Automatic cars are "bad drivers".

bazz26

Falcon L wrote: »

Is that what they mean in the advertising when they say 'that feeling'?

Similar to "If only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen." or "Toyota, the best built cars in the world."

bmwguy

OSI wrote: »

I can manage 42mpg in a 2.0 Turbo petrol automatic with cruise and a/c enabled. I could easily see a 1.8 managing better.

I get 36-38 mpg in a 2.5 auto petrol on the motorway between Dublin and Belfast or Dublin and Limerick, sometimes hitting up to 140 when road empty in front of me. If I dropped back to 110 the whole way it would easily exceed 40mpg. But life is too short for that carry on. Like you I use aircon when it's needed. Not cruise control though, I don't actually like it. Only about 25mpg on my normal work commute with traffic lights etc.So I do believe the 1.8 doing 48.

ironclaw

Averaging 31.7MPG in a 3.0 petrol at the moment. Drop the hammer though and you can see the needle move.

Joe 90

Just looked at mine and it shows 28.4 on the current tank full. That was a mixture of round town, motorway, a bit of single carriageway cross country and a big stubble filed used as a car park. Can't really complain for a big car with a 5 liter V8 and aircon on all the time..

frozenfrozen

that's good going joe I'd say you could get it into single figures with a bit of spirited driving

Voodoomelon

JoeA3 wrote: »

And what would you expect it to do in that scenario?!!

The auto hold in the Golf actually brakes all 4 wheels afaik.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

What would a manual handbrake do differently in the same circumstance?

I guess what I was trying to say is that the locking pins that lock the axles on automatics perform much the same task as a handbrake on a manual. They wouldn't have the same strength as four wheels being locked no, but aside from being hit by a car at 50kph which both systems would do little for, there's little need to engage the brake (when parking up) on an auto unless you live in an exceptionally hilly area.

And even then I hate the stress the parking brake puts on the locking pins when the handbrake is released when parked on an incline.

Joe 90

frozenfrozen wrote: »

that's good going joe I'd say you could get it into single figures with a bit of spirited driving

Yes, probably low single. The real trouble with the thing is that you forget how fast you are going, gotta watch out for the boys in blue all the time.

grogi

Joe 90 wrote: »

Yes, probably low single. The real trouble with the thing is that you forget how fast you are going, gotta watch out for the boys in blue all the time.

Hardly comfortable cruising...

gctest50

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I guess what I was trying to say is that the locking pins that lock the axles on automatics perform much the same task as a handbrake on a manual. They wouldn't have the same strength as four wheels being locked no, but aside from being hit by a car at 50kph which both systems would do little for, there's little need to engage the brake (when parking up) on an auto unless you live in an exceptionally hilly area.

And even then I hate the stress the parking brake puts on the locking pins when the handbrake is released when parked on an incline.

Don't worry about it, big dirty parking pawl at the back of the box - going nowhere

Leonard Hofstadter

Well this has turned out to be an interesting thread for sure!

I've driven cars with manual, DSG/DCT, traditional auto and CVT boxes, with petrol and diesel engines.

The worst, by a mile, is CVT, I f****** hate it with every fibre of my being. Maybe it's different with hybrids, but they're muck in an ordinary car.

I'm really torn about the others, though.

It really annoys me the snobbery that seems to exist amongst some people that one is not a 'proper' car enthusiast because they don't own an automatic, or don't think automatics are better than manuals.

I accept the point that there is some ignorance amongst the general public (such as that alluded to by the OP, who incidentally is clearly far more knowledgeable about cars than the bloke she was describing), some people have it in their head that a car must have a manual gearbox otherwise all sorts of trouble will be caused.

That said, it pisses me off no end when I hear so-called 'petrolheads' talking down those who don't share their worldview that everything with an automatic gearbox is automatically (excuse the pun) better than a manual. If we were to believe some auto fans, manual fans have supposedly never driven an automatic or are luddites who long for the 'good old days' and can't deal with so-called 'progress'.

As a case in point, I drove two E46 320is over the weekend, one with a manual gearbox, and the other with an automatic. The manual is far nicer, it changes gear beautifully, and you can really get that beautiful straight six engine to sing with the manual. The auto is noticeably slower (though in truth, neither is an especially fast car) and quite simply not as involving to drive, far less of an ultimate driving machine in my eyes. I wouldn't buy one with an automatic if you paid me.

A good manual box adds to the driving experience, not takes away. It's no hardship changing gear in a car with a sweet shifting, short throw box with a well weighted clutch.

On the other hand, when it comes to diesels, I much prefer automatics, if I was forced to buy a diesel, I would certainly going out with the intention to buy an automatic. I've driven a VW Passat and Skoda Octavia, both with the same 1.6 TDI engine, but the VW was a manual, while the Skoda was a DSG. Depending on the car, diesels have heavier clutches, notchier gearboxes, awful vibrations and are just a bit of a pig to drive, especially if they are of the smaller engined variety. They're a complete pain around town as you can't just use the clutch to get them going in slow moving traffic like you can in an NA petrol (they will stall). The big advantage of automatic or DSG boxes is that they totally mask the narrow power band and non-linear delivery as it keeps the engine in its sweet spot most of the time. The 530d is a beautiful car to drive with the automatic, too and the gearbox really suits the car. I also accept that luxury cars (S-class etc) and SUVs should be manual free zones, too.

I've also driven an E92 M3 with a DCT gearbox and while it was fantastic, I still would want a manual. I know the DCT is technically faster and it is an excellent gearbox, and of course an M3 is supposed to be fast, but come on, a manual M3 is still going to be a stupidly quick car and it would be more fun (unless the clutch is very heavy or something). Like I say, in the right car a manual adds rather than takes away from the pleasure of driving it.

In short, it really depends on the type of car and engine. For me at its simplest, I want a manual with a petrol engine and an automatic with a diesel.

But I want a petrol more than I want a diesel, and I want something that's a bit of fun to drive, so manual it is for me.

zilog_jones

captainspeed wrote: »

The worst, by a mile, is CVT, I f****** hate it with every fibre of my being. Maybe it's different with hybrids, but they're muck in an ordinary car.

CVTs in hybrid cars are only CVT by name - they are mechanically totally different and more like planetary gears. In Toyota hybrids the electric motors are essentially in the gearbox which allows them to drive the wheels directly and independently from the ICE. I have a Prius and find it pretty responsive, and there's much more granularity compared to a traditional auto box. Only downside is the engine speed doesn't really have any relation to the road speed, and under heavy load the constant drone of the ICE doesn't sound particularly nice.

The only real automatic I've driven besides hybrids was a Chrysler 300 3.6 V6 (the small engine ) with an 8-speed ZF 8HP box (similar to in the BMW 3 series as other people mentioned previously) - I often found it hard to get it to do what I wanted when accelerating, outside of flooring it and it screaming away in 2nd gear. I don't have the same problem in the Prius, though maybe I just needed more experience with the 300 (only had it a couple of weeks in the US). It was great for cruising though, and I could easily average 45 MPG (imperial gallons, not US!) on highways which was impressive for such a large car/engine.

Widdershins

The only issue I have with an automatic is that I think I'd never get used to it. As for it being for ''people who can't drive'', well that's more applicable to all of the parking assist features in modern cars, in my opinion.

grogi

Widdershins wrote: »

The only issue I have with an automatic is that I think I'd never get used to it. As for it being for ''people who can't drive'', well that's more applicable to all of the parking assist features in modern cars, in my opinion.

Me thinks you actually would faster than you think

It usually takes a few fake clutch presses and one break attempt with left foot; nobody resists that temptation and that is painful. After that you're grand.

grogi

zilog_jones wrote: »

CVTs in hybrid cars are only CVT by name - they are mechanically totally different and more like planetary gears. In Toyota hybrids the electric motors are essentially in the gearbox which allows them to drive the wheels directly and independently from the ICE. I have a Prius and find it pretty responsive, and there's much more granularity compared to a traditional auto box. Only downside is the engine speed doesn't really have any relation to the road speed, and under heavy load the constant drone of the ICE doesn't sound particularly nice.

For me, the biggest downside of HSD was the lack of changing sound during acceleration. The note of engine gradually getting revs gives 80% of the pleasure from driving.

Esel

grogi wrote: »

Me thinks you actually would faster than you think

It usually takes a few fake clutch presses and one break attempt with left foot; nobody resists that temptation and that is painful. After that you're grand.

I always use left foot braking.

grogi

Esel wrote: »

I always use left foot braking.

But do you remember your first time? :]

Esel

grogi wrote: »

But do you remember your first time? :]

I remember getting back into an automatic after a few months in a manual (slamming the clutch pedal to the floor). Let's just say I did not think it was possible to brake that hard! :eek:

jca

Before I had my own auto I used to do some weekend driving in an auto limo, I found keeping my hand on my lower leg for the first 5 mins or so stopped me trying to clutch. I don't have any problem switching at all now.

Cedrus

Jayop wrote: »

That said, you don't have the same driving fun in low speed on a bendy road in an auto as you can get going through the gears on a manual with a tight box.

Where is the fun in driving at low speed on a bendy road anyway?

wonski

grogi wrote: »

Me thinks you actually would faster than you think

It usually takes a few fake clutch presses and one break attempt with left foot; nobody resists that temptation and that is painful. After that you're grand.

I did two feet breaking once.

Not recommended, luckily nobody was behind me at that time (wanted to slow down a bit just before roundabout).

Leonard Hofstadter

wonski wrote: »

I did two feet breaking once.

Not recommended, luckily nobody was behind me at that time (wanted to slow down a bit just before roundabout).

+1, I did left foot braking once when there was no-one around for the craic, it's not something I'll be repeating that's for sure - it nearly sent me through the windscreen!

jca

captainspeed wrote: »

+1, I did left foot braking once when there was no-one around for the craic, it's not something I'll be repeating that's for sure - it nearly sent me through the windscreen!

Mind over matter, it's a hard habit to break but it can be done.

grogi

jca wrote: »

Mind over matter, it's a hard habit to break but it can be done.

Are you referring to the breaking before roundabouts?

Esel

grogi wrote: »

Are you referring to the breaking before roundabouts?

I'd say he's referring to not using 'clutch pressure' when left foot braking.

jca

Esel wrote: »

I'd say he's referring to not using 'clutch pressure' when left foot braking.

Yep.

grogi

jca wrote: »

Yep.

Where is this thread going? No appreciation for quality trolling anymore...

wonski

Are you guys using your left foot for braking?
I found that not using it at all is a benefit.

And it is generally recommended to use right foot only anyway. No?

CalamariFritti

For a long time I only had whatever banger came along or a company car. So I've been driving both over the years and never really cared much either way but always slightly leaning towards automatic. For the last 13 years I'm driving an automatic and couldn't see myself going back.

I think manual is more of a cultural, traditional thing. Not as in our cherished tradition kind of thing obviously, more of a 'but...but, they've always been like this <shockhorror>' kind of tradition. For 99% of us there is no actual point to a manual unless for some reason you just like it; which is fair enough I suppose. But it is clearly an inferior user interface.

CalamariFritti

wonski wrote: »

Are you guys using your left foot for braking?
I found that not using it at all is a benefit.

And it is generally recommended to use right foot only anyway. No?

No and Yes.

I tried braking with my left once and it turned out I had no feel for it whatsoever in my left leg. I might try to slow down just a little, say coming to a set of red lights or so, and end up doing nearly a full slam stop.

jca

wonski wrote: »

Are you guys using your left foot for braking?
I found that not using it at all is a benefit.

And it is generally recommended to use right foot only anyway. No?

No I drive several different vehicles so I stick to right foot braking when driving the auto. If I drove the auto only, then I'd consider doing left foot braking.

CalamariFritti

I think what doesn't help with the acceptance of automatic is that there still is some sort of two tier driver license. A 'lesser' drivers license for automatic only and a 'proper' license for everything. I think that's to a great deal where the notion of automatic drivers not being 'full' drivers comes from.

sunnysoutheast

CalamariFritti wrote: »

No and Yes.

I tried braking with my left once and it turned out I had no feel for it whatsoever in my left leg. I might try to slow down just a little, say coming to a set of red lights or so, and end up doing nearly a full slam stop.

It's worth persevering with it if you only ever drive autos. I actually prefer it now.

If you switch between manual and auto I'd leave it as right leg only to avoid the clutch/brake confusion.

Esel

wonski wrote: »

Are you guys using your left foot for braking?
I found that not using it at all is a benefit.

And it is generally recommended to use right foot only anyway. No?

Yes. Faster reaction time, as in the city I have my left foot resting on the brake pedal (no pressure, obviously). You have to train yourself to let the accelerator pedal up.

Right foot braking is probably more foolproof for the average driver, and probably the better technique if you regularly switch between automatic and manual.

goz83

I drive an auto. It's easier on my back and was a necessity for me after an injury. I drive manuals too and have no preference. Pros and cons to both. Manuals are more fun and engaging, while autos are more practical and easy to drive.

Left foot breaking in an auto? Are ye actually serious?
Unless ye never intend driving manuals again I can't see it as being anything but a bad idea.

Esel

Augeo wrote: »

Left foot breaking in an auto? Are ye actually serious?
Unless ye never intend driving manuals again I can't see it as being anything but a bad idea.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

ianobrien

Augeo wrote: »

Left foot breaking in an auto? Are ye actually serious?
Unless ye never intend driving manuals again I can't see it as being anything but a bad idea.

I can and do it while driving a manual. It's very handy to steady the car when you barrel into the corner and you have to stay on the power to keep the liftoff oversteer at bay. I have learned that some cars with electronic throttles cut the throttle when the brakes are pressed. That resulted in a change of trousers as once the throttle was cut, the back stepped out in a BIG way. The only cure was off the brakes and back on the power.....

ceadaoin.

grogi wrote: »

For me, the biggest downside of HSD was the lack of changing sound during acceleration. The note of engine gradually getting revs gives 80% of the pleasure from driving.

My car has a Drive Sport setting on the gear selector that replicates those sounds.

I learned to drive in the U.S. and I've only ever driven an automatic, I don't see the point of a manual at all!

ianobrien

ianobrien wrote: »

I can and do it while driving a manual........

Yeah but in a manual you'll still be using your left peg for clutching so it's not as if you are going to get into bad habits.
Also barelling into corners etc etc etc is all well and good but I expect you are talking about your motorsport activities rather than dropping the kids to school or going to Aldi for the shopping.

Esel

Augeo wrote: »

Yeah but in a manual you'll still be using your left peg for clutching so it's not as if you are going to get into bad habits.

What bad habits, exactly?

ianobrien

Augeo wrote: »

Yeah but in a manual you'll still be using your left peg for clutching so it's not as if you are going to get into bad habits.
Also barelling into corners etc etc etc is all well and good but I expect you are talking about your motorsport activities rather than dropping the kids to school or going to Aldi for the shopping.

Nope, you NEVER even think of pressing the clutch in a corner. That's a sure fire way of upsetting the car. In a corner, you should have one foot on the throttle always. Backing off the throttle can result in lift off oversteer. Left foot braking is to settle the car in the corner. I've learned it in a Citroen AX GT I had (690kg, 165 section tyre, 100hp, a very lively tail) and it's now second nature to have either the left foot ready over the brake pedal more for a "just in case".

The last time I had to use it was coming home from Lidl when there was muck spread across a corner.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Augeo wrote: »

Yeah but in a manual you'll still be using your left peg for clutching.

Aarrrrr matey.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Aarrrrr matey.

what?

My point was left foot braking in an auto is a bad habit, we know have chaps discussing the benefits of left foot braking in a manual.

Esel

Esel wrote: »

What bad habits, exactly?

Driving an auto extensively and using your left foot for braking. Try a manual after years of that.

I think you should be able to figure it out.. different but similar.

Esel wrote: »

I remember getting back into an automatic after a few months in a manual (slamming the clutch pedal to the floor). Let's just say I did not think it was possible to brake that hard! :eek:

Sometimes I wonder ...

Esel wrote: »

...........

Right foot braking is probably more foolproof for the average driver, and probably the better technique if you regularly switch between automatic and manual.

ianobrien

....

ianobrien wrote: »

Nope, you NEVER even think of pressing the clutch in a corner..................

I meant you'll be clutching in a manual every time you drive it, not as you're performing you're left foot braking while cornering.

sunnysoutheast

Augeo wrote: »

what?

My point was left foot braking in an auto is a bad habit, we know have chaps discussing the benefits of left foot braking in a manual.

Why is it a bad habit? I've been doing it for years. I have somehow, despite everything, managed to drive manual hire cars without killing anyone and then returned to my blessed auto. I've also had automated manual cars on hire which have needed left foot braking.

Have you ever tried it?

Esel

Augeo wrote: »

Driving an auto extensively and using your left foot for braking. Try a manual after years of that.

I think you should be able to figure it out.. different but similar.

Sometimes I wonder ...

You are just blinkered on this topic. Do some research before you embarrass yourself further.

If I said it was unsafe to drive a car with the indicator stalk on the left after being used to it being on the right, you might say I was nuts. But I think you might agree with me...

jca

Jesus tis getting time to close the aul account when numptys start getting argumentative about automatic cars. Does every thread on boards end the same way? It's like walking into the second piss up after the TUI Congress...

Esel

ianobrien wrote: »

I can and do it while driving a manual. It's very handy to steady the car when you barrel into the corner and you have to stay on the power to keep the liftoff oversteer at bay. I have learned that some cars with electronic throttles cut the throttle when the brakes are pressed. That resulted in a change of trousers as once the throttle was cut, the back stepped out in a BIG way. The only cure was off the brakes and back on the power.....

This, also.

*Kol*

Driving an auto fast is a different style to driving a manual fast as you rely more on the brakes. Though you have to make sure you get to the correct gear as you are braking for a corner, initially you may need a glance at the dash to see which gear you are in. It's no less satisfying, and the good thing is you don't have to take your hands off the steering wheel.