Dangerous breeds & their owners

david75

More of a question and a story than anything but what is it with that certain type of lad and his dog? Why is it they just won't follow the rules and muzzle them? Full story.
Our guy is a boxer. He's 5. Attacked outta nowhere the other day in the park by a huge mastiff off lead and not muzzled. Our guy is 30 kilos. Other dog was a Spanish mastiff. About 45 kilos. He was huge. Had our guy by the neck shaking him and just wouldn't let go, his owner arrived shortly after and on him and punching him to let go.

His dog did eventually let go and then keeled over and started shaking then suddenly stopped and stopped breathing. Looked like a heart attack. The guy was sitting him on crying punching his chest. Our guy was shook and terrified but no blood or damage. Yet.

His dog eventually comes to and is all groggy and in a bad way.
We were all shocked n just walked off.
This was a few days ago. Then Yesterday our fella really isn't himself and the cuts he had are clearly now infected. Brought him to the vet today and a huge fright when she shaved the injuries. Badly infected.
Huge bill I don't mind paying, anything for me boy. But it just wouldn't have happened if the other guy had been muzzled. At all. What kind of recourse do we have in an instance like this? In the immediate of long term? Shouldn't even have to think like this if they just were all muzzled if they're sposed to be.

Won't do the whole it could have easily been a baby or a kid thing. That's obvious. But if a dog that size on the restricted breeds list is able to run around the park attacking other dogs, with no come back? It just isnt fair.

Pic of the injury is nasty. But for comparison our lad is a medium big dog.

Utah

This is horrible. I would hate it to happen to my dog.

I believe the restricted breeds shouldn't need muzzling if they are trained properly and obey their owners. A lot of people have dog breeds for show or as a sign of masculinity/status etc. so don't really do much in the way of training. Obviously all people will say they're in control of their dogs but there's no way of policing/proving this so they all should have to be muzzled as you said.

Hope he gets better soon

david75

Well that's it. Our lad is a big enough dog and either runs up to or has dogs running up to him in the park every day. Never any trouble generally, though smaller dogs are usually he ones going bananas to be fair.

I'm sure this guys dog is a lovely friendly thing at home. And I genuinely felt terrible for him when his dog collapsed. I'd be in bits the same way if it was mine. That happening actually distracted me from being upset or angry about what happened. Only today when I saw the damage did I get really angry. And upset.

Just muzzle it like. Or don't have it around other dogs if this is likely to happen. Can't understand it at all.

cocker5

good god OP i hope your dog is ok - thats horrendous!!

personally i think ALL dogs with agression issues should be muzzled from "tea cup" dogs (or whatever they are called) to giant dogs... regardless of the breed.

I have had a terrier (a grey rat) and a springer both OFF lead come tearing up the road and attack my cocker (on lead) - both times i was able to give them a right boot up the a*re but if it were a bigger dog i dont know what i would do thats just awful

good god the owner sounds like a right d*ckhead too .. no wonder the dog has issues

david75

Not casting any judgement on the owner, to a degree dogs will be dogs and these things will happen regardless of size and as we all know it is usually the smaller dogs that are terrorists. But it's the total disregard of other people and other peoples dogs and their safety that really gets to me.

Rommie

Jesus, hope the poor fella's okay OP. Those are some serious injuries!

In regards the law, and I stand to be corrected on this, but the presa canario isn't on the restricted breeds list (unless they're covered by bandogge??) so it really just goes to show how the restricted breed laws are a joke anyway as any and all breeds have the potential to be aggressive. It should be the owners focused on, not the breed. I have restricted breeds myself and they have never been allowed off lead but I've had everything from chihuahuas to great danes attack them while trying to walk in the park -_- I wish we had a proper dog licencing system where you had to pass an exam before you could own a dog. Though that will never happen in Ireland of course

Unfortunately dogos, presas and cane corsos seem to be becoming the new popular breed for certain types who the restricted breed laws would never stop anyway

Choc Chip

I'm really sorry for what happened to your dog op.

I don't think the restricted breed legislation would help incidents like this though. As has already been mentioned, there are an abundance of large, powerful breeds that are capable of doing serious damage and aren't on the restricted breeds list. Even if adherence to the restricted breeds legislation was cracked-down on, these breeds wouldn't be affected and people who got dogs for a particular image would just move to these breeds. It would be far better if Ireland had "deed not breed" legislation and incidents like this by any dog were prosecuted, rather than having a general law against all dogs of a specific breed. I'd also love a licensing system for owning a dog!

[Off-topic: Never mind all the issues that can be created with muzzling all dogs of a breed (socialisation of muzzled dogs, public perception of breeds, presumed "safety" of non-muzzled dogs etc).]

I really am sorry about your dog - I'd be traumatised if it happened to mine. I hope he heals up and is feeling better soon!

Personally its the off lead I take issue with. If you're not entirely sure your dog is safe and under effective control why let them off lead?

I don't support the restricted breed list (I think you said dangerous in your title if I'm not mistaken) but I hear what you're saying about particular types of people feeling the need to have what they perceive to be tough dogs and I think they are so caught up in the image that training doesn't cross their minds.

My dog has been attacked while out and about a number of times. She has never instigated and she has never fought back. Each time the other owner managed to drag their dog off before any real physical damage was done. On the last occasion however the dog pinned her to the ground and was making for her throat when she slipped her collar and managed to escape. She ran for a main road and could have been killed that way. The worst part was our little terrier, who was with us but I had managed to shove into the car, the dog who was attacked and myself, were all so shocked that it had a lasting effect on each of us. For a long time I wouldn't walk them on my own out of fear and my terrier in particular has become much more fearful of other dogs which presents as incessant barking to keep them away from him. The owner said his dog escaped the house and is usually on the lead but I've recently learned this isn't true and he's often off lead. I don't live anywhere near there anymore.
I still break out in a sweat if an off lead dog runs towards us because in all honesty I haven't a clue how I could protect my dogs. So I'm so sorry that happened to you and I sympathise completely.
I don't think muzzling all dogs or all of a particular breed is the answer. But I do wish more people kept their dogs on a lead when they don't have good recall etc.
Hope your dog is OK OP and there's no lasting psychological effects on either of you.

david75

That's sounds horrible! I know how you feel. It's funny cos I'm in the park every day and being totally honest my dog is flaky with his recall. It's never an issue with dogs. He'll run over and they're off lead too and me and that owner do that awkward chit chat blah blah until they're bored or I tempt my guy back with a stick. Never any trouble. In 5 years in the park with him.

I can walk him off lead past herds of deer and that's the sometime. That's the time where I keep him busy and mind occupied but other times he just doesn't care. But one time in a hundred he will go l. He'll chase them off and they scatter and he just comes back all happy with himself. Wouldn't know what to do if he got one. Seriously. But I know my dog. He isn't one of them. That's it I guess.

He only gets truly worked up if someone comes at me(got punched in the head last year for a yes equality badge and my dog went mental at them. Never seen him like it). Other than that he barks when there's a knock on the door. That's all.

Just don't get why these lads don't get that it could be their kid. Their neighbours kid or dog. Just muzzle it.

Maybe they look on being reprimanded(as if) as a trophy?

It's pathetic.

david75

https://instagram.com/p/BIuERb0BVxA/
https://instagram.com/p/BIw0lLShFib/

david75

We were minding the little fella few weeks ago. Little fella was the screeching little maniac as you can imagine. They were best friends before any time

deadlybuzzman

We own a restricted breed and theres 2 there's two points that come to mind

1. If I'm out with our hound (who incidentally does nothing but want to play with every dog she's ever met from great Dane to Jack Russell pup) and I meet someone else with a RB dog, I do some furious sizing up as there is alot of little men trying to be the big man out there.

2. The Restricted Breeds (not Dangerous Dogs, if there were dangerous almost nobody could own them) list is utter horse****.
Any dog that's over 30kg and is unruly is a danger. An argument could be made to add all large dogs to the list.
As Professor Green in a recent documentary about RB breeds pointed out, all the laws have done is attach a Badby image to certain dogs that then attract the wannabe harden that then neglect the poor dog.
Put a few Weimaraners on gangster shows and low and behold they would be a devil dog again just as they were a hundred years ago.

Latatian

I haven't had a lot of trouble with dogs on the RB list, mostly with labradors. They're friendly so it's okay that they come and snarl at my on-lead dog and follow us, or flatten the arthritic dog being 'friendly'.

My perspective is that if you can call your off-lead dog away from mine, if your dog's on-lead, or is off-lead and doesn't approach us, then I'm happy no matter what breed you're walking.

I wish there was some kind of measure focused on the dog's likelihood of doing harm, or owners who are likely to have dogs out of control. Hell, if the dog warden just walked along with a friendly dog and ticketed everyone who couldn't call their dog away or retrieve it if requested, or who let their aggressive dog follow other people off-lead or start fights, that might be a start.

Or if dogs had to be muzzled after they were involved in a fight that caused harm ('dog with good bite inhibition who rebuffs a puppy in a loud but harmless way' isn't the same as 'dog who goes for a smaller dog and rips open skin').

Edit: I have seen someone walking an ENORMOUS mastiff of similar type, and the dog is perfectly-behaved and always on lead, never any trouble with it.

I am really sorry about what happened to your dog, the poor mite. It really, really isn't fair. I bet if the owner had pain like that (or any aversive stimulus of that nature- say, a whopping fine) every time that happened he would be a lot quicker to leash his dog. Not saying remorse isn't a thing- just that the consequences for the owner usually aren't as great for the consequences for the dogs involved.

FluffyAngel

The title of your thread is incorrect for me ,shpuldnt it be dangerous owners and their breeds

maggiepip

I've only ever had one very bad experience, touch wood and thankfully, in all my years walking my dogs, and a Labrador was the culprit. Ripped the lower half of one of my dogs ears in two (my black Lab ironically), my terrier was there also at the time, but this dog went straight for my own Labrador, totally unprovoked, my Lab has no interest in other dogs. My dog was on lead and this dog was off lead.

I have a major problem with people who have their dogs off lead but cant control them, no matter what breed they are. My Collie is reactive to other dogs and she is kept on lead, people allowing their dogs to charge me and my on lead dog is not fair.

Pkiernan

OP, did you call the cops?
What happens when this guy's dog does the same to a kid?

There is no valid reason why all dogs should not be muzzled in public irrespective of breed.

All dog owners should be held criminally and civilly responsible for the actions of their animals.

shaunr68

One of our mini poodles was attacked by a Bull Terrier while we were camping in Poland. Despite pinning it down with my knee on its neck, more to stop it shaking him, and punching it repeatedly with the missus kicking it up the backside, it wouldn't let go. We tired it out eventually and it slunk off, Eric had a couple of punctures on one of his ears but was otherwise fine physically, I thought it was going to rip his head off. Psychologically though he is now very timid and afraid of his own shadow, and this is two years after the event.

I'm sorry to say that I'm not prepared to put myself in a position where I have to fight off an unprovoked attack with nothing more than my fists and now carry a claw hammer in my pocket when we go walking where we might encounter other dogs.

maggiepip

Pkiernan wrote: »

OP, did you call the cops?
What happens when this guy's dog does the same to a kid?

There is no valid reason why all dogs should not be muzzled in public irrespective of breed.

All dog owners should be held criminally and civilly responsible for the actions of their animals.

Dog on dog aggression is totally different from dog on human aggression, a dog that attacks another dog in no way indicates it's likely to attack a human or a child.

People need to take responsibility for their dogs and be held responsible when things go wrong, but there's absolutely no need for all dogs to be muzzled in public. That's completely over the top.

VonVix

I think in the case of OPs situation, it's more that the dog who attacked should have been on leash to begin with.

Even if your dog is "nice", it should not be running up to strange dogs willynilly, especially if someone else's dog is on leash. It's rude. It's unfair to a potentially fearful dog and/or a stressed out owner. You need your dog under control when off leash and it needs to not run up to every dog it sees.

I think people seem to forget the impact and importance of large breeds needing educated owners, especially as the population grows, we are getting more and more dog owners, and there is barely any education out there on how to raise and own a dog properly. A large amount of incidences happen because of ignorant dog owners, nothing to do with the dogs individually.

You need to know what you're getting yourself in for when it comes to the breed you have. You need to know how to train your dog properly to get the best out of your dog and build a relationship where the dog is happy to oblige in what you ask of it, especially in off lead circumstances. You need to be able to read your dog's body language and know when you have to do things differently to protect both yourself and your dog in the future, if your dog has one incident (where they are the instigator) in aggressive actions towards another dog (or person, etc.) you need to take steps to prevent that from ever happening again in the future. It's not being selfish keeping your dog on lead if it means that no-one else has to potentially have a bad experience from your dog.

If you asked the average large dog owner what are 5 signs of a dog being uncomfortable in a situation they are in, they probably would not be able to answer it correctly.

This was a bit of a ramble from a half awake, slightly cranky woman, hope it makes sense lol...

deadlybuzzman

maggiepip wrote: »

Dog on dog aggression is totally different from dog on human aggression, a dog that attacks another dog in no way indicates it's likely to attack a human or a child.

People need to take responsibility for their dogs and be held responsible when things go wrong, but there's absolutely no need for all dogs to be muzzled in public. That's completely over the top.

Absolutely, unprovoked human vs dog aggression is very different however it's not a big jump for a dog that's already attacking a dog to turn it's attention to a human that's breaking up the fight.
I spotted a story about a guy in England that Died recently after getting attacked by a dog that had initially attacked his dog.
We muzzle our dog when in public but it's not even anything to with the law, it's due to dopey parents that can't control their kids, our dog is a bit fearful around kids and in the past we've had noisy little kids charge up to her as she covers and if she happened to be cornered at the time it would be very understandable for her to snap.
I still can't get my head around a parent letting their kids run off towards a strange dog be it big or small. A big dog can potentially do more damage but going by what I see when on walks, small dogs can be very inclined to want to bite

VonVix

VonVix wrote: »

I think in the case of OPs situation, it's more that the dog who attacked should have been on leash to begin with.

Even if your dog is "nice", it should not be running up to strange dogs willynilly, especially if someone else's dog is on leash. It's rude. It's unfair to a potentially fearful dog and/or a stressed out owner. You need your dog under control when off leash and it needs to not run up to every dog it sees.

This was a bit of a ramble from a half awake, slightly cranky woman, hope it makes sense lol...

It makes perfect sense and I agree completely with every word, particularly the bit above. My terrier was always fearful but after the attack I described in my earlier post he is much worse. Trying to show him that walking past other dogs is a harmless experience is very hard when 'friendly dogs' are barging towards us hopping around the place and ignoring their owners calls to come back. I've had many walks ruined by totally harmless dogs who are so intent on playing with my guys that we aren't able to move past him and continue on our way. The owner meanwhile has done four laps of the park oblivious. Its so rude.

(Having said that, when I'm on my own I love to see a dog come bounding at me!)

maggiepip

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

Absolutely, unprovoked human vs dog aggression is very different however it's not a big jump for a dog that's already attacking a dog to turn it's attention to a human that's breaking up the fight.
I spotted a story about a guy in England that Died recently after getting attacked by a dog that had initially attacked his dog.
We muzzle our dog when in public but it's not even anything to with the law, it's due to dopey parents that can't control their kids, our dog is a bit fearful around kids and in the past we've had noisy little kids charge up to her as she covers and if she happened to be cornered at the time it would be very understandable for her to snap.
I still can't get my head around a parent letting their kids run off towards a strange dog be it big or small. A big dog can potentially do more damage but going by what I see when on walks, small dogs can be very inclined to want to bite

That's true, a dog thats attacking can redirect towards the person who's trying to stop the fight. I agree about parents letting their kids run up too, I've often had to ask kids not to touch my collie, or have to quickly shield her head from them as I don't trust her fully with humans either when she gets scared.

Choc Chip

Just something that occurred to me OP - if your dog is bouncing over to meet other dogs, they might not necessarily see it as friendly. I'm not sure if studies have been done on how true it is, but I've heard that other dogs can have a harder time reading the body language of brachycephalic breeds and dogs that have their tales docked.

Im not trying to suggest that this was your dog's fault, just maybe a different perspective to think about when your boy heals up and you're back out in the park with him - maybe it could provide an early warning if you're thinking that strange dogs don't necessarily see his approach as friendly and you can call him back if the other dog looks tense?

FrostyJack

david75 wrote:

Our lad is a big enough dog and either runs up to or has dogs running up to him in the park every day

david75 wrote:

I know how you feel. It's funny cos I'm in the park every day and being totally honest my dog is flaky with his recall. It's never an issue with dogs. He'll run over and they're off lead too and me and that owner do that awkward chit chat blah blah until they're bored or I tempt my guy back with a stick. Never any trouble. In 5 years in the park with him.

david75 wrote:

But it's the total disregard of other people and other peoples dogs and their safety that really gets to me.

OP you should sort yourself out before worrying about other owners and their dogs. Every day I have dogs off lead running over to my two "just to say hello" but one is super reactive and wants to eat them and the other one squirms to get away from them. The problem is exacerbated when my gf brings them, more than once she has been pulled to the ground or tangled up in leads cause the other owner is an oblivious moron. There should be a mandatory course or test to own a dog in this country.

deadlybuzzman

FrostyJack wrote: »

. There should be a mandatory course or test to own a dog in this country.

YES! If some has to chip an licence a dog then making sure they know what they're at should be mandatory too.
It might make lazy potential owners not bother getting a dog and also help reduce the levels of dopey ownership. Because we own a bulk breed we took it very seriously, did plenty of research and because of that we nipped any potential problems in the bud. Had the same dog gone to someone that wasn't even aware that you do need to learn some basics, she could have be a major handful

VonVix

If there was a mandatory course/test for dog owners in this country, it better bloody be created by experienced behaviourists/trainers, none of this BSL type crap that's made up by clueless politicians who happened to own a dog once when they were ten years old... rant over lol. But since the industry is unregulated that's a whole other problem.

Haemoglobin

A dog, regardless of breed should never be left off leash unless they are properly trained with a rock solid recall and manners. End of.

deadlybuzzman

Haemoglobin wrote: »

A dog, regardless of breed should never be left off leash unless they are properly trained with a rock solid recall and manners. End of.

Exactly. Even if ours wasn't an RB I'd never have her off leash in public because
1. Her bounding up to people is seriously inconsiderate, How do I know that person isn't terrified of dogs particularly bigger dogs.

2. Ive no idea how the other dog will react. The dog might be badly socialised and dog aggressive or it might be afraid and be a fear biter

It's only common sense to not put your dog in harms way and to not be a dick

Ms Doubtfire1

I'm going to try and respond to the OPs initial questions..what recourse:

Do you have any idea who the owner is?
If yes, make contact and see if he is willing to fund the vet bill.
If not, it's a civil case but chances are small it will ever be heard.

re mastiff:
I would almost think you are dealing with pre-seizure aggression, which is fairly common in mastiffs.If you do know the owner, ask him.
Good luck

Bandana boy

I am wondering if owners now should need a licence to Own a dog with a test before they can be issued with one.

On Sunday while walking in the Phoneix park with my mutt a very young and exuberant GSD Husky cross came flying up to my Dog.

His name was Jasper I think , He started worrying my dog trying to dominate him , I looked around for his owner and she was so at least 500 meters away.

When every Myself and Dell tried to walk away he would jump on Dell and push him to the ground mouthing at his ears.

I stopped and managed to calm both Dogs down , but had to wait for owner to arrive before we could continue with our walk, she called his name from a good way out but he paid her no attention.

I have a long experience with dogs and in particular with GSD and could see this was him being playful rather than particularly aggressive, but such a big dog especially with those crazy Husky eyes , could easily have freaked out another owner. And my dog who is 13 and not as interested in this kind of playing was close to reacting.

When the owner finally arrived which was close to 5 mins , I said you cant have a dog with no recall off the lead , and she just replied he usually listens to me, before walking off.

Dog was off leash ,I would guess intact , un-muzzled with no recall. My read was that this lady knew nothing about training a dog and I doubt even on lead she could have controlled him if something went down.

Surely there is a simple test of the owner can be done before letting them out in the world with any Dog , never mind a large restricted breed cross.

This was such a beautiful dog and with the right training and socializing I would expect be a wonderful dog to have around.