Marshals on Sportives

Mercian Pro

First of all, a big thank you to all those who voluntarily help out as marshals on the hundreds of sportives around the country.
Secondly, does anyone know if there are guidelines for Clubs on where marshals should be located and what their duties are? There seems to be great variety in how this is handled ranging from the absolute minimal to having one at every corner (and pothole).
Regarding what they are expected to do, I suppose their main function is to warn cyclists and motorists of dangers at junctions etc but should they also be a bit more proactive in minimising dangers? On the excellent SK Tour of Waterford there were a number of marshals at one tricky junction warning cyclists that there was loose gravel. Surely bringing a yard brush and sweeping away the gravel would have made more sense. At the scene of one of the thankfully few accidents, a marshal warned us again of loose gravel but, had there been a brush in the back of the ambulance, he could have made use of it.
I know Cycling Ireland require risk assessments to be carried out in advance of sportives but I have no idea if they go into this level of detail.

jamesd

There are no guidelines for marshals , we ran a sportive a few weeks ago and when we were putting out the signage we swept away any loose chippings we came across on all routes.

It is hard enough to get marshals for events and I think even harder to get them if we also asked them to sweep the roads , the cycling ireland risk assessment asks the level of risk on the route (low,med or high) and what the organizer has done to reduce it too low.

Weepsie

I felt the same on the Meath Heritage tour years ago as nearly every corner had gravel and it helped in bringing a friend down. Then I thought they may then open themselves up to being liable for any accidents.

seamus

At the end of the day they're providing support on open public roads. Loose gravel and the likes are things you would encounter on that road with or without marshalls. So warning people of loose gravel is a step up. A risk assessment would have questions in regards to the suitability of roads for large numbers of riders or any hazards on the road which you wouldn't normally expect (has part of a road collapsed, are there major roadworks taking place on part of the circuit, etc). Loose gravel is part and parcel of everyday riding so wouldn't be a major concern in a safety assessment unless some exceptional flooding has caused a wash of silt onto a road, for example.

As jamesd says, there are no official guidelines for marshalls, no training courses. They're all volunteers and graciously received, especially as they often come from non-affiliated sources - motorbike marshalls are often part of a local motorcycle club with no real link to the cycling club. So to ask them to bring along half of their garden shed too just in case is pretty cheeky.

jamesd

We used these guys for our sportive - http://www.bikemarshals.ie
Fully trained up and they were excellent.

ford2600

Where do you draw the line?

Are marshalls expected to go to a training session before to be briefed? Who pays for that?

The more you do the more will be expected.

The amount of marshalls on SKT is mental, if people had to pay for them rather than volunteers I wonder how small entery numbers would be owing to cost.

If riders took more personal responsibility then you wouldn't have need 4/5 marshalls on descent into Carrick.

What about gravel washed down from private entrances/minor roads onto route, should that be swept to?

Wishbone Ash

I think the point Mercian Pro is making is that, for individual marshals, it may be safer and easier to sweep gravel from the bend/junction they have been assigned to than spending the day shouting warnings to others.

If I'm marshaling (and if driving to the event), I'll usually throw a yard brush into the car to make life easier for myself.

07Lapierre

Weepsie wrote: »

I felt the same on the Meath Heritage tour years ago as nearly every corner had gravel and it helped in bringing a friend down. Then I thought they may then open themselves up to being liable for any accidents.

I seriously doubt that.

ted1

Mercian Pro wrote: »

First of all, a big thank you to all those who voluntarily help out as marshals on the hundreds of sportives around the country.
Secondly, does anyone know if there are guidelines for Clubs on where marshals should be located and what their duties are? There seems to be great variety in how this is handled ranging from the absolute minimal to having one at every corner (and pothole).
Regarding what they are expected to do, I suppose their main function is to warn cyclists and motorists of dangers at junctions etc but should they also be a bit more proactive in minimising dangers? On the excellent SK Tour of Waterford there were a number of marshals at one tricky junction warning cyclists that there was loose gravel. Surely bringing a yard brush and sweeping away the gravel would have made more sense. At the scene of one of the thankfully few accidents, a marshal warned us again of loose gravel but, had there been a brush in the back of the ambulance, he could have made use of it.
I know Cycling Ireland require risk assessments to be carried out in advance of sportives but I have no idea if they go into this level of detail.

If they tried to sweep it but left some behind they then open themselves up with regards liability should something happen

Wishbone Ash

ted1 wrote: »

If they tried to sweep it but left some behind they then open themselves up with regards liability should something happen

So I shouldn't attempt to rescue anyone from a fire/drowning/accident in case I'm held liable if it doesn't succeed?

07Lapierre

ted1 wrote: »

If they tried to sweep it but left some behind they then open themselves up with regards liability should something happen

Is that why debris in cycle lanes is never cleaned? the council are afraid of being sued?

ted1

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

So I shouldn't attempt to rescue anyone from a fire/drowning/accident in case I'm held liable if it doesn't succeed?

Completely different. But there have been cases of people suing rescuers for injuries that occurred during the rescue

07Lapierre

ted1 wrote: »

Completely different. But there have been cases of people suing rescuers for injuries that occurred during the rescue

What was the outcome of the case? were the rescuer's held accountable?

The tax man

The National Championships owes me a sweeping brush. Had to shift that much gravel it broke.

ford2600

The tax man wrote: »

The National Championships owes me a sweeping brush. Had to shift that much gravel it broke.

Amateur hour, should last a skilled workman years:)

07Lapierre

ford2600 wrote: »

Amateur hour, should last a skilled workman years:)

Any excuse to watch this again..

https://youtu.be/BUl6PooveJE

Beasty

If it's under the auspices of CI, there should be a management plan which sets out where marshals will be placed and their responsibilities

There is full guidance on the CI website about organising events

The tax man

ford2600 wrote: »

Amateur hour, should last a skilled workman years:)

I wasn't using it when it broke.

ednwireland

Never sweep corners on a sportive as there's too many.

We did get the council road sweeper on part of our route.which was much appreciated.

I think the cycling ireland plan says that you should marshal right hand junctions. Although dId one last Sunday which basically had about half a dozen

TGD

Gravel is a natural road hazard which can be encountered on any ride. You have to keep an eye out for it, the same as any hazard.

nilhg

Whatever about brushes, it always amazes me that more marshalls don't have track pumps available.

jamesd

nilhg wrote: »

Whatever about brushes, it always amazes me that more marshalls don't have track pumps available.

Are you serious ? Most marshals would not even know what a track pump was, they are normally just people who are either friends / relatives of the club / group organising the event.

nilhg

jamesd wrote: »

Are you serious ? Most marshals would not even know what a track pump was, they are normally just people who are either friends / relatives of the club / group organising the event.

I don't know, I haven't done many this year but I did the tour de foothills, well marshalled by many active Naas CC members, the Orwell Randonee, plenty of Orwell members marshalling there, and the Wicklow 200 where all of the marshalls are members of the IVCA, I've seen a few lads with pumps from time to time, always thought it was a great idea, especially with the amount of lads you see punctured at sportives

Mercian Pro

Weepsie wrote: »

Then I thought they may then open themselves up to being liable for any accidents.

ted1 wrote: »

If they tried to sweep it but left some behind they then open themselves up with regards liability should something happen

No, no, no.

ted1 wrote: »

Completely different. But there have been cases of people suing rescuers for injuries that occurred during the rescue

Ireland finally brought in "Good Samaritan" legislation in 2011.

Beasty wrote: »

If it's under the auspices of CI, there should be a management plan which sets out where marshals will be placed and their responsibilities.
There is full guidance on the CI website about organising events

Thanks Beasty but from looking at it, I wouldn't quite describe it as full. Under Timetable for Event Organiser one of the duties is "to sweep away identified loose debris if practicable". Under Safety Code, "marshals are to be made aware of their roles and responsibilities as outlined in the CI sign on sheet ("...function of the marshal is only to indicate direction"). But, in the sample Risk Assessment there are marshals holding back traffic until the riders pass.
I can't find a copy of the sign in sheet online and never read the small print when signing it but if anyone has a copy and there are further references to marshal's duties I'd be interested in hearing about it.

Certainly for our club races all marshals are asked to bring a brush with them and to sweep their corner clear before racing starts. It's no big deal and doesn't involve bringing the garden shed. I know it's a bit different when marshals aren't club members but it did strike me (and others) on the SK160 that five minutes sweeping would have saved a lot of shouting and greatly reduced the risk.

Chuchote

I wasn't a marshal but was a volunteer on last year's Big Dublin Bike Ride. All volunteers were called to a two- or three-hour session a couple of days before the ride. It was sound, except that the person giving it was referring to "the Friday", "the Monday", etc without making clear exactly which dates he was talking about on each day.
In theory the person organising each set of groups of volunteers was supposed to swap phone numbers with them; in practice, this didn't happen very efficiently with my group, and there wasn't much communication - we ended up phoning the main number with queries on the day, and they sounded swamped.
We didn't have quite basic information that drivers, especially, wanted - what roads were closed off at what times, mainly - and our route map was small and not particularly readable.
One warning: on the day itself, we were told "Go to the toilet now because you won't have another chance"! We were hopping on the spot till we discovered a shop 100 metres away that let us use their staff toilet.
Marshals and volunteers could bring foot pumps with them, but nobody of the thousands who passed me seemed to need one. I'd say the important thing would be to have them at the food stops and in the cars patrolling the route (and for most people to bring a hand pump with them).

ThisRegard

Chuchote wrote: »

It was sound, except that the person giving it was referring to "the Friday", "the Monday", etc without making clear exactly which dates he was talking about on each day.

Am I missing something, it was only over a couple of days so by saying the day, rather than the date, kept things a lot simpler? The dates didn't matter as it was only one 1 Friday, 1 Monday etc.

Chuchote

ThisRegard wrote: »

Am I missing something, it was only over a couple of days so by saying the day, rather than the date, kept things a lot simpler? The dates didn't matter as it was only one 1 Friday, 1 Monday etc.

The talk included material about the weekend before and the weekend of the cycle.

Mercian Pro

At least two corners on the Reservoir Dog today had marshals warning cyclists about loose gravel on the turn. One of them was the very tricky turn off the R114 into Glenasmole. I still feel that it would make more sense to remove the hazard rather than have to warn hundreds of cyclists about its existance.
Overall the standard of signage, road marking and marshalling was excellent as was everything else about this great sportif.

smacl

I thought the marshalling today was great but more importantly the route was brilliant. Part and parcel of this is scenic back roads with little traffic often in disrepair. For me an interesting route beats a good surface and it is up to the individual cyclist to deal with the inevitable lumps bumps and gravel.