Anniversary of the shooting dead of Michael Collins

Esel

He definitely didn't ride a hobby-horse anyway.

BalcombeSt4

KingBrian2 wrote: »

It should never have happened. That been said atrocities were committed by both forces. The free state had to regain control of the country. Citizens lives had be put on hold for years. WW1, war of independence the Labour unrest, people wanted all the violence to end and if that meant the irregulars had to be crushed than so be it.

Well nobody put a gun to the citizens heads' and made them vote for a radical Sinn Fien manifesto (atleast for it's time) in 1918 & helped spurr the IRA on even more, its not like the public walked into the dark on this one. And like Mellows said during the debates they had been irregulars long before the Civil War broke out.

Anyway I don't want to get into a debate about the who was right or wrong during the counter-revolutionary period but it's clear Collins had too much power for one man, look at how he alienated Dev, Brugha & even Bolland by the end of it all and how people like Vinny Byrne followed him blindedly & fanatically.

BalcombeSt4

Chuchote wrote: »

The Ballyseedy killings were in March 1923. If Michael Collins did them, he had an interesting afterlife!

His leadership style created the conditions for massacres like this to be carried out.

KingBrian2

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Well nobody put a gun to the citizens heads' and made them vote for a radical Sinn Fien manifesto (atleast for it's time) in 1918 & helped spurr the IRA on even more, its not like the public walked into the dark on this one. And like Mellows said during the debates they had been irregulars long before the Civil War broke out.

Anyway I don't want to get into a debate about the who was right or wrong during the counter-revolutionary period but it's clear Collins had too much power for one man, look at how he alienated Dev, Brugha & even Bolland by the end of it all and how people like Vinny Byrne followed him blindedly & fanatically.

Well we have to consider their were moles across Ireland back than. He would have been ultra secretive and not allow vital information to fall into enemy headquarters. His gift came from having such a resonance with the people but at the end of the day he was a Militarist. Just imagine Dev being part of the Sinn Féin party which was open to the public, plenty of threats to his movement in that. Collins was the man you go to so you can get affairs done. Not for negotiating with peaceniks.

Jesus.

Balcombe are you and Two&One a pair of socks?

BalcombeSt4

Chuchote wrote: »

The atrocities began after the death of Collins. But the Civil War should never have happened. Negotiations has been set for the following Tuesday when the Four Courts were attacked. It would have been absolutely possible to negotiate and never to have this disgraceful, divisive, cruel war, the results of which are still resounding in Ireland in divisions within our society.

Agreed but all civil wars are like this just look at the American & Spanish civil wars. The Troubles to an exstent could be described as a civil war, granted the IRA & British mainly attacked each other but all 3 combatant forces, Loyalists, Republicans & British Army all carried out numerous atrocities against civilians in thier own state.

BalcombeSt4

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well we have to consider their were moles across Ireland back than. He would have been ultra secretive and not allow vital information to fall into enemy headquarters. His gift came from having such a resonance with the people but at the end of the day he was a Militarist. Just imagine Dev being part of the Sinn Féin party which was open to the public, plenty of threats to his movement in that. Collins was the man you go to so you can get affairs done. Not for negotiating with peaceniks.

Good points which I broadly agree with.

I still think tho he started believing in his own myth and encouraged it and acted like a military dicator which there can be no excuse for. Remember the reason Churchill pressed Collins to move on the Four Courts was because Collins sent over a hit squad to London to wipe out General Wilson.

BalcombeSt4

Jesus. wrote: »

Balcombe are you and Two&One a pair of socks?

Care to elaborate a little?

Jesus.

The two of you seem pretty hardened against the big fella

BalcombeSt4

Jesus. wrote: »

The two of you seem pretty hardened against the big fella

I think he was excellent up to a point but he let the power he had go to his head. Same with Dev, excellent up to a point but he did some dreadful things once in a almost unchallenged position of power which felt like it last for a century, I think most FF higher ups couldn't wait till he buggered of & let Sean Lemass take over who helped create modern Ireland.

phater phagan

Over the years I've read and heard reports about his reaction to the ambush. How he stopped his driver from speeding up to get away from it, and then went out in the open to shoot back at the men who were ambushing.

However, the interview, from the archives of RTE from 1960s, with one of the soldiers in the cortege described their inability to drive on, because the road was blocked by a large beer cart, and the shooting was so severe. that to expose themselves in attempting to clear the obstruction, was not a viable option.

The ambush continued for 20 to 30 minutes, and when it died down Collins stood up to reload and was shot on the right side of his head and probably died instantly, by a sniper.

Nobody was safely able to attend to him because he was in an exposed area.

The elderly ex-soldier said in the interview that the attackers appeared not to be interested in killing any of them - that Collins was their only target.

It would have made more sense to reverse away from the situation.

I also heard reports in the past that many of them were intoxicated, that doesn't ring through at all.

whisky_galore

I also heard reports in the past that many of them were intoxicated, that doesn't ring through at all.

Why not? Who was going to breathalyse them? Only up to fairly recently it was not unknown for men to have alcohol on a work break, even when doing hazardous work.

Jellybaby_1

Apologies for intruding, I haven't read the reports, but even I can see how wrong it would be to 'stand up' to reload. Where was MC positioned at that time, was he still crouching in the car, or had he taken cover behind the vehicle, or was he under some sort of cover in a ditch? I'm just curious about his standing up to re-load, it doesn't make sense for an experienced military man, a general, to do that whilst under fire.