Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016 - Mod Note in OP, 13/9

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

maybe because he was substituted 30mins before hand..

haha, nice one!

Ashley Young then who was playing right back. We didn't move to a flat back three as far as I recall.


Separately I see that whilst headlines indicated Mourinho singled out Luke Shaw (he singled out that scenario, which could have applied to Shaw, but also anyone near that side of the pitch) "senior players are said to be baffled and annoyed" at the treatment of Shaw.

Who now seemingly gets therapy session to help cope with playing for Manchester United.......

Either Rooney is off early this season seeing the writing on the wall, or we are already witnessing a the dreaded Jose effect.

I'm going to take it as Rooeny off early and/or wild speculation, but really need to put some performances and wins together to move out of this narrative building

TheDoc

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Seems to be a case of Murphy's law with us, everything seems to be going wrong.

The players even look unfit two months into the season.

Yeah whats the story with the teams general lead in their legs. We have fast players, we have slick passers. The team seems to be operating at 1mph. It's incredible when you look at the speed of other teams.

Surely can't be a fitness thing. Maybe just confidence low or lack of mental strength, but like there was times yesterday with Smalling or Bailly strolling with the ball out.

Can I blame Rooney?

I think whats more concerning is you say Mourinho giving those instructions. The clenched fist pumping down, the universal "lift it". Pogba said it a few times, Zlatan was giving lashings when he was back defending set pieces. So clearly people on the pitch are recognizing it, the manager recognizes it, but its not changing?

I think in all of this I have to remember Mourinho is a world class coach. He's brilliant. Sure he might be affected after Chelsea MKII, but we won't know until the season is over. This is a brilliant manager. I simply HAVe to believe everything I see wrong, he does also. Everything we all see wrong, he sees also. I have to believe, that a guy who seems to plan for everything, knows what the story is. He knows what needs doing, and his method or plan just isn't obvious to us yet.

I simply can't believe he is unsure or confused about this situation. A team he watched meticulously for six months. A team he seemed to outline to Woodward needed to do this and that, had this and that problem, needed this and that player.

I'm sincerely hoping things become more obvious in the weeks to come.

KH25

I think the team needs to be changed. Rooney isn't a midfielder: keep him away from there. If he's out of form at 10, then either drop him or play him as the striker (unlikely with Zlatan I know).

Play Pogba in his natural position and (IMO) stick Hererra in there too with one of Carrick, Morgan or Fellaini.

At the back I would still say we need a proper RB if Darmian is not going to get played. Valencia just isn't good enough against the bigger sides IMO.

TheDoc

Like at what expense are some of the squad getting pissed off. I'm thinking of Carrick, Hererra and Schneiderlan. Manager comes in and makes a big statement that Rooney is not a midfielder, and correctly so. Then to showhorn him in, Rooney starts in midfield. I thought Hererra showed more then enough against Feyenoord to show he has a role to play in this team should be midfield three be used. Same for Schneiderlan.

I'd be fuming if I was them, Hererra moreso. And whatever about Rooney being a senior player taking grievances to management, if I was Hererra I'd be into Mourinhos office today asking whats the ****ing story.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Like at what expense are some of the squad getting pissed off. I'm thinking of Carrick, Hererra and Schneiderlan. Manager comes in and makes a big statement that Rooney is not a midfielder, and correctly so. Then to showhorn him in, Rooney starts in midfield. I thought Hererra showed more then enough against Feyenoord to show he has a role to play in this team should be midfield three be used. Same for Schneiderlan.

I'd be fuming if I was them, Hererra moreso. And whatever about Rooney being a senior player taking grievances to management, if I was Hererra I'd be into Mourinhos office today asking whats the ****ing story.

Hasn't happened. In the summer Jose said he saw Rooney as a 9, 9-and-a-half or a 10. He played him at 10. Not in midfield.

Nalz

Pro. F wrote: »

Hasn't happened. In the summer Jose said he saw Rooney as a 9, 9-and-a-half or a 10. He played him at 10. Not in midfield.

Some people call an AM who likes to drop back and play the QB hollywood overhit by 10 yards passes a midfield position.

Pro. F

Nalz wrote: »

Some people call an AM who likes to drop back and play the QB hollywood overhit by 10 yards passes a midfield position.

Rooney has played as a #10. If some people think of #10s as midfielders that's fair enough. But Doc specifically referred to what Mourinho had said about Rooney's position in the summer (the "big statement," as Doc put it) and was portraying it as Jose having gone back on what he had said in the summer by playing Rooney in midfield. But Jose made the distinction between 10 and midfield in the summer and referred to Rooney as a #10 (as well as a 9) in that context. So Jose is doing what he said.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

There is no reason for me not to talk about where United should be at. United should be beating minnows like Feyenoord (even taking into consideration the squad rotation). The current reality is that United are struggling, even against minnows like Feyenoord. If that keeps up for a few months then Jose will, rightly, be sacked. Because everybody expects that United should handle minnows like Feyenoord comfortably.

We should be beating them out the gate. And just because our current form is gash, that doesn't stop them being minnows compared to a club like United. We dwarf them in terms of spending power, cost of squad, cost of manager and expectation.

That's grand in terms of club history, prestige, past success, future potential, where the club 'should' be at. Comparing them on that scale, United dwarf Feyenoord. If that is the metric for measuring minnows though, then most teams we face are minnows. What about the minnows who put 3 past us yesterday or the ones who Mike Phelan is in charge of and nearly held us to a scoreless draw a few weeks ago?

In current footballing ability context, which I have to believe was the context used since you were talking about goals conceded in recent games in your OP, 'minnows' is the wrong word to use to describe Feyenoord. You probably still don't agree with me, but I would have thought that 'minnows' would be better reserved for teams like Midtjylland and MK Dons who really should never be beating us, ever. A team which is topping the Eredivisie with 6/6 wins, beating everyone they face including PSV who comprehensively beat us last year (no matter which manager was in charge*) belong in a different bracket I feel.

For the record, I've never typed the word 'minnows' so much in my life, cheers Pro :pac:

*It doesn't matter which manager was in charge. And I say this as someone who believed that LVG was harnessing the players ability and instinct, and that any good manager installed, never mind a Jose, would see a noticeable improvement in the players' form. As we've seen though, even with Jose in charge, that hasn't happened yet. If it did, then I could look back at some (maybe a lot) of those shít results from last season and think that it was all LVG's fault and 'We would have beaten PSV with X as manager'. As you said, we were gash last season and our current form is gash.

TheDoc

Pro. F wrote: »

Hasn't happened. In the summer Jose said he saw Rooney as a 9, 9-and-a-half or a 10. He played him at 10. Not in midfield.

Looked to me like he was forming part of a midfield 3 with Fellaini at the base. The entire first half he appeared way too deep. There was a noticeable change in his position for the first 20 mins of the second half, assumingly when Mourinho got his hands on him.

I know the commentary was indicating that also, but considering the general Bt commentary I shouldn't trust them for anything.

I missed the initial kick off by a few mins, but some tweets indicated they showed a 4-2-3-1, but some of the journos mentioned their sheets outlined a 4-3-3

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

It was four on four including Capou and Janmaat (who crossed it). As you say we were caught out (it just being after a set-piece and too many of the front six having broken forward) - given that, there was no reason that Fellaini should have been on Capoue any more than any of the other four defenders. Smalling had gone to try and stop the cross. Valencia was at the back trying to stop Deeney from scoring. Bailly and Fellaini were near the front post. Ighalo made a run off the pair of them that drew both of their eyes, and goal face still needed a defender in it.

Blaming Fell for that goal, instead of the overall defencesive organisation, is wrong.

There was no need for both Fellaini and Bailly to be near front post especially since smelling went out to the man. It was up to Fellaini to go out to Capone and not any of the defenders. He was the defensive midfielder marking nobody in the box

Pro. F

stankratz wrote: »

That's grand in terms of club history, prestige, past success, future potential, where the club 'should' be at. Comparing them on that scale, United dwarf Feyenoord. If that is the metric for measuring minnows though, then most teams we face are minnows. What about the minnows who put 3 past us yesterday or the ones who Mike Phelan is in charge of and nearly held us to a scoreless draw a few weeks ago?

No, it's grand in terms of spending power, cost of squad, manager and expected results. Those are the metrics I actually put forward, which you have failed to mention. Instead you put forward your own metrics (club history, prestige, past success and future potential) and argued your case against them.

stankratz wrote: »

In current footballing ability context, which I have to believe was the context used since you were talking about goals conceded in recent games in your OP, 'minnows' is the wrong word to use to describe Feyenoord. You probably still don't agree with me, but I would have thought that 'minnows' would be better reserved for teams like Midtjylland and MK Dons who really should never be beating us, ever. A team which is topping the Eredivisie with 6/6 wins, beating everyone they face including PSV who comprehensively beat us last year (no matter which manager was in charge*) belong in a different bracket I feel.

For the record, I've never typed the word 'minnows' so much in my life, cheers Pro :pac:

*It doesn't matter which manager was in charge. And I say this as someone who believed that LVG was harnessing the players ability and instinct, and that any good manager installed, never mind a Jose, would see a noticeable improvement in the players' form. As we've seen though, even with Jose in charge, that hasn't happened yet. If it did, then I could look back at some (maybe a lot) of those shít results from last season and think that it was all LVG's fault and 'We would have beaten PSV with X as manager'. As you said, we were gash last season and our current form is gash.

I agree that there are different levels all the way down. Port Vale are minnows compared to Feyenoord, for example. But once you are a certain level above those teams then they are all still minnows, even if there is some differentiation amongst them. We are not too far away from the edge of being down there with the minnows. That will cause the manager to be sacked (just like the last one) if it doesn't change before too long.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

There was no need for both Fellaini and Bailly to be near front post especially since smelling went out to the man. It was up to Fellaini to go out to Capone and not any of the defenders. He was the defensive midfielder marking nobody in the box

If you're basing it on the name of their positions then it was no more up to Fellaini than it was any of the other defenders in that group of four.

J. Marston

Why not try Blind in midfield? Seems like he has the passing range and is defensively sound.

Pro. F

TheDoc wrote: »

Looked to me like he was forming part of a midfield 3 with Fellaini at the base. The entire first half he appeared way too deep. There was a noticeable change in his position for the first 20 mins of the second half, assumingly when Mourinho got his hands on him.

I know the commentary was indicating that also, but considering the general Bt commentary I shouldn't trust them for anything.

I missed the initial kick off by a few mins, but some tweets indicated they showed a 4-2-3-1, but some of the journos mentioned their sheets outlined a 4-3-3

He was part of a midfield three in the same way as he was part of a front four, or a midfield five, or a front six or a whole team 11. He was playing at #10. More advanced than Pogba (who was more advanced than Fellaini), and deeper than Ibra. The areas that Rooney appeared are the same as any normal, high profile #10.

Pro. F

Pro. F wrote: »

No, it's grand in terms of spending power, cost of squad, manager and expected results. Those are the metrics I actually put forward, which you have failed to mention. Instead you put forward your own metrics (club history, prestige, past success and future potential) and argued your case against them.

I misunderstood you there, but now that you've listed the metrics you are talking about, when is a football match ever decided on those things? I agree with you on the scope of our own lot compared to theirs, but unfortunately it's not as black and white as that. You surely will have noticed that not all clubs are getting the results they expected despite having spent a lot of money on squad and/or coaching staff.

I'm talking about current reality on the field and that goes to 1) We are bad and have been for considerable time now, despite spending power/cost of squad 2) The Eredivisie is not the SPL 3) Feyenoord are bossing it 4) Conceding a goal to them in Feyenoord is not the end of the world, because 5) I really don't think they are minnows.

Pro F. wrote:

I agree that there are different levels all the way down. Port Vale are minnows compared to Feyenoord, for example. But once you are a certain level above those teams then they are all still minnows, even if there is some differentiation amongst them. We are not too far away from the edge of being down there with the minnows. That will cause the manager to be sacked (just like the last one) if it doesn't change before too long.

Will we just agree disagree on our definition of the M word in football? I really believed it was a term used for a team far lower in the pecking order than Feyenoord, like a Port Vale, I still do. When I first read your original paragraph about conceding too much and came across "Dutch minnows last week", I stopped and had to think to myself "Wait...who the fúck did we play, did I miss a game?" I even thought you might have been partaking in a bit of sarcasm and would have pointed that out in your first reply to me! That's how much it threw me. And by the way, I am no Feyenoord fan, or someone who thinks that performance and result was acceptable last Thursday.

I agree, even though it is early days and there's been a lot of adjustments made over the Summer at his request, Jose will find himself under immense pressure very soon if he can't get some results together.

Pro. F

stankratz wrote: »

I misunderstood you there, but now that you've listed the metrics you are talking about, when is a football match ever decided on those things? I agree with you on the scope of our own lot compared to theirs, but unfortunately it's not as black and white as that. You surely will have noticed that not all clubs are getting the results they expected despite having spent a lot of money on squad and/or coaching staff.

No, individual football matches or not decided on these things. But which teams become the big fish and which ones the minnows are.

stankratz wrote: »

I'm talking about current reality on the field and that goes to 1) We are bad and have been for considerable time now, despite spending power/cost of squad 2) The Eredivisie is not the SPL 3) Feyenoord are bossing it 4) Conceding a goal to them in Feyenoord is not the end of the world, because 5) I really don't think they are minnows.

The current reality on the field will get the manager sacked if it keeps up. Just like it got the last two sacked. Because United are spending like big fish and so expect big-fish-like results. The facts that the Eredivisie is not the SPL, that Feyenoord are bossing it and that conceding a goal against them is not the end of the world, are all not relevant to that point.

stankratz wrote: »

Will we just agree disagree on our definition of the M word in football? I really believed it was a term used for a team far lower in the pecking order than Feyenoord, like a Port Vale, I still do. When I first read your original paragraph about conceding too much and came across "Dutch minnows last week", I stopped and had to think to myself "Wait...who the fúck did we play, did I miss a game?" I even thought you might have been partaking in a bit of sarcasm and would have pointed that out in your first reply to me! That's how much it threw me. And by the way, I am no Feyenoord fan, or someone who thinks that performance and result was acceptable last Thursday.

I agree, even though it is early days and there's been a lot of adjustments made over the Summer at his request, Jose will find himself under immense pressure very soon if he can't get some results together.

Yeah, we should probably agree to disagree on the definition of minnows.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

If you're basing it on the name of their positions then it was no more up to Fellaini than it was any of the other defenders in that group of four.

Centre backs should never be running out of the box to close down a man on the edge of the box in a situation where the ball was. It would be suicide defending. I cannot see how you are trying to defend Fellaini for his positioning on that goal

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

Centre backs should never be running out of the box to close down a man on the edge of the box in a situation where the ball was. It would be suicide defending. I cannot see how you are trying to defend Fellaini for his positioning on that goal

Fellaini was acting as a CB, because Smalling had had to go out to the wide man on the ball. And so he was just as much of a back-line defender as Bailly was at that point. When you are caught short of numbers right in front of goal with the opposition bearing down, you don't start checking the team-sheet to see who is allowed to close down the danger.

Neither Bailly nor Fellaini would have made it out to Capoue in time in this case anyway, so it is pointless. A DM getting into the back-line when the opposition is bearing down on the back-line is not a problem in this situation. The whole team being caught short of numbers at the back is.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Fellaini was acting as a CB, because Smalling had had to go out to the wide man on the ball. And so he was just as much of a back-line defender as Bailly was at that point. When you are caught short of numbers right in front of goal with the opposition bearing down, you don't start checking the team-sheet to see who is allowed to close down the danger.

Neither Bailly nor Fellaini would have made it out to Capoue in time in this case anyway, so it is pointless. A DM getting into the back-line when the opposition is bearing down on the back-line is not a problem in this situation. The whole team being caught short of numbers at the back is.

a piece of an article taken from the Guardian..

"Fellaini vacating his natural zone proved crucial in Watford’s first two goals. For the opener the Belgian found himself in the defensive line, opening up oceans of space for Étienne Capoue, on the edge of the box, who converted Janmaat’s pull-back. It was his fourth goal of the campaign – after none last season. In Mazzarri’s system he is afforded more licence to push forward, whereas under Quique Sánchez Flores he played a very defensive role.

Something similar happened for the second goal. Fellaini followed Roberto Pereyra’s run – which arguably should have been Paul Pogba’s job – and this opened up space for another cut-back, from Pereyra, allowing Juan Zúñiga to blast home with his first touch. Zúñiga, incidentally, had just replaced Capoue.

Watford’s third goal, ironically, saw Fellaini in the right place to cope with a cut-back – but his clumsy challenge on Zúñiga conceded a penalty, which Troy Deeney scored. United were continually exposed in the same zone, albeit in different ways."

it was poor from an experienced player no matter what way you look at it

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

a piece of an article taken from the Guardian..

"Fellaini vacating his natural zone proved crucial in Watford’s first two goals. For the opener the Belgian found himself in the defensive line, opening up oceans of space for Étienne Capoue, on the edge of the box, who converted Janmaat’s pull-back. It was his fourth goal of the campaign – after none last season. In Mazzarri’s system he is afforded more licence to push forward, whereas under Quique Sánchez Flores he played a very defensive role.

Something similar happened for the second goal. Fellaini followed Roberto Pereyra’s run – which arguably should have been Paul Pogba’s job – and this opened up space for another cut-back, from Pereyra, allowing Juan Zúñiga to blast home with his first touch. Zúñiga, incidentally, had just replaced Capoue.

Watford’s third goal, ironically, saw Fellaini in the right place to cope with a cut-back – but his clumsy challenge on Zúñiga conceded a penalty, which Troy Deeney scored. United were continually exposed in the same zone, albeit in different ways."

it was poor from an experienced player no matter what way you look at it

I don't care what Michael Cox's opinion on the matter is.

crkball6

bangkok wrote: »

Something similar happened for the second goal. Fellaini followed Roberto Pereyra’s run – which arguably should have been Paul Pogba’s job – and this opened up space for another cut-back, from Pereyra, allowing Juan Zúñiga to blast home with his first touch. Zúñiga, incidentally, had just replaced Capoue.


it was poor from an experienced player no matter what way you look at it

I'll need to look at the first goal closer, but for the second the pass takes out pogba/shaw At this point he has no choice but to follow the run and close it down. There is nothing he could have done here, if he holds they'll most likely score but if he goes he might close down the ball.

You could blame shaw, you could blame pogba, you could blame smalling.
You're choosing to lay the blame at moro's door and that's fine. You're just wrong.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't care what Michael Cox's opinion on the matter is.

i surprised you cant see it yourself. at no time did fellaini look over his shoulder for first goal to see who was around him.

bangkok

crkball6 wrote: »

I'll need to look at the first goal closer, but for the second the pass takes out pogba/shaw At this point he has no choice but to follow the run and close it down. There is nothing he could have done here, if he holds they'll most likely score but if he goes he might close down the ball.

You could blame shaw, you could blame pogba, you could blame smalling.
You're choosing to lay the blame at moro's door and that's fine. You're just wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgb1Yuj9_8

theres the first goal for you

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

i surprised you cant see it yourself. at no time did fellaini look over his shoulder for first goal to see who was around him.

Wrong. He looked over his shoulder and found Ighalo; starts to match his run; but then continues back to cover behind Bailly and occupy the near post and the middle of the goal, when he sees Bailly move towards where Ighalo is running. The cut back then goes within a hard or so of Ighalo.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Wrong. He looked over his shoulder and found Ighalo; starts to match his run; but then continues back to cover behind Bailly and occupy the near post and the middle of the goal, when he sees Bailly move towards where Ighalo is running.

marking nobody while capoue has a free run at the box and scores from 12 yards out

crkball6

bangkok wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAgb1Yuj9_8

theres the first goal for you

It's harsh to lay it on his door, first of all he was the defensive header to get the ball away. Then martial dilly dally s gets caught out / fouled so everyone else is moving away from the goal So the real problem was martial fcking around. The ref not giving a free. We're low on numbers as everyone else has ran out.

To pin point Fel here. I don't think so.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

marking nobody while capoue has a free run at the box and scores from 12 yards out

You don't seem to realise that you are supposed to get a defender in front of and behind any opposition players in the goal face when a cross is coming in. Fellaini was stopping the ball getting to Deeney (which is marking in advance of the player), while also covering behind Bailly, who was going out to Ighalo. If Fellaini had been further out, marking Capoue, when the cross came in and it had been played accross goal (or shot at goal) then Deeney would have had a very good chance to score.

You also don't seem to realise that once Fellaini went in to fill in the back-line there was no way that he was getting back out in time to stop Capaue who came from deeper. That was the job of the rest of the team who had moved up the pitch too quick.

Blaming Fellaini on that goal instead of the whole team's defensive organisation is wrong.

DM_7

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't care what Michael Cox's opinion on the matter is.

Bangkok left out the part before that,

-
Fellaini, forced to adjust his position to anchor the midfield rather than playing as part of a duo, spent much of his first half dropping back between United's centre-backs to offer extra height, and a spare man against one of the most effective strike partnerships in the league.

-

Which actually backs up your own summary of the need for him to get back into the defensive line. The problem was the lack of another mf rather than Fellaini.

These goals happen when teams get too many players caught up field.

Worth noting the piece was mainly a critique on Jose's tactical decisions (justifiably imo)

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

You don't seem to realise that you are supposed to get a defender in front of and behind any opposition players in the goal face when a cross is coming in. Fellaini was stopping the ball getting to Deeney (which is marking in advance of the player), while also covering behind Bailly, who was going out to Ighalo. If Fellaini had been further out, marking Capoue, when the cross came in and it had been played accross goal (or shot at goal) then Deeney would have had a very good chance to score.

You also don't seem to realise that once Fellaini went in to fill in the back-line there was no way that he was getting back out in time to stop Capaue who came from deeper. That was the job of the rest of the team who had moved up the pitch too quick.

Blaming Fellaini on that goal instead of the whole team's defensive organisation is wrong.

smalling would have stopped the ball going to deeney. fellaini was marking nobody in this situation which was a major fault in the goal being scored

Maximus Alexander

By the looks of it, we've a tough match coming up on Wednesday. :pac:

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

smalling would have stopped the ball going to deeney. fellaini was marking nobody in this situation which was a major fault in the goal being scored

Nope. Smalling wasn't at all likely to be stopping that ball getting to the near post. Fellaini of course might not have been able to stop it going accross goal from that point, but it was perfectly acceptable for him to be taking up a position to try.

And nope, Fellaini was not a major fault in that goal being scored. The idea that a player occupying a zone instead of being on a man is automatically it at fault in this type of situation is wrong.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Nope. Smalling wasn't at all likely to be stopping that ball getting to the near post. Fellaini of course might not have been able to stop it going accross goal from that point, but it was perfectly acceptable for him to be taking up a position to try.

And nope, Fellaini was not a major fault in that goal being scored. The idea that a player occupying a zone instead of being on a man is automatically it at fault in this type of situation is wrong.

smalling was in the direct line of the pass. he wasnt a major fault but he def could have prevented it

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

smalling was in the direct line of the pass.

No he wasn't. And what's more, Smalling was trying to stop the cross/cut-back while Deeney was moving through the line that Smalling was blocking. There was a very good chance of Janmaat getting in a low cross/shot even with Smalling there.

bangkok wrote: »

he wasnt a major fault but he def could have prevented it

Well they all could have prevented it. But the thing is Fellaini was doing the right thing. Smalling, Bailly and Valencia were doing the right thing. The fact that they were defending a situation that close to goal with four on four is the problem.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

No he wasn't. And what's more, Smalling was trying to stop the cross/cut-back while Deeney was moving through the line that Smalling was blocking. There was a very good chance of Janmaat getting in a low cross/shot even with Smalling there.




Well they all could have prevented it. But the thing is Fellaini was doing the right thing. Smalling, Bailly and Valencia were doing the right thing. The fact that they were defending a situation that close to goal with four on four is the problem.

If janmaat had of shot it would have been a near post shot which de gea would have saved.

You play the percentages, Fellaini wasn't marking anyone, Capoue took a shot 12 yards from our goal unmarked. He should have looked a lot sooner to spot the danger

adox

Mourhino now has his own thread.

That's Rooney and Mourhino with their own threads and we aren't even into October yet. :pac:

deaddonkey15

Are people really blaming Rooney for the first goal against Watford?

Lord TSC

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Are people really blaming Rooney for the first goal against Watford?

Imo, it was Martial's for dawdling on the ball (though the bash to the head was a factor there) and then both Rooney and Pogba for not closing down the pass to the edge of the box. The defensive line and Fellaini got drawn inside. At that stage, you're relying on your center mids to make sure there's no one left unmarked on the edge of the box.

The_Kew_Tour

I read this back around end July that Jose teams tend to start very slow at any club he been at.

I'm pretty sure I have it in my room try dig it out tomorrow if can

~Rebel~

Pro. F wrote: »

Rooney has played as a #10. If some people think of #10s as midfielders that's fair enough. But Doc specifically referred to what Mourinho had said about Rooney's position in the summer (the "big statement," as Doc put it) and was portraying it as Jose having gone back on what he had said in the summer by playing Rooney in midfield. But Jose made the distinction between 10 and midfield in the summer and referred to Rooney as a #10 (as well as a 9) in that context. So Jose is doing what he said.

It's not the old 10 role he played in where he was off the shoulder of the 9, ready for quick one-twos to break through the lines. It looks a bit more like the midfield role Lallana has at Liverpool right now...a more withdrawn 10, leaving a distinction between the attacking trio and the midfield trio. Getting up in support around the edge of the box, but far far from second striker territory. (Though Rooney looks a little more withdrawn than Lallana positionally)

Here's his heatmap from the weekend;

deaddonkey15

Lord TSC wrote: »

Imo, it was Martial's for dawdling on the ball (though the bash to the head was a factor there) and then both Rooney and Pogba for not closing down the pass to the edge of the box. The defensive line and Fellaini got drawn inside. At that stage, you're relying on your center mids to make sure there's no one left unmarked on the edge of the box.

Yeah if Watford had the ball. United had possession and both midfielders had pushed forward to counter. It was too quick a transition I think to blame either of them for not sitting in front of the box. If Martial had kept possession and Rooney had delayed pushing forward for the counter he would no doubt get flak for that too.

Pro. F

bangkok wrote: »

If janmaat had of shot it would have been a near post shot which de gea would have saved.

Yeah, if he shot at the near post, but if he had cross/shot, driving it towards the back post or just towards the area that Deeney was entering, then Deeney would have had a good chance at getting a point blank shot on goal from a few yards out.

bangkok wrote: »

You play the percentages, Fellaini wasn't marking anyone, Capoue took a shot 12 yards from our goal unmarked. He should have looked a lot sooner to spot the danger

You can say the same about Bailly. The thing is, Capoue came from deep, so really it's the rest of the front six who should have been getting on him. The back-four were occupied with the three players bearing down on goal.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

Yeah, if he shot at the near post, but if he had cross/shot, driving it towards the back post or just towards the area that Deeney was entering, then Deeney would have had a good chance at getting a point blank shot on goal from a few yards out.



You can say the same about Bailly. The thing is, Capoue came from deep, so really it's the rest of the front six who should have been getting on him. The back-four were occupied with the three players bearing down on goal.

We see it different ways, if I was smalling or Bailly I would be disappointed with him for not picking up anyone

bangkok

Seen there today, of all the teams in the league, we have ran the least amount of all the teams. Liverpool have ran the most, I think it was nearly 70km more than us. That is massive difference

TheDoc

~Rebel~ wrote: »

It's not the old 10 role he played in where he was off the shoulder of the 9, ready for quick one-twos to break through the lines. It looks a bit more like the midfield role Lallana has at Liverpool right now...a more withdrawn 10, leaving a distinction between the attacking trio and the midfield trio. Getting up in support around the edge of the box, but far far from second striker territory. (Though Rooney looks a little more withdrawn than Lallana positionally)

Here's his heatmap from the weekend;

The 10 is something I don't think everyone agrees on. In terms of what it is. I'd be more I guess high level when I talk about a 10,operating offensively and nearly like a secondary striker.

ProF and others describe it more like an auxiliary CM.

All the match reports, analysis, opinion, directions and stuff state the formation 4-3-3 with Rooney in midfield.

That is how I saw it too.

But then I recall for Mourinho using 10s differently.

So maybe my expectation of what our 10 should be doing is not what I am ever gonna see.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

The 10 is something I don't think everyone agrees on. In terms of what it is. I'd be more I guess high level when I talk about a 10,operating offensively and nearly like a secondary striker.

ProF and others describe it more like an auxiliary CM.

All the match reports, analysis, opinion, directions and stuff state the formation 4-3-3 with Rooney in midfield.

That is how I saw it too.

But then I recall for Mourinho using 10s differently.

So maybe my expectation of what our 10 should be doing is not what I am ever gonna see.

Yep Rooney played 3 man midfield as far as I could see. I was always a big defender of Rooney but I think he should be taken out of the team

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

Seen there today, of all the teams in the league, we have ran the least amount of all the teams. Liverpool have ran the most, I think it was nearly 70km more than us. That is massive difference

No major deal really. Mourinho doesn't believe in a press in the final third and I cant say I disagree.

When not in possession we receded to our half. We should though be pressing in our half, turning over possession and then counter attacking.

That must be what's frustrating Mourinho. Our press looks slow in our half and when we get possession our movement is slow.

Liverpool do a lot of final third pressing. That commits bodies. You can see the goals they conceed they can be pretty open from not very incisive play.

We dwarfed Leicester possession last season, but I doubt Ranieri was sitting there sweating. Styles are going to have more key metrics.

TheDoc

bangkok wrote: »

Yep Rooney played 3 man midfield as far as I could see. I was always a big defender of Rooney but I think he should be taken out of the team

I wonder does Rooney feel he actually has license to drop that deep. Is he actually believing he's as influential as people make out?

I can only believe it's a Mourinho instruction. Can't believe that if Rooney was doing it off his own accord Mourinho would sort it out quickly.

"Wayne, **** off out of midfield and move up"

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

I wonder does Rooney feel he actually has license to drop that deep.

I'm thinking of Sam's "He can play where he wants" comments after the last England game.

bangkok

TheDoc wrote: »

I wonder does Rooney feel he actually has license to drop that deep. Is he actually believing he's as influential as people make out?

I can only believe it's a Mourinho instruction. Can't believe that if Rooney was doing it off his own accord Mourinho would sort it out quickly.

"Wayne, **** off out of midfield and move up"

Mourinho said he would never be a no 6 or a no 8, I think rooneys next position is on the bench

Sand

bangkok wrote: »

Mourinho said he would never be a no 6 or a no 8, I think rooneys next position is on the bench

It probably will be for the cup game, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him back in the side for the LCFC game. He has been unaccountable for his performances for a very long time and Jose knows dropping him for a big game will have the press (and the commercial side of the club) all over him at a time when he is weakest politically - 3 game losing streak, and no guarantee the other players are ready to step up put in some performances to prove him right.