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Stress Leave- how to handle it
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21-08-2016 2:08am#1If anyone could offer any advice or personal experience it would be much appreciated.
I've been under a lot of stress in my personal life this last few months which my manager has been aware of. I've had stressful times in my job on and off since I started there but this last while had been ok. My doctor offered to sign me off on stress leave because of what is going on in my personal life but i declined as I felt work was a good distraction and was keeping me in a good routine.
Over the last few weeks however work has been becoming more stressful again. My manager should be aware of this from informal conversations we have had in recent weeks and I had one formal conversation with my supervisor regarding the work related stress. An incident has been handled very badly by them which has really stressed me out and I feel it is definitely time for me to take some time out now.
So I was just looking for advice on where I go from here?
I know I need to see my doctor and visit the social welfare office but I'm unsure how it works in regards to my manager.
Do I just inform them that I am not coming into work and will be in contact after I talk to my doctor? When I get the sick cert do I ask the doctor to put stress, work related stress or just that I'm unfit for work? OR do I say I won't be in on Monday as the way the incident was handled has added to my stress and that I feel I need to take some time out so will be talking to my doctor?0
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Go to the doctor first.
Unless you want to think about sueing them (not recommended, when it's the personal life stress which is the major cause), just ask the doctor to put unfit for work, and not give details.0 -
I don't want to hand deliver the sick cert so is it ok to give it to a colleague to pass on or do I need to send them by registered post? I'm just worried if I send it by normal post they might say I didn't send it. I text my manager to let them know that I was signed off for the period of time that I am and that a sick note was on its way.
My manager then rang me asking me to expand on the sick note. I felt pressured so I said stress and they asked if it was work or personal related so I said both (which it is but the reason I'm off work is solely to do with the work related stress, I was coping great in work otherwise). I highlighted the incident and they tried to defend how it was handled but then said that they understood where I was coming from and they would discuss it when I came back.
They also asked if I would be back after the period on the sick note was up and I said I didn't know that I would have to see how I was feeling and for my doctor to review it nearer the time.
I'm now thinking I shouldn't have expanded on it at all, the call just took me by surprise and I'm not sure how much info I have to give them. If I am extending my sick leave is it sufficient to just deliver another sick note or do I need to contact them aswell?0 -
hdfhu hfdj wrote: »I don't want to hand deliver the sick cert so is it ok to give it to a colleague to pass on or do I need to send them by registered post?
send it by registered post dont give it to a colleague.
i will never understand why people do this, stop texting, call. keep a record of the call. ie noted, i rang manager at such a time i said this he said this.hdfhu hfdj wrote: »I'm just worried if I send it by normal post they might say I didn't send it. I text my manager to let them know that I was signed off for the period of time that I am and that a sick note was on its way.
tell him to **** off the next time its none of his business.hdfhu hfdj wrote: »My manager then rang me asking me to expand on the sick note.
his call was an ass covering exercise, i can promise you he has notes saying he called to check in to make sure you were okay after receiving a vague sick note and you advised it was nothing to do with work.hdfhu hfdj wrote: »I felt pressured so I said stress and they asked if it was work or personal related so I said both (which it is but the reason I'm off work is solely to do with the work related stress, I was coping great in work otherwise). I highlighted the incident and they tried to defend how it was handled but then said that they understood where I was coming from and they would discuss it when I came back.
again tell him to **** off the next time, your health is none of his business anymore.hdfhu hfdj wrote: »They also asked if I would be back after the period on the sick note was up and I said I didn't know that I would have to see how I was feeling and for my doctor to review it nearer the time.
you dont have to give them any info until you return to work, anxiety and stress is the same as a stomach bug in the eyes of your employer its none of his damn business and needs to be treated as something you can fix with the proper care and attention. its a poor analogy but my brain isnt on yet..hdfhu hfdj wrote: »I'm now thinking I shouldn't have expanded on it at all, the call just took me by surprise and I'm not sure how much info I have to give them.
you are handing in your notice though, so they dont need sick notes, once you hand in your notice DO NOT TAKE ANY MORE CALLS FROM YOUR MANAGER. be clear in your notice letter that you will return to work once you are capable unless it is outside the time of your notice and that you will submit GP notes if you are unable to return.hdfhu hfdj wrote: »If I am extending my sick leave is it sufficient to just deliver another sick note or do I need to contact them aswell?0 -
How long are you working there and what does your contract say about company policy on sick leave? Does it say how often certs need to be handed in, does it say that they can refer you to a company doctor/independent doctor for examination after a certain period of absence?0
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Hi - I haven't personal experience of this but sat long side somebody who fell apart mentally in front of my eyes due to work related stress. It started as work stress and quickly escalated to full blown depression. He eventually ended up in St John of Gods and to be honest it didn't need to go that far.
You need to take care of yourself mentally first and foremost.
Getting into a adversarial relationship and telling them to piss off as suggested above is the last thing you should do. It looks like you are in a fragile place at the moment, they are not, so there is only going to be one winner there.
Call you boss, explain to him what the situation is and ask him what you need to do to keep it all within the companies procedures. You might think they are busting your balls but if the procedures are there then they are for a reason. e.g. visit the company doctor etc...
TBH it doesnt matter if the stress is personal or work related, if you are not fit to work then you are not fit to work.
That said if the work place continues to cause you stress then you should consider moving on.
All the best and remember to put your mental health above all else0 -
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Hi OP
I can empathise fully with how you feel. I was in the same situation at work, stress in my personal life due to bereavement of sibling by suicide and parent rip some months later. The insensitive atmosphere and comments at work had a bad effect on my mental health, I stood up for myself in a calm and professional manner, I got the cert from the GP but didn't put stress on it, I was off work for two weeks and my boss was ringing me every second day by the way to know how I was and was I feeling any better, I knew the game she was playing, basically I am the only employee there and my absence was being felt, big time. I got the courage to let the phone ring out when she rang and returned to work after 2 weeks as I felt under pressure due to the numerous phone calls she was making. When I returned to work it was purely as a result of the pressure with the phone ringing every other day, even though I left it ring out, the next problem was that the backlog was getting to them and of course they directed their frustration in the most subtle passive aggressive way towards me, I remained calm and professional. I am the first office person there and have brought structure and organisation where there was chaos and unmanageability, I had to beg for a raise and while I could do the job in my sleep and it is near me, the atmosphere and isolation is not good for me.
I found my GP to be very supportive, to be honest I went on a very low dose of anti depressants some time after in order to cope with the effect it was having on my mental and emotional health, my energy levels had dropped, I was unable to sleep and generally lost my motivation and enthusiasm for the things I love and enjoy.
I realise now that the atmosphere in the work place is the single most negative impact on my well being, I have asserted myself and taken all the stands I can with the help of counselling. While they backed off, the passive aggression would fill the Olympic Stadium! I am isolated, walking on egg shells and have made up my mind after the most recent incident where they were way out of order, that I am going to look for another part time job and move on, it is not a good environment for any one to be in, people who are unhappy in themselves transfer this onto others, I have a good life outside of work and I am happy to say that I am in a good place outside of work. The family business ( not mine) where I work are an older couple, they will find it very difficult to get any one to work in a stone age work place and put up with their unrealistic expectations and unprofessional/ juvenile behaviour and mind games. I look forward to the day that I will be giving in my notice as soon as I have a new job sourced, not going to give a reason as much as I would love to, that is where I will enjoy the moment, of not giving them the reward of knowing what I am thinking! I have been bullied at work before so there is a little bit of fear and apprehension moving forward. On the plus side I have no problem in getting holidays or days off.
My GP has advised me since that by going out on work related stress that I would still have to face the issues on my return, and I have to say I found this good advice, I am only there 3 long mornings a week and only for that I wouldn't be able to cope, I found my GP and taking the medication which I reluctantly went on a great help, mind your mental health OP and keep the focus on yourself, you have got through worse and we don't need people like that in our lives, we deserve better! You will get through it, don't answer the phone and think twice before you respond or discuss anything, they don't own you.0 -
mitresize5 wrote: »
Call you boss, explain to him what the situation is and ask him what you need to do to keep it all within the companies procedures. You might think they are busting your balls but if the procedures are there then they are for a reason. e.g. visit the company doctor etc...
Do not take this advice, you do not need to contact your boss. The sick cert is your contact to your boss and if your boss has any questions, he can contact the doctor(obviously wont).
Company procedures are there to protect the company, not you, read them but don't take action on unless requested, like visiting the company doctor.
Take some time to distance yourself from work problems. Life's too short to spend in a crap job environment, maybe evaluate what's important and see if something can be changed.0 -
Some very bad advice in this thread. You need to keep contact with your manager as requested. As a manager myself I ask anyone out longterm to make contact weekly.
Bear in mind that sick leave is a benefit, not an entitlement. You can face disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Although this would be harsh in this case, not answering calls and avoiding contact would not be the best way to go.
Also I do not accept sick certs that do not list an illness. Where I work a cert is required after 2 days (ie on the third day). A cert that says not fit for work will, not be accepted.
Also I would send anyone out over 2 weeks to company doctor and they would send a report.
If you are signed out then fine but my advice is do what they ask. Drop in notes in person, make contact as required and do what you are asked.
If you reported to me and didn't were uncooperative then I would look to take disciplinary action.
Remember you are breaking your contract by not showing up to work, no matter how serious the illness. A good company would support you but you need to be cooperative.0 -
Some very bad advice in this thread. You need to keep contact with your manager as requested. As a manager myself I ask anyone out longterm to make contact weekly.
Bear in mind that sick leave is a benefit, not an entitlement. You can face disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Although this would be harsh in this case, not answering calls and avoiding contact would not be the best way to go.
Also I do not accept sick certs that do not list an illness. Where I work a cert is required after 2 days (ie on the third day). A cert that says not fit for work will, not be accepted.
Also I would send anyone out over 2 weeks to company doctor and they would send a report.
If you are signed out then fine but my advice is do what they ask. Drop in notes in person, make contact as required and do what you are asked.
If you reported to me and didn't were uncooperative then I would look to take disciplinary action.
Remember you are breaking your contract by not showing up to work, no matter how serious the illness. A good company would support you but you need to be cooperative.
So a staff member is out with cancer and they have to come in in person with the note to you?? Or is your policy different for different ailments??
So you refuse staff based on what the doctor has wrote, not the staff but the DOCTOR??
Easy to see when a little bit of power goes to someones head, I'd love to see how well your employment contract would stand up, remember you can write what ever you want in a contract, but plenty of tribunals will just dismiss nonsense policies.0 -
Some very bad advice in this thread. You need to keep contact with your manager as requested. As a manager myself I ask anyone out longterm to make contact weekly.
Bear in mind that sick leave is a benefit, not an entitlement. You can face disciplinary action up to and including dismissal. Although this would be harsh in this case, not answering calls and avoiding contact would not be the best way to go.
Also I do not accept sick certs that do not list an illness. Where I work a cert is required after 2 days (ie on the third day). A cert that says not fit for work will, not be accepted.
Also I would send anyone out over 2 weeks to company doctor and they would send a report.
I'm a doctor, I've worked in 8 hospitals over the past years. (Hospital) sick certs in none of the hospitals I've been in have a section for what the illness is and that's completely right. I don't see what business it is of yours (albeit I've never given a cert for stress and would have fairly rarely arranged one for longer than two weeks) the medical/surgical reason why someone can't work is. They've been deemed medically unfit to work by a medical professional, I'd consider it a breach of confidentiality to let someone with no medical background know the details of why they've unfit for work. You can refer them on to a company doctor if you like.0 -
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I'd love to see how well your employment contract would stand up, remember you can write what ever you want in a contract, but plenty of tribunals will just dismiss nonsense policies.
It would probably stand up very well.
Remember that there is NO right to sick leave (ie being absent from work because you are sick) in Ireland. A cert explains but does not excuse your absence, and there is no obligation to hold your job open for you when you are sick. If you cannot work because you are sick, then the company is entitled to start the disciplinary process against you on day 1. Very few do - but legally they can.
Please note: I'm not defending the approach - I personally believe that this absolutely sucks, and is second only to dismissal-for-no-reason-at-all-during-probation in terms of horrible things in the Irish employment law. But it is a fact.
In terms of christy02's post, we don't know what industry s/he is in, but there are some areas (especially ones with public safety considerations) where an employer needs to be particularly aware of certain types of conditions, and would be justified in saying "cert without a reason = must attend company doctor". Local doctors in places where this applies usually know the drill.0 -
For it to be legal, then the company would have to have no sick policy and everyone who misses one day would have to be started on disciplinary action. You can't let one person off one day and not start procedures, but start with the next person.
As for notifiable illnesses, in the catering industry it must be notified by the staff member, unless the doctor knew that person worked in food production etc, they would not have to state it. Possibly different in other industries.0 -
Op here again. Thank you so much to everyone for your advice and sharing your personal experiences, it really means a lot!
For fear of being identified I don't want to give too much info on my job sector etc. But i have been there 3 years and the company does not pay my sick leave, even when I injured myself at work previously, resulting in me having to take time off they did not cover my wages or medical expenses.
I've been thinking if I would be best to just hand in my notice as the management within my company is shocking and no matter how many times things are discussed they go back to how they were within a matter of weeks. I have been generally unhappy within my job and role even before this latest incident that was handled badly by them. I have way too much responsibility for the wages I earn. I feel so undervalued and the stress is not doing my mental well being any favours.
I was just wondering would it be a bad idea if I was to request a meeting while on sick leave to discuss the stress I was under and to try negotiate a better salary to help me decide if I am going to return or not?0 -
Afgbbgxbdxv1 wrote: »Op here again. Thank you so much to everyone for your advice and sharing your personal experiences, it really means a lot!
For fear of being identified I don't want to give too much info on my job sector etc. But i have been there 3 years and the company does not pay my sick leave, even when I injured myself at work previously, resulting in me having to take time off they did not cover my wages or medical expenses.
I've been thinking if I would be best to just hand in my notice as the management within my company is shocking and no matter how many times things are discussed they go back to how they were within a matter of weeks. I have been generally unhappy within my job and role even before this latest incident that was handled badly by them. I have way too much responsibility for the wages I earn. I feel so undervalued and the stress is not doing my mental well being any favours.
I was just wondering would it be a bad idea if I was to request a meeting while on sick leave to discuss the stress I was under and to try negotiate a better salary to help me decide if I am going to return or not?
Would you be concerned that your request would suggest that your stress is related to the size of your wage packet? "If you pay me more, my stress will go away and I'll come back to work"
Your stress has morphed from a issue in your personal life into an issue with your wages.0 -
Would you be concerned that your request would suggest that your stress is related to the size of your wage packet? "If you pay me more, my stress will go away and I'll come back to work"
Your stress has morphed from a issue in your personal life into an issue with your wages.
I have to agree with the previous poster on this, I don't think it would look good to discuss a pay rise given the circumstances, it would probably be best to sort out your own health first and then deal with the salary issue another time, if you are unhappy with your work place a salary increase may make it easier but if there are issues there already these will surface again no matter what sort of wages you are receiving, also I don't think it is wise to make big changes when you are under so much stress, give yourself some more time off before making any big decisions, hope your feeling better soon op0 -
if you are unhappy with your work place a salary increase may make it easier but if there are issues there already these will surface again no matter what sort of wages you are receiving
Yeah I know what you're saying and it is true. I just feel like I was unhappy in my job for a number of reasons but i suppose i just tried to get on with it as best i could until that latest incident that has resulted in me taking leave and given me time to reflect on everything.
It's difficult for me to explain but I just feel like I need to get everything that has been building up out in the open with my manager and see if it can be resolved before I make the decision to go back. The wages aspect is only a part of all that but I know it probably isn't the best time to bring it up as it will get turned around as if that is the motivation behind me taking this leave or something. I just don't know what to do at the minute.0 -
OP. My advice is to speak to a professional. Quite frankly being out on stress leave and thinking you can negotiate a pay rise is delusional and representative of the amount of stress you are under. You aren't thinking straight if that is the thought process you are following.
In Ireland the law is essentially that a sick note explains your absence but does not excuse it. If you are unfit to work due to stress then your employer can dismiss you for failing to adhere with your contract. Please don't listen to those people telling you that stress qualifies as disability. It does not. Ultimately an employer needs to have the work done. In certain roles in certain large companies they can afford to carry the loss but most firms can't. It's not personal, its just that the firms customers won't accept your illness for their lack of service.
TBH it sounds like you need to take some time out from work to solve your personal problems. The best thing you could do is arrange for a unpaid leave of absence but that would be at the discretion of the employer. Playing hardball as some suggest is not going to work as you don't have any cards. Otherwise if you can afford it resign. The problem with these situations is that that is unlikely to be possible for you.
As I said, you should talk to a professional - your GP can refer you and there might be a possibility that your employer has a EAP programme.0 -
okay this changed things for me, your wage while it may make you more stressed from a personal side. paying bills etc has nothing to do with work related stress.0
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It's difficult for me to explain and therefore for anyone else to understand I know, but being way underpaid for what I do is a factor in my work related stress. As I said I can't go into too much detail for fear of being identified but I can assure you if I told you the sector I was in and the conditions I am working under you would under stand, although I know now that it's not the right time to bring the issue of pay up.
Mods please close this thread as being called delusional etc, although it may not be meant in a nasty way i understand, is not going to help me right now. Thank you everyone again for all your help & advice.0 -
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OP. My advice is to speak to a professional. Quite frankly being out on stress leave and thinking you can negotiate a pay rise is delusional and representative of the amount of stress you are under. You aren't thinking straight if that is the thought process you are following.
In Ireland the law is essentially that a sick note explains your absence but does not excuse it. If you are unfit to work due to stress then your employer can dismiss you for failing to adhere with your contract. Please don't listen to those people telling you that stress qualifies as disability. It does not. Ultimately an employer needs to have the work done. In certain roles in certain large companies they can afford to carry the loss but most firms can't. It's not personal, its just that the firms customers won't accept your illness for their lack of service.
TBH it sounds like you need to take some time out from work to solve your personal problems. The best thing you could do is arrange for a unpaid leave of absence but that would be at the discretion of the employer. Playing hardball as some suggest is not going to work as you don't have any cards. Otherwise if you can afford it resign. The problem with these situations is that that is unlikely to be possible for you.
As I said, you should talk to a professional - your GP can refer you and there might be a possibility that your employer has a EAP programme.
I don't think you are on sound ground there.
http://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/equality_and_mental_health___how_the_law_can_help_you.pdf0 -
I don't think you are on sound ground there.
http://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/equality_and_mental_health___how_the_law_can_help_you.pdf
Very good link, and I'm sure a lot of employers don't know about those 2 Acts of Law. There it is in black and white, you cannot be dismissed if you are under the Big Nine categories, or "Disabled". A good thing in my view.0 -
I don't think you are on sound ground there.
http://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/equality_and_mental_health___how_the_law_can_help_you.pdf
Can you point out the relevant section in your linked article describing stress as a mental disability or illness like depression, schizophrenia, etc? I'm not sure what solid ground you think you are on but claiming that stress falls under disability is simply not supportable at this time.
I'd have a little bit more respect for your comment if you'd referenced the 2014 case which clearly delineates between occupational and workplace stress but given the Op appears to be referencing occupational stress he does not have legal support. If he/she wants to claim that there is workplace bullying leading to workplace stress that's an entirely different post. But they haven't.0 -
2RockMountain wrote: »What's your source for this clarification, please?
I can't prove a negative. Where is occupational stress indicated as a disability?0 -
Can you point out the relevant section in your linked article describing stress as a mental disability or illness like depression, schizophrenia, etc? I'm not sure what solid ground you think you are on but claiming that stress falls under disability is simply not supportable at this time.
I'd have a little bit more respect for your comment if you'd referenced the 2014 case which clearly delineates between occupational and workplace stress but given the Op appears to be referencing occupational stress he does not have legal support. If he/she wants to claim that there is workplace bullying leading to workplace stress that's an entirely different post. But they haven't.
Page 4, don't know how you missed it to be fair but here it is:
"Does equality law protect people experiencing mental health difficulties? Disability is one of the nine grounds. The definition of disability under the Employment Equality Acts and the Equal Status Acts is broad. It includes physical, intellectual, learning, cognitive and emotional disabilities and a range of medical conditions. People with experience of mental health difficulties are covered by the disability ground. "
It also says that past OR current experiences of mental illness cannot be held against you at any time. Yes, of course you need to get a doctor to sign a cert to say workplace stress or no employer will take you serious but any doctor worth their salt will associate the OPs anxiety, depression etc with the workplace and sign him or her off.
Trust me, employers are scared sh!tless or seeing the words Workplace Related Stress on a cert and most of them will do anything rather than tackle a worker under this heading. De facto, the empoyer has certain responsibilities in this regard to help the employee like flexible working hours, different work etc and if they don't help the employee they are going against the Law.
I don't know if you are just splitting hairs for the sake of it or what but its very obvious from that link that stress and anxiety and depression does qualify as a disability and as such qualifies as on of the "Big Nine" categories.0 -
Can you point out the relevant section in your linked article describing stress as a mental disability or illness like depression, schizophrenia, etc? I'm not sure what solid ground you think you are on but claiming that stress falls under disability is simply not supportable at this time.
I'd have a little bit more respect for your comment if you'd referenced the 2014 case which clearly delineates between occupational and workplace stress but given the Op appears to be referencing occupational stress he does not have legal support. If he/she wants to claim that there is workplace bullying leading to workplace stress that's an entirely different post. But they haven't.
Yip. Read the paragraph:
Does equality law protect people experiencing mental health difficulties?
"Stress" is right there.
There was even an Equality Tribunal ruling about it: You can find out more about this case on the Equality Tribunal website www.equalitytribunal.ie. The case reference number is DEC-E2007-025.
I hope you are not suggesting that absence due to illness is only valid if it is as a result of workplace issues? The case you reference has to do with culpability and whether it is actionable, not the disability itself.0 -
Perhaps you should have said that, instead of saying "Please don't listen to those people telling you that stress qualifies as disability. It does not."I can't prove a negative. Where is occupational stress indicated as a disability?
You stated definitively it is not a disability. It is quite clear now that you had no basis for this.0
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