Life in the Federation in the 24th Century

Indricotherium

The Federation

The first view of the Federation is The Original Series, set in the 23rd Century.

This is at a time when the Federation was expanding at an incredible rate. Colonising planets and assimilating cultures with enormous appetite. There was always more, always more ships to be built, crews to go missing, colonies to be established and cultures to be eradicated/homogenised/assimilated.

Our next insight is in the 24th Century. The galactic stage is somewhat different in this time, The Federation has pushed up against neighbouring galactic nations that have a parity of technology, organisation and power. The constant expansionism that characterised The Original Series has been checked, and this outlet for the Federations socialist no-money economy is gone.

Without this vent to occupy ambitious military officers, the period is littered with attempted military coups, as well as rogue military intervention in the legal and civic affairs of other nations, as well as a powerful secret service that operates both within and outside the Federations borders. The Federation also mires itself in a series of petty border wars with it's neighbours.

What do people do for work in the 24th Century?

I will just discuss one type of job / work that we have a useful view of in the series.

In the 23rd Century cargo ships seem to be of modular, and standardised design.

Facilities such as Deep Space Station K9 can be seen to be designed around this modular system. They are efficient, they resemble modern super-ports such as Rotterdam.

However, by the time we get to the 24th century, these ultra efficient cargo depots have been replaced by what seem to be sports-hall sized rooms with high ceilings that have a variety of assorted barrels and boxes in them.

A society that has 'sensors' capable of distinguishing between species indoors / underground, from orbit as well as computers capable or disassembling / reassembling living things at a molecular level, nonetheless performs stock takes by hand.

Not only that, but senior officers (from the same cadre that are so fond of the coup attempts), seem to delight in assigning these menial tasks to underlings.

Is this what life in the Federations no-money socialist economy is like?

Inane make-work, with systems designed to make it more complicated that it need to be. Simple efficiencies like containerised cargo, done away with for the sake of total employment?

What would it ne like to work in a hellish state like this? I for one would hate it. Not if I were a member of the elite that the shows tend to focus on, but if I were just an ordinary Joe, licking stamps in a Federation office building I don't think I'd enjoy it.

Rawr

This is something I have always wondered about in Star Trek, and I've often felt that although TNG-era series sometimes delve into the everyday life of regular non-Starfleet folk...it's usually very superficial and poorly explained.

If I understand right, the internal economy of the Federation (and I am assuming all Federation worlds are like this, not just Earth) is based on a cash-less society where people do whatever they feel is best for the common good. The main idea being that you are not motivated by the pursuit of money, nor are you burdened by it.

Although on the face of it, this sounds pretty good. Just do the job you want to do, simply because you want to, and not have to worry about paying for your home, food, entertainment, etc...

But straight away there is a problem there. Assuming that future society was good enough to motivate people into fulfilling their potential with the best job for them, and also assuming that Federartion worlds have endlessly renewable energy sources...things still cost something.

No matter what kind of product or service you make, there is always a material cost of some kind, be it work-hours or raw materials. Without currency, how are these things valued? Even if they are doing their job for "free", effort is still expended to create the materials and to put in the hours. As we all know in today's society, some are better at this than others, so there would be a disproportion of effort expended across the world, with the end-result being the same for everyone. Without effort being valued (in our world we do this with wages), the motivation to do better is kind of gone. Even with the much mentioned phrase "working for the betterment of all humanity", that would eventually ring hollow if all your efforts were not better rewarded than the guy in your department who does next-to-nothing.

This also brings up questions regarding housing. Do all +7 Billion people on Earth get the same kind of house? We can't be worrying about mortgages in a cash-less society, thus the houses must have been assigned for free. Therefore, all houses are council houses, assigned based on need. That means that Kirk's swanky apartment featured in the films, kind of makes sense if it is a one-bedroom apartment. Just the right size for one guy. However, later on he has a large ranch that he shares with a girlfriend? So how does this work? Are people means tested for larger houses...unless you are a retired Starfleet officer, where you get whatever you want?

And there's the final question. Are you a *better* Federation citizen if you have served in Star Fleet? I can't help but wonder if the United Federation of Planets as more than a little in common with the Citizen's Federation from 'Starship Troopers'. Citizenship isn't really counted until you join the army.

There is a lot to consider, but until this is explored better in cannon, the Federation does seem to be very much like a milder space-aged version of the Kymer Rouge's Cambodia, where the state presses you into work and give you little choice in the matter unless you choose to join their Star Fleet.

A lot of dark stuff there :eek:

helimachoptor

also how is trade done.

iirc correctly harry kim is being swindled by Quark for X bars of latinum.. how can he buy something when he doesnt earn anything

Indricotherium

It seems that real property very much still exists in the 23rd / 24th century.

However teh examples we see, the Kirk Ranch, and Picard Vineyard, both appear to be inherited. Without any sort of money system, it's hard to imagine a mechanism for the transfer of property.

To me this hints at a very sinister caste system, where property owners are locked in by virtue of birth, and lower caste members are locked out. We have brief insights into how the elite caste maintain their position as land owners, with the Picard family. The eldest brother inherits and the younger siblings are packed off to military service. We see the effects of the Picard dynasty coming perilously close to extinction on Jean-Luc in Generations.

The knock on effect of this is of course the Federations constant expansionism. With hunger and disease a thing of the past, the population must be absolutely burgeoning. Where will they go??

In the 23rd century there were vast starscapes of planet-nullias, with only a few pesky locals in the way, but by the 24th century the federation is right up against peer empires and this isn't an option .... cue multiple coup attempts and petty border wars.

Towards the end of DS9 Sisko, who has been playing the role of a Bajoran god, the Federation "administrator" for the Bajoran sector has started planning to build a mansion on Bajor. This would seem to be the only way a lowly cooks son can rise to land ownership in the federation .... lands in colonies they have subdued being awarded to them.

Rawr

helimachoptor wrote: »

also how is trade done.

iirc correctly harry kim is being swindled by Quark for X bars of latinum.. how can he buy something when he doesnt earn anything

This was a regular contradiction in DS9. The apparently cash-less Starfleet officers somehow had a means of credit which they often used in Quark's Bar and other places on the Promenade.

With Gold-Pressed Latinum introduced we also had a sort of universal currency, with denominations in Slips, Strips, Bars, and Bricks used to encase measurements of a precious fluid what was probably impossible to replicate (unlike gold, which is essentially worthless by this time). Surprisingly, the Federation seems to have access to its own supply of Latinum credit, which I'm guessing is doled out to Star Fleet members as a form of "Shore-Leave Allowance".

But this raises a lot of questions about how the Federation earns Latinum, and how trade from Federation to non-Federation economies work. Could it be that all business in the Federation is nationalized? If so, does that also mean that the efforts of Inter-Galactic civilian traders ultimately end up in the pockets of Star Fleet? Do the civilian traders (such as Kasidy Yates) get any of that cash for their own use, or is it all taxed away to the State? And what about the civilans who wish to travel outside of the Federation? Do they also receive latinum as spending money?

So as I said, many questions

The_Valeyard

It could be that every Federation citizen is paid a basic income. But this happens to be quiet generous, since money driven goals are not the driving force behind humans Of The 24th century.

Indricotherium

The_Valeyard wrote: »

It could be that every Federation citizen is paid a basic income. But this happens to be quiet generous, since money driven goals are not the driving force behind humans Of The 24th century.

That's what it seems like watching DS9, but again and again we're told that it is a money free economy.

Food and housing are completely free, so how are they assigned/dished out.

We know that the population of earth is significantly higher than it is now, even allowing for technology allowing what is now marginal land unable to support much of a population density such as the Sahara or Connaught, some must be better than others.

For example the Picard vineyard is huge and in France. They do seem to own it. I can't see how they would get it other than passing it through generations

Myrddin

Indricotherium wrote: »

That's what it seems like watching DS9, but again and again we're told that it is a money free economy.

The station is filled with non Federation traders, how on Earth would money free economy work there? Similarly, Bajor isn't part of the Federation and presumably has a functioning economy. The officers & crew on DS9 have money, they just use it to live on the station...they're not motivated by it, nor do they technically need it.

Food and housing are completely free, so how are they assigned/dished out.

Food is replicated, don't houses have their own replicators? Presumably these work exactly like they do on a ship, by recycling matter. As for housing, who knows...it's not explained in canon, but I assume you can live/build a house wherever you want to...maybe within certain limits like proximity to the next house etc. Replicated material, recycled material, the cost/value of housing would be almost valueless. You could speculate all day long, but just because it isn't explained in canon, doesn't mean the things you suggest.

We know that the population of earth is significantly higher than it is now, even allowing for technology allowing what is now marginal land unable to support much of a population density such as the Sahara or Connaught, some must be better than others.

Currently we have population density in high spikes because of our economy, being close to work, being close to schools, being close to this & that. These desirable locations are just that, because they offer convenience, and make a nice place to live. But what if say, there was a device that could 'beam' you to wherever you wanted to go in a split second. Suddenly location location location loses it's meaning. A more spread out social topography too would allow people to live in more spread out, 'rural' areas...because not everyone works in the city centers anymore. Further, weather modification systems like we've seen in canon would likely be used to make harsh environments on Earth more habitable...further allowing an even distribution of the populace.

For example the Picard vineyard is huge and in France. They do seem to own it. I can't see how they would get it other than passing it through generations

Maybe they built it there because there was nothing in that space beforehand, much like Sisko built his house on Bajor. Who knows.

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

The station is filled with non Federation traders, how on Earth would money free economy work there? Similarly, Bajor isn't part of the Federation and presumably has a functioning economy.

This is exactly the issue.

All of the federation's peer states seem to have functioning, easily understandable economies, but the federation doesn't. How does it work?

All that is given on screen is airy "higher motivation" craic (which is shown up as not true again and again), the mechanics of how it works are to be speculated on by fans.

On replicating:

There is obviously some sort of cost to replicating basics like food but it seems to be almost negligible in ordinary situations. It only seems to be rationed in the most extreme of situations (trapped in delta quadrant / months long Dominion siege)

Obviously having base cost for basic materials pulled out from under the economy would have huge implications.

But the no-money economy would seem to predate replicators. Kirk is clearly baffled by money in ST IV, it clearly hasn't been a thing during his lifetime, and there are no replicators in TOS.

degrassinoel

The_Valeyard wrote: »

It could be that every Federation citizen is paid a basic income. But this happens to be quiet generous, since money driven goals are not the driving force behind humans Of The 24th century.

I was thinking along the lines of replicator and power allowances - ie: you get three standard size meals a day and 8 litres of potable water, and enough time in a sonic shower to maintain a reasonable level of hygiene. Anyway.. after that, you pay your own way through whatever means - the federation could give a specific power salary for use of transporters, holodecks, replicators, or if requested - slips of gold-pressed latinum. Tbh ye could sell your replicated stuff too - pretty sure you can replicate pretty much anything anyway - though they do vary in size

But i suppose what GR was thinking is that because it's so difficult for us to believe in a system without currency, is exactly why we cant figure out how they can make it work, nor why it's never really explained fully in the shows/films.

Myrddin

degrassinoel wrote: »

But i suppose what GR was thinking is that because it's so difficult for us to believe in a system without currency, is exactly why we cant figure out how they can make it work, nor why it's never really explained fully in the shows/films.

Precisely...it's such a departure from what we know, that we've a hard time understanding it. For me, it works without imposing on the people that live within it, somehow It's not going to happen any time soon, certainly not by the 24th century, but maybe...someday....and that's the whole point.

Indricotherium

degrassinoel wrote: »

I was thinking along the lines of replicator and power allowances - ie: you get three standard size meals a day and 8 litres of potable water, and enough time in a sonic shower to maintain a reasonable level of hygiene. Anyway.. after that, you pay your own way through whatever means - the federation could give a specific power salary for use of ...
.

But that's just money?

degrassinoel

Indricotherium wrote: »

But that's just money?

which part? all of it? xD

DubTony

I think the economics was never addressed in any detail because it's not that difficult to imagine at all. Several episodes of DS9 featured Sisko's fathers restaurant where nobody ever paid for a meal. I never thought much about the economics of the whole thing until I noticed that. Tom Paris states in one episode that "money went the way of the dinosaur" in the late 22nd century, and the issue was "addressed" in a conversation between Jake Sisko and Nog where Nog slagged off Jake for not having money while Jake told him that humans didn't have money because life was about better things (or words to that effect).

So it has to be assumed that after poverty was wiped out in the early 22nd century, a philosophy grew that negated the need for money by the end of that century (that's too short a time period for it to be possible imo). It wouldn't stop economics from functioning. Given that Earth and many other federation planets would have lots of raw materials, there wouldn't be any difficulty in selling to other species for money, and using that money to deal with other different species. It simply wasn't used within the federation where everyone, supposedly, does what they do for the betterment of the species.

The mechanics of that are simple. You have some land that you want to give up for the betterment, he has the raw materials needed to build houses and she has the skills required. As somebody builds a house for anybody, a guy in the next country provides food for anyone, because he's happy to - for the betterment. And because somebody somewhere else wants to make televisions and cars because he can, he does it and gives them away with the knowledge that his products will make people happy. Trading time and materials for the benefit of others would be the key, along with wiping out a desire to own lots of stuff.

It's UTOPIA. Not that hard to figure out.

Would it work? Not without a major change in our thinking. But you have to assume that after a third world war, and the eradication of poverty and starvation, people might actually come to believe that there might be a better option than the rat race.

Indricotherium

DubTony wrote: »

I think the economics was never addressed in any detail because it's not that difficult to imagine at all. Several episodes of DS9 featured Sisko's fathers restaurant where nobody ever paid for a meal. I never thought much about the economics of the whole thing until I noticed that. Tom Paris states in one episode that "money went the way of the dinosaur" in the late 22nd century, and the issue was "addressed" in a conversation between Jake Sisko and Nog where Nog slagged off Jake for not having money while Jake told him that humans didn't have money because life was about better things (or words to that effect).

So it has to be assumed that after poverty was wiped out in the early 22nd century, a philosophy grew that negated the need for money by the end of that century (that's too short a time period for it to be possible imo). It wouldn't stop economics from functioning. Given that Earth and many other federation planets would have lots of raw materials, there wouldn't be any difficulty in selling to other species for money, and using that money to deal with other different species. It simply wasn't used within the federation where everyone, supposedly, does what they do for the betterment of the species.

The mechanics of that are simple. You have some land that you want to give up for the betterment, he has the raw materials needed to build houses and she has the skills required. As somebody builds a house for anybody, a guy in the next country provides food for anyone, because he's happy to - for the betterment. And because somebody somewhere else wants to make televisions and cars because he can, he does it and gives them away with the knowledge that his products will make people happy. Trading time and materials for the benefit of others would be the key, along with wiping out a desire to own lots of stuff.

It's UTOPIA. Not that hard to figure out.

Would it work? Not without a major change in our thinking. But you have to assume that after a third world war, and the eradication of poverty and starvation, people might actually come to believe that there might be a better option than the rat race.

I want a massive vineyard in prime grape country in France.

DubTony

Indricotherium wrote: »

I want a massive vineyard in prime grape country in France.

TSK! See? You just ruined everything.

Indricotherium

DubTony wrote: »

TSK! See? You just ruined everything.

But that's the problem. If I want that in st world then there is no way at all to get it.

degrassinoel

Indricotherium wrote: »

But that's the problem. If I want that in st world then there is no way at all to get it.

Ye could always marry Jean Luc

Indricotherium

degrassinoel wrote: »

Ye could always marry Jean Luc

His dynasty is in need of an heir I'd be no use.

degrassinoel

Indricotherium wrote: »

His dynasty is in need of an heir I'd be no use.

ah come on now, sure he'd leave ye as much as his sister in law in the will, then ye could marry her

Indricotherium

Indricotherium wrote: »

I want a massive vineyard in prime grape country in France.

Why do you need it in France, when our climate system can give it to you in Ireland?

Your issue is that you want at the expense of others, and project your primitive nature on others

DubTony

Indricotherium wrote: »

But that's the problem. If I want that in st world then there is no way at all to get it.

But in the Utopian world, you'll have been brought up to want just the improvement of the species. You won't care about "wanting a vineyard". Taking early 21st century values and trying to put them into Roddenberry's vision doesn't work.

degrassinoel

Unless you've been in a cryostasis for a few hundred years like those three from TNG's The Neutral Zone episode

Evade

degrassinoel wrote: »

Unless you've been in a cryostasis for a few hundred years like those three from TNG's The Neutral Zone episode

Or you're from Turkana IV, the failed Federation colony where rape gangs are a common occurance.

Star Trek economics is like warp drive, it only works because the script says it does.

Myrddin

Evade wrote: »

Or you're from Turkana IV, the failed Federation colony where rape gangs are a common occurance.

Very odd that the all conquering, evil, malevolent Federation would allow a planet to declare its independence like Turkano IV did...no doubt it had no natural resources left...or something...

Evade

Myrddin wrote: »

Very odd that the all conquering, evil, malevolent Federation would allow a planet to declare its independence like Turkano IV did...no doubt it had no natural resources left...or something...

It could have been an intentional failure. All the undesirables and malcontents in the Federation were encouraged to colonise this lovely new planet and when it went to hell the Federation just nonchalantly shrugged its shoulders and thought well it's not my problem any more.

Myrddin

Evade wrote: »

It could have been an intentional failure. All the undesirables and malcontents in the Federation were encouraged to colonise this lovely new planet and when it went to hell the Federation just nonchalantly shrugged its shoulders and thought well it's not my problem any more.

Dear god....now there's two of them...

Myrddin

And before anyone thinks of referencing Nimbus III, please, consider your own dignity before doing so

Turkana IV could have went to pot for many reasons, it could have been flying spaghetti monsters for all we know...all we know is the government broke down in the early 24th century, and by the mid 24th century, it had broken away from and ceased contact with the Federation. Anything else is speculation. What we do know for a fact though, is the Federation didn't behave like the all conquering menace that certain folks make them out to be...but lets gloss over that shall we, or explain it away with some made up stuff.

Evade

That was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.

Myrddin

Evade wrote: »

That was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.

You're redeemed

Indricotherium

Myrddin wrote: »

And before anyone thinks of referencing Nimbus III, please, consider your own dignity before doing so

Turkana IV could have went to pot for many reasons, it could have been flying spaghetti monsters for all we know...all we know is the government broke down in the early 24th century, and by the mid 24th century, it had broken away from and ceased contact with the Federation. Anything else is speculation. What we do know for a fact though, is the Federation didn't behave like the all conquering menace that certain folks make them out to be...but lets gloss over that shall we, or explain it away with some made up stuff.

The possibilities are literally endless. Since there is no explanation given anything that doesn't contradict canon is as valid as anything else.

Section 31 recruiting planet. Only the strongest would get to the top there.

Indricotherium

Indricotherium wrote: »

The possibilities are literally endless. Since there is no explanation given anything that doesn't contradict canon is as valid as anything else.

Section 31 recruiting planet. Only the strongest would get to the top there.

Except, you are again going against all stated ideals and verifiable living conditions both stated by creator and cast, and on screen.

Based on all presented evidence I actually don't think that you believe a thing about what you are posting. You're looking for a reaction I feel

Owryan

I could never understand why on DS9 starfleet personnel would pay for stuff in Quarks that they could replicate for free.

Indricotherium

Owryan wrote: »

I could never understand why on DS9 starfleet personnel would pay for stuff in Quarks that they could replicate for free.

You can't replicate Vulcan love slaves 2.

Myrddin

Owryan wrote: »

I could never understand why on DS9 starfleet personnel would pay for stuff in Quarks that they could replicate for free.

Perhaps Quark's replicator has an array of beverages that you can't get from the replicator in your quarters? Plus, real alcohol if you like Not that synthale rubbish!

Indricotherium wrote: »

You can't replicate Vulcan love slaves 2.

I know a certain Lieutenant who'd likely be able to...

The_Valeyard

Indricotherium wrote: »

You can't replicate Vulcan love slaves 2.

Why the datarod too sticky? :P

Rawr

Indricotherium wrote: »

You can't replicate Vulcan love slaves 2.

Nor can you replicate the danky atmosphere and or social feel of a bar. Quark's makes about as much sense as Ten Forward. You can just replicate whatever you want and go sit alone in your quarters, or you can go out and be with friends. Quark's makes a little more sense than Ten Forward since he stocks real booze, and his replicators probably also make real booze too (None of this 'synthohol' nonsense).

You've also got the Replimat, which appears to be free to use. However, not far away you also have a Klingon Take-away / Resturant (which I guess is the 24th Century equivalent of going for a 'Chinese'), which isn't free and charges in mysterious 'coins' (Klingon cash?). I guessing the appeal is the 'real live' ingredients of the cuisine, which just can't be replicated.

So I guess if you want to live a little on DS9, you really need some cash in your pocket.

helimachoptor

just replicate the cash...

ScumLord

I think star trek would work better if the federation was basically just the NATO of the future. It's too all encompassing at the moment. YOu don't really send starships armed to the teeth out to study ice sheets. You'd have made a ship that carries a lot of redundant crew.

We also don't really see space colonies, the "scientists" are very willing to contaminate brand new ecosystems just to have a closer look. What happened to automation? Why are people doing the jobs that computers do today.

Even with peace on earth and wealth allowing people to have smaller families there should still be a population crisis on earth that would force some sort of competition for housing. Many cities would still have the problem of more people wanting to live there than there are places to accommodate them.

I think a more realistic view of the future is that starships will actually be space cities. These space cities will move in a widely dispersed convoy studying solar systems on the way, they'll build new cities as the need arises because manufacturing of pretty much everything will be completely automated. Space colonies like these have no need for money. Everything can be produced on demand using materials they find along the way. The only stipulation would be the amount of stuff you're allowed to have at one time. So if you've met your allocation of stuff you'd have to send something back for recycling of equivalent mass before you can get something else. I'm thinking of furniture in this example.

Earth would become a protected planet, you can leave but anyone that wasn't born on the planet would have no chance of being given residence. It would allow visitors but it would be like trying to get into a more protected version of Australia.

You would send heavily armed ships for exploration to be fair.
Federation has lightly armored science vessels like the Oberth and Nova classes.

Earth population would be a hassle but they can terraform deserts etc, currently inaccessible to us and they were going under sea in the episodes after BoBW. The inner city buildings also look absolutely massive

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

Earth population would be a hassle but they can terraform deserts etc, currently inaccessible to us and they were going under sea in the episodes after BoBW. The inner city buildings also look absolutely massive

Not to mention Mars, Luna, and all those majority human colonies scattered around the Federation.

ScumLord

Deleted User wrote: »

You would send heavily armed ships for exploration to be fair.
Federation has lightly armored science vessels like the Oberth and Nova classes.

Earth population would be a hassle but they can terraform deserts etc, currently inaccessible to us and they were going under sea in the episodes after BoBW. The inner city buildings also look absolutely massive

I don't think they would terraform desserts. Especially if you can send the excess population off planet. At the moment we see earth as usable land and resources. Living in space would mean we wouldn't have to do any mining on earth. Even the production of synthetic meat could be done in space. Earth in it's entirety would become protected. Once people left an area it would be allowed to go wild again. Desserts are an ecosystem, I'd hope by that stage we'd have learned that just because an ecosystem hasn't any obvious immediate value to humans that it still has a right to exist.


I also don't think any scientist would want to go around terraforming other planets, or even earth. It would be sacrilege to most as it would mean destroying whatever local ecosystem might be there so people can have homes. Plus, if you can knock out space faring cities automatically then there's really no need to be going down to any inhospitable planets. It would be easier in the long run once production was done in space to live there rather than try and make do on a planet like mars.

If they do find other planets worth studying they'd either leave one of the space cities behind, or more likely build a purpose built facility and a selection of people from the convoy would decide whether or not they want to stay there or keep going. I think they'd probably spend years in orbit studying from a distance or through robots. The risk of contamination from sending biological life down would be pretty high.

Indricotherium

Evade wrote: »

Not to mention Mars, Luna, and all those majority human colonies scattered around the Federation.

But still, how do you get a house in Ireland if that is what you want? And if you go to a colony, it seems your property rights are very loose. The Federation has established a pattern of abandoning colonies.

Examples:

Turkana 4, where the colony was abandoned to anarchy.

The Colonies along the Cardassian border where a displaced population had tried to start again.

Tau Cygna 5, where the colony where again the colony was displaced, to suit wider political whims of the Federation.

IvySlayer

Indricotherium wrote: »

But still, how do you get a house in Ireland if that is what you want?

They send you to a planet that looks like Ireland along with a candle ghost

IvySlayer

How property works in the Federation we will never know

Captain Picard and his family had a huge vineyard, Siskos had the restaurant etc

Numerous references of federation credit though.

I imagine food, medicine, clothing, energy, basic accommodation, transporters, education are all provided by the Federation with credits as the only currency

Evade

Indricotherium wrote: »

But still, how do you get a house in Ireland if that is what you want?

If you want to live in Ireland because of the culture etc there could be colonies that are essentially Ireland on another planet but really we've hit the wall of how do you x without a money based economy again.

Indricotherium wrote: »

And if you go to a colony, it seems your property rights are very loose. The Federation has established a pattern of abandoning colonies.

Examples:

Turkana 4, where the colony was abandoned to anarchy.

The Colonies along the Cardassian border where a displaced population had tried to start again.

Tau Cygna 5, where the colony where again the colony was displaced, to suit wider political whims of the Federation.

Turkana IV sounded more like a secession from the Federation and Tau Cygna V was technically part of another state.

ScumLord

IvySlayer wrote: »

How property works in the Federation we will never know

Captain Picard and his family had a huge vineyard, Siskos had the restaurant etc

Numerous references of federation credit though.

I imagine food, medicine, clothing, energy, basic accommodation, transporters, education are all provided by the Federation with credits as the only currency

New manufacturing techniques that are being developed today, like highspeed 3d printing (although at this stage it could probably be called 3D forming, it's moved on from printing already), will mean that advanced manufacturing can happen on a much smaller scale. Big business will find it difficult to operate in a world where mass production is no longer the cheapest option.

The big issue on earth is resources, they're limited and getting more expensive by the day. In space resources are abundant and easy to access. That will be the real turning point. Want some iron, pull up to an asteroid and take what you need. Our current economy just won't work when manufacturing can be done by anyone and resources are so abundant and easily accessible that anyone can just cut out the middle man and take what they need direct from the source.

In space we could just make a machine that spits out spaceships capable of housing thousands of people at very little human cost.

Myrddin

Evade wrote: »

Turkana IV sounded more like a secession from the Federation and Tau Cygna V was technically part of another state.

It was a cessation of contact on Turkana's part, but to be fair, perhaps the Federation should have stepped in and sorted the political issues before it got to that point. It's not stated in canon that they did, and if they did and the colony still wanted its independence, then fair enough.

Evade

Myrddin wrote: »

It was a cessation of contact on Turkana's part, but to be fair, perhaps the Federation should have stepped in and sorted the political issues before it got to that point. It's not stated in canon that they did, and if they did and the colony still wanted its independence, then fair enough.

One of the faction leaders does say he doesn't want the Federation there in Legacy.

Myrddin

Evade wrote: »

One of the faction leaders does say he doesn't want the Federation there in Legacy.

That's post-breakdown though. I think Indricotherium's point is that the breakdown of the political system shouldn't have been allowed to happen in the first place, and as such, they were essentially abandoned. This might explain the hostility directed by them toward the Federation, which we later seen in Legacy. Interesting reading on the planet - http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Turkana_IV

Evade

Myrddin wrote: »

That's post-breakdown though. I think Indricotherium's point is that the breakdown of the political system shouldn't have been allowed to happen in the first place, and as such, they were essentially abandoned. This might explain the hostility directed by them toward the Federation, which we later seen in Legacy. Interesting reading on the planet - http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Turkana_IV

Assuming of course that the political unrest wasn't caused by secessionists.