Arsenal Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2016/2017

mansize

Cech is passed it

peteeeed

Ol' Donie wrote: »

What? Bellerin can't see Alonso. Alonso can see Bellerin.

So it's Bellerin's fault?

Get the hell outta here with that b*llocks.

no you go for the ball , eyes on it, win the header , score a goal , kind of how football works

Quazzie

peteeeed wrote: »

no you go for the ball , eyes on it, win the header , score a goal , kind of how football works

Even if it means taking someone out of it with an elbow to the head?

peteeeed

Quazzie wrote: »

Even if it means taking someone out of it with an elbow to the head?

how can you jump for a ball if you don't spring ? BBC ,SKY, BT all looked at it and said no foul. it's totally unfortunate that Bellerin got injured but do you want a non contact sport , you cant make your arms disappear when you jump , Bellerin lost the header to costa then was running backwards , alonso was coming forwards , alonso jumped higher

GavRedKing

Just on Cech, taking nothing away from Hazard initial run, I think he was very poor for the goal, the shot wasnt the best and was far from unstoppable.

In the first half too, Costa went passed Kos and hit a ball into the side net at the near post, the ball was in the side netting before Cech was down, its something he was poor at Chelsea for awhile and that was guarding his near post and getting caught there down low. Maybe hes expecting the player to go across goal, that what most players would do but sometimes a ball is flashed in at the near post and its where Cech has got caught out before.

Thats also before you mention the pass to Cesc under little pressure and with an out ball to Giroud up the pitch but every GK makes those mistkaes, Courtois had one in the first half when he gave it to Iwobi (i think).

domrush

What are the opinions on Leonardo Jardim as Wenger's replacement?

I think there's no question he would take the job.

He's performed well at CL level with both Olympiakos and Monaco. He's got Monaco playing some serious football this year, and it would be fitting to get Wenger's replacement from Monaco. 68 goals already this season, 23 more than PSG who are in second. Only conceded 22 as well. Did well at Sporting with a team full of kids too.

Dolph Starbeam

Whether it was a foul or not I still wouldn't be blaming Cech or Bellerin for the goal, Kos was pulled out to the wing and he gave them too much time to get the cross in. Cech couldn't have got off the ground much quicker imo and Bellerin was never going to win in the air against Alonso who had the run on him.

Coq and Kos, again, were really poor for Hazards goal too. Coq getting knocked off the ball like that was embarrassing.

We started the game well and looked to take it to Chelsea, bad timing for the first goal but we still kept at it. Gabriel really should have taken his chance, it was on a plate for him.

Only real positive in my eyes was Iwobi when he moved into the middle in a free role, he has turned into a good player.

grumpymunster

I must have seen a different incident as the only one going for the ball was Alonso, if it had not been a goal then for me it was a penalty.

Quazzie

peteeeed wrote: »

how can you jump for a ball if you don't spring ? BBC ,SKY, BT all looked at it and said no foul. it's totally unfortunate that Bellerin got injured but do you want a non contact sport , you cant make your arms disappear when you jump , Bellerin lost the header to costa then was running backwards , alonso was coming forwards , alonso jumped higher

You spring with your legs, now with your arms.

peteeeed

Quazzie wrote: »

You spring with your legs, now with your arms.

right haha

KaiserGunner

grumpymunster wrote: »

I must have seen a different incident as the only one going for the ball was Alonso, if it had not been a goal then for me it was a penalty.

Danny Mills is that you??

Dolph Starbeam

peteeeed wrote: »

right haha

Everyone knows you need to use your arms when going for a header, mostly for protection, the problem with Alonso was that he led with his arm. He didn't lead with an elbow but his arms still caught Bellerin before he headed the ball.

Even though every analyst and ex referee has said no foul surely technically it would be considered a foul? I don't blame the ref at all though as it was a very tough call, I've seen it a hundred times now and I still don't know what to think.

GavRedKing

Dolph Starbeam wrote: »

Everyone knows you need to use your arms when going for a header, mostly for protection, the problem with Alonso was that he led with his arm. He didn't lead with an elbow but his arms still caught Bellerin before he headed the ball.

Even though every analyst and ex referee has said no foul surely technically it would be considered a foul? I don't blame the ref at all though as it was a very tough call, I've seen it a hundred times now and I still don't know what to think.

You've got your answer.

Look at the Arsenal players reaction or lack thereof.

It was a coming together of two players trying to win the ball.

peteeeed

Dolph Starbeam wrote: »

Everyone knows you need to use your arms when going for a header, mostly for protection, the problem with Alonso was that he led with his arm. He didn't lead with an elbow but his arms still caught Bellerin before he headed the ball.

Even though every analyst and ex referee has said no foul surely technically it would be considered a foul? I don't blame the ref at all though as it was a very tough call, I've seen it a hundred times now and I still don't know what to think.

yes but bellarin was running backwards , alonso running forwards both looking at the ball . if alonso at any stage looked at Bellerin i would say it was a foul but he didn't , alonso got up earlier and won the ball , Bellerin tried to jump which when you are going backwards is nearly impossible hence he got beaten to the ball and unfortunately got injured hitting the ground

Dolph Starbeam

GavRedKing wrote: »

You've got your answer.

Look at the Arsenal players reaction or lack thereof.

It was a coming together of two players trying to win the ball.

I think that might be because during play nobody would have seen Alonso make contact with Bellerin before heading the ball.

peteeeed wrote: »

yes but bellarin was running backwards , alonso running forwards both looking at the ball . if alonso at any stage looked at Bellerin i would say it was a foul but he didn't , alonso got up earlier and won the ball , Bellerin tried to jump which when you are going backwards is nearly impossible hence he got beaten to the ball and unfortunately got injured hitting the ground

No doubt that Alonso wasn't trying to commit a foul, I am still on the fence over whether it was or not. My only question would be can Alonso make contact with Bellerin's head with his arms before he makes contact with the ball?

What's done is done and I won't lose any sleep over it, but it was a strange incident.

GavRedKing

Its also impossible for the ref to see any contact, his view is that of Alonsos back at the edge of the box looking in.

greendom

peteeeed wrote: »

yes but bellarin was running backwards , alonso running forwards both looking at the ball . if alonso at any stage looked at Bellerin i would say it was a foul but he didn't , alonso got up earlier and won the ball , Bellerin tried to jump which when you are going backwards is nearly impossible hence he got beaten to the ball and unfortunately got injured hitting the ground

There doesn't have to be intent for it to be a foul. I would suggest that clattering someone with an elbow forcing them out of consciousness should be considered reckless, regardless of intent.

Ol' Donie

greendom wrote: »

There doesn't have to be intent for it to be a foul. I would suggest that clattering someone with an elbow forcing them out of consciousness should be considered reckless, regardless of intent.

Of course it is. It's dangerous play.

grumpymunster

greendom wrote: »

There doesn't have to be intent for it to be a foul. I would suggest that clattering someone with an elbow forcing them out of consciousness should be considered reckless, regardless of intent.

Ryan Mason was seriously injured going to head a ball by colliding with Cahill was that reckless, so really what you are saying eliminate heading the ball so as these injuries cannot happen.
Main injury seems to be when he hit the ground perhaps the surface at the Bridge is too hard?

ronjo

grumpymunster wrote: »

Ryan Mason was seriously injured going to head a ball by colliding with Cahill was that reckless, so really what you are saying eliminate heading the ball so as these injuries cannot happen.
Main injury seems to be when he hit the ground perhaps the surface at the Bridge is too hard?

Is that not because he was unconscious from being elbowed in the head?

grumpymunster

ronjo wrote: »

Is that not because he was unconscious from being elbowed in the head?

Maybe maybe not hard to say.

It is interesting how no Arsenal player even appealed for a foul indeed one Arsenal defender tried to get Bellerin to his feet directly after.

Alonso - Bellerin 1.JPG

It was very unfortunate and I hope Bellerin has a speedy recovery but in a contact sport sometimes there is contact.

greendom

grumpymunster wrote: »

Ryan Mason was seriously injured going to head a ball by colliding with Cahill was that reckless, so really what you are saying eliminate heading the ball so as these injuries cannot happen.
Main injury seems to be when he hit the ground perhaps the surface at the Bridge is too hard?

There is a real concern about head injuries and concussion etc at the moment and this is amplified when you look at the damage caused to brains by constant heading of the ball


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1412908/Jeff-Astle-killed-by-heading-ball-coroner-rules.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-heading-a-soccer-ball-cause-brain-damage/

In another 20 years we could well see heading prohibited from football.

It goes without saying that being elbowed with force (even without intent) should be stopped and therefore punishable immediately.

GavRedKing

greendom wrote: »

There is a real concern about head injuries and concussion etc at the moment and this is amplified when you look at the damage caused to brains by constant heading of the ball


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1412908/Jeff-Astle-killed-by-heading-ball-coroner-rules.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-heading-a-soccer-ball-cause-brain-damage/

In another 20 years we could well see heading prohibited from football.

It goes without saying that being elbowed with force (even without intent) should be stopped and therefore punishable immediately.

This wasnt a Ben Thatcher incident. Theres nothing be made of it because there was nothing in other than a coming together of two players fighting for the ball, one happened to come off worse.

I'd also wonder how do you outlaw headers from the game? No more corners, free kicks, goal kicks.

Do you introduce a fair catch system like NFL for long balls, what heppens when two players or more are under a long bal, who gets the ball then?

greendom

GavRedKing wrote: »

This wasnt a Ben Thatcher incident. Theres nothing be made of it because there was nothing in other than a coming together of two players fighting for the ball, one happened to come off worse.

I'd also wonder how do you outlaw headers from the game? No more corners, free kicks, goal kicks.

Do you introduce a fair catch system like NFL for long balls, what heppens when two players or more are under a long bal, who gets the ball then?

I've no idea, I'm just pretty certain that when the weight of scientific evidence reaches a certain level, heading will be outlawed from football. It's a crucial element of the game at the moment, but that will have to change.

grumpymunster

greendom wrote: »

There is a real concern about head injuries and concussion etc at the moment and this is amplified when you look at the damage caused to brains by constant heading of the ball


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1412908/Jeff-Astle-killed-by-heading-ball-coroner-rules.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-heading-a-soccer-ball-cause-brain-damage/

In another 20 years we could well see heading prohibited from football.

It goes without saying that being elbowed with force (even without intent) should be stopped and therefore punishable immediately.

Normally when there is a coming together such as that on Saturday the game is stopped for treatment and restarted with a drop ball - in this instance the game stopped for a goal and was thus restarted with a kick off.

Heading in due course may or may not be banned by FIFA but at the moment it is within the rules of the game and I see nothing at all from Alonso's action on Saturday to warrant a free kick to Arsenal. It was a free ball in the air from a rebound off the cross bar Alonso had momentum with him as he was coming onto the ball. Bellerin was picking himself off the ground trying to disrupt Alonso's attempt at goal but he did not have momentum thus Alonso rose higher and won the header. Again IF Alonso had not scored Bellerin was guilty of foul play and that should have been a penalty.

KaiserGunner

grumpymunster wrote: »

IF Alonso had not scored Bellerin was guilty of foul play and that should have been a penalty.

Absolute rubbish imo. Fair enough if you don't think it was a foul by Alfonso, I didn't think it was a foul at the time myself, but to say that Bellerin was guilty of foul play is ludicrous.

greendom

grumpymunster wrote: »

Normally when there is a coming together such as that on Saturday the game is stopped for treatment and restarted with a drop ball - in this instance the game stopped for a goal and was thus restarted with a kick off.

Heading in due course may or may not be banned by FIFA but at the moment it is within the rules of the game and I see nothing at all from Alonso's action on Saturday to warrant a free kick to Arsenal. It was a free ball in the air from a rebound off the cross bar Alonso had momentum with him as he was coming onto the ball. Bellerin was picking himself off the ground trying to disrupt Alonso's attempt at goal but he did not have momentum thus Alonso rose higher and won the header. Again IF Alonso had not scored Bellerin was guilty of foul play and that should have been a penalty.

I have never seen a single incident of a player hitting another with his elbow (accidental or not) and play being restarted with a drop ball. Either the ref doesn't see it or the player using the elbow is sent off.

As to the recipient of the elbow being sent off - that can only happen in some other universe where the rules of football are completely different.

grumpymunster

greendom wrote: »

I have never seen a single incident of a player hitting another with his elbow (accidental or not) and play being restarted with a drop ball. Either the ref doesn't see it or the player using the elbow is sent off.

As to the recipient of the elbow being sent off - that can only happen in some other universe where the rules of football are completely different.

So now you consider that Alonso should have been sent off talk about alternative universes that is a good one

grumpymunster

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Absolute rubbish imo. Fair enough if you don't think it was a foul by Alfonso, I didn't think it was a foul at the time myself, but to say that Bellerin was guilty of foul play is ludicrous.

It is as reasonable a point as Alonso being sent off, Bellerin had no chance of winning the ball as Alonso was already in the air before he started to jump for the ball so yes in that instance he is deliberately trying to obstruct Alonso gaining clean contact on the ball so it is a foul - sadly for him he came off very much second best.

greendom

grumpymunster wrote: »

So now you consider that Alonso should have been sent off talk about alternative universes that is a good one

have you ever seen an elbow to the head resulting in a drop ball ?

I brought up alternative universes as it is as absurd as the idea that Bellerin should have been sent off had a goal not been scored.

GavRedKing

greendom wrote: »

I've no idea, I'm just pretty certain that when the weight of scientific evidence reaches a certain level, heading will be outlawed from football. It's a crucial element of the game at the moment, but that will have to change.

I think it will change at underage level maybe stop anyone U12's from going into headed chalenges, also promotes more football on the floor but I cant see the adult version ever banning heading. Clashes are common place and rarely does serious injury ever occur.

We've only got the Ryan Mason and Petr Cech incidents as life threatening incidents in the English game in the last 10 years or more that I can think of.

grumpymunster

GavRedKing wrote: »

I think it will change at underage level maybe stop anyone U12's from going into headed chalenges, also promotes more football on the floor but I cant see the adult version ever banning heading. Clashes are common place and rarely does serious injury ever occur.

We've only got the Ryan Mason and Petr Cech incidents as life threatening incidents in the English game in the last 10 years or more that I can think of.

And Petr Cech incident was not the result of heading.

grumpymunster

greendom wrote: »

have you ever seen an elbow to the head resulting in a drop ball ?

I brought up alternative universes as it is as absurd as the idea that Bellerin should have been sent off had a goal not been scored.

Where did anyone suggest that Bellerin should have been sent off I must have missed that. I certainly believe he had no chance of winning the challenge Newtons second law and all that.
Again there was no foul play by Alonso that was not even considered until Wenger was interviewed and he was looking for excuses as normal - it is never Arsenal it is generally the ref with him.

ronjo

grumpymunster wrote: »

Where did anyone suggest that Bellerin should have been sent off I must have missed that. I certainly believe he had no chance of winning the challenge Newtons second law and all that.
Again there was no foul play by Alonso that was not even considered until Wenger was interviewed and he was looking for excuses as normal - it is never Arsenal it is generally the ref with him.

You can sod off with that last comment.

GavRedKing

grumpymunster wrote: »

And Petr Cech incident was not the result of heading.

Ya, unlike Cahill or Alonso this weekend, Hunt went in to leave one on Cech.

I've never liked him since, never apologised for it either because he believed that to apologise is to show that you done something wrong, something he denies. :rolleyes:

grumpymunster

ronjo wrote: »

You can sod off with that last comment.

Ah that you cannot argue with surely Wenger is always casting doubt regarding a foul, offside whatever. He is something of a master of smoke and mirrors - and that is not a bad thing he backs his team and that is fine but that does not mean he does not do it. Against Burnley he complained it was not a penalty he complained the first goal against Watford was not a free kick and so on.

mickmackey1

GavRedKing wrote: »

Ya, unlike Cahill or Alonso this weekend, Hunt went in to leave one on Cech.

I've never liked him since, never apologised for it either because he believed that to apologise is to show that you done something wrong, something he denies. :rolleyes:

When Zlatan did Coleman earlier in the season, he not only failed to apologise but actually bragged about it. Should be the same rule for all.

DeclanRe

As an Arsenal fan - personally i didn't think it was a stonewall free to arsenal, I think they both went for it, and Alonso got higher and Bellerin got the raw end of it. If it had been the other end of the field and Bellerin had scored, we'd all be saying it was grand.
But as for the Chelsea fans in here banging on about it - ye won, walk away and enjoy the victory!

greendom

grumpymunster wrote: »

Where did anyone suggest that Bellerin should have been sent off I must have missed that. I certainly believe he had no chance of winning the challenge Newtons second law and all that.
Again there was no foul play by Alonso that was not even considered until Wenger was interviewed and he was looking for excuses as normal - it is never Arsenal it is generally the ref with him.

my vew had nothing to do with Wenger but seeing the pics of Alonso's forearm/elbow landing on Bellerin's head.

grumpymunster

Where exactly did anyone suggest Bellerin should have been sent off? Still waiting?

Quite clearly you can see Alonso way above Bellerin whats the argument. Quite clearly it was not a foul but you are not going to see that so thats fine.

Different angle different perspective you pays your money you takes your choice

Alonso - Bellerin.JPG

grumpymunster

DeclanRe wrote: »

As an Arsenal fan - personally i didn't think it was a stonewall free to arsenal, I think they both went for it, and Alonso got higher and Bellerin got the raw end of it. If it had been the other end of the field and Bellerin had scored, we'd all be saying it was grand.
But as for the Chelsea fans in here banging on about it - ye won, walk away and enjoy the victory!

Can't argue with that but banging on is a little harsh - trying to show some perspective with some earlier comments thats all.

maximoose

You can't really judge anything from either of those pics.

Watching this (especially the second angle), I can't see justification for keeping his arms up as he did. Intentional no, foul - I think so.

FixitFelix

Seriously need to let this bellerin/alonso incident go, moment has past points are gone, it's not like the result hinged on it, Arsenal would have lost the match anyway even if this hadn't of happened

Look forward to the hull match lads

Quazzie

grumpymunster wrote: »

Where exactly did anyone suggest Bellerin should have been sent off? Still waiting?

You said it should've been a penalty and is it would've been denying a clear goal scoring opportunity and would be a red card accordingly.

grumpymunster

Quazzie wrote: »

You said it should've been a penalty and is it would've been denying a clear goal scoring opportunity and would be a red card accordingly.

So quite clearly I did not suggest that Bellerin should have been sent off thank you for that clarification.

That may or may not have been the decision of the referee, for me it would have been harsh.

mansize

grumpymunster wrote: »

greendom wrote: »

There doesn't have to be intent for it to be a foul. I would suggest that clattering someone with an elbow forcing them out of consciousness should be considered reckless, regardless of intent.

Ryan Mason was seriously injured going to head a ball by colliding with Cahill was that reckless, so really what you are saying eliminate heading the ball so as these injuries cannot happen.
Main injury seems to be when he hit the ground perhaps the surface at the Bridge is too hard?

One suspects you are being vacuous

grumpymunster

mansize wrote: »

One suspects you are being vacuous

Do you how interesting, that comment seems somewhat barbarous and not something I would call a complete stranger.

greendom

grumpymunster wrote: »

Where exactly did anyone suggest Bellerin should have been sent off? Still waiting?

Quite clearly you can see Alonso way above Bellerin whats the argument. Quite clearly it was not a foul but you are not going to see that so thats fine.

Different angle different perspective you pays your money you takes your choice

Alonso - Bellerin.JPG

Apologies you wrote penalty I wrote sending off - my mistake.

The guy was knocked out cold - I really don't see why this is up for debate

greendom

grumpymunster wrote: »

Where exactly did anyone suggest Bellerin should have been sent off? Still waiting?

Quite clearly you can see Alonso way above Bellerin whats the argument. Quite clearly it was not a foul but you are not going to see that so thats fine.

Different angle different perspective you pays your money you takes your choice

Alonso - Bellerin.JPG

Well that's a crap angle at much greater distance

grumpymunster

greendom wrote: »

Apologies you wrote penalty I wrote sending off - my mistake.

The guy was knocked out cold - I really don't see why this is up for debate

No problem, heat of battle and all that

He was and it could have been very serious but thankfully it seems a full recovery will follow ( and I truly hope it does also with Ryan Mason it is only a game at the end of the day ). But for me an accident for you not but a chat which whiled away a part of the working day yay