Automatic cars are "bad drivers".

JoeA3

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Auto handbrakes are a bit of a mystery to me. If i'm sitting at traffic lights with it engaged and someone slams into me at even a modest 50km/h, it's not gonna do squat.

And what would you expect it to do in that scenario?!!

The auto hold in the Golf actually brakes all 4 wheels afaik.

Lantus

ironclaw wrote: »

Theres a massive difference between a Ferrari auto box and that in a family Mazda. The reason is pretty much two fold, a manual box couldn't handle the power transfer and the driver could never keep up with changes, hence your top speeds are affected and the driver experience is ruined.

I'd only ever drive a DSG or Paddle box, a straight 'put it in D' is a nightmare. Not a popular opinion, but I don't feel in control of the car in an straight D auto. You can't possible set up for a corner correctly in 'spirited' driving, nor can you engine brake. Overtaking, you're going to have lag. I want a change down, turbo spinning before I go.

I do love the exotic manuals, but as daily driver, I prefer the control of a manual or high end paddle shift.

Struggling to think of any scenario where I have to set up a corner correctly on my daily commute. Overtaking is fairly pointless unless its a tractor. The other 10000 cars in front get in the way.

Toyotafanboi

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Auto handbrakes are a bit of a mystery to me. If i'm sitting at traffic lights with it engaged and someone slams into me at even a modest 50km/h, it's not gonna do squat.

What would a manual handbrake do differently in the same circumstance?

CianRyan

Lantus wrote: »

Struggling to think of any scenario where I have to set up a corner correctly on my daily commute. Overtaking is fairly pointless unless its a tractor. The other 10000 cars in front get in the way.

1. He said spirited driving, nothing about a daily commute.

2. No, it's completely relevant as in any over taking situation the instant response of an average standard manual is going to be better than your average standard auto and seconds matter when you're in te wrong side of the road.

Mikefitzs

I loved every automatic I've owned and always regretted not buying another when I got a manual. I've not had an auto diesel but I might give one a go. I do love driving automatic.

Esel

CianRyan wrote: »

1. He said spirited driving, nothing about a daily commute.

2. No, it's completely relevant as in any over taking situation the instant response of an average standard manual is going to be better than your average standard auto and seconds matter when you're in te wrong side of the road.

That is a fallacy anyway.

CianRyan

Esel wrote: »

That is a fallacy anyway.

Hmm? How so?

Esel

CianRyan wrote: »

Hmm? How so?

Sorry, I messed up the bolding in my original reply - I've corrected it above now.

What I'm calling a fallacy is "the instant response of an average standard manual".

A post I made six years ago in this thread http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056031268/1

Esel wrote: »

Most automatic gearboxes use a torque converter (don't go to that link.... ) which incidentally soaks up a percentage of the available engine power.

So, if you have an average 'small' engine, and sacrifice say 10% (arbitrary, but I remember reading LJK Setright* in Bike magazine years ago, where he was extolling the benefits of automatic gearboxes - and this was waaay before DSG, tiptronic, or paddle shifts..) of that power - you will certainly notice it. Now imagine a 'bigger' engine, which, for the sake of this discussion, makes appreciably more power to start with. Sacrificing 10% of that power will be not nearly so noticable, in everyday driving. Ergo (;)), small-engined automatics have a 'bad reputation' among the 'cognoscenti'. Never mind that the same detractors wouldn't have the same car even if it had a manual gearbox.....

The fact is that the great mass of drivers use only a small fraction of the power that whatever car they drive is capable of. So, if you have a car with a 'small' engine and an automatic gearbox - just give it a bit more welly! Also, You do not need tiptronic or its equivalent for more control over gearchanges if driving an auto - just use the gearshift lever (easing off the throttle when changing, obviously. Simples!

p.s. 'Stick'? - gag me with a spoon! I know it's the term used in the USA, but it still galls.

p.p.s. There is an alternative automatic gearbox (with all the original glitches of the design ironed out, afaik?) called a CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission), which has been introduced relatively recently by some manufacturers. This does not have a torque converter, so no associated loss of power. Also, it does not change 'gear' in the normal sense. Rather, it continuously varies (duh! ) the final drive ratio. Power delivery (so I have read) is smoooth. I have not read any bad news about the current generation CVT, although this does not mean there is none. I have never bought a car magazine.....

* LJK Setright (read the obituaries linked at the end of that Wikipedia page) - I'm paraphrasing from distant memory here: "I prefer to have 90% of the available power being delivered to the driving wheel(s) 100% of the time, than 100% of the .. etc. ...90% of the time." Imho, he was an absolutely brilliant writer on automotive matters (Bike magazine experience only...). Many years later, I stupidly didn't buy a proof copy of one of his books when I had the chance.... D'oh!

Another post of mine from the same thread (on left-foot braking):

Esel wrote: »

I'm now on an LJK Setright googling run, and found this article, the topic of which is close to my heart - Left Foot Braking ftw!

L J K Setright: Two feet are better than one to get an extra bit of control

Edit: link above not working - I'm sure the article itself is available somewhere on the web though.

mudabi

I was firmly in the manual camp until I changed my car a few years ago and drove both the manual and auto variants..instantly converted to auto. A good auto box coupled to a good engine is the only way to drive in my opinion. Every time I change gear in my wife's manual car I think 'why am I doing this, no need to be doing this', especially in traffic. Hers will be replaced soon hopefully

Trojan

The only problem I have with automatics is my car doesn't drive at night.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9t3XBXmtgQ

Cookie_Monster

Been driving autos for the past 5 years since moving to NZ and while it's handy for the stop start city driving I don't really much of that as we don't live in a big city and miss the manual a lot. Plus the autobox in the legacy is moronic, especially when cold, and won't hold it in a lower gear while descending hills; it really annoys me.

Was back in Ireland / UK on hols last week and had nothing but manual driving, it was great

I've nothing against autos and I'm sure in a newer car they'll be great (I won't have a choice as the new outback doesn't come in manual anyway) but I'll always prefer manual over auto.

Esel

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Been driving autos for the past 5 years since moving to NZ and while it's handy for the stop start city driving I don't really much of that as we don't live in a big city and miss the manual a lot. Plus the autobox in the legacy is moronic, especially when cold, and won't hold it in a lower gear while descending hills; it really annoys me.

Was back in Ireland / UK on hols last week and had nothing but manual driving, it was great

I've nothing against autos and I'm sure in a newer car they'll be great (I won't have a choice as the new outback doesn't come in manual anyway) but I'll always prefer manual over auto.

Bold above: I don't think your issues are related to gearboxes, rather to the particular car and it's particular gearbox. Or a peculiar gearbox...

The last thing one looks for from an automatic gearbox is engine braking. Brakes have to be good; if loads of downhill - very good - pads and discs; even stop, enjoy the view and let them cool down. Don't melt the pads to the discs, because - brake fade. Brake fade bad, very, very bad.

Engine-braking in a manual gearbox car works, obviously - but it is not recommended as an emergency manoeuvre. Always have good brakes, use them wisely, and brake early rather than late. Look where you want to go. Learn about the vanishing point. Lift your head.

tl/dr It's not about the gearbox, it's about you. Keep both eyes on the road, and two hands on the wheel - every time you can. Think Jackie Stewart - be smooth. Let your passengers sleep; get them home safely.

RobAMerc

95% of Irish drivers should be driving autos. Folks are often too distracted operating the vehicle to pay attention to traffic conditions and actually drive the car. our roads also mean fewer and fewer or us ever drive on roads that are better suited to manuals now anyway - motorways and city driving are 100% up autos street.
I too would love a manual for hairing across the wicklow mountains but in real life an auto is the way to go.

Mervyn Skidmore

Brian Scan

I think the general consensus here, as it so often is in the Motors forum, is that "What I drive is best"

grogi

Brian Scan wrote: »

I think the general consensus here, as it so often is in the Motors forum, is that "What I drive is best"

No, I don't think so. I think it is safe to say that majority would prefer automatic, but there are some reliability/economy/performance considerations.

ironclaw

ironclaw wrote: »

..................

I'd only ever drive a DSG or Paddle box, a straight 'put it in D' is a nightmare. Not a popular opinion, but I don't feel in control of the car in an straight D auto. You can't possible set up for a corner correctly in 'spirited' driving, nor can you engine brake. Overtaking, you're going to have lag. I want a change down, turbo spinning before I go...............

Surely there are plenty non DSG, non paddle auto's with tiptronic type function for manual gear selection? Just becaus there aren't paddles doen't mean you can't select gear as you describe.

ianobrien

Augeo wrote: »

Surely there are plenty non DSG, non paddle auto's with tiptronic type function for manual gear selection? Just becaus there aren't paddles doen't mean you can't select gear as you describe.

Yep there is. I was in both types of Land Cruiser (the full fat one and the Prado) that had tiptronic change on a regular auto and no paddles. All you had to do was move the gear lever to the side out of "D" and you then had a correct pattern tiptronic (push forward to change down). It was very handy for emergency engine braking down from 160kph and any sort of braking helped to avoid the 40tonne truck that decided it wanted to be in our lane......

ianobrien

ianobrien wrote: »

Yep there is...............

I thought so
I test drove an FTO about 15 years ago that had such a system and have noticed plenty of auto boxes with the +/- next to the D so would have thought it common enough.

zilog_jones

ironclaw wrote: »

...nor can you engine brake.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

...and won't hold it in a lower gear while descending hills; it really annoys me.

That's what L, 1/2 or B is for in an automatic. B in particular (on Toyotas and maybe others) is literally "Engine Braking" mode.

bazz26 wrote: »

In an auto it means you don't have to put the car in P every time you stop say in traffic.

No one should be doing this - with traditional linear gear selectors you're passing through R to get to P, and your reverse lights flash every time - so you look like a crazy person. P is for parking. If you want to take your foot off the brake pedal in traffic, put it in neutral and apply the parking brake.

Cookie_Monster

zilog_jones wrote: »

That's what L, 1/2 or B is for in an automatic. B in particular (on Toyotas and maybe others) is literally "Engine Braking" mode.

One or 2 is frequently too low though and if it was a manual I would hold it in 3 or even four the odd time. Mine does have a semi manual mode though so at least I can hold it in gear when I want to on long descents.
The wife has an 06 golf which at least doesnt upshift by itself when descending a hill.

Esel

Esel wrote: »

.................

The last thing one looks for from an automatic gearbox is engine braking. Brakes have to be good; if loads of downhill - very good - pads and discs; even stop, enjoy the view and let them cool down. Don't melt the pads to the discs, because - brake fade. Brake fade bad, very, very bad.

Engine-braking in a manual gearbox car works, obviously .................

Wouldn't agree with that, the tiptronic boxes lend themselves perfectly to engine braking, on a long descent into 3 or 4 and it's great assistance to your actual brakes.

Or just ride the brake as you suggest and take a view stop before you cook them every once in a while.

pajo1981

A bit of a tangent, but does anyone have any experience of the ZF 8 speeds in the 3 series? I'm thinking of picking one up.

bazz26

zilog_jones wrote: »

That's what L, 1/2 or B is for in an automatic. B in particular (on Toyotas and maybe others) is literally "Engine Braking" mode.



No one should be doing this - with traditional linear gear selectors you're passing through R to get to P, and your reverse lights flash every time - so you look like a crazy person. P is for parking. If you want to take your foot off the brake pedal in traffic, put it in neutral and apply the parking brake.

I haven't driven too may older automatic setups but in my BMW ZF box, there is no need for the box to go from D to R to get to P. P is a just a button at the top of the shifter and only use it when parking up.

But anyway I never have to put it in P for temporary stopping. Auto hold does away with the need for the foot brake while the car is stopped and in D.

ironclaw

zilog_jones wrote: »

That's what L, 1/2 or B is for in an automatic. B in particular (on Toyotas and maybe others) is literally "Engine Braking" mode..

Probably in a rental car in the US every other week and I've never seen any of those letters. I'll keep an eye.

Shint0

Esel wrote: »

Another post of mine from the same thread (on left-foot braking)

Unless you suffer from left-sided neglect which I do. For the most part the majority tend to be right-side dominant in terms of physical coordination but for me it's probably even more of a challenge than for the average person who might master it with practice. Possibly linked to the connection between dopamine and coordination but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

This put me off learning to drive for a while as I thought I would have difficulty controlling the gear stick with my left hand and coordinating the movements. Most people advise learning and taking a test on a manual and not on an automatic. In the end I was fine as my difficulties are with dual-task coordination where the tasks are ongoing simultaneously where as moving the gear stick and foot pedals are more sporadic.

Now I drive an automatic so it has for the most part eliminated using my left side from the equation while driving. If I'm driving abroad where they drive on the right side of the road in a left hand drive I go for an automatic as I don't think I could use a manual so easily.

It doesn't really affect me checking my left wing mirrors because I've always been conscious of it and have probably learned to compensate for it. Not sure if it becomes more of an issue for people who transition from manual to auto, they're not using their left side as much in operating the car and if that also impacts on checking the left blind spot.

Special Circumstances

zilog_jones wrote: »

That's what L, 1/2 or B is for in an automatic.

ironclaw wrote: »

Probably in a rental car in the US every other week and I've never seen any of those letters. I'll keep an eye.

Yaarrrr, 1/2 speed ahead, steady as she goes!

galwaytt

pajo1981 wrote: »

A bit of a tangent, but does anyone have any experience of the ZF 8 speeds in the 3 series? I'm thinking of picking one up.

I rented one for 8 days, in Austria recently, a 420 Gran Coupé. Deliberately rented an auto. Very impressive. Had Stop/Start too, which I switched off as it was driving me nuts. Bear in mind we've an EDC 'boxed Renault, and old fashioned torque convertor Saab and a Tiptronic 911, so I have a few things to compare to, and it was better than all of them.

Drove it in manual mode on the Großglockener Pass, some on the way up, some on the way down. I was impressed.

And I don't normally go for BeeEmms !!

It's not the gearbox that'd put me off: the notion that 2.0d engine could go awol would be enough to stop me buying it.


https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/44189/395377.jpg

MetzgerMeister

galwaytt wrote: »

It's not the gearbox that'd put me off: the notion that 2.0d engine could go awol would be enough to stop me buying it.

BMW introduced a new 2.0d at the start of this year. While I'd love to say it doesn't suffer from the same fate as the old ones, I'm not fully in the know but presumably they have sorted it.

bazz26

galwaytt wrote: »

I rented one for 8 days, in Austria recently, a 420 Gran Coupé. Deliberately rented an auto. Very impressive. Had Stop/Start too, which I switched off as it was driving me nuts. Bear in mind we've an EDC 'boxed Renault, and old fashioned torque convertor Saab and a Tiptronic 911, so I have a few things to compare to, and it was better than all of them.

Drove it in manual mode on the Großglockener Pass, some on the way up, some on the way down. I was impressed.

And I don't normally go for BeeEmms !!

It's not the gearbox that'd put me off: the notion that 2.0d engine could go awol would be enough to stop me buying it.


https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/44189/395377.jpg

If you select the Sport driving profile it automatically disables stop/start. It also tightens the steering, suspension and increases throttle response.

zilog_jones

bazz26 wrote: »

I haven't driven too may older automatic setups but in my BMW ZF box, there is no need for the box to go from D to R to get to P. P is a just a button at the top of the shifter and only use it when parking up.

That's why I said "traditional linear gear selectors", which are always in the sequence P-R-N-D-[2-1/L/whatever]. Mine has a P button too, but a lot don't.

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Yaarrrr, 1/2 speed ahead, steady as she goes!

I meant separate 2 and 1 selections (sometimes a 3 too), which locks or restricts the gearbox in the lower gears.

sunnysoutheast

pajo1981 wrote: »

A bit of a tangent, but does anyone have any experience of the ZF 8 speeds in the 3 series? I'm thinking of picking one up.

The 8HP is an excellent gearbox. It's used in a lot of other applications too.

I need to get ours in the 318d serviced as it's just gone over the 100k kms. Finding it difficult to find anyone in Ireland who is a ZF agent so would do it properly. I'll probably get it done next time I'm over in the UK.

sunnysoutheast

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

BMW introduced a new 2.0d at the start of this year. While I'd love to say it doesn't suffer from the same fate as the old ones, I'm not fully in the know but presumably they have sorted it.

I thought in general there were a lot fewer reports of timing chain issues with the N47s from 03/2011 onwards, although it wasn't completely eliminated?

I hope so anyway as ours is a 2012!

bazz26

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

BMW introduced a new 2.0d at the start of this year. While I'd love to say it doesn't suffer from the same fate as the old ones, I'm not fully in the know but presumably they have sorted it.

It was introduced in mid 2014, have it in my F10 and so far no major issues. It was fitted to the F3x range last year.

jca

bazz26 wrote: »

It was introduced in mid 2014, have it in my F10 and so far no major issues. It was fitted to the F3x range last year.

On a 2 year old car, there wouldn't want to be any issues!!!

bazz26

jca wrote: »

On a 2 year old car, there wouldn't want to be any issues!!!

In an ideal world yes. With the older engine they started reporting problems with chains on 2 year old cars at the time.

MetzgerMeister

bazz26 wrote: »

It was introduced in mid 2014, have it in my F10 and so far no major issues. It was fitted to the F3x range last year.

Ah right! I drove a 161 F31 320d with the new engine and thought it was only introduced this year. It's an absolute peach of an engine!

jca

bazz26 wrote: »

In an ideal world yes. With the older engine they started reporting problems with chains on 2 year old cars at the time.

That's terrible. They weren't very accommodating to people either.

650Ginge

Auto for the last 10 years.

They aren't all equal. But I wont go back to a manual.

thierry14

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Irish people do think that, yeah.

The problem is most Irish people just stereotype cars really really badly and almost nobody does any pre purchase consumer research and that would save so many people so many migrane headaches.

We are much more prone to learning from our mistakes as opposed to trying to avoid mistakes in the first place.

Diesel is good and petrol is bad, Volkswagens are good and Fiats are bad and that's about it.

I recently went automatic, or automated manual, if you are pedantic. The car is a 1.8 petrol and I do 200km a day in it with the cruise control rivited to 130km/h and i'm getting just shy of 48mpg across a tank and i'm pretty sure I could crack 50mpg fI I pruned that back to 120.

I had a guy in work today feeling very sad that his 162 Golf diesel was only returning the same figure across a tank, he was expecting high 60's, early 70's apparently.

48mpg @ 130km/h in a 1.8 petrol haha

Not a chance!

Toyotafanboi

thierry14 wrote: »

48mpg @ 130km/h in a 1.8 petrol haha

Not a chance!

That's the very attitude i'm talking about.

thierry14

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That's the very attitude i'm talking about.

Cause it's lies

Brian Scan

thierry14 wrote: »

48mpg @ 130km/h in a 1.8 petrol haha

Not a chance!

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That's the very attitude i'm talking about.

thierry14 wrote: »

Cause it's lies

Why would he lie?

thierry14

Brian Scan wrote: »

Why would he lie?

1.8 petrols don't do 48mpg @ 130 km/h

Unless it's down Everest

This Prius gen II

http://www.metrompg.com/zoom_image.htm?H=289&W=500&ZoomFile=Prius%5FSpeed%5Fvs%5FMPG%2Dz%2Ejpg&Caption=%28%3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fpriuschat%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Fshowtopic%3D15285%26pid%3D210092%26st%3D26%22%20target%3D%22%5Fblank%22%3ESource%3C%2Fa%3E%29&title=Prius%20II%20speed%20vs%2E%20mpg

Brian Scan

thierry14 wrote: »

1.8 petrols don't do 48mpg @ 130 km/h

Unless it's down Everest

This Prius gen II

http://www.metrompg.com/zoom_image.htm?H=289&W=500&ZoomFile=Prius%5FSpeed%5Fvs%5FMPG%2Dz%2Ejpg&Caption=%28%3Ca%20href%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fpriuschat%2Ecom%2Findex%2Ephp%3Fshowtopic%3D15285%26pid%3D210092%26st%3D26%22%20target%3D%22%5Fblank%22%3ESource%3C%2Fa%3E%29&title=Prius%20II%20speed%20vs%2E%20mpg

What is the relevance of the Prius graph?

thierry14

Brian Scan wrote: »

What is the relevance of the Prius graph?

I am guessing his 1.8 petrol auto is a Prius

Brian Scan

thierry14 wrote: »

I am guessing his 1.8 petrol auto is a Prius

So you're saying that he's a liar based on a guess?

Toyotafanboi

thierry14 wrote: »

Cause it's lies

My fuelly signature is there. It's early days as i'm only in the car 6 weeks or so. My commute is 80km each way, 95% motorway and that's my average so far.

Spike Witwicky

OSI wrote: »

I can manage 42mpg in a 2.0 Turbo petrol automatic with cruise and a/c enabled. I could easily see a 1.8 managing better.

Managed to get 47.7mpg in a 05 Mercedes C180K with cruise control enabled and motorway driving. Admittedly at a lower speed.

[IMG]http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/<a href=http://s122.photobucket.com/user/cungi79/media/Cars/20150625_074757_zpswibtjlj5.jpg.html target=_blank>[/img]

Falcon L

jca wrote: »

bazz26 wrote: »

In an ideal world yes. With the older engine they started reporting problems with chains on 2 year old cars at the time.

That's terrible. They weren't very accommodating to people either.

Is that what they mean in the advertising when they say 'that feeling'?