New JC English (disaster)

deiseindublin

political analyst wrote: »

Obviously, it means that, for the students of ASTI members, if the dispute is not resolved, the 90% of JC English will be counted as 100% of the subject.

Confirmed so that the pupils are pawns!

Benicetomonty

Political suicide. Can only hope the govt persist with this sort of lunacy. Union is ultimately a faceless entity, our man Bruton, all too recognisable, will be savaged in January if two thirds of JC students are robbed of 10pc

political analyst

Benicetomonty wrote: »

Political suicide. Can only hope the govt perist with this sort of lunacy. Union is ultimately a faceless entity, our man Bruton, all too recognisable, will be savaged in January if two thirds of JC students are robbed of 10pc

A general election next January?! You're joking! Right?!

Benicetomonty

political analyst wrote: »

A general election next January?! You're joking! Right?!

General election? Who mentioned a general election? The 1st CBA needs to be finished asap. If it isnt done by Christmas, it aint happening, esp since CBA number 2 has to be done by then. So that 10pc or at least 5pc of it is down the toilet in January. At which point Bruton will have to reiterate his decree that 2 thirds of JC pupils will be discriminated against by the NCCA with the endorsement of the goverment. Good luck with that

political analyst

Benicetomonty wrote: »

General election? Who mentioned a general election? The 1st CBA needs to be finished asap. If it isnt done by Christmas, it aint happening, esp since CBA number 2 has to be done by then. So that 10pc or at least 5pc of it is down the toilet in January. At which point Bruton will have to reiterate his decree that 2 thirds of JC pupils will be discriminated against by the NCCA with the endorsement of the goverment. Good luck with that

Apologies.

I wrongly assumed that you were implying that there would be a general election next January.

Discriminating against pupils? Not just politically unpopular but also unconstitutional, i.e. equality and all that.

Jamfa

Benicetomonty wrote: »

General election? Who mentioned a general election? The 1st CBA needs to be finished asap. If it isnt done by Christmas, it aint happening, esp since CBA number 2 has to be done by then. So that 10pc or at least 5pc of it is down the toilet in January. At which point Bruton will have to reiterate his decree that 2 thirds of JC pupils will be discriminated against by the NCCA with the endorsement of the goverment. Good luck with that

It all depends how the issue is presented. The AT which counts for the 10% is part of the SEC grade which is completely assessed by the SEC & state certified & the reason the students won't be doing it will be because their teachers won't administer the AT. Presented like this would make it harder to make Bruton out to be the bad guy.

political analyst

Jamfa wrote: »

It all depends how the issue is presented. The AT which counts for the 10% is part of the SEC grade which is completely assessed by the SEC & state certified & the reason the students won't be doing it will be because their teachers won't administer the AT.

Then why did the ASTI still reject it in the most recent ballot on the JCSA? I cannot help but suspect that the ASTI's action is politically motivated.

The JCSA industrial action is unnecessary. Bruton seems to be more conciliatory than his Labour predecessors.

Jamfa wrote: »

Presented like this would make it harder to make Bruton out to be the bad guy.

It still doesn't excuse the Department from the obligation to have a contingency plan for what happens if the ASTI still refuses to implement the assessment. If there is no such plan, then parents will say to the government and the ASTI: "A plague on both your houses!"

clunked

political analyst wrote: »

The JCSA industrial action is unnecessary. Bruton seems to be more conciliatory than his Labour predecessors.
!"

I don't think Bruton is the problem. I'd say that the problem is more so in the leadership of the Department. Ministers may come and go but the Permanent government are the ones with the egos

Jamfa

political analyst wrote: »

Then why did the ASTI still reject it in the most recent ballot on the JCSA? I cannot help but suspect that the ASTI's action is politically motivated.

The JCSA industrial action is unnecessary. Bruton seems to be more conciliatory than his Labour predecessors.

It still doesn't excuse the Department from the obligation to have a contingency plan for what happens if the ASTI still refuses to implement the assessment. If there is no such plan, then parents will say to the government and the ASTI: "A plague on both your houses!"

I agree & provision could be put in place for the assessment to take place even in June as part of the final exam.
It's not even an award now as it's now known as the JCPA - profile of achievement.

political analyst

clunked wrote: »

I don't think Bruton is the problem. I'd say that the problem is more so in the leadership of the Department. Ministers may come and go but the Permanent government are the ones with the egos

Civil servants are supposed to be impartial. If the minister issues an instruction they have to obey it.

evolving_doors

political analyst wrote: »

Civil servants are supposed to be impartial. If the minister issues an instruction they have to obey it.

Who does the minister take advice from then?

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

Civil servants are supposed to be impartial. If the minister issues an instruction they have to obey it.

Most ministers tend to go along with the chief civil servants in their department, they're called the permanent government by politicians themselves - and that's their experience speaking. It's only really in Health as far as I can see that ministers tend to do solo runs without the mandarins' backing.

political analyst

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Who does the minister take advice from then?

Advice is advice, not an instruction. At the end of the day, it's up to the recipient of the advice to decide whether or not to adhere to it.

political analyst

Why are the civil servants hell bent on defeating the ASTI on the issue of JC assessment? Why not just accept the ASTI's position on that issue and then continue resisting the ASTI on the other issues that are subject to industrial action?

What is at the root of anti-teacher sentiment in the Department?

coillsaille

political analyst wrote: »

What is at the root of anti-teacher sentiment in the Department?

Now that is a question I have often pondered upon..

deiseindublin

June, July and August?

implausible

Jamfa wrote:

It all depends how the issue is presented. The AT which counts for the 10% is part of the SEC grade which is completely assessed by the SEC & state certified & the reason the students won't be doing it will be because their teachers won't administer the AT. Presented like this would make it harder to make Bruton out to be the bad guy.

You're probably right.

And, outside of education circles, nobody will care until the sh*t hits the fan when the results of the state exam come out in September and there is a difference between schools' results in English.

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

You're probably right.

And, outside of education circles, nobody will care until the sh*t hits the fan when the results of the state exam come out in September and there is a difference between schools' results in English.

I don't think that the students' parents are "outside of education circles". Parents will not want it to get that far.

implausible

political analyst wrote:

I don't think that the students' parents are "outside of education circles". Parents will not want it to get that far.

A lot of parents are unaware of what's going on and there's an impression that ASTI teachers aren't teaching the new JC at all. It's 10% in one low-stakes exam in one subject that is part of a new curriculum people are unfamiliar with.

A big difference in exam results between schools across the country though? Now that's news.

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

A lot of parents are unaware of what's going on and there's an impression that ASTI teachers aren't teaching the new JC at all. It's 10% in one low-stakes exam in one subject that is part of a new curriculum people are unfamiliar with.

A big difference in exam results between schools across the country though? Now that's news.

Then why don't the principals make the parents aware of what's going on?

Jamfa

The JMB have a letter for schools to send out but my Principal thought it might make things worse. All the 3rd years in my school are doing the Oral Communication CBA this week but they won't receive an official Descriptor grade and there won't be a SLAR meeting. All the 3rd years have a Collection of their texts too but as the teachers won't administer the AT, at present, it would appear the students will lose the 10% available.
It does seem contradictory for teachers to say that they won't assess the two classroom-based based non-state certified CBAs but in December the 3rd years will sit house exams/classroom-based assessments which will be set, marked and reported by the teachers!

political analyst

I believe that the ASTI is simply using the Junior Cycle English AT as a stick to beat the Department as revenge for pay-cuts even if the two issues are not officially linked.

political analyst

This is what "man no plan" said in post 33.

Info on TUI website.

The State Examinations Commission has confirmed that in the event that an AT is not submitted to the SEC for marking, the student, if s/he sits the June examination, will be marked out of 90%, as opposed to 100%, of the marks.

My head isn't working when I read that. It seems that the students in ASTI schools are still able to get full marks in that case?

Surely, being marked out of 90% would work like this:

If there are 200 marks in total to be got in Junior Cycle English, and students in voluntary schools and those taught by ASTI members in community and comprehensive schools can't sit the school-based assessment, which is worth 20 marks, then the written exams, which is worth 180 marks, will be regarded as 100% of the marks for those students who can't sit the assessment, while the students in vocational schools and those taught by TUI members and non-union teachers in community and comprehensive schools will sit the assessment and thus have the 200 marks regarded as 100% of the marks.

All in all, it sounds workable.

political analyst

Jamfa wrote: »

The JMB have a letter for schools to send out but my Principal thought it might make things worse. All the 3rd years in my school are doing the Oral Communication CBA this week but they won't receive an official Descriptor grade and there won't be a SLAR meeting. All the 3rd years have a Collection of their texts too but as the teachers won't administer the AT, at present, it would appear the students will lose the 10% available.
It does seem contradictory for teachers to say that they won't assess the two classroom-based based non-state certified CBAs but in December the 3rd years will sit house exams/classroom-based assessments which will be set, marked and reported by the teachers!

They'd probably say that the house exams are not part of the formal Junior Cycle assessment.

Jamfa

That's not what the DES/Minister are implying will happen at the moment. If my 3rd years didn't submit the Action Project (60%) in April it doesn't follow that the June exam will be marked as 100% of the available marks. There is a dilemma for the DES in allowing the two CBAs and AT be seen as options going forward and it will be interesting to see if their are consequences resulting from a teacher not completing/administering them. The sooner the DES and ASTI can move on the better but I get the impression that neither intend to move an inch.

political analyst

Jamfa wrote: »

That's not what the DES/Minister are implying will happen at the moment. If my 3rd years didn't submit the Action Project (60%) in April it doesn't follow that the June exam will be marked as 100% of the available marks. There is a dilemma for the DES in allowing the two CBAs and AT be seen as options going forward and it will be interesting to see if their are consequences resulting from a teacher not completing/administering them. The sooner the DES and ASTI can move on the better but I get the impression that neither intend to move an inch.

How is it a dilemma?

Jamfa

political analyst wrote: »

How is it a dilemma?

Cause the TUI members/schools are doing them & the Framework for Junior Cycle hasn't presented them as options. The CBAs & AT are core elements of the JCPA and without them JC reform of assessment is negligible.

political analyst

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/bruton-junior-cycle-students-to-lose-10-unless-reforms-accepted-1.2810380

The ASTI’s opposition to the junior cycle changes stems mainly from its belief that teachers should not have to mark their students’ work for State exams.

Principals, teachers and school management bodies, however, say they are coming under criticism from parents over fears that junior cycle students are set to lose out on marks later this year.

In a notice to ASTI English teachers this week, seen by The Irish Times, the union has told members it is “doubtful” that the Department of Education will allow students to lose these marks.

“Regarding speculation that students will be deprived of 10 per cent of the marks in the subject, this presupposes that those charged with setting and administering the examinations will fail to intervene,” the circular states.

“One imagines that the likelihood of such a dereliction on their part is doubtful. ASTI has called on the Department of Education and Skills together with the State Examinations Commission to clarify the position in order to ease the anxieties of parents, teachers and students that are currently growing in intensity.”

The ASTI is playing Russian roulette with students' academic prospects.

Bruton said that Junior Cycle reform is public policy. That means that the ASTI is acting against democracy by refusing to implement the assessment.

Junior cycle students studying English face two classroom-based assessments, one an oral communications task which was due to have been conducted last May.

Due to the dispute, schools have been given a second chance to complete this by the end of this month. However, the ASTI’s ban remains in place.

Students are due to complete a second classroom-based assessment by early December, which is collection of students’ writing, followed by a written reflection on their learning.

These classroom-based assessments will be marked by teachers themselves and will go towards a new “junior cycle profile of achievement”, which seeks to capture students’ progress across a much broader range of areas. They will be marked by descriptions - such as "met expectations", or "exceeded expectations" - rather than traditional grading.

The written reflection, on the other hand, will be marked externally and is worth 10 per cent of the final written exam.

implausible

political analyst wrote:

The ASTI is playing Russian roulette with students' academic prospects.

Hyperbole much? It's their junior cert, makes no difference to their academic prospects.

political analyst

implausible wrote: »

Hyperbole much? It's their junior cert, makes no difference to their academic prospects.

It decides whether they get to do Higher or Ordinary Level in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving Cert.