Anniversary of the shooting dead of Michael Collins

Water John

I am near to that and what my relative would have said was that they did not know.
My source would have been close enough to many of these people in later years.

4ensic15

Water John wrote: »

I am near to that and what my relative would have said was that they did not know.
My source would have been close enough to many of these people in later years.

There is so much rumour and heresay and deliberate disinformation surrounding those events that unverifiable hearsay must be rejected.

Water John

Well, there's been a lot of heresay in these 4 pages, throwing up all sorts of half baked innuendo.
I agree that those involved kept very quiet afterwards. There is no definitive answer if they knew.
But the man I refer was disliked, whether genuinely or through guilt.

BalcombeSt4

tac foley wrote: »

Hogwash, Sir.

tac

Well you say that but he controlled the the south politically and militarly and anyone who oppossed him was dealt with in brutal fashion. About 800 Freestate soldierswere killed in the war and possibly as many as 3000 Republicans were killed which is a staggering amount considering the small amount of Republicans who served in the IRA during the civil war.

It's one thing ambushing soldiers from an invading country it's an other to tie 9 of your former comrades to a mine & blow the mine up & machine gun anyone who survived. That's a SS style massacre.

KingBrian2

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well you say that but he controlled the the south politically and militarly and anyone who oppossed him was dealt with in brutal fashion. About 800 Freestate soldierswere killed in the war and possibly as many as 3000 Republicans were killed which is a staggering amount considering the small amount of Republicans who served in the IRA during the civil war.

It's one thing ambushing soldiers from an invading country it's an other to tie 9 of your former comrades to a mine & blow the mine up & machine gun anyone who survived. That's a SS style massacre.

It should never have happened. That been said atrocities were committed by both forces. The free state had to regain control of the country. Citizens lives had be put on hold for years. WW1, war of independence the Labour unrest, people wanted all the violence to end and if that meant the irregulars had to be crushed than so be it.

Chuchote

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

It's one thing ambushing soldiers from an invading country it's an other to tie 9 of your former comrades to a mine & blow the mine up & machine gun anyone who survived. That's a SS style massacre.

The Ballyseedy killings were in March 1923. If Michael Collins did them, he had an interesting afterlife!

Esel

Chuchote wrote: »

The Ballyseedy killings were in March 1923. If Michael Collins did them, he had an interesting afterlife!

I could well be wrong, but I don't think anyone here said that Mick was involved.

It's the old, old story - divide and rule. The Romans used to say it in Latin.

We have an old saying with the same eventual meaning / result:

"Is le ding dí féin a scoiltear an dair."

Chuchote

The atrocities began after the death of Collins. But the Civil War should never have happened. Negotiations has been set for the following Tuesday when the Four Courts were attacked. It would have been absolutely possible to negotiate and never to have this disgraceful, divisive, cruel war, the results of which are still resounding in Ireland in divisions within our society.

Chuchote

Chuchote wrote: »

The atrocities began after the death of Collins. But the Civil War should never have happened. Negotiations has been set for the following Tuesday when the Four Courts were attacked. It would have been absolutely possible to negotiate and never to have this disgraceful, divisive, cruel war, the results of which are still resounding in Ireland in divisions within our society.

Republican leaders like Liam Lynch worked hard to avoid armed conflict between ex-comrades, and to tried and achieve some form of understanding. But Collins and co were bloodthirsty.

KingBrian2

Deleted User wrote: »

Republican leaders like Liam Lynch worked hard to avoid armed conflict between ex-comrades, and to tried and achieve some form of understanding. But Collins and co were bloodthirsty.

I'd say Collins would have shown the same level of brutality against anti treatyites that he used against the British forces when a more diplomatic tone should have been adopted not only him but similar views expressed by the Free Staters. We have to consider different times a lot more violent.

Chuchote

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I'd say Collins would have shown the same level of brutality against anti treatyites that he used against the British forces when a more diplomatic tone should have been adopted not only him but similar views expressed by the Free Staters. We have to consider different times a lot more violent.

Not really. Violence can break out very easily if you let in hate: look at what happened in the lifetime of quite young people in Biafra, Bosnia, Serbia, Syria, Kuwait…

KingBrian2

Chuchote wrote: »

Not really. Violence can break out very easily if you let in hate: look at what happened in the lifetime of quite young people in Biafra, Bosnia, Serbia, Syria, Kuwait…

Incase you forgot WW1 had just taken place and men like Collins were locked up Frongach internment camp. Came out hardened even more than before.

lizzylad84

But didn't collins travel to Cork to not only inspect free state troops but negotiate a truce with anti treaty forces

KingBrian2

lizzylad84 wrote: »

But didn't collins travel to Cork to not only inspect free state troops but negotiate a truce with anti treaty forces

Deep into enemy territory from a crowd that were resolute in opposing the treaty.

Water John

There is no evidence of this, except that Dev was in the same general area.
I think Collins may have been making a point in travelling to his home place.

Chuchote

Yes, Collins was going home to Cork. He also seems to have felt sort of immortal at this stage, the poor guy. The person who should have been leading the convoy and knew the winding roads of the area was sick and was replaced. They'd all lashed back a load of celebratory Clonakilty Wrestler. Collins had never been in an actual gunfight and shouted to stand and fight, then stood up in the middle of the road instead of sheltering. A whole hideous confluence of events.

Jesus.

Chuchote wrote: »

Collins had never been in an actual gunfight.

The Rising?

Chuchote

Jesus. wrote: »

The Rising?

Well, yeah, sorry

But he'd spent the War of Independence being the boss who sent others into gunfire. What he did - deciding to 'stand and fight' and then walking into the middle of the road while bullets were whizzing - was crazily incautious.

Jesus.

Did he not participate in the gun-fighting a'tall?

Chuchote

Jesus. wrote: »

Did he not participate in the gun-fighting a'tall?

Nope.

Two and one

Would Collins not be described as a terrorist?

Chuchote

Two and one wrote: »

Would Collins not be described as a terrorist?

He would, if you were on the other side.

Lord Roberts (to whom the crazed people of Waterford recently put up a statue) could be described as a terrorist; in the Boer War, he penned Boer women and children in concentration camps, where 26,370 Boer women and children died, and 81% of those who died were children

Two and one

Chuchote wrote: »

He would, if you were on the other side.

Lord Roberts (to whom the crazed people of Waterford recently put up a statue) could be described as a terrorist; in the Boer War, he penned Boer women and children in concentration camps, where 26,370 Boer women and children died, and 81% of those who died were children

Oh yes, I wouldn't view Collins as a terrorist. It's just that more recent IRA men and women are labelled as terrorists and there's not much difference in their actions.

Chuchote

Two and one wrote: »

Oh yes, I wouldn't view Collins as a terrorist. It's just that more recent IRA men and women are labelled as terrorists and there's not much difference in their actions.

I don't want to get into a discussion of the modern IRA, which ends up as a distressing showering of mutual abuse, but it's important to realise that Collins, De Valera, Cathal Brugha et al were also running a massive civil disobedience campaign, allied with many county councils and city corporations, which made Ireland ungovernable and gradually set up a parallel government. It was this more than anything else that won our independence (imho).

Jesus.

Chuchote wrote: »

Nope.

What about that part in the film where he chucked turf on top of an RIC barracks?

Chuchote

Jesus. wrote: »

What about that part in the film where he chucked turf on top of an RIC barracks?

What about the part in the film where Broy died heroically, killed by the Tans? That would be Colonel Eamon "Ned" Broy (1887–1972)

Jesus.

Hmm I don't know Chucknote. Its hard to believe a Guerrilla commander of that era never got into a firefight in two years of conflict

Two and one

Chuchote wrote: »

I don't want to get into a discussion of the modern IRA, which ends up as a distressing showering of mutual abuse, but it's important to realise that Collins, De Valera, Cathal Brugha et al were also running a massive civil disobedience campaign, allied with many county councils and city corporations, which made Ireland ungovernable and gradually set up a parallel government. It was this more than anything else that won our independence (imho).

Well it didn't win our independence!

Chuchote

Jesus. wrote: »

Hmm I don't know Chucknote. Its hard to believe a Guerrilla commander of that era never got into a firefight in two years of conflict

Not really. My great-aunts, who worked with him, used to describe how he'd set up an office (at one stage in one of the roads in Temple Bar almost opposite Dublin Castle) and cycle innocently to and from it, and respectable-looking people would go in to do business in there, carrying information from the Castle, the RIC and DMP stations and so on. If there was a raid, he'd go out and cycle off again, nobody suspecting a thing.

He was the overall commander. It wouldn't have done a lot of good if he got himself killed going bang-bang at a tender full of soldiers.

And yes, it did win our independence. Last time I voted, it was for an Irish government.

Two and one

Chuchote wrote: »

Not really. My great-aunts, who worked with him, used to describe how he'd set up an office (at one stage in one of the roads in Temple Bar almost opposite Dublin Castle) and cycle innocently to and from it, and respectable-looking people would go in to do business in there, carrying information from the Castle, the RIC and DMP stations and so on. If there was a raid, he'd go out and cycle off again, nobody suspecting a thing.

He was the overall commander. It wouldn't have done a lot of good if he got himself killed going bang-bang at a tender full of soldiers.

And yes, it did win our independence. Last time I voted, it was for an Irish government.

Part independence!

Chuchote

…aaaannnd I'm out of this thread.

Jesus.

Good points Chuck. I didn't know about the Lord Roberts bust either. I just looked it up. Interesting.

Two and one

Chuchote wrote: »

…aaaannnd I'm out of this thread.

Last time I checked there was still 6 counties under foreign rule! That's part independence, sorry if you don't like facts. Then again you believe the story of Collins used to ride around on his bike unnoticed, all 6'4 of him apparantly.

Water John

Your innuendo there is that Collins was in the pay of the British. That's how daft your view is.

On your other point, the democratic vote indicates your views are very much a minority.

Two and one

Water John wrote: »

Your innuendo there is that Collins was in the pay of the British. That's how daft your view is.

On your other point, the democratic vote indicates your views are very much a minority.

What you on about?

Part of Ireland is under the rule of a foreign country. That's a fact irrespective of any vote.

Jesus.

Two and one wrote: »

Last time I checked there was still 6 counties under foreign rule! That's part independence, sorry if you don't like facts. Then again you believe the story of Collins used to ride around on his bike unnoticed, all 6'4 of him apparantly.

He was only around 5'10. Tall for his day alright but hardly a giant.

Two and one

Jesus. wrote: »

He was only around 5'10. Tall for his day alright but hardly a giant.

Yeah but the myth about him that was repeated earlier usually includes that he was 6'4. To believe he cycled around unnoticed and without a care in the world is laughable.

Jesus.

Jesus. wrote: »

Hmm I don't know Chucknote. Its hard to believe a Guerrilla commander of that era never got into a firefight in two years of conflict

He was no military genius. His one foray as a general was at Béal na Bláth, and that could easily have been avoided in the first place had he taken the advice of people with actual military experience.

Micks talents lay in human resource management/organising.

Arsemageddon

Deleted User wrote: »

He was no military genius. His one foray as a general was at Béal na Bláth, and that could easily have been avoided in the first place had he taken the advice of people with actual military experience.

Micks talents lay in human resource management/organising.

You seem to be confusing strategy and tactics. Collins excelled at the former.

Jesus.

Two and one wrote: »

Yeah but the myth about him that was repeated earlier usually includes that he was 6'4. To believe he cycled around unnoticed and without a care in the world is laughable.

Ah I see. What did he do so?

One man tells me he never fired a shot in anger and another tells me he never rode a bike!

Esel

He definitely didn't ride a hobby-horse anyway.

BalcombeSt4

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It should never have happened. That been said atrocities were committed by both forces. The free state had to regain control of the country. Citizens lives had be put on hold for years. WW1, war of independence the Labour unrest, people wanted all the violence to end and if that meant the irregulars had to be crushed than so be it.

Well nobody put a gun to the citizens heads' and made them vote for a radical Sinn Fien manifesto (atleast for it's time) in 1918 & helped spurr the IRA on even more, its not like the public walked into the dark on this one. And like Mellows said during the debates they had been irregulars long before the Civil War broke out.

Anyway I don't want to get into a debate about the who was right or wrong during the counter-revolutionary period but it's clear Collins had too much power for one man, look at how he alienated Dev, Brugha & even Bolland by the end of it all and how people like Vinny Byrne followed him blindedly & fanatically.

BalcombeSt4

Chuchote wrote: »

The Ballyseedy killings were in March 1923. If Michael Collins did them, he had an interesting afterlife!

His leadership style created the conditions for massacres like this to be carried out.

KingBrian2

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well nobody put a gun to the citizens heads' and made them vote for a radical Sinn Fien manifesto (atleast for it's time) in 1918 & helped spurr the IRA on even more, its not like the public walked into the dark on this one. And like Mellows said during the debates they had been irregulars long before the Civil War broke out.

Anyway I don't want to get into a debate about the who was right or wrong during the counter-revolutionary period but it's clear Collins had too much power for one man, look at how he alienated Dev, Brugha & even Bolland by the end of it all and how people like Vinny Byrne followed him blindedly & fanatically.

Well we have to consider their were moles across Ireland back than. He would have been ultra secretive and not allow vital information to fall into enemy headquarters. His gift came from having such a resonance with the people but at the end of the day he was a Militarist. Just imagine Dev being part of the Sinn Féin party which was open to the public, plenty of threats to his movement in that. Collins was the man you go to so you can get affairs done. Not for negotiating with peaceniks.

Jesus.

Balcombe are you and Two&One a pair of socks?

BalcombeSt4

Chuchote wrote: »

The atrocities began after the death of Collins. But the Civil War should never have happened. Negotiations has been set for the following Tuesday when the Four Courts were attacked. It would have been absolutely possible to negotiate and never to have this disgraceful, divisive, cruel war, the results of which are still resounding in Ireland in divisions within our society.

Agreed but all civil wars are like this just look at the American & Spanish civil wars. The Troubles to an exstent could be described as a civil war, granted the IRA & British mainly attacked each other but all 3 combatant forces, Loyalists, Republicans & British Army all carried out numerous atrocities against civilians in thier own state.

BalcombeSt4

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well we have to consider their were moles across Ireland back than. He would have been ultra secretive and not allow vital information to fall into enemy headquarters. His gift came from having such a resonance with the people but at the end of the day he was a Militarist. Just imagine Dev being part of the Sinn Féin party which was open to the public, plenty of threats to his movement in that. Collins was the man you go to so you can get affairs done. Not for negotiating with peaceniks.

Good points which I broadly agree with.

I still think tho he started believing in his own myth and encouraged it and acted like a military dicator which there can be no excuse for. Remember the reason Churchill pressed Collins to move on the Four Courts was because Collins sent over a hit squad to London to wipe out General Wilson.

BalcombeSt4

Jesus. wrote: »

Balcombe are you and Two&One a pair of socks?

Care to elaborate a little?

Jesus.

The two of you seem pretty hardened against the big fella

BalcombeSt4

Jesus. wrote: »

The two of you seem pretty hardened against the big fella

I think he was excellent up to a point but he let the power he had go to his head. Same with Dev, excellent up to a point but he did some dreadful things once in a almost unchallenged position of power which felt like it last for a century, I think most FF higher ups couldn't wait till he buggered of & let Sean Lemass take over who helped create modern Ireland.