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Neighbour Not Paying Management Fees

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  • 26-08-2016 5:20am
    #1
    Antar Bolaeisk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭


    Hi There,

    There's discussion among fellow apartment owners and the management company (self run) regarding an individual apartment owner who has not paid any management fees for the last few years running yet is continually letting out their apartment. Worse still is that they don't care who they let the apartment out to and often repairs have had to be made to the building, most recently a broken window, at our cost. Additionally, they have full use of the bin which again is paid for from the management fees.

    The management company director has been dealing with a solicitor to help out for the last year but it's going absolutely nowhere.

    Has anyone here experienced a similar situation before and, if so were you able to get it resolved or is it something you're still dealing with?


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    #2
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,793 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Has your neighbour a mortgage on the property?

    Has the management company written to the mortgage bank and said that they are going to remove the neighbour and the bank from the list of beneficiaries of the block mortgage scheme?

    This often works to inspire payment I understand.


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    #3
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »
    Hi There,

    There's discussion among fellow apartment owners and the management company (self run) regarding an individual apartment owner who has not paid any management fees for the last few years running yet is continually letting out their apartment. Worse still is that they don't care who they let the apartment out to and often repairs have had to be made to the building, most recently a broken window, at our cost. Additionally, they have full use of the bin which again is paid for from the management fees.

    The management company director has been dealing with a solicitor to help out for the last year but it's going absolutely nowhere.

    Has anyone here experienced a similar situation before and, if so were you able to get it resolved or is it something you're still dealing with?

    Your management company can begin court proceedings against the owner, requirement to pay management fees is included in the contract of sale.

    Also, you can apply for a lean on the property in the amount owing. The outstanding management fees would be deducted from the sale price.

    But your solicitor should really be best placed to advise you on this an to initiate any legal action. If he/she is no good, find another one.


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    #4
    squidgeroo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭squidgeroo


    you really need to go down the solicitor route on this and make sure they act on it. Otherwise what most managed estates have done is to bring in permit parking and only those that have paid are entitled to permits. No permit and they will be clamped. We had to do that in our complex. there will always be unfortunately the couple of units that never pay but they can't sell until it is paid in full.


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    #5
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    What you need to do is lodge a formal charge against the property (a lien) which means the owner is unable to sell the property until it is satisfied- and if the property is mortgaged- the lender is informed of an additional lien being placed on the property.


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    #6
    Antar Bolaeisk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭Antar Bolaeisk


    There's a few people voting in favour of things like parking permits but I think we're past the whole passive aggressive approach with this person. I'll mention to the management company director about the lien and see if it's something they've already considered or not.

    With regards to them letting out the property, is there any way to find out if they're a registered landlord? I've checked on the prtb.ie website but was unable to download the list (maybe I was doing it wrong).
    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Has your neighbour a mortgage on the property?

    Has the management company written to the mortgage bank and said that they are going to remove the neighbour and the bank from the list of beneficiaries of the block mortgage scheme?

    This often works to inspire payment I understand.

    I don't know, they've had the property a while so it might be paid off. What is the block mortgage scheme?


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    #7
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.


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    #8
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    gordongekko wrote: »
    What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

    What? Thats a ridiculous attitude to take. Why should they have to chase down every person individually, and who are you to dictate that you only respond to phonecalls?

    When you buy a property thats part of a Multi Unit Development, you are liable for your management fees. Its not being bullied in your own home, its paying what you owe.


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    #9
    cruizer101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    gordongekko wrote: »
    What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

    So you didn't pay a bill that you knew you had to pay and when you received a letter following up on this you percieved it as bullying. No wonder so many apartments end up having to resort to clamping.


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    #10
    starshine1234
    Registered Users Posts: 305 ✭✭starshine1234


    Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »
    I've checked on the prtb.ie website but was unable to download the list (maybe I was doing it wrong).

    I've tried to download lists from them as well and it was very difficult.

    I can't remember exactly what the problem was but I was able to get the list in the end. I downloaded an .xls list.

    Keep trying for the list. The system is very bad but it does work in the end. Finding a person or an address on the list can be very hard as there is no consistency, addresses are all over the place, and people can use the Irish language etc for their addresses.

    It really is a terrible system.


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    #11
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »
    Has anyone here experienced a similar situation before and, if so were you able to get it resolved or is it something you're still dealing with?

    Shortly after I moved into my current apartment the management company disabled all the key fobs and issued new ones to the owners who were fully paid up.


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    #12
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,793 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

    I don't know, they've had the property a while so it might be paid off. What is the block mortgage scheme?

    Sorry, the block insurance scheme is what I meant to say. It is the insurance that covers the development as a whole. The mortgage company will be listed as having an interest in the policy. If they are told that they are being removed they will be upset. The insurance broker will be able to tell the company directors if there is a bank listed as having an interest in relation to that particular unit.

    You really are going to have to get legal advice on this at some stage. You need a solicitor who has experience doing this particular thing.

    It may well be that finding a way to have a nice chat would be better than taking legal action. There might be some problem, real or perceived that you don't know about.


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    #13
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    SarahMollie wrote: »
    What? Thats a ridiculous attitude to take. Why should they have to chase down every person individually, and who are you to dictate that you only respond to phonecalls?

    When you buy a property thats part of a Multi Unit Development, you are liable for your management fees. Its not being bullied in your own home, its paying what you owe.

    What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.


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    #14
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    gordongekko wrote: »
    What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

    Hoping they'll forget about it more like...


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    #15
    squidgeroo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭squidgeroo


    gordongekko wrote: »
    What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

    Seriously, you know you have an annual bill to pay - why don't you just pay it without getting stroppy about the whole thing. You get the same bill every year!!! The bill must have got lost somewhere - how about you ringing up to find out what happened and solving the 'issue' without throwing your toys out of the pram. no wonder complexes have problems with attitudes like that.


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    #16
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    gordongekko wrote: »
    What part of I don't have a bill are you not understanding. I have a letter from a solicitor but no bill. I'm not paying it without a bill. I don't respond to threats in my own home. A quick phone call or follow up letter would resolve it. I'm aware I owe the money and when I've a bill I'll pay it.

    I understand perfectly, but what I don't get is why you think a bill getting lost in the post or whatever give you the right to be so petulant?

    Management companies are run by a board of directors who are typically your neighbours who volunteer their time for the good of the development. Also, chasing debts costs money, so attitudes like yours actually contribute to the costs that everyone incurs. That solicitor didnt write that letter for free, yet you see fit to throw it in the bin. What was stopping you putting in a call to the Management Agent to inquire when your fees were due?

    Also, even if you didn't get the bill, you would have been sent a statement of accounts in a previous correspondence (or have online access) and the minutes from the preceding AGM which would also spell out what the fees would be and when they'd be due.


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    #17
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.


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    #18
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gordongekko wrote: »
    What happened when the management company rang up looking for payment. I know it happened me before that I hadn't gotten a bill but then a solicitors letter arrived. It went straight in the bin. I for one won't be bullied in my own home. It remained unpaid until they rang up looking for the money.

    it went straight into the bin and from the bin into the shed
    and from the shed into a truck paid for by your neighbours just because you
    didn't get your special call!! how do you not fall down more often with huge burdened brain of yours!


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    #19
    squidgeroo
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭squidgeroo


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

    Gosh it is like dealing with a teenager. Make the call yourself and grow up!!


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    #20
    SarahMollie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,843 ✭✭✭SarahMollie


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

    Yes and they review said fee based on the costs the incur in administering said estate the previous year. If everyone had your attitude then fees would certainly rise.

    I'm a director on my management company so I know very well how these things work. People like you do cause extra work for the volunteer directors, as the MA have to run everything by the board before they act.

    And make no mistake, the solicitors letter needed to be paid for, so thats a direct cost to the Management Agent which will get passed on to the management company.

    There was no justifiable reason for you to ignore the solicitors letter, and not to simply be a grown up and phone the MA if it is simply an administrative error, like an adult.


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    #21
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    It's hard to believe the stance people sometimes take when the effect actually is detrimental to themselves. Increased management company costs means increased subscriptions for muppets who cause the costs to rise by not paying their subscriptions or claiming they never got the bill, years of experience should tell even the dimmest bell ever to ring that a subscription is due. Go figure.


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    #22
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,903 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    gordongekko wrote: »
    Management agents are paid a fee for the administration function of the estate management. I didn't receive a bill. Have paid in full and on time for the last 14 yrs. I didn't get a bill this year so first course off action was to waste money on a solicitor letter instead of a quick call to see what happened. That bill will remain unpaid until that call comes.

    This is a quick way to find a charge on your property and costs found against you. Your fault entirely then.


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    #23
    gordongekko
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭gordongekko


    SarahMollie wrote: »
    Yes and they review said fee based on the costs the incur in administering said estate the previous year. If everyone had your attitude then fees would certainly rise.

    I'm a director on my management company so I know very well how these things work. People like you do cause extra work for the volunteer directors, as the MA have to run everything by the board before they act.

    And make no mistake, the solicitors letter needed to be paid for, so thats a direct cost to the Management Agent which will get passed on to the management company.

    There was no justifiable reason for you to ignore the solicitors letter, and not to simply be a grown up and phone the MA if it is simply an administrative error, like an adult.

    The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.


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    #24
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    gordongekko wrote: »
    The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

    Did you actually need to be reminded?


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    #25
    c montgomery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    Back on topic for OP

    I'm a director of a management company and we have had thus issue many times in the past.

    We have a payback system in place. Pay before March 1st or arrange payment plan get 10% credit the following year. After this date a 1%levy is added per month to non paying owners until they pay.
    This results in most paying before march 1st.

    We had one who didn't pay for 4 years but then needed the management companies help on an issue so paid.
    Another did not pay for 9 years, property was rented all the time. Property was sold last year and we recovered all the money plus levy.

    In all cases we sent multiple solicitors letters but I'm sure they didn't care.
    It's only when they need your help or the property is being sold that you'll get your money.

    You should not have to pay for Windows in a private apartment, only shared spaces.


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    #26
    c montgomery
    Registered Users Posts: 2,122 ✭✭✭c montgomery


    gordongekko wrote: »
    The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

    Maybe the reminder letter went to the same place as the original bill.

    Do you not attend management Co. Meetings?


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    #27
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    We employ multiple approaches.

    Those who pay upfront or by standing order each year get a 10% reduction.
    Those who fall behind or do not have a standing order get no reduction.
    Those who fall more than 1 year behind have access to the common area/parking denied, and no parking permit so are clamped in the common parking area.
    Those who fall more than 2 years behind, with no engagement to pay get a solicitor's letter.
    If no response within 2 months, after a reminder solicitor's letter, we begin court proceedings.
    To date, all cases that have gone fully legal and to court we have won.

    Year on year, we have over 90% who pay up front or by standing order.
    In total, our income to budget is approx 98% even considering those in arrears.

    In the end, they all pay. No way around it.

    Oh, and anyone who gets a solicitor's letter, the charge for the solicitor goes on their fees, as well as interest on late payment of fees, as set out in the Lease Contract everyone signs when they buy a property.


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    #28
    MackMack
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭MackMack


    How are they renting out their apartment? AirBnB or some other letting agency? Is it short term or long term renting?

    More importantly if you want to really go nuclear on him ring Revenue to see if he has paid taxes on his rental income. Or just inform them the apartment is being rented out as they probably won't tell you if he is paying taxes on it.

    If you don't want to go that far yet a threat to inform Revenue of it if he doesn't pay up might work.


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    #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gordongekko wrote: »
    The nuclear option after I missed payment is not an acceptable way to do business. A quick phone call or a reminder letter would easily have resolved the issue.

    Why are you even waiting for a bill, you pay it every year and I assume its the same amount so why were you not just paying it without being asked.

    I'm surprised you even get a bill, I would have assumed its just something people know to pay themselves every year. You are being awkward for the sake of it and deserved to be slapped with extra charges.


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    #30
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Kenna Better Oxygen wrote: »
    Why are you even waiting for a bill, you pay it every year and I assume its the same amount so why were you not just paying it without being asked.

    I'm surprised you even get a bill, I would have assumed its just something people know to pay themselves every year.

    In many cases, fees do change from year to year. Up a little, down a little, up a little, etc, depending on costs, the biggest being insurance. Insurance claims drive up fees, while no fees can bring a drop in fees.

    But, overall, fees would tend to be similar year on year.

    I still don't agree with the poster's stance, but either way, they will pay, as well as pay for the cost of the solicitor's letter, etc.


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    #31
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    Antar,

    I would be concerned that anyone other than the directors and agent has knowledge of non payers. That's a breach of data protection and the directors could face action against them on this matter.

    The omc should not of made any repair on that unit where it didn't affect another unit VB if fees were unpaid. Windows as per the lease are nearly always the unit owners responsibility unless it was common area sections. Spending company money on private individuals property is at best negligent and at worst fraud and mis appropriation of company money.

    The directors need to toughen up and apply the lease in any way possible to restrict services. Letters to revenue and prtb may help but are a long shot.

    Removing access to a common entrance by changing locks is far more effective.


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