have looked very suspect all over the pitch in that regard, today and last weekend. And, really important, I think he has to get the team a lot fitter.

Cantona's Collars

https://www.facebook.com/BBCMOTD/videos/10154634454785982/

Clowns,the two of them........Rooney can play as a deep lying midfielder,my arse.He can barely pass the ball properly over 5 yards let alone dictate play from deep.Add to that,even the most bang average midfield would simply run past him or play around him.We all saw what happened to Gerrard at Liverpool when he was put in that role,he was destroyed and the back line was left exposed.

Cantona's Collars

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes, it isn't the role he played at Juve, that's clear. But it is also not a holding CM role. And it's not close to one either.



Scoring goals isn't the only problem. We conceded three today, one against some Dutch minnows on Thursday and two last week.

I believe Jose needs to settle the back four down - they have been poor in possession and weak under high balls. He needs to get the whole team defence better organised too. I think Jose needs to find two wide midfielders that can put in decent displays (Rashford might be one; Young, Lingard and Miki will probably all get chances again soon, maybe Memphis too). I think he has to get the whole team more comfortable with simple passing - we have looked very suspect all over the pitch in that regard, today and last weekend. And, really important, I think he has to get the team a lot fitter.

I agree with your overall point about conceding, but the bolded part is not true. Feyenoord beat us on Thursday to make that 6/6 competitive victories. Today they beat PSV away to make it 7/7 and are 5 points clear in the Eredivisie. They're no minnows, and we saw how the act of underestimating Dutch teams went for us last season.

As an aside, Brad Jones did the goalkeeper equivalent of scoring a winner for them with the last touch of the ball in that match v PSV today...

https://streamable.com/lygq

Pro. F

stankratz wrote: »

I agree with your overall point about conceding, but the bolded part is not true. Feyenoord beat us on Thursday to make that 6/6 competitive victories. Today they beat PSV away to make it 7/7 and are 5 points clear in the Eredivisie. They're no minnows, and we saw how the act of underestimating Dutch teams went for us last season.

As an aside, Brad Jones did the goalkeeper equivalent of scoring a winner for them with the last touch of the ball in that match v PSV today...

https://streamable.com/lygq

The strongest team in the Eredivisie are minnows compared to where United should be at. We were gash last season too and LVG was rightly sacked because of it.

RobertKK

zerks wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/BBCMOTD/videos/10154634454785982/

Clowns,the two of them........Rooney can play as a deep lying midfielder,my arse.He can barely pass the ball properly over 5 yards let alone dictate play from deep.Add to that,even the most bang average midfield would simply run past him or play around him.We all saw what happened to Gerrard at Liverpool when he was put in that role,he was destroyed and the back line was left exposed.

Stan Collymore must have been watching MOTD, and Trevor Sinclair saying Rooney should be played as a CDM.
He tweeted Boylesports looking for odds on Rooney playing as a defender by season end.

He must have thought they were clowns too.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

The strongest team in the Eredivisie are minnows compared to where United should be at. We were gash last season too and LVG was rightly sacked because of it.

That's a different argument of shoulds and ifs, not the current reality. United should be beating 90% of teams they play but we're well past those days unfortunately. On that form, Feyenoord are not minnows. This isn't like conceding against Midtjylland. Feyenoord are playing out of their skin at the moment in a league which is inferior to the PL, but still competitive and 'minnows' misrepresents the threat Feyenoord are in this Europa group. Even if Jose's United improve somewhat between now and the return match at OT, I'd still expect it to be a tough fixture.

Pro. F

stankratz wrote: »

That's a different argument of shoulds and ifs, not the current reality. United should be beating 90% of teams they play but we're well past those days unfortunately. On that form, Feyenoord are not minnows. This isn't like conceding against Midtjylland. Feyenoord are playing out of their skin at the moment in a league which is inferior to the PL, but still competitive and 'minnows' misrepresents the threat Feyenoord are in this Europa group. Even if Jose's United improve somewhat between now and the return match at OT, I'd still expect it to be a tough fixture.

It is not a different argument. When I referred to Feyenoord as minnows, I meant that relative to where United should be at. Nothing has changed about what I said, only what you thought I meant.

~Rebel~

zerks wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/BBCMOTD/videos/10154634454785982/

Clowns,the two of them........Rooney can play as a deep lying midfielder,my arse.He can barely pass the ball properly over 5 yards let alone dictate play from deep.Add to that,even the most bang average midfield would simply run past him or play around him.We all saw what happened to Gerrard at Liverpool when he was put in that role,he was destroyed and the back line was left exposed.

Ludicrous stuff...Sinclair putting him at number 4! No pace, very little in the way of interception awareness, not that great a passer...who are these lads watching, honestly!

IMO the only place he fits in that team where he might add something is as the furthest forward player. Living in the box. Could still offer a very good backup option there, but anywhere else he's nearly more of a hindrance at this stage.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

It is not a different argument. When I referred to Feyenoord as minnows, I meant that relative to where United should be at. Nothing has changed about what I said, only what you thought I meant.

You're still talking in 'should' and ignoring the current reality, both Feyenoord's and United's. I think you're wrong in deeming them minnows and have explained why. All you are doing is repeating what you said in your first post. Conceding one to them on their turf is no major indictment of our current defensive capabilities, three against Watford is a different story altogether though.

Pro. F

stankratz wrote: »

You're still talking in 'should' and ignoring the current reality, both Feyenoord's and United's. I think you're wrong in deeming them minnows and have explained why. All you are doing is repeating what you said in your first post. Conceding one to them on their turf is no major indictment of our current defensive capabilities, three against Watford is a different story altogether though.

There is no reason for me not to talk about where United should be at. United should be beating minnows like Feyenoord (even taking into consideration the squad rotation). The current reality is that United are struggling, even against minnows like Feyenoord. If that keeps up for a few months then Jose will, rightly, be sacked. Because everybody expects that United should handle minnows like Feyenoord comfortably.

We should be beating them out the gate. And just because our current form is gash, that doesn't stop them being minnows compared to a club like United. We dwarf them in terms of spending power, cost of squad, cost of manager and expectation.